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Astrodome
4th Nov 2004, 17:08
The curent situation whereby the Palestinians are denying what everyone else knows to be true regarding Yasser Arafat's condition is but the latest example of officials publicly denying a known fact.

Is it just me that finds this attitude arrogant and patronising?.

I continue to be amazed as to the reasons why it is felt necessary to deny a truth that is known worldwide.

Surely these people realise that in order for them to be taken seriously in future they need to be able to demonstrate honesty and integrity.

I am referring not just to the Palestinians but officials and Governments of all Countries.

We particularly seem to suffer from it in this Country so I guess in some ways we are becoming immune to it in the UK, but is it only me who find it irritating?

Any views?

con-pilot
4th Nov 2004, 17:10
I have just heard on CNN that Arafat is now in a coma. No other detaails.

airship
4th Nov 2004, 17:30
I can see why most reasonable people hate to think that Arafat is in a coma. If that was what Astrodome was alluding to?

It is relevant that should Arafat be in a coma for very long, questions about euthanasia, the right to die and how etc. might well arise.

Some factions may insist that the way he would have chosen to go would be by strapping 5kgs of explosives to his chest and...?!
And even if the Israelis decided to send in the bulldozers, just what is left of the PA's headquarters anyway...?!

After such a long time spent fighting the odds, he may eventually have decided: the last person to leave the room, please switch off the power... :} :uhoh:

con-pilot
4th Nov 2004, 17:43
Arafat is now on life support and is not expected to survive. There are also rumors that he is already dead, however the hospital is denying Arafat is dead.

I just heard that on FOX news.

Caslance
4th Nov 2004, 17:46
This is a pretty commonplace practice in any situation where political succession is uncertain, isn't it?

airship
4th Nov 2004, 18:21
So the trial of the first genetically-engineered virus targetted at a single individual has proved effective...?! :rolleyes:

Thank goodness foreigners in France can't donate blood. And one only has 2 haircuts a year, just before closing time...? :O

Parapunter
4th Nov 2004, 18:47
There is of course a long tradition of keeping deceased leaders pumping until an opportune moment. One recalls a punch cartoon:

Call yourself doctors? that's the 5th Brezhnev you've lost this month!

The Ivans of course being famous for it, what with Brezhnev being a vegetable for seven odd years before he was despatched. Andropov was mostly wired up to dialysis & of course Stalin was so paranoid, he had no successor & his death led to a fair few others before Kruschev got in.

Even Franco was kept going for months until the time was right to slip in the new government. These things are usually done for their vacuum filling properties as pointed out elsewhere.

djk
5th Nov 2004, 03:13
according to the Evening Standard website he was declared brain dead. although some sites were printing a denial statement and others declined to comment

tony draper
5th Nov 2004, 07:38
I think they are doing a El Cid with the old :mad:
Shows real dedication for a French President to shake hands with a corpse.
:cool:

Curious Pax
5th Nov 2004, 10:23
May or may not be deliberate, but it gives Palestinians a chance to come to terms with what is about to happen, and more importantly gives their politicians chance to sort out the process of succession before he actually dies. IF it works out that way then maybe there will be less violence as part of the process than if this had all been very sudden, which wherever your sympathies lie must be a good thing.

Capt.KAOS
5th Nov 2004, 11:23
the latest example of officials publicly denying a known fact. Are you a doctor? Are you there? A patient is dead when he/she is declared dead by the medical authorities. People are living like plants, however not officially dead. I'm sure it has to do with who will take power and how to deal with Hamas.

More interesting to know is now Arafat is gone, how will it effect the peace process.

Grandpa
5th Nov 2004, 13:51
1st : Who will take over?
Why not Marwan Barghutti, which leaves the problem to Israelis?

2nd : Where will he be buried?
Why not Jerusalem, which................(same)..........?

And you can add to the list of "survivors" Marshall Tito.

Wino
5th Nov 2004, 16:03
peace process can't get any worse.

Violence might increase for a while, but Arafat was finished in the process. So after a period where violence MAY increase there will be a chance to revive the peace process with a new leader (even one who chooses to step up the violence for a while to increase his "credibility")

Remember the first thing Sadat did was have another war with Israel...

The peace process had ZERO chance as long as arafat was alive, for among other reasons, because he had no plan of succession, so anything agreed to by arafat, might not have been followed by his successor.

Cheers
Wino

tony draper
5th Nov 2004, 16:13
Apologies to Byron

Posterity will ne'er survey
A nobler scene than this.
Here lie the bones of Arafat.
Stop passer by, and piss.

allan907
5th Nov 2004, 16:14
So, they're only now declaring Arafat brain dead? I thought that happened years ago.

newarksmells
5th Nov 2004, 22:28
The problem with Arafat, apart from the coma, is where the Palestinians bury him. According to the Muslim faith, a burial must be performed within 24 hours of death. Having said that, they can't pull the plug, make an official announcement etc. until they have permission from a country that will allow his burial. I heard Egypt was a possibility.

Newarksmells

West Coast
5th Nov 2004, 22:37
Now if only Sharon would move on perhaps the current cycle of violence will lessen or cease. I have no long term hopes in my life time for a lasting peace however, no matter the Chairmen, the PM or the President.

Nigerian Expat Outlaw
5th Nov 2004, 23:05
To return to your original theme, I totally agree with you. I have just got back from my local (nice pint or two of 5X) and everyone thinks the same way, i.e. we are surrounded by hypocrites who just want to do a combination of please their so called "partners" and safeguard the oil. There have been more people killed in Darfur than in both Gulf wars, but nobody semes to be rushing to sort that out.

I love my local:ok:

El Grifo
6th Nov 2004, 14:53
Drapsey and Allan907 :-

Try coming out with that crap when Sharon finally pops his clogs and see where that gets you !!

Interesting post WC, maybe you have been misjudged !!

:cool:

El Grifo
6th Nov 2004, 15:13
Drapsey, all I said was :-

"Try coming out with that crap when Sharon finally pops his clogs and see where that gets you"

Nothing more !!

tony draper
6th Nov 2004, 15:18
Ok Mr Grifo I will delete same.

Danny
6th Nov 2004, 15:27
For a slightly more in-depth view of the mess Arafat is leaving behind and the possible players in the end game (from an Israeli intelligence perspective) read on:Funeral Arrangements Begin before Arafat’s Death Is Announced

DEBKAfile Special Report (http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=931)

November 6, 2004, 1:21 AM (GMT+02:00)

From the moment on Thursday, November 4, when a French official stood outside Percy military hospital and solemnly declared “Mr. Arafat is not dead,” preparations rushed forward for his funeral. The immediate outcome was a split that rent the Palestinian leadership and Arafat’s associates into two camps.

Jihad Islami, Hamas, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and the other Palestinian organizations with a vested interest in continuing their campaign of terror against Israel were quick to plant a concocted rumor in the Palestinian street and mosques that Israel had slowly poisoned Arafat. This stratagem was intended to fan the flames of anti-Israeli violence and discredit moderate Palestinian leaders with thoughts of dialogue or peace – or even the ceasefire which Mahmoud Abbas is trying to broker. It was meant to make the Palestinians angry enough to refuse any accommodation with the Jewish state and insist on stepping up its war. This would tilt the succession struggle against the moderates and for the champions of continuing confrontation.

The failure of the Percy hospital’s physicians to publicly diagnose the ailment that brought Arafat to their institution – contrary to custom for public figures - gave wings to all kinds of vicious rumors about his illness. It enabled the Palestinian extremist factions to blacken Israel to gain an edge in round one of their fight for the succession.

DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s sources in Ramallah and Paris describe the first camp as consisting of his wife, Suha Arafat, and personal aide Ramzi Khouri, who share a longstanding bond as members of the Christian faith, joined by Arafat’s nephew Nasser al-Kidwa, the Palestinian UN observer, and Dr. Amar Daka, his personal physician.

Only this foursome was allowed near his bed. They will decide when to disconnect the life support system and declare Yasser Arafat dead. By French law, the final word rests with his wife, Suha Arafat. She is buffeted by contrasting pressures from Palestinian leaders as well as considerations of her own financial future. The funeral will be arranged by Palestinian officials in consultation with the Israeli government.

After Arafat was hospitalized in Paris, members of the second camp, the confidential aides who accompanied him to Paris, were thrust aside and not permitted to visit him – among them, Mohammed Rashid, probably the only person privy to his personal financial secrets, his bureau chief, spokesman constant shadow Nabil Abu Rodeina, and Mohammed Dahlan, the protégé- turned-rival and former head of Palestinian “security” services in the Gaza Strip.

Once the funeral is out of the way, this second group will step into the leadership contest.

In Ramallah, Palestinian leaders sat in around-the clock conclave in a desperate attempt to make the transition orderly and agree on the funeral arrangements. To bridge the period of uncertainty, they assigned prime minister Ahmed Qureia with provisional responsibility for security and finances in the Palestinian Authority, and former prime minister Mahmoud Abbas the chair of the Palestinian Liberation Organization’s Executive Committee.

Israel has demanded that a burial with the trappings of a state funeral must take place in the Gaza Strip. The Palestinians, with some support from their European friends, are insisting on his burial in Abu Dis, the Palestinian suburb of Jerusalem that has a view of Temple Mount. Arafat had a building constructed there to house a future Palestinian parliament. It stands empty and could serve as a tomb. In Gaza, the funeral procession would follow the route taken by Arafat a decade ago on his arrival there from Tunis in the wake of the Oslo peace accords. Qureia will be in Gaza Saturday to discuss funeral arrangements with the local heads of organizations.

Both venues pose colossal security problems. Who will control the hordes of Palestinians on the move between the West Bank and Gaza Strip to attend the funeral? Who will guarantee the safety of the VIPs coming to the funeral – Western and Arab?

It has been suggested in some capitals, including Washington, that the funeral and the presence of international figures will provide an opportunity for discreet diplomacy. Americans officials may come to show their respect for the Palestinian people and mark the end of the Arafat era. They will advise the Palestinians that, if they can consign their dead leader’s campaign of terror to the past, they will be granted a new beginning on the basis of the revived Middle East roadmap to peace. The clock may thenl be turned back to June 2003, when President George W. Bush endorsed the roadmap at the Sharm el Sheikh Arab summit and the Aqaba conference in the presence of Jordan’s King Abdullah, Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon and Mahmoud Abbas, then Palestinian prime minister.

But there is no sign that Palestinian terror assaults on Israel will be held in abeyance even for the interim. As long as they are in office, the two veteran Palestinian politicos may claim they are trying hard to stem the bloodshed and revive peace diplomacy - but neither commands the popular support, military strength or financial clout to make good on either intention.

In contrast, the forces dedicated to continuing Arafat’s path of terror – Fatah-Tanzim, al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, Hamas, Jihad Islami, the Popular Front-PFLP, the Popular Resistance Committees which rule the southern part of the Gaza Strip – command a flock of many thousands of terrorists and suicide bombers.

Arafat structured the Palestinian terrorist machine around an operational nucleus of personnel drawn from the Palestinian Authority’s security services. These officers wear two hats and draw two paychecks. It is a tightly woven fabric that has proven impossible to unravel. Qureia and Abbas may genuinely try to institute reforms by taking charge of the security services. But there is no longer any way to separate out the security officers from the terrorist networks. They will be thwarted by opponents commanding a well-oiled machine of terror and access to funding sources independent of the Palestinian Authority - Syria, Iran and the Lebanese Hizballah. None of them will hold back funds from radical Palestinian elements fighting to step into Arafat’s shoes.

It is therefore more than likely that Qureia and Abbas will decide not to risk their necks by standing up to Arafat’s terrorist protégés and their external backers - or attempt to reach meaningful negotiations. They will prefer to turn a blind eye and survive. This eventuality will bring the Israel-Palestinian conflict back to the post-Aqaba summit impasse when Abbas did not lift a finger to stem Palestinian terror and the roadmap was allowed to gather dust.

Israel is braced for a highly volatile post-Arafat period marked by accelerated terrorist assaults by the Palestinian factions struggling to fill his place and grab his fortune. They will vie for control by outdoing one another in attacks on Israel. The Israeli high command has prepared contingency plans for this period under the codename “New Page.” Clearly, no one can tell at this point where the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is going from here or whether the new page will be more or less blood-spattered than the ones written by Yasser Arafat

419
6th Nov 2004, 15:50
Many years ago, I was told that it is considered a great honour for a Muslim to die during Ramadan, and even greater if they died during Eid, which begins in about 8 days. (someone correct me if this is not true).

If this is the case, do you think that Arafat is possibly being kept alive by a machine to allow for this to happen?

419

Danny
10th Nov 2004, 00:40
More shennanigans? Talk about denying the truth. As a few realists may concur, if you repeat a lie often enough then it becomes 'fact'. A tactic the PLO and other radical palestinian groups have learnt and used quite successfully since the Oslo accords.Chirac Spurns Qureia, Abbas - Throws Support behind Palestinian Radicals

DEBKAfile Exclusive Report (http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=933)

November 9, 2004, 10:19 PM (GMT+02:00)

On Monday, November 8, it looked as though, after ten days, the brawl within the Palestinian leadership over Yasser Arafat’s body and ill-gotten fortune might be running out of mind-boggling maneuvers, when French president Jacques Chirac stepped in. Whereas until now, he had insisted on the whole mess being removed from France tout de suite, Monday, November 8, he saw a way of using the arrival of present and former Palestinian prime ministers, Ahmed Qureia (Abu Ala) and Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen), to pick up points for France and score a few against the US interest. After a consultation with his Middle East advisers, he decided to back Suha Arafat all the way and at the same time reach out to the radical, rejectionist wing of the Palestinian camp - PLO politburo chief Farouk Kaddumi, Arafat’s close confidant Hanni al Hassan, Force 17 commander and senior terrorist chief Col. Feisal Abu Srakh, as well as Mohammed Jihad, an important Jordanian Palestinian general.

Abu Ala and Abu Mazen had been deeply shamed by the hysterical pre-dawn outburst of Arafat’s wife Suha against them both over al Jazeera Arabic TV. She accused them of an “intrigue to bury Abu Amar (Arafat) alive,” and declared her husband was well and would return to lead his people. “I appeal to you to be aware of the scale of the conspiracy,” she shouted.

Ordinary Palestinians were furious. One asked ironically what sort of uprising had she conducted in Paris, where she has lived alone most of her married life. She was accused of manipulatively withholding information about Arafat’s medical condition, preventing the Percy military hospital from giving out real information on his mysterious ailment and providing fertile ground for wild speculation.

Swallowing their chagrin, Abu Ala and Abu Mazen flew to the French capital to sort out the imbroglio. It was clear to them all that Arafat could not be maintained on life support systems beyond a couple of days, that his body must be removed and a funeral arranged to salvage the last shreds of the Palestinian leader’s dignity. To accomplish this, Suha would have to be paid off.

DEBKAfile’s sources learned she had been prepared to demand their signatures on documents drafted by her French lawyers guaranteeing her multimillion dollar inheritance and pension - as the price for switching off life support systems.

But the two Palestinian officials were further humiliated when they arrived at the Percy hospital gates. French medical spokesman Christian Estripeau, who was back on duty after being withdrawn, intoned the only meaningless bulletin permitted him: “His condition is stable… Mr. Arafat’s condition forces us to limit visits.”

Mrs Arafat still held the key to their access to Arafat - except on her terms. With the French president behind her, those terms can only become stiffer. And by grinding Abu Ala and Abu Mazen down, she is doing her part in enhancing the standing of their radical rivals.

tony draper
10th Nov 2004, 00:44
Apparently he has slipped into a coma, which makes a change from him slipping into his body guards.
:rolleyes:

Danny
10th Nov 2004, 00:48
And to follow on:Suha’s Payout

DEBKAfile’s Exclusive Report (http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=934)

November 10, 2004, 1:57 AM (GMT+02:00)

Tuesday, November 11, Suha Arafat’s French lawyers and former Palestinian prime minister Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen), struck a deal. It fixed the Palestinian Authority’s financial obligations to Yasser Arafat’s widow and let him finally die unambiguously and in peace at the end of a morbid tug of war between his wife and Palestinian Authority leaders.

But this did not happen immediately. The confusion surrounding Arafat’s condition for eleven days – officially alive, unofficially dead – was to be sustained a little longer – mainly to save Mrs Arafat’s face.

The settlement allowed a funeral to be arranged on “Orphan Friday” of Ramadan, November 12 (as DEBKAfile reported earlier) – unless a new crisis pops up. Our sources have seen some of the principle terms of the Palestinian accord with Suha Arafat.

1. This clause has already taken place. Before the Palestinian delegation which visited the hospital left Paris, foreign minister Nabil Shaath again assured the media that Arafat is still alive and “his brain, heart and lungs are still functioning.” This was necessary to prove Suha Arafat had not lied when she appeared that morning live on Arabic TV Al Jazeera to accuse those same officials of conspiring to bury her husband alive. The deal provided for the announcement of Arafat’s death to be held back for late Tuesday night or Wednesday, November 10.

2. The widow will attend the funeral. Abu Mazen insisted on her following the Palestinian leader’s bier for the sake of appearances.

3. Last July, Arafat sent his wife $11 million to cover her living expenses and those of their daughter for six months - $1.8 million per month. The new accord guarantees her the same allowance from the Palestinian Authority as a regular annual remittance, i.e. $22 million per annum, for the rest of her life. Abu Mazen and prime minister Ahmed Qureia (Abu Ala) signed on the dotted line, although they have no notion how the penniless Palestinian Authority faced with a people in dire poverty can possibly stump up this kind of money.

DEBKAfile’s Paris sources offer an exclusive peek at Suha Arafat’s lifestyle in the French capital. She owns a smart villa on one of the most elegantly affluent streets in the world, Rue Fauborg St. Honore, while also maintaining a lavish private suite at the five-star Hotel Le Bristol, which after a multimillion dollar refurbishment claims to outclass the Paris Ritz, the Four Seasons and even George V. The upkeep of the Bristol suite she maintains for “business” was included in her widow’s “pension.”

After the Palestinian officials settled with Arafat’s wife, Shaat went before the media to admit that Arafat had been in a deep coma since last Wednesday, November 3, meaning that all the Palestinian communiqués since then, describing him laughing with doctors, reading the Koran etc., were arrant falsehoods. He ruled out poisoning and cancer as the causes of Arafat’s illness and laid the blame for his “digestive disorders” on - who else? Israel, whose army had besieged Arafat’s quarters and forced the 75-year old leader to subsist on too little oxygen and in poor sanitary conditions.

Some facts might shed some light on this point.

For three and a half years, since Israeli troops withdrew from Arafat’s headquarters and private apartment at the end of the 2002 Defensive Shield operation, Palestinians have been building, remodeling and refurbishing the ”battered” seat of Palestinian government tirelessly and undisturbed. No one stopped Arafat from moving into any part of his spanking new compound at any time. He could have ordered bathrooms made of the finest Italian marble whenever he wanted. He was not short of funds; witness the generous allowance he made his absent wife. No one would have prevented him going out for a stroll in Ramallah, taking the air in its parks or dining in its restaurants. Arafat chose to confine himself to two wretched rooms to show the world how badly Israel was treating him and win the world’s sympathy.

For the same reason, he ordered the Palestinians to leave the shell pocks in the walls of his quarters unrepaired, just as the late Syrian President Hafez Assad left the Golan town of Kuneitra in ruins as a sort of theme park for displaying Israel’s alleged misdeeds to tourists.

Arafat did emerge once for a “state” visit to the West Bank town of Jenin. His welcome there was far short of expectations and he never tried any such visits again. With a multi-billion fortune at his disposal, Arafat invariably appeared in public in grubby, crumpled khakis – mainly because the aides who served him and his finely tailored associates were not overly concerned with his welfare.

The funeral plans as they stand at this moment are as follows:

On Friday, November 12, Arafat will be buried at the Ramallah headquarters he lived in. So far, the Palestinians have not applied to Egypt or Jordan to permit a stopover for the coffin in Cairo or Amman, whence it will be flow by helicopter to Ramallah. One of these requests will probably be received Wednesday or Thursday. Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak made it clear this week that no formal ceremonies would be allowed in his capital; the coffin would be placed simply at Arab League Headquarters in Cairo.

Both Abu Mazen and Abu Ala, anxious to avoid calling on Israel for assistance in dealing with the Arab VIPs expected for the funeral, hope they can be accommodated in Amman before being flown by helicopter to Ramallah and flown back immediately after the ceremonies are over, seeing Israel only from the air.

By Saturday, November 13, the funeral will be behind them and Palestinian Muslims can enjoy the three-day Eid el Fitr festival that comes at the end of Ramadan.

Their leaders, Abbas and Qureia, will use the time to cement their hold on Palestinian government. They do not intend making good on their promise in Paris to let the Palestinian legislature Speaker Fathi Rouh act as president until after an election 60 days hence. What they do plan is an emergency session of the legislature to pass a measure postponing elections until further notice in view of the crisis caused by Arafat’s death. The lawmakers will be asked to choose a new president to succeed him. Together, the pair commands a majority in the house.

That is the plan. But, as has become manifest in the last 11 days, the Palestinians are gifted with a limitless capacity for shooting off at a tangent without reason or notice.