What would you do?

[Artificial Horizon]

I have two options:

1) Command on Dash 8 Q400
2) F/O on Bae 146

Can't decide, what do you think.:sad:

[MAX]

Id personally take the command time and the pay rise. But it does depend a little on your future aspirations I guess?

MAX:cool:

[StudentInDebt]

Command.

You can always go back to the right seat, very rare you'll get the opportunity to sit in the left.

[767bill]

I'm only a lowly PPL but I know which I'd take in your position...

[Trainee pilot]

Hi A H,

It is a difficult decision to make, I take it by the a/c types you work for FlyBe? It depends what you want in life, if you are already working for them as F/O Q400 then it's just a command course, if you transfer to the 146 it's another 2 year bond? You have to decide where you want to be in 1-2 years. If you are gagging to get your career onto the next step of jets, and if the 146 will be kept for your bond duration (are they replacing them all with Q400's?) then perhaps jet time would be the better choice leaving you with a better looking CV for those shiny A320's etc in a couple of years? However, some people don't like the idea of being a career F/O and want command time ASAP, in which case go for the Q400, it certainly has far superior avionics to the 146 which will be looked on favorably by other companies....I guess it is only a decision you can make, either way don't they both work out about the same in terms of salary? There are so many variables such as your age? If you are in your 50's then perhaps a command on the Q400 would be a great way to live out your career, if you are 25 then perhaps you want to move quickly onto jets? At the end of the day, people can always offer advice based on what they would do, however what works for them might not for you and sometimes we get it wrong! You will have to get two pieces of paper and write down all the pro's and con's of both and then decide based on the facts and what you want in life, and I am sure you will then reach the right choice for you. I wish you luck and to have both options is a good thing really!

[Carpathia]

Tough one I think. The 146 performs like a brick but it's still a jet. On the other hand, it's not EFIS time. Depends on whether you plan to stay at FlyBe or not. If I was you and planned to stay, I'd go command on the Dash. If the alternative jet was something better, I'd say take that, but the 146 only seems to inspire any sort of affection from those who have flown no other jet. Those who have left my company recently have all gone long-haul and they were all skippers (course this could be due to their greater hours than most FO's rather than solely to the advantages of command time). On the other hand, I don't know how easy it would be to go longhaul with just turboprop time. I suspect turboprop to heavy is too much of a jump at the moment and your next destination would have to be a short-haul jet, like the 146... So I haven't really helped! I guess it depends on where you want to go next and how quickly. Just bear in mind, the 146 is no great shakes - although it can be fun to fly, the climb performance is very frustrating - but it is a jet. That said, the q400 probably performs not much worse!

[AIRLEBANON]

Hello Mate

I dont even start any formal Pilot Training till early 2005, But from what I have been advised on these forums and from Pilots I know in the Industry I look at your Dilema in this way.

Dash 8 pretty looking Turboprop your going to be its captain for 1 2 3 or how ever many years you want till you start gagging for a long haul or short haul Jet Job and you go for an interview and there you meet your competion a Young man with let say 400 Hours which Included 50 Hours of Jet Time Experience as a First Officer in some crazy Airline and there you are a Captain of a Dash 8 with serniority experience in the Industry but absolutly 0 Jet time, the guy in the office is going to Take the Young Guy why well because he has flown a Jet he has Jet Experience and His Applying for a Jet Job, as for you well yes you have lets say 3000h but non of them are on Jet so they will have a longer time to teach you on the specific type of Aircraft and worst of all Handling a Jet is Different than a Turboprop so any Slite Experience in a Jet is better than 0 jet time.

Second Option you are a First Officer of a BAe 146, I have been a Passenger in one and I have been inside the cockpit it looks well cramped up there, but if you go for that Oh no you tell your self I must be stuck with FLYBE for another 2 more years so what man, Think about it your a FO on a Jet plane you build up lets say 900h as a Second in Command on a Jet Plane, then you go for your Interview and they look at your CV for that jet job they will say Very Nice this guy has well over 800h on jet and could easily be adapted to our own fleet of planes compared to a 5000h turboprop pilot who happens to be your competion.
Lets say you et paid 25k a year for 2 years as a FO if you can save money wisely and after 2 years you have a lumpsum of lets say 20k you can get then get a Type rating of your favourite 737 or 320 and hey presto you have a total now of 3000h which 900h are jet time and 150h on type you walk into any of the emirates and Gulf Air of the worlds and say d you think I can have a Lovely FO Tax Free Job on one of your Jet planes I happen to have your required 1500h jet time and I have a type rating on a shiny Airbus plane and as well know all Boeing planes and Airbus plane they look alike and fly alike in the cockpit so mr Gulf Air says Ok you seem to be motivated you have your jet time experience and yes am sure you can be accomodated in one of our jobs after all we are looking at increasing our fleet in time for 2008 by buying 50 new Aircrafts.

The above situations are in an idial world as you already know this is not an ideal world but trust me good fello, the end justifys the means, and best of luck for me I would choose the FO Jet time, but your the boss in this situation as for me am merly a Soon to be a Pilot in training what would I know some might say well I knoe enouth to choose the jet time.

Kind regards
AirLebanon

[Snoop]

After hearing Jim French speak recently He appears to be very upbeat about flybe.'s future and has said that they are actively looking for a replacement for the 146. Now there aren't too many people manufacturing 100 - 150 jets so I would say that the choices are limited. With that in mind I would have thought it would be better to get command experience on the q400 over a few years,. Then when you have a few years command experience look at moving then on to a new jet fleet. As has been said before though it does depend on what you want to do with your career and if you are happy with what you do and the money you get for doing it.

Anyway Congratulations on the offer of a command. I would be happy with just an offer of an FO's position!

Best of luck

[er82]

AH
As a fellow Flybe-er I'm now trying to work out who you are! Personally I'd take the 146. But that's because I eventually want to go long haul so need the jet hours!
Depends on what base you are.....
Down in the islands it's extremely possible that the jet will be gone in a couple of years, so if you took the 146, got the higher salary, got some jet time, and then in 3 years they put you all back on the 400, you'll keep your higher salary, no doubt then be given a command on the 400, and it's all good!

Not sure about the other bases. Who knows when we'll get the 150 seaters, but the more recent rumours have it that we'll be getting the RJ's as a replacement for the 146's, and have only a few 150 seaters for the Spanish routes...

It all depends on where you want to go with your career. If you're with Flybe for the rest of your career then it makes no difference which position you take as there will always be an opportunity to go for the other one a few years down the line.
If you want to advance to long haul, then get the jet hours.

Have I helped??? I doubt it! But all I'm good for is gossip!

[767bill]

I didn't say what I would do in your situation (if I were lucky enough to be there..) as it seemed obvious, I would in fact relish the responsibility and I trust higher pay(?) of the command, and trust to luck for the rest. But then if you would rather fly a 146 and then shinnier jets that should be your decision, no one else can be in your shoes!

Anyway, working for flybe (as seems to be the case) you are fairly lucky anyway. I met, well heard speak, Ron Darby (the Fly be pilot manager) and it seems like a winning airline with a sound philosophy, nice chap as well. Also noticed that the said airline has moved nicely into profit. As a truly regional airline they could have a promising future...

[excrab]

AH,

It really depends, as has been said, on your personal circumstances and aspirations.

The Q400 you know about already, as you are presumably flying it as an F/O. It is a very capable turbo-prop, good EFIS, easy to operate.

The 146 is a not very capable jet (except for short fields), it doesn't fly as high or fast as other jets, and it is very old technology. (This is not a Q400v146 debate, by the way, that is already raging elsewhere). However, in service with Flybe it has a much more varied route structure which will potentially give you exposure to parts of Europe which you will never see on the dash, and which would later prepare you well for anything which could be thrown at you in command on either type - or whatever Flybe replace it with.

The 146 also has the considerable advantage (whatever dash pilots posting elsewhere may want to believe) that with 1500 hours on it you can go into zero flight time training for other heavy jet types - which will not happenif you fly the Q400 in the left hand seat.

Remembering that once you are in the LHS with Flybe the bid rules prevent you bidding RHS on another type, I would advise you to take the 146. If you decide to leave the company it is heavy jet time which most other employers will be more interested in (and the same applies if all the news about record profits are a scam and something goes wrong with the company and you end up being forced into the job market). If you decide to stay then you can always bid for the LHS Q400 at any point having accrued as many hours on the 146 as you like - with the current massive shortage of Q400 captains that the company is suffering (rumour of direct entry commands in the crew rom the other day) they are unlikely to force you to stay on the 146 if you change your mind - but once you are in the LHS on the dash it will probably be a long time before you get to fly LHS on any sort of jet with flybe due to seniority.

The money issue is of course only something you can decide.

Whatever you choose I'm sure you wil enjoy it - good luck.

[superstall]

AH,

Real tough one this to decide but a captain once told me 'never turn down a job, but never turn down a jet job.'

I know which option i'd go for

[767bill]

A slight diversion from the topic but would any one be willing to explain to me the following:

"Remembering that once you are in the LHS with Flybe the bid rules prevent you bidding RHS on another type"

Does this mean that a turbo prop captain, if promoted in the said airline suddenly becomes a 146 captain?? If this is correct would there not be the situation of a 146 captain with almost zero experience on that type flying with a first officer with perhaps a couple of years experience on that aircraft? I imagine that I may have misunderstood, but if I am correct is this a good policy in terms of safety?

[Artificial Horizon]

767bill,


This situation can indeed happen (albeit, I have never seen it happen). If your are senior enough you could bid for the 146 command straight off the dash as long as you satisfy the requirements for hours.

It happens on the Dash all the time, jet fo's straight to command on the dash having never flown it before and with an fo that may have 2000ish hours on the thing.

As for my own situation I have opted for the command for the money aspect mainly. I do want the jet job eventually but am not in an overall hurry as I have age on my side. Besides that Dash must be respected as I have in the past 2 months been offered interviews with Jet 2 and British Airways, so I think that things are picking up.:)

[excrab]

767bill,

Further to Artificial Horizons reply, it has indeed happened at Flybe on a regular basis with both the 146 and the CRJ, where many of the captains went straight from left seat F27 or SD360 to left seat CRJ.

And before anyone uses this for a bit of flybe bashing it is comon at most airlines where there is a mix of equipment and a seniority system that works. For another recent example the first channel express pilots to go through the 737 course were, if I remember rightly, Electra crews with no previous jet experience. Going back further to the first introduction of jet airliners all the captains were straight from turboprops or indeed piston transport aircraft.

Despite what many jet pilots would have you believe there is no great mystery to flying a swept wing jet, and you don't have to be a superman to go straight to the LHS of one (from personal experience - I did it so anyone should be able to).

An experienced turbo-prop captain is making the same decisions each day as a jet captain (although possibly the fuel quantities may have some extra noughts on the end) and a good simulator course and adequate line training will take care of the rest. (I am talking similar operations here, such as shorthaul tp to shorthaul jet - you wouldn't expect to be able to go straight from a shorthaul tp to long haul jet command). The reason that the jet operators prefer to recruit pilots with jet experience is partly that it reduces the training risk, and also for direct entry captains it prevents F/Os in the company with jet experience but insufficient total time to get the command from developing chips on the shoulders.

As far as the F/Os with more type experience goes, it isn't a serious problem provided that both crew members are professional and know a little about CRM. I always pointed out to the F/Os that they had more experience on the aircraft than I did and could they please keep an eye on me and tell me if they thought I was doing anything stupid. The trouble comes when a captain new to type starts trying to tell an experienced F/O how to fly the aeroplane, as that will certainly get peoples backs up - but that could apply equally to a jet F/O getting a command on a turboprop as the other way around.

Anyway that's getting off the topic a bit - AH - enjoy the command course and the move to Scotland or Belfast (unless you're already there, of course).

[767bill]

Thanks for that excrab, much appreciated.

Best of Luck AH!

[fernytickles]

767bill

Further to everyone else's comments, read up all you can on the air quality on the 146. It doesn't affect everyone, but I was on one for 2 years, and won't go back. It definitely affected me, no long term effects as far as I'm aware, but as I say, I was only on it for 2 years.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

[flystudent]

in response to the last post, Balpa article on the fumes ..
air quality (http://www.balpa.org./intranet/BALPA-Camp/The-Aircra/Cabin-Air/index.htm)

:ok: FS

[Riker]

You already have the EFIS time and experience having flown the Q400 as an FO. Now, go get some jet time on the 146 so that you can qualify for Virgin, etc.

Just remember, they don't call the 146 a FUBA (F@cked Up British Aeroplane) for nothing... Get ready to memorize all of the switches and knobs - those dials will make you go mad after flying EFIS for awhile...

Good luck and let us know what you decide.