Paying for type-rating.

[scraglad]

I know its the way of the aviation world now for most companys to get their pilots to pay for their type-ratings.


How did this all come about in the first place????

Why dont people just refuse point blank to pay???

I dont know about other pilots,but as for me,I wont be able to afford a type-rating when I finish my training.

Airlines need pilots,right??? So if pilots refuse to pay then the airline cant opperate,right???

BALPA have predicted that a pilot shortage will occur within the next couple of years so are the airlines going to ask pilots for a fee???

It really angers me the pilots who agree to pay for their type-rating as the airlines have a taste for it now and will continue to do this.
Anyone else agree??

[Wino]

I have never paid for a type rating in my life and don't suggest than anyone else pay for one either.

The required training you have to go through as a new hire would be the same either way, so you are just pissing your money away

Cheers
Wino

[victor two]

I think the idea of getting pilots to fund their own ratings is wrong also but I am sure that there are lots of pilots who paid the dollars and got the job from it and moved on without regrets. Airlines are just big corporations, training costs are high and pilots can be replaced easily enough as so many are out there fighting for that jet job. Many are so desperate to get into the industry that they pay for the rating on the bet that it will get them into a cockpit. I think it's a product of the new low cost mentality that all airlines are adopting. If they can save any money anywhere, they take it. I would describe it as bordering on exploitation of employees.

What if you are highly motivated and fit, have the basic quals and simply can not afford to fork out for the type rating? Potentially you have lost a lot of job prospects and I don't think that is fair.

Doesn't seem to stop pilots from parting with their money but like lots of other things in the industry, it's wrong and it's a trend that is going to be here for a long time to come.

[WestWind1950]

BALPA have predicted that a pilot shortage will occur within the next couple of years so are the airlines going to ask pilots for a fee???

I've heard that's already happening. Some airline or company has offered pilots to fly for at least a year, without pay, making it possible for them to collect hours. And no guarantee of being able to continue to fly after that first year. Of course not!! They then go find another wannabee willing to fly without pay for a year! :mad:

Westy

[anoxic]

I think he said "for a fee" not "for free"

[dmmd]

Everyone wants to pay less when they go on holiday, I know because I do as well. How can an airline provide cheaper tickets without cutting cost in some areas of the business. Running cost are always on the increase and so is fuel especially with what is going on in the gulf at the moment.

Paying for your own type rating is the way forward for airlines, as long as safety is not compromised what's the problem. You chaps not willing to find the cash better be careful you don't get left behind and in 10 years time you are still on pprune whining how the world has done you wrong.

This is not meant personally to anyone and no offence was intended. Good luck in finding something.

[df1]

I agree with dmmd.

What if you are highly motivated and fit, have the basic quals and simply can not afford to fork out for the type rating? Potentially you have lost a lot of job prospects and I don't think that is fair.

Well, just like any other industry, you prospects are related to your employablility. Your employablility is directly related to your experience and qualifications. The better they are the better your chance (unless you have another trick up your sleeve!!). If you have to invest in "further" training (just like you did with getting a CPL in the first place!) then so be it.


I have never paid for a type rating in my life and don't suggest than anyone else pay for one either.

This may be so, but what if you were just completing now and having a type rating meant the difference between getting a job and not - would you invest?? No? Fine 'cos someone else has/will!

I don't advocate anyone running up a debt on what is effectively a huge gamble but if it were a business that you were running you might have to make similar sacrifices to be ahead of the competition! Being an employable pilot is no different - you make commercial decisions as you always have with your training and always will with your career! The airline market finds it's level. If there are, as some of you say, a large pool of pilots at their disposal thay can afford to be picky. Picky might mean having 10,000 hrs PIC or it could mean a type rating - picky is in the eye of the beholder.

I was told that many moons ago even paying for your own flight training was was a "taboo". In any case our industry has changed - and so should we. But, if you can avoid paying for a type rating then well done that man/woman!

df1

[daw]

You can't help but see a certain sense in what the airlines are doing by passing the so called "training risk" back to the wannabee pilot. I often wonder whether the big dissenters here on pprune are those that either don't have the money, are trying to get off turbo props with thousands of hours or were priviledged enough to get all of their training paid for courtesy of HM/the taxpayer (ie: me). Anyway I am keeping an open mind for when the time comes that is for sure. I am not going to be one of those being left behind.

[WestWind1950]

I think he said "for a fee" not "for free"

sorry, I did read wrong (was too early in the morning). But still, I don't think it's right to fly for someone without pay! And I've been told that that's being done!

It used to be that type ratings were financed with deductions from the paycheck...
I often ask myself where a new wannabee now-a-days gets the cash to pay for training or type ratings, unless they come from a rich family.

(no, I'm not a wannabee myself.... I just know the business for many years).

Westy

[Astra driver]

DF1;

I think you hit the nail right on the head with your comments, I have not yet paid for a type rating, but I must admit that I would not hesitate to pay up front if it meant the difference between getting a job or not.

It is interesting to note that Southwest Airlines has, for as long as I have known, required it's new hires to get a 737 type as a pre-condition of employment. We all know that Southwest has never had a problem finding enough pilots.

It's a somewhat sad state of affairs, but it merely reflects the fact that there are more pilots out there than there are jobs, we simply have to do whatever is neccesary to make ourselves more marketable than our competition.

[Phileas Fogg]

Scraglad,
There is always a choice, namely 'take it or leave it'.

The aviation industry doesn't owe you a single damn thing, you say you're angry, oh bless you!

You say you can't afford a type rating, then perhaps you should go away for a few years, get a proper job, save up, buy a house then remortgage it, whatever you need to do to find the funds.

Once you've got those funds the career advancement it will give you will pay you back 15-fold over the course of your career.

Of course we'd all like the higher paid professions whilst someone else pays for the initial outlay but life ain't that perfect.

After 25 years in this industry I'm now comfortable but, by christ, I've been through some hard times. You want the best paid job, then make the required effort and stop whining.

[scraglad]

Phileas fogg,

your 25 years in this industry and I bet my arms and legs you never paid for your initial training no mind your type-rating(s). And yes,it angers me that we do now have to pay for a type-rating,as ive said,airlines need pilots and with out us,they dont operate.


As for my job,its people like me that make it happen for you,im a ground worker at Dub airport.

So old boy,I suggest you hang up your hat and give us younger more enthuastic pilots a chance because by the sounds of you, you dont appreciate how easy you have had it.

[typhoonpilot]

scraglad:

I agree with you 100 percent. If EVERYONE had your attitude and refused to pay for a type rating then the airlines would have no choice but to foot the bill. But as you can see from the comments so far there are many who are willing to whore themselves out to pursue their chosen vocation. It is really sad, there is no reason we should ever have to pay for training beyond the ATPL.

Typhoonpilot

[Phileas Fogg]

Scraglad,
I never said I was a pilot!

What people need to realise is that it is the European Union now, if you suggest a 'call to arms' then it's going to take the whole EU to unite together, all they've done until now is fight with each other!

Furthermore, if the airlines can't source 'suitably qualified' pilots from within the EU then they may be able to justify bringing pilots in from outside the EU.

If you can't afford a type rating then you can't afford it thus you're likely to continue your arguments against but these are the facts of life, you don't want the type rating then there will always be a long queue that do.

You talk about the airlines needing 'us' (you) pilots, the airlines need commercial pilots. just because you may have an ATPL does not make you a commercial pilot, you need to get an 'in' first to be one of the so called 'us'!

[yyzdub]

How do you see paying for a type rating as being any different than paying for your ATPL's, Instrument rating, etc or simply NOT investing in your own future.

It's not an ideal situation where a pilot as to pay for a type rating and I for one, certainly don't want to do it but if it means the difference between a job and not having one, I take the job.

Forking out the money only furthers your career - at least if you have a conditional offer of employment I can't really understand those who go out and get a TR without any conditional offers, however I see no problem with those who are in a programme through the likes of Ryanair or Air Asia. How could you fault these people - they have the same passion as everyone else in the industry they are just fortunate to have access to the necessary funding.

Should paying for a TR have been the norm from the start there would not be an issue here. What if up until a few years ago carriers would pay for your ATPL studying or IR, would everyone here be of the mindset that we are "whoring" ourselves off by paying for these now?

Paying for TR adds to YOUR qualifications and resume not the airlines. It will help you in the future, not the airline. It will be an added benefit to you when you are leaving one company for another with a necessary TR. The whole thing comes full circle. As mentioned in a previous post here, by charging pilots for a TR allows for lower costs offered from the carrier to the end consumer.

I think, and understandably so, a lot of the resentment of paying for a type rating comes from those who are well qualified but do not have access to the money. Should this be the case then I agree 100% however if it is of the belief that we are "whoring" ourselves off - get real. By already paying an absorbant amount of money to get yourself to an ATPL level, how is it any different paying for a TR - other than the cost????

Don't get down on those willing to do whatever it takes to get a job - would it be any different in any other industry? Next thing you know people will be whining and winging about those who have contacts or know someone who knows someone in a carrier that can help them get a job - "wah wah wah, I don't know anyone and it's not fair b/c I have the qualifications and experience but someone less qualified than me got the job because he/she knows someone in the airline..."

[dmmd]

Well said yyzdub.

[df1]

typhoonpilot,

You use strong words! I think the term "whore themselves out" is quite inappropriate. I can see your frustrations though!

It's not fair for me to comment about what your financial situation may be suffice to say that funding your own type rating is extremely expensive (turbojet). You [we] do face a problem here though which is competition. Now, if like you say, pilots were able to club together and boycott the airlines by not type rating this may well have the effect of causing a shift in the prerequistes. Don't you think this is an extreme measure though? And how would it be administered? Just how, exactly, could we get an entire community - aready desperate to get their feet on the ladder - to agree not to out-do a fellow applicant by not paying for some additional "training". In fact, why not go one step further and everbody refuse to fund their CPL/ATPL training and get the airlines to do it properly from start to finish? The answer is it won't happen!

These are my thoughts and there is no ruling - for or against - paying for a type rating (or even buying the aircraft if you're really desperate/rich) in order to enhance your chances. What is for sure though is that airlines are experts at what they want and we have to accept this. If an airline is prepared to type-rate you they may even prefer that you don't have a rating on that type at all. On the other hand they may stipulate one as a prerequisite. What we see now is a case of newly qualified pilots investing in "further education" in order to enhance their chances.

Make sure you are not left behind. Don't get one if you don't need to. Do if you do!

df1

[bluefalcon]

If this world had to be the way we want it in terms of not paying for a TR etc, then we shouldnt have even started by paying for the pilot training in a beginning. Why on earth do you get scholarships on almost all degrees or careers if you are good and capable for so and there is no way of getting it on this profession ( unless military).
We started paying to get inside an airline since day one of our CPL course, whether you pay more or less, instructor course, hours in the US or a TR it comes out to be the same but only more or less money spent. Its the same as getting a degree in something and then getting a master on it, only that in this world and in these times unlike other careers WE have to pay for it. What im trying to say is that if we want airlines to pay for us for the TR we might as well want them to pay for our pilot training course too.
In some countries in Asia they recruit you when you finish school, after passing certain levels of profficiency in some subjects and prooving your will and capability of becoming a good learner, they then pay for your entire career from day1 until you are sitting on the right seat of their company( problem is you have to be national from their country). So why dont we fight for that?
To start to criticize anyone who has payed for their TR etc, better start by bringing up why should we pay for a pilot training career, Spend up to 45000 quid or more in a career, which I find that amount of money embarrasing, and you have done it, we have all done it, even the ones who are really capable and good in this, also paid for it. So what on earth is the difference of paying more for a TR , instructor license, hours in the US, or whatever if we agreed to enter in this unfair and uncertain cycle since we started paying.
The bottom end is we all want to get hired asap, fulfil our dream and forget about this struggle to get in.
Softbutter landings to all and the best of luck! ;)

[Anne.Nonymous]

I think there are two issues here.

First you get yourself qualified with an CPL/ATPL and then the hours/ experience. That is the same as any other profession.

However, in my experience the actual type rating becomes very specific to the idividual airline. An Airbus or 737 rating is fine and shows your commitment but that is all. You will still need to get an LPC/OPC from the airline you are joining. The airline is required to ensure the standard of their pilot training.

Where do you stop? If the airline has another aircraft type and you would like to transfer, are you going to pay for yet another rating? Do you go for a bigger aircraft - ATR - 737 - A321 - 767 - A330?

I have been fortunate not to have to pay for any of my type ratings but I do know the airline I work for made a small fortune from selling ratings with the faint whiff of a job offer at the end of the line - and then creamed off the top two or three that they wanted.

All went away £10,500 poorer but out of forty plus trainees three got a job. Given their previous experience (1 ex-mil and two turbo-prop captains) they would have probably got a job anyway.

Keep the money and build the hours as best you can.

Anne :O

[df1]

I agree Anne.

Another point to consider (sorry to state the obvious) is that although having a type rating, for all intents and purposes, is quite something on a C.V, having hours on type is quite another thing. But, this brings us back to what the airlines themselves require.

Personally, I think there are many things that an indivudual can do to promote their chances of employment. Having worked in a recruiment field myself I expect that a good many pilots (with or without type specific) would benefit from some good selection process knowledge (not to sound condescending).

As food for thought why not consider the merits of this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=148400) thread as it could be just as promising but almost certainly cheaper than a type rating!!

df1

[Phileas Fogg]

Df1,
As an employer I like to see what hours you have on type and that will include a type rating.
The more you dress your CV to disguise such a fact only serves to annoy the person reading it.

[df1]

Phileas,

I was not intimating at creative C.V work nor disguising ones qualifications or lack of them. What I was thinking was that some may have forgotten the basics of job application and selection process. In essence I am saying that if a type rating is an absolute prerequisite then that's it! I've also said that I think a type rating is becoming an increasingly common "self-fund" exercise, albeit with pitfalls. But, maybe there are some who would benefit from a better understanding of selection processes. You're right, this has little or nothing to do with type-ratings but everything to do with getting invited to a selection in the first place. No dressing of C.V's no disguising of experience just a good, confident knowledge of what to prepare for and what to expect. Then maybe one won't need to buy a type rating at all!

cheers

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Can't help agreeing with yyzdub, however, I also appreciate other peoples principles.

It would be interesting to hear of other people who have been successful in securing a job after a self funded type rating. I know of one person myself who has managed it, are there anymore out there who would like to share their experiences?

[347.5]

Speaking as someone who had to fork out 23,000 for a type rating having already flown some 1000 hours biz jet before, I can only advise the following.

If you don't do it, some-one else will. It's nice to know we can rely on our compatriots out there eh?? There are plenty of Kiwis and Ozzies out there who are willing to come to the UK due to lack of flying opportunities at home. With the expansion of the EU, we also face the prospect of former eastern block country pilots willing to work for less than the home grown talent.

I personally think that it's disgusting that you pay for the ATPL, gambling everything without any guarantee of a job to find that you have to find another phenomenal amount of cash or face life in limbo. I'm particularly annoyed having already had a Jet Type rating, however I had to look to the future and this was the only way for me.

Was it worth it? well i now getting spoken to like s**t by jumped up wotnot's in crewing (even if they are ringing up for a favour, I'm ameniable to them as i understand they have a difficult job and sometimes have to deal with self important flight deck) get called the driver by passengers, have no social life, and due to the fun police - now face been locked in a small, loud unclean cockpit for 10 hours a day. Yes it was.

For all that, financially it will never be worth it (having given up a reasonably well paid job and will never recoup what I have paid out or lost in terms of salary) I get to fly jets for a living. and to me that's what it's all about.

I'd just advise that you get an offer in place with an airline before embarking on a type rating. Because for all the hard graft of getting that jet on your licence, there are still people in HR who think that just because you can't build a lego tower, you can't get on with people or fly jets. What B*****ks

live the dream:ok:

[AIRWAY]

Hello,

My opinion, and mine only: I will not pay for a type rating, if im not sucessfull in getting a job without a Type Rating, then i will pay for one.

Regards

[jamestkirk]

my god this is a touchy subject. I am emotionally drained after reading the points made. the tears are just drying

Someone said that there should be a pilot shortage in two years or so. Like to know where that information has come from, as i have been hearing it for the last 2 years.

If that shortage does happen, then the type rating issue may change, due to the supply and demand moving in our favour. It's just sh@t at the moment.

I am an early 30's F/ATPL who gave up that good job and house etc to train.

On a generic note of career opportunities. It is wrong to expect an employee in any field to spend large sums of money for the pleasure of working for a company. Yes, I know that some of you may say the airline world is different, but that is my point; it should'nt be.

There is not a huge amount we can do but wait for the indusrty to change (hopefully short term). Then, those of us who have a little inititiative, maximise that change with employers at the recruitment stage. It will then be US who can have a degree of control.

Sounds a little 'rose coloured specs' i know, but who knows.

I am doing a job that sucks the life from me at the moment. Purely to pay the bills until a flying job comes up. Some of you I know are in the same boat.

If through all this plethora of dispair, we all stay sane, then good for us. I tell people what ist's like to be looking for a job, the amount of CV's sent etc. and they cannot believe or understand it.

Just goes to show we pilots are top drawer kind of characters.

One day, we will be wearing uniform. Speaking to pax in that confident, polite but slightly pretentious way. May get some heavy petting on the side from your chosen girl/bloke or a combination of the two.

And above all, flying.

Like you, I just hate hanging around for that day.

JTK

[spaceman1000]

hello,

this pilot shortage story exist for years (probably from after 1985).

I would prefer to have a boring job than no job at all!

Please, please, please.if you are considering to be a pilot. do something else!

[African Drunk]

Just a thought, one airline said to some pilots buy a type rating with us you should get a job. Then when they had finished they were not given jobs as the airline had found pilots to pay for type rating and 100 hours. Did these get jobs? no as the airline has now found new pilots who will pay for 500 hours on type.

What a great profession we happily stab each other in the back because " we need to start paying our loan" or other excuses. It would be refreshing if we all said no to paying and let ourselves get selected on merit.

Most of you don't remember the situation in the states where airlines made you pay for every hour you flew as a FO. I have a job and it took time, effort and flying in three continents but I think you wannabes are taken advantage of by the airlines. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that if you all stopped paying none of you would have to pay.

[spaceman1000]

african drunk,

I agree with you. I have been even baned from this forum.Probably for excessive truth I have said in the past.

Young people are blind, and airlines know some of these teenager 'parents are ready to fork a fortune to see their kid in a jet plane. Study the 14 ATPL is not really hard , it takes 6-7 months of "hard" studing.So yes, any loser can become a pilot and it is why we have to many pilots on this market, and schools, companies make fun of these guys and make them pay all they can.

if you were manager of an airline, would you hire the pilot who pay to work and fly, and you keep his money for your self or would you pay a pilot.

I would take all his money and if he is not happy with the job, I kick him out!!!

anyway, happy or not, if he can not pay me, I kick him out anyway.

BTW, I am a recruiter but not in aviation, and the bad thing is :I have to pay my employees, arrrrr!!!!

[AIRWAY]

It's a bit unrealistic don't you think, that all of a sudden all pilots will not pay for a type rating :rolleyes: if i dont pay someone else will... Well im not at that stage yet, but when the time arrives i will have to give heaps of consideration if i will or i will not pay for a type rating, i don't want to pay, but if i have to i will. :sad:

[fastjet2k]

Young people are blind, and airlines know some of these teenager 'parents are ready to fork a fortune to see their kid in a jet plane.

I disagree entirely with that. In my personal opinion the industry has changed, for better or worse and for right or wrong reasons. Either way, no amount of arguing is going to change it and 'wannabes' are NOT going to vote with their feet and refuse to pay. I don't think young people are blind at all. In fact, I think young people trying to join the industry now are far better equipped to deal with this rapidly changing industry and deal with it without whinging that its not the same as it used to be.

We all agree its now deemed acceptable to go and fund our own training. It goes without saying if its possible to save the money and be sponsored, anybody will choose that. It also goes without saying that if somebody can get a type-rating paid for, then that will also be done. However, if you're prepared to pay up to 65k on getting licenced, then isn't it worth spending that bit more to make the initial 65k worthwhile??! Believe me, I don't want to ever pay for a type-rating any more than the next person, but I'll do whatever I need to do to ensure long-term success in the only career I have ever wanted.

Blind, no. Open minded, yes.

Just a thought.... FJ2k

[Penworth]

Fastjet2k

However, if you're prepared to pay up to 65k on getting licenced, then isn't it worth spending that bit more to make the initial 65k worthwhile??!

Its this bit that concerns a lot of people (myself included). Is it really only a "bit more"? Do you not think its conceivable that, once everybody accepts that paying for a type rating is a requirement, that the airlines will move onto the next opportunity to squeeze money out of their pilots? Paying for line training is already happening. What's next? Ryanair are already milking their workforce for all its worth with their plans to make their pilots pay for their uniforms, sim checks, medical renewals on days off etc.

And once the above is the accepted norm, what about paying for a new type rating every time you change type or move operators? All of a sudden its not a bit more you're spending, but a never ending reduction in the t+c's for those who are prepared to do anything to follow "the dream".

PW

[SpringbokDreamer]

This is just it... People don't see the long term affect this will have. I have first hand experience of t's and c's being cut after only one year. The company in question lowered F/O pay by 5K from 22K in one year. AND included flight pay in the lower salary when the guys have never had flight pay!! Now the Cabin crew are earning way more then the flight deck crew. Reason behind it: The accountant got wind of guys turning up and offering to pay for TR/Line training and to work for nothing fot the first 6 months.

Where will it stop. The Airlines are going to jump on us every step of the way

It's a case of get the job now F:mad: the future. How happy are those pilots going to be when they are declared Bankrupt and yet still earning 25K. They still have to live!!

We're never going to be able to stop these guys going and paying. I'm not even sure if we should. but lets all have a good think about the consequences. I don't really want to bend over every day of my career because of the Slut mentallity some guys now have.

:{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :sad:

[spaceman1000]

what is the problem to buy a t/r, go to your bank and ask for money.In the UK, you are rich , no?
ask all the money you want, then file bankruptcy...

it is what airlines want, so do it!

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Spaceman ......Could I interest you in a yellow tattoo???:hmm: :hmm:

[haughtney1]

I cant help but concur with springbok..and pen. Once again I will ask this question..that Ive asked in this forum around 7 times now...without getting an answer......when will the paying stop?..are you going to pay for your line training?...when you tire of your A320..or 737..are you going to pay to move up?..oh and finally..have you actually got a job to go to?...or are you just buying a type rating on the off chance.
The company I work for bond pilots....no money up front..but you incurr a bond..leave early..and you pay a portion back. Oh and our T & C's are being eroded by the "I have more money than sense" muppets.


H:sad:

[redsnail]

easyJet from Nov 04 will be recruiting pilots for their cadet scheme via CTC or the TRSS.
To be eligible for interviews (TRSS) from Nov 04 you'll need a minimum of 1500 hours and 500 hours multi crew on medium to heavy turboprops (or jets). Note, your application will be accepted if you have less than those hours but the chances are now slim that you'll be interviewed untill such time as their needs change.

How that affects people who've done a type rating outside of the eJ TRSS and have 100-200 hours on it I don't know. (but less than 1500 hours TT)

[joe]

Redsnail.

The last thing i heard is that there would be no more boeing courses for a while and that the next course to start (airbus) was not until April.

Has this changed?. Are Easy wanting people for the New Year?

Any info much appreciated.

Joe

[Phileas Fogg]

(Ryanair are already milking their workforce for all its worth with their plans to make their pilots pay for their uniforms, sim checks, medical renewals on days off etc.)

Why does every thread seemingly turn or make reference to Ryanair? Why not get away from Ryanair and talk about a more widespread industry?

That said, it is the pilot's responsibility to keep his licence & medical legal, accepted some companies pay for these and consider a medical a duty but there are very many airlines who do not and by very far, not just Ryanair!

What next, a day off work to go and renew his licence?

[Maxiumus]

Phileas Fogg

Why do you think threads continually make reference to Ryanair when it comes to talking about T&C's and erosion thereof?

Other airlines consider it a duty to do the medical etc quite simply because it is. As a required part of your ability to work, it is very much the companies duty to look after you in this matter. I think you will find that most companies, in any sphere of industry, provide, on company time, all that is required for the employee to maintain his/her output.

Such things, and training too incidentally, are the cost of doing business. If you don't like this, I suggest you do not do business.

[Baron rouge]

Aviation is going back to where it was 100 years ago: Pilot job accessible only to rich people

On most threads you can find three types of reaction to that situation:

1) Rich young guys saying: the employer wants me to pay to get a job, I will pay because I can and there is no other way round
2) Poor guys who can’t pay and use the arguments of category 3 type to justify their reluctance to pay
3) Established pilots who did not have to pay for their ratings and claim that category 1 paying pilots, by doing so ruin their T’&C’s.

What I would ask to well established category 3 pilots is what have you done to protect new pilots T’&C’s, and more importantly what, apart the judicious advice “don’t pay, stay on the dole so that our T’&C’s don’t deteriorate” are you doing to help things change ?

The truth is they are doing NOTHING!!!
When their boss came a few years ago, and told them: Things are going bad we will have to reduce the salaries…
They came up with that wonderful idea, called the B scale, all new entrants will be paid less for 2-3 years, and their own salary wouldn’t be reduced.
The boss came again a few years later with the same request
Again same easy answer: make the new guys pay for their ratings but don’t touch our salary…

So Category 3 pilots stop with your good advice, what would be pilots need is HELP.

[Freaky Styley]

Maxiumus - maby it was because a direct reference to Ryanair was actually made. :mad:

[Phileas Fogg]

Maximum,
OK, we'll have to agree to differ, I've worked for numerous operators only one of which, 20+ years ago, was semi low cost and I think you will find that it is not 'other airlines consider it a duty' but 'some airlines consider it a duty'.
Thats all

[willby]

Hi,
May not be totally relevant but no harm to know what T&G,s exist outside the airlines. I recently retired from an international offshore oil/gas company. Like pilots we had to renew mandatory certificates annualy or biannualy. These included ;
Medical; Sea-Survival; Uderwater-Escape; Firefighting ;First-Aid;
Helicopter Landing Officer; First Aid etc etc.
Never once was it suggested that we bear any of these costs ourselves and this is the case for all offshore companies. Why dont the various pilot unions insist on these basic entitlements for their members?
Willby

[Baron rouge]

Never once was it suggested that we bear any of these costs ourselves and this is the case for all offshore companies. Why don’t the various pilot unions insist on these basic entitlements for their members?

Why my dear Willby?

Because as you may not know, Pilot unions leaders are well established captains whose unique preoccupation in life is the amount of salary they can get, and the retirement pension they will grasp in exchange of their acceptation of lowest T & C’s for their younger colleagues.

If MOL hadn’t threatened to modify those DUBLIN old chaps T & C’s, there would never have been unrest at RYANAIR, these guys howling their desperation now had done nothing for years to protect the younger pilots T & C’s.

They ripe what they sowed and I am afraid it’s all too late now …

[Oggin Aviator]

Just out of interest, how much does a type rating (eg for a 737) cost?

[roman DZI]

Hi guys,

I’m a pilot in Slovakia. I have finished the university and I joined the Airline (low cost) directly.
Without paying cent for type rating and I will NEVER PAY for this.

All the courses are enough to pay.

There are a lot of abroad pilots here and a lot of them paid for type ratings.
I thing this is the aim of low cost companies around the globe.
BUT this will lead the companies to give jobs to all “jays” which are able to pay instead off pilots which know their own price on the market.

This days situation in business is occasion for pilots to not to pay!!!

The aviation is globe market and we pilots; we are just a little element in this machine. We have to act pro solido!

Hi bluefalcon,

Sorry for saing this I just simply don`t understand your point of view.
You look like to be absolutely at peace with this situation.
Let me tell you my personal opinion:
I didn’t pay for type rating, but I paid for all courses to meet minimum requirements for joining airlines. BUT there are countries and opportunities to pass all courses with some support from serious airlines, which are not interesting only to HAVE pilots, but to have as good pilots as possible. And the main criteria should be quality. Not the money.
Sorry for telling this, I don’t thing the pilots which paid for TR are not good enough, I’m only saying this give the chance, to airlines, to make the money the main criteria.

Happy landings, Roman.


:ok:

[AIRWAY]

O. Aviator,

I believe it's around 19k figure last time i checked maybe it's gone up now.

Regards,
Airway
:8

[scallaghan]

Hi

I have been reading your above threads regarding the type rating and self funding.

Personally I dont agree with the employee paying for a type rating also considering the aircraft fleets might change alot in the next few years. i.e. 737's to A319/A320's.

I was invited to one of those Sponsorship scheme interviews and tests at CTC recently. Havent gone yet but I was looking at the training costs taking into account I already have a PPL and it seemed expensive. Also I was concerned that places like that might be places that really push people through not really getting the proper grounding on stuff at the slower place which they may need.

I am still thinking the best route would be to train through a modular course for exams, do the CPL/ME/IR one after another and then perhaps try and go through someone like CTC if you had to for that Type rating.

Also I was recently in the U.S at a flight school that I wont name to do a few hours. Realised that I would rather spend that bit more money in doing my commercial ratings here in the U.K. Especially the IR.

One last thought regarding the typing ratings, I read recently that some sort of JAA multi crew license will be coming out in 2006 and in the article and it mentioned that this would have students doing type ratings as apart of the course.

As someone doing modular ATPL exam study at the moment, I am trying to get more information on this.

Cheers