BCAR Very Light Helicopters

[Genghis the Engineer]

Worthy of note for people in the R&D or certification spheres, this was in my mail this morning from CAA,

G




As requested, please find below details of new and amended Civil Aviation Authority Publications within your chosen categories:

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"CAP 750: British Civil Airworthiness Requirements Section VLH - Very Light Helicopters"
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A simplified airworthiness design code for amateur constructed helicopters of less than 750 kg MAUW. Helicopters qualified to this code will only be eligible for the award of a Permit to Fly.
Please click here for the document: http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/publicationdetails.asp?id=1457

[airborne_artist]

But would you be happy to airtest one, and suggest that a low hours PPL(H) use it?

[Genghis the Engineer]

There's a good track record of simplified codes being used for certifying "private use only" fixed wing flying machines - and those few gyroplanes certified to BCAR Section T seem to have a reasonable safety record - so I don't think I'd be too troubled as an Engineer by being involved with the certification and testing of a helicopter to a simplified standard like this, nor with using it to recommend that a Test Pilot were to fly it - with all of the normal caveats and precautions that go with a test programme.

Bear in mind the alternative is either no helicopter, or a US "experimental" system with no airworthiness oversight at-all. The main CofA codes are a very expensive overhead when embarking upon an R&D project and if this allows people in the UK or other countries to do helicopter development within a reasonable budget and timescale, whilst maintaining a reasonable degree of safety, I'm all in favour.

As to a low hours PPL - I don't think that the handling qualities requirements are that different between BCAR-VLH and JAR/FAR-27 anyhow, it's the burden of proof (and associated cost) that changes.

G

Staunch defender of the UK Permit to Fly system.

[CRAN]

Since there is nothing (sensible) in the market place in terms of kit helicopters, why don't we pool our 'collective' resources and develop a cheap kit between ourselves?

PM me if anyone is interested.

CRAN

[Shawn Coyle]

The problem with homebuilt helicopters is that the very market they are aimed at - those who can't afford to fly something more expensive - are those who shouldn't be flying them. Only because they don't have the experience.
I know of at least one person who taught themselves to fly a helicopter, but he had a great deal of time to do it over and a great deal of discipline.
A small light helicopter can kill you just as quickly and easily as small light airplane - and we have plenty of experience of that. The same safeguards and rules as the light homebuilt, kit built people use should be used on light helicopters.

[md 600 driver]

shawn
i thing you have possibly opened a hornets nest here in the uk and upset a few people
there are quite a few very experenced helicopter pilots flying rotorways there is an examiner and ex mil pilot who owns and flys one ,as well as lots of others




The problem with homebuilt helicopters is that the very market they are aimed at - those who can't afford to fly something more expensive - are those who shouldn't be flying them. Only because they don't have the experience

steve

[Cyclic Hotline]

A small light helicopter can kill you just as quickly and easily as small light airplane - and we have plenty of experience of that. The same safeguards and rules as the light homebuilt, kit built people use should be used on light helicopters.

Shawn, with respect, I would amend that statement that a small light helicopter can kill you MUCH faster than a small light airplane.

I have watched all kinds of contraptions that can be flown with minimal or no experience, including powered parachutes, ultralights and then homebuilt helicopters. Some of these machines can be flown quite safely, others are simply waiting for some unsuspecting individual to step into them for a quick trip to the afterlife.

In the latter category, I would include the Mini 500 (and others of that ilk) and every homebuilt gyro-copter I have ever seen, which offers the operator absolutely no protection whatsoever in the event of anything beyond a normal landing. :oh:

[Dave_Jackson]

The objective proposed by CRAN is a very interesting one. I would love to participate.

Unfortunately, the concerns mentioned by Shawn are very valid. The typical homebuilder/recreationalist lacks the funds, and/or the piloting, construction, and maintenance abilities to be a prospective customer.

Over the decades hundreds, if not thousands, have sought to achieve the same objective and the success rate is a couple of decimal places away from nil. IMHO, the possibility of success can only come about if there have been significant improvements during the ensuing years. Improvements such as; strong reliable lightweight materials, strong reliable lightweight power trains and engines, and last but far from least, significant improvements in rotorcraft aerodynamics.

Please excuse the above negativism, but my philosophy toward business decisions has been to look for the bad. The good can look after itself.


This forum might be an excellent place to initiate the discussions. The two primary considerations are probably;
1) The market for this craft.
2) A consensus as to principal characteristics of the craft.


'Just one persons opinion'

[nigel f]

I quite like the look and spec of the CHR Safari, and its gross weight is 680 KG, and it uses the O-320 or O-360 Engine,

But having never seen seen one close up I dont know a gret deal about them, I know that the Rotorway is too small for me.

Nigel

source
http://www.acehelicopter.com

[Genghis the Engineer]

Sadly I don't have the time, but I like the idea of setting up a group to develop a UK amateur helicopter. I'm personally quite comfortable from my own experience that it can be done safely - in fact in the UK you'd struggle to be allowe to do otherwise unless you completely ignore the existing rulebooks for amateur development.

But making money I think is optimistic - do it for the challenge, kudos and satisfaction - in the unlikely event you make any money from developing a light helicopter, I'd regard that as a huge and unexpected bonus.

Mind you, the same is probably true of most other aircraft design projects - it's not a peculiarity of helicopters.

G

[Shawn Coyle]

Please don't misunderstand my concern- in the proper hands, these can be delightlful and useful machines. The proper hands, by definition is someone who knows what they are doing, not just someone who thinks they know what they are doing.
You can't be mechanical in your flying technique for example - how do you learn not to be mechanical (and by that I mean "takeoff is defined as pulling up on the collective and waving the cyclic around and pushing in 3.2" of left pedal).

Having been peripherally involved in at least one of these devices, my first requirement for working with them was - you must set up a training school with experienced instructors who are not afraid to say no. Your reputation is on the line if you make a kit built helicopter. You must insist that your customers have at least a private pilot rating on helicopters before you sell them the kit.
Otherwise, you are risking your entire company on someone who doesn't really know what they are doing.
Rotorway, in the very beginning, had a book on how to teach yourself to fly a helicopter. They quite wisely withdrew the book.
If I could afford a light helicopter, I'd buy one - lots of advantages cost-wise.

[CRAN]

Shawn,

Regarding pilot skills etc, our regulations would ensure that this was the case in the UK. Our CAA are somewhat less relaxed than the FAA are with experimental rotorcraft.

CRAN

[Shawn Coyle]

CRAN:
While I appreciate and understand that, the record on gyrocopters in the UK makes the invovlement of the authority and their ability to control things just a bit suspect.

[MarcK]

I see in the introduction that this specification is for "amateur built helicopters", but it looks like one-off experimentals are not accomodated. There is enough near-destructive testing required that only a kit manufacturer willing to produce a sizeable run could meet the requirements. From what I know of Rotorway or CHR (not a lot), there is no current documentation of ultimate loads, etc., so even these manufacturers would have to do a lot of testing to be able to sell into the UK.

And they deliberately exclude the sexiest designs: The Jet-Exec and the Helicycle!

[swsw]

Hi,

Excuse my ignorance, but how is the Helicycle excluded in the BCAR requirements ?

I know the helicycle design is based on passing the latest certification requirements in the US, and I'm guessing the BCAR requirements roughly equate to these ?

If because of the Jet engines, don't the requirements make allowances for specs not stated, as long as they can be shown to be effective, that is meet the intent of the requirements and are safe ?

sw

[zeeoo]

Hi ! what are the degrees needed to participate ?
thanks

[Vfrpilotpb]

The only degree that you would need is that of:_

FTBFD, With Honours or the extended syllabus pass, Grade II

That will do for a start , actually very few of these about.

Vfr;)

[swsw]

No idea what you're talking about, but thanks for the replies.


Helicycle in the UK, why not ?


sw

[CRAN]

I don't know the answer first hand for the Helicycle case, but my guess would be that if they approached the CAA to bring it into the UK, the CAA would have turned around and said:

"Fine, here's the regulations that you need to prove it meets, come back when you've done it in a way acceptable to us"

In addition the CAA will charge large sums of money to look over the approval, which I guess is not justifiable based on the UK market for such a machine.

Hope this helps.

CRAN
:ok:

[Dave_Jackson]

I certify that the following statement may be correct. ;)

swsw,

The Helicycle is in the US experimental category. As such, the craft does not have to pass any regulations. In addition, the only requirement on the pilot is that he has been signed off to solo.

Dave,

[swsw]

Appreciate the replies,

At first look I couldn't see any reason why not either.

I guess more research is required.

Dave, the helicycle is certified in the experimental category but the info from Eagle R&D says the design meets the full FAA certification requirements, which is why its reputed to be the best kit helicopter yet.

Getting around the probable 6-figure cost to get our CAA to approve is a challenge though,


Thanks again,

sw

[CRAN]

Having spoken to the CAA I can assure you that there are ways to minimise the cost if you approach it correctly.

CRAN

[Dave_Jackson]

swsw,

The Helicycle is a very attractive little helicopter and Schramm had certainly acquired a lot of knowledge about recreational rotorcraft. However the, 'full FAA certification' statement might be questionable. Others on this forum, particularly Nick Lappos, are probably able to comment on the subject of FAA certification.

When I saw it, he was using a Rotax snowmobile engine. Rotax state that its engines, including the certified 914, are not to be used on rotorcraft. The current APU turbine may not be certifiable in this application.

Dave J.

[swsw]

Cran,

Maybe most of the costs are for a test pilot, are you up for it ?

:-)


sw

[CRAN]

My God! You'll get your legs broken with a comment like that on this forum! Pilots, expensive...don't be ridiculous! ;)

Seriously, though, the test pilots are not the expensive bit. The CAA's fees are high generally, but they are extremely high if your technical documentation is not in order. If you are going to get a kit helicopter through the UK regs, it really needs to have been designed with that objective in mind in order for it to be financially viable. If not you face paying to have the whole helicopter analysed and tested, both on the ground and in the air, certification/approval reports generated and then have the CAA pick over your work at over £100/man-hr.

For this reason I would be suprised if the helicycle or the safari ever managed to get a permit in the UK.

Hope this helps

CRAN
:ok:

[swsw]

Yes,

Its definately a challenge, maybe too far.

But on the other hand, the Rotorway managed to scrape through, I guess there's the clue to how it could be done ?


sw

[airborne_artist]

nigelf wrote:

I quite like the look and spec of the CHR Safari, and its gross weight is 680 KG, and it uses the O-320 or O-360 Engine,

Check out the dealer page on their site. It shows a UK dealer - in fact an individual who is part-way through a build. He's going for a permit, and told me "The permit to be honest is anyone's guess I have not really pushed yet to
see the outcome. One of their senior surveyors has looked at the build and
was fairly impressed with the quality of the helicopter but he still has his
bosses above him to convince."

The Masquito is also a very interesting prospect, but going nowhere right now. I had this from John Peascod:

"UK CAA certification of our helicopter has been essentially halted since
the summer of 2002. Although they haven't given us anything in writing, the
CAA has told us that unless we obtain an official "Design Organisation
Authority" (D.O.A.) they will not look at our certification dossier any
further. A DOA can be compared to an ISO 9001 for aeronautical design.
Masquito has been primarily funded by my family and one other partner for
the 8 years of its' existance, but we came to the stage that further
funding was no longer possible.

Two of the founding partners (the brothers Masschelein) who were
responsible for the development of the helicopter resigned their positions
as directors in September 2003. They were the only ones who had not
invested any of their money in Masquito. They started a new company to
build a fixed wing aircraft and left the rest of us to solve Masquito's
financial problems.........Unfortunately at this time, we have no idea when
the M80 might be able to obtain its' "Permit to Fly" in the U.K. or other
countries. We are now looking for a suitable partner to continue the
helicopter project, but it won't be an easy task.

Because of Masquito's very high debt, the rest of us decided to spend our
resources on developing and testing a new 2.6 liter engine suitable for
fixed wing aircraft and helicopters such as the Masquito prototype. For the
development and commercialisation of this modern technology aircraft engine
we have set up a new company. The website (www.ulpower.com) has just been
started, but the site will be expanded with more information as ground and
flight testing progress. The helicopter is going to need a powerful, light
weight and reliable engine anyway, so the helicopter's future will depend
on our engine's successful introduction into other aircraft first."

[slowrotor]

To Cran and others,
You might consider doing certification in the U.S. because the FAA does not charge for their time. At least they did'nt charge anything back in 1976 when I was working with them.
Then the U.S. Type certificate would be good worldwide with minor effort, I would guess.