Royal Near Miss........???

[LGW Vulture]

British Broadcasting Crap reporting Princess Royal in "air proximity incident..........

....can't wait for this little beauty! :rolleyes:

[Co ordination unaffected]

From BBC news website


The Princess Royal was involved in an "air proximity incident" on Thursday, Buckingham Palace has said.
It is believed that an RAF aeroplane carrying Princess Anne to engagements in Scotland was involved in a near-miss with another aircraft.

She was on her way to engagements in Banffshire and Aberdeenshire. It is understood the Princess has since continued with the events.

[Teddy Robinson]

This will be hilarious when the tabloids get a hold of it .. perfect timing as it means they don't have to confuse their readers with any real news :rolleyes:

[eal401]

Are there any detailed articles published yet? Or is the journo bashing in already?

Can I blame the ATC, it's obviously their fault. :rolleyes:

[Co ordination unaffected]

Ooh it was one of mummys fast planes. There's a shock.

The Ministry of Defence said an incident happened shortly after 1000 GMT in Lancashire's Morecambe Bay area.

The MoD spokesman told BBC News: "A loss of separation was reported by the National Air Traffic Service to the Civil Aviation Authority, between two aircraft - an RAF HS125 and a Eurofighter Typhoon - shortly after 1000 GMT in the Morcambe Bay area."

[lomapaseo]

Is this a near miss or a near collison?

What was the closest separation so we may put this in some kind of context in order to focus our news bashing.:}

[SLFguy]

in the Morcambe Bay area."

Cockle pickers gonna get persecution complex's soon.

(er...what's the plural of complex?)

[CHIVILCOY]

ONE is not at all amused with your comments.

[Dangerman]

From the BBC News website:

It is understood the RAF HS125, on which Princess Anne was travelling, was flying at a level height on a cleared flight path when the RAF Eurofighter Typhoon, flying under military control, came within 3.3 miles of it.

A warning system sounded and the National Air Traffic Services' Manchester area controller advised the HS125 to descend.

A spokesman for the National Air Traffic Services (Nats) said the royal plane was being controlled by Nats' Manchester area air traffic control centre.

"The controller observed the Typhoon turn to cross ahead of the royal flight and immediately told the royal flight to take avoiding action," he said.

[Gentle Climb]

reported that seperation was 600ft vertical, 3 miles horizontal.

[Co ordination unaffected]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4003799.stm

The MOD said the aircraft 'did not collide'...
That's a relief!

[eal401]

RAF Eurofighter Typhoon
Darn Warton lot b*ggering about again! ;)

[Topofthestack]

Sounds as though someone will find themselves posted to the Falklands for a long period if it was of the boys in blue flying the Typhoon!;)

[WorkingHard]

How many times does this kind of incident occur but never reported because a "Royal" was not involved? Who was "controlling" (forgive the euphamism) the Typhoon?

[BEagle]

Was this in 'normal' Regulated Airspace or in Mummy's Royals-only Purple Airspace promulgated for the occasion?

[WHBM]

BBC Teletext have already decided it was a "Near Miss". So what will be in the tabloids tomorrow ? Any 2 each from :

1. Plunged
2. Wrestled grimly with the controls
3. Narrowly missed a school

[eal401]

1. Plunged
2. Wrestled grimly with the controls
3. Narrowly missed a school
None of them

:rolleyes:

[FakePilot]

Can't use the "narrowly missed a school" option, because here in the States we hit a school. So the value of "narrowly missed a school" has had it's sensationality index dropped due to event inflation.

[RAT 5]

Didn't that wizz-bang Friend/Foe thingumyjig on the Typhoon tell the driver that the HS-125 was a Friend? And with all the other turbocharged electrons and intercept systems whoosing around the avionics, did they not realise someone else was nearby. I thought these latest spiffing aeroplanes could track a flock of mosquitoes.

Ah, Hoskins. Forgot to switch it on, eh?

[Lancelot de boyles]

The wizz bang IFF probably identified it as HRH Princess anne, and obviously selected it as Non-Friendly.
Based on previous interesting news items with HRH, a dog-fight was probably assumed appropriate.

I\'d best go and wait by the front door for Special branch:ouch:

[AlanM]

Frankly I am shocked and stunned.

I mean - a Typhoon...... airborne..... at high level?

Shurely this is a mishtake.......

[RAT 5]

There were days, long gone by, when I flew a (AAHH...) De Haviland (Hawker Siddley) 125 across the north sea. We could get some bang for our tax payer's bucks and elect to be intercepted and so give the boys in blue some practice with their toys. Might HRH Anne be so goodwill spirited to have done the same? If so, then 3nm & 6oo' was a lousy intercept. I would have hoped them to have at least received a gentle gloved wave from a cabin window. Or rather a reverse 'victory' salute might be more appropriate. Doesn't she have more attachemnts to the navy?

[jetfour]

To the editor of PPRUNE.

Dear Sir,

It is with great dismay that I read in your organ that a member of our gracious First Family is refered to as a "Royal near Miss".

There is far to much of this despicable reportage refering to the marital status or misfortune of our beloved Royals.

Kindly see to it that this stops immediately.

Yours etc,

Maj. Gen. Jetfour (Rtd):D

[--o-o-0-o-o--]

The Bloody Typhoon pilots..........such amateurs ; );)

[Balmoral Bird]

Oh naff orf, the lot of you. ;)

[coopervane]

I've been over Morcambe bay when Typhoon's have been buzzing around in ye old C172 Touch wood,they didn't come too close and the nice man from Warton gave me an excellent RIS. Maybe the MOD thought the Princess Royal didn't want to be disturbed by such trivia!!!

Coop & Royal Bear

[Loose rivets]

HS 125!! Will the Princess Royal's hairdo really fit into one of mommy's little planes?

[viaEGLL]

HRH was said to be unaffected by the incident but there are a few things that she was not happy about;

1. The G&T was spilt.
2. One of mummys corgi's that was in transit sh** itself.
3.Finally one smuged ones lippy.

After a good night on the p*** HRH was nearly fully recovered !!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<It is with great dismay that I read in your organ>>

Well, you're not reading anything in my organ so there..

[Nopax,thanx]

Well, from the telly this morning, the Royal Jet 'Plunged 2000 feet to avoid a collision' and HRH was advised later on that it had happened. One would have thought that a half mile plunge would have been noticed whilst in flight, eh???

Presumably the 125 had TCAS and it was just a standard alert, if indeed they were close enough for the TCAS to go off....

[beamer]

Living near Gatcombe( PR's cotswold gaffe) I have had the occasional 'near miss' with said royal personage on the country lanes over the years - 'speed limits 'not where ma'amm is concerned...............

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Our Daily Rag said both a/c were heading north.... but had they been head-on they would have hit in 9 seconds!!!

Aren't journalists fantastic?

[RingDobi1]

As ever, the papers are full of sensationalised commentary. No it didn't happen in purple airspace, the incident occurred within normal controlled airspace. Regardless of who was controlling the Typhoon, the separation was allegedly, 3 miles (and 600ft) in TC's airspace this is standard separation so lets not get too excited here. If you want to get excited about something, take a closer look at how close Mil jets are getting to you FlyBe boys when you cut the corners through bandit country over the Irish Sea. 300ft and NO miles has occurred recently (In Class G, Mil jet not under ATC service). Later...

[delta96]

As if it isn't enough for the RAF to harass poor horse riders at low level, you have search them out at altitude. 'Options For Change' would be re-written tout-suite if they'd had to shoot her.

[Wycombe]

Beamer,

As a kid, I grew up around RMA Sandhurst, where HRH the PR lived at the time with "foggy".

Her Reliant Scimitar was very well known by the local Constabulary!

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

RingDobi1, I presume the one your on about was actually filed by a Hawk pilot against a Dash 8 that was under a RIS from ScOACC somewher near Burrow Head? I share your sentiments in that it doesn't appear to be too sensible flying off-route in that part of the world, especially when all that is on offer is a RIS.

[Vage Rot]

And with all that new notamed airspace/Danger areas in Scotland for the Eurofailuer Tampoon to fly in too!!!

Shame on them!!

Still, if the HS125 was below FL245 and off route, the EF VMC then what's the problem? Sounds like a Swannick Mil issue
(Don't know that was the situation - just ASSUMing!!)

[BEagle]

Wb's SATCO - don't be such a poof! Back when men were men and F4s ruled Wattisham, we did many an intercept on the 'Norwich Flier' flogging its way from Amshterdam to Naarch Airport!

If the people-tube drivers want to operate in Class G, they should expect to be used as targets for the odd PI!!

And, err, my nav and I were once flying as SLF in an ancient F27 from East Midlands to Naarch after a long flog back from Turnhouse (they couldn't get in to Leeds Bradford) - only to be intercepted by F4s from our own sqn. Didn't think twice about it - perhaps because the rather nice cabin lady had earlier given us complimentary G and Ts of industrial strength!

[RingDobi1]

Whipping Boy's SATCO - Yep, that is the one I was referring to. Not even an advisory route up there. Furthermore CIVIL called the 'conflictor' to the FlyBe but assumed it to be below FL100 because it had no SRR (Had temp gone u/s it would appear). Hey, it could have been a fast moving Glider!

Vage Rot - Twas @ 270ish before plummeting in a zero-g dive.

[buoy15]

RingDobi1
Have a quick read of the Yellow Book about the "Safeguard System" operated by NATS
Purple airspace is a moving bubble around the ac and 10 milesish is required to be observed
Depends if they were using a KittyHawk type c/s etc.

Love many, Trust a few, Always paddle your own canoe!!

[BEagle]

buoy15, the Safeguard System applies only to Royal Helicopter Flights and Selected Helicopter Flights. It does not apply to Royal Flights made by fixed wing aircraft.

Incidentally, civil pilots are only 'requested' to observe the separation from the Royal helicopter, so 501' from a clattering corgi-carrier is quite sufficient!

[buoy15]

Beags
Agreed, but today we have to brief a Royal Flight and initial the Auth Sheet to that effect irrespective of the ac type. Do NATS apply Purple to every flight?:hmm:

[BEagle]

Your auth sheet nonsense appears to be confusing typical service supervisory CMA-bull$hit with the actual legal requirements.

One very good reason why all military pilots applying for civil licences have to take an Air Law paper - so that they actually have to learn and apply the real rules and procedures, rather than some 'Mummy-knows-best' SOP...

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Beages, maybe it is finally time for you to go and lie down.

From the UK SRD, the preferred route is:

DCS W911D IOM L10

Consequently, one must reiterate RD1's question about GAT cutting corners.

As an aside, I continue to be intrigued by ScOACC not providing a RAS to off-route traffic. Is this what is called "risk management"?

[L J R]

I can't believe all the hullabuloo about an archaic 1930's system.


When will the RAF get into the 80, so it may progress into the '90s in preparation for the new millenium.


.


It wasn't a near miss - it was 3. > something F*ing miles!!

[RingDobi1]

buoy15 - Yes, familiar with the safeguard system. When I referred to 3 miles being standard seperation in some airspace, I wasn't suggesting that this would be applied to a Royal.

And yes the off-route GAT thing is becoming more and more of an issue, over the Irish Sea. How often do we see traffic cutting the corner from KELLY direct to NM or similar. Mentalists. Straight over the top of Warton for the sake of a few miles. Another good one is the growing number of DW inbounds that cruise at 180 E-W, north of Valley - where the base of the airway (the northern westbound bit) is 185! I bet a whole Jelly Baby they're still under Radar Control. Nice one chaps - It's Bandit Country and fair game

Later...:ok:

[Canary Boy]

Purple Airspace - shurely one means Controlled Airspace Temporary (were the Corgi Carrier not in established CAS)?:O

[Loose rivets]

_____________________________________
Wb's SATCO - don't be such a poof! Back when men were men and F4s ruled Wattisham, we did many an intercept on the 'Norwich Flier' flogging its way from Amshterdam to Naarch Airport!
_____________________________________


So! That was YOU was it?

[BEagle]

On many an occasion!

wb'sSATCO does sem to have taken my comments without the requisite pinch of salt though.

I used to get very cheesed off at ATCUs who tried to shunt us around the North Sea 'for co-ordination' in order for them to give a RAS to some corner-cutting airliner. Indeed, we had looks of incredulity at Wattisham from a visiting pair of Lightnings who learned that we had to go from Wattisham tower to Wattisham Approach to Eastern Radar to Neatishead just to get to the north coast of Norfolk! They wouldn't hear of such nonsense. Airborne on tower, then "Sqn discrete - GO" and that was that until they called Binbrook at Initials!

"What type of service do you require?" How tempting it used to be to say "Nothing - just shut up and let us get on with things our own way!"

[ukatco_535]

Buoy15

NATS do not use 'purple airspace' or controlled airspace temporary as it is now known, if the flight is in established controlled airspace......

[whowhenwhy]

BEagle, you say that you'd like us to shut up and let you get on with things your own way. Yes you have that right and we'd love to be able to! It's called going VFR, like your quoted Lightning mates. You didn't have to speak to Eastern Radar or Neatishead if you didn't want to. Unless it was written into your Fg Order Book? Unfortunately nowadays, if you elect to call ATC for a FIS all ATCOs now have this wonderous term, "duty of care" hanging over them and if any ATCO is deemed to have failed in his duty of care then unfortunately it's not a case of a hats on chat with no tea and biccies. If the poop really has hit the spinning object, then you'll wind up in court being done for negligence, man slaughter and heaven alone knows what else. THAT is why you may get more information than you actually want when you've asked for a FIS or a listening watch. That's not to say that there aren't ATCOs out there who do have a tendency to give their life story on the RT because there are; however, hopefully it might illustrate the kind of sh*t we have to put up with on a regular basis :ok:

[Paladini]

SLFguy:

De Cambrij Youniverity Lernerz Dikshunery sez plooral of complex : is complexes!!!

luk it upp!

[BEagle]

whowhenwhy - perhaps, then, it's time the UK military adopted the same ATC and RTF procedures as the UK's majority airspace users?

Or perhaps we should bring back 'listening out on this' as the minimum 'service'? Quite often under FIS I just want ATC to STFU unless called......

So to get round it, I just say "Squawking 7000, to en-route, good day". And then just stay on the frequency with the volume turned down....

[WorkingHard]

Beagle - "perhaps, then, it's time the UK military adopted the same ATC and RTF procedures as the UK's majority airspace users?"
What a novel idea that the military should do anything so sensible in the interests of flight safety!!!!!!!!

[PPRuNe Radar]

NATS don't establish any form of airspace for Royal Flights.

This is done by the Airspace Utilisation Section (a joint civil/MoD organisation but nothing to do with NATS) based on the requirement given to them by 32 (The Royal) Squadron (who are also nothing to do with NATS :p ). As already mentioned, if existing Controlled Airspace is already there, then this is used. If it is not Class A however, it will be upgraded to Class A for the periods stated in the NOTAM. This is to prevent VFR flight within the airspace.

NATS comes in to play, usually as the Controlling Authority if they have responsibility in the airspace concerned, or to advise AUS if the airspace designated has errors in it on receipt of the NOTAM.

[buoy15]

Beags
Flew with a very nice co-pilot chappie who when asked by Lossie Radar "What kind of service do you require?"
Replied, "A good one!"
Nuff said

Aussie quote
"Stalling is an attitude problem"

[Pontius Navigator]

I understand that the Typhoons were under control at the time so no problem there!