Australian University Aviation Degrees

[Downburst]

Many of the Australian Universities get out of Aviation degrees which is a pity because Universities in other countries start offering these degrees and it's not only the USA but the UK, Germany, Sweden (Lund University) and even the Ukraine and Russia.

The real problem is the way the Australian Universities go about teaching the aeronautical sciences and arts. From what I have seen it is apparent that the Universities train students in the same manner some mediocre aero club would do it - exactly according to the CASA Day VFR syllabus and then as per ATP syllabus with some bull**** on top. They do not understand that the CASA syllabus is not a gospel but the MINIMUM standard requirement and an airline is surely not satisfied with the minimum. May be they got avice from some ex flight instructors who weren't good enough and got the sack somewhere.

In any case, in most Universities the direction is determined by people who have little or no flying background. Those who are pilots are usually either casual or on contract. The worst case I have seen in Newcastle where someone who is really an engineer pretends that he can teach airlines pilots how to do their job whilst he has no flying background whatso ever. This fellow teaches aerodynamics, propulsion and aircraft systems and, oh surprise, most of hist students fail the CASA exams. They have an experienced ex airline pilot in the University but he is only on a contract that fellow doesn't get a word in anyway.

It almost looks like that some subjects taught in the Universities have little relevance but are taught to provide "a job for the boys". Newcastle offers courses in non-destructive testing and structural fatique management in a pilot course which is obviously only taught to give the engineer a full time job.

Unless a University is ready to do the job properly and not just produce "jobs for the boys" it is better that Universities leave the aviation area. If pilots want a degree they should study for a science degree which will help them to cope with the extensive and demanding training by an airline. In any case, most airlines prefer people with a science degree (physics) anyway.

[maxgrad]

why did you do the course then.
did you check into the course syllabus and instructors prior starting, or just go there with expectations unchecked?

note... If you aren't doing the course ignore above.

personally I think a good business management degree would be of more use

[Downburst]

Sorry, Maxgrad, I didn't do the course, I already hold an ATP and I am involved with an international airline but I was looking for some colaboration with a University.

The choice is now Lund University in Sweden.

[locusthunter]

...not to mention that employers including airlines in Australia don't seem to give a ****e about degrees...

[maxgrad]

agree with locusthunter
am in industry too with atp's and believe that at present the uni courses offered are are good way of generating money for the establishment's involved and in SOME cases just teach graduates to look down their nose at drivers' with no degree.

again at this stage I believe that a good business management degree will be more benefit than the av degree.

probably cheaper too

[U2]

Downburst

I think which university you do it at matters alot. Its just like 'which flight school you do your training.'

Some universtiy degrees I believe were just set up in order for pilots to get jobs with Qantas and the like. However, other s have been developed from established departments and offer higher standards. As a rule of thumb, those universities offering high levels than 'bachelors' are better (MY opinion).

Lastly, university is about academics. If you want to learn how to pass an exam than go to a theory school. If you want to learn how to fly go to a flying school. If you want to learn a trade than go to trade-school or tafe.

Degrees are part of the learning process.

Just thing at the remarkable work done by James Reason and IATA.


My two cents

U2.

[drshmoo]

Downburst, every degree in any feild is not perfect and requires constant change to make them better. There are some pretty ordinary Aviation degrees out there but just out of interest apart from Newcastle uni, have you researched perhaps UNSW? I never went to Newcastle uni but several of my flying associates have and they generally have shown a high standard proffessionally. But I would and did go somewhere else. You seem to throw a large blanket over the aviation degrees in this country. You say that some subjects were designed to give the old boys jobs eg that fatigue management subject listed in your post. Well Isn't broadening your knowledge outside that of the cockpit worth it? In my Av degree we did similar subjects and although I found some of these subjects mildly repetitive the majority of our course took a fair bit from these such subjects.

Point taken that the CASA sylabus is the bare minimum! We all should aim higher.

[TIMMEEEE]

I hold a degree in applied science and another in medical science.

They both mean squat unless I can pass the pilot selection exams or whatever required by most airlines (QF/CX/EK etc).

Degrees are nice to have, thats about it.
They got me employment in various fields before flying and were requirements for the job.

Having a university degree in aviation however does not make you as employable as another candidate with real/more experience.

[*Lancer*]

Downburst,

I'm confused. You say that "most Universities the direction is determined by people who have little or no flying background..." Yet the Engineer you speak of is not the undergraduate program director. Are you suggesting that the current program director also has little or no flying background? :ooh:

If pilots want a degree, why can't we go to Lund University as well? Obviously, if done right, degrees still have their place.

Lancer

[locusthunter]

Obviously, if done right, degrees still have their place.
...well...that depends...

10 or so years ago when Aviation degrees came in, they were marketed as what "employers will want."
The industry had a chance to embrace them... but in my opinion, in Australia, the vote has been in the negative.

In my time studying and teaching at a university, not once did any airline, QF, VB, Ansett, smaller aviation company, CASA, Airservices Australia or anyone else show even the vaguest interest in Aviation degree graduates (for either flying or non-flying jobs). Not one visit from a stray HR person. Not one brochure or vote of approval. Nothing. This appeared to also be the case across almost all, if not all, universities in Australia.

In my experience in the industry since, I have never seen any employer care that I had an undergrad Aviation degree and subsequent post graduate study. For some people it has seemed to have a negative impact on their employability.

The value of an Aviation degree- SQUAT. Who's fault is this? The universities or the major industry players?
I wish I had an extra 2 years or so experience instead of study...

...maxgrad is correct ...do a business/management degree and if you still want to do an Aviation degree read a good CRM book.

...however, I should add that I can now write small essays on pprune, generally without spelling mistakes.

...And if pushed, I can even calculate the mathematical probability of the time that I spend in the queue of the local Centrelink office before I get served!

...maybe my degree has had some excellent Aviation value in it after all... "it\'s not what you do, but how you do it."





:ok:

[*Lancer*]

locusthunter,

You summed it up yourself: "it's not what you do, but how you do it"

People get hung up (in all industries) on what a degree means in terms of their employability. However, it's what you have learned from your experience at University that should matter, not what the piece of paper says.

Degrees don't open doors - people do! :D

Lancer

[locusthunter]

Degrees don't open doors - people do!

And this is particularly true in these situations:

a) You want to get into the pub

b) You've lost the donk and you're on fire!

c) The boss has come back early from vacation...the premises is littered with empty beer cans and half eaten pizza, the stereo is on 10, your FO with his significant other is naked in the bathroom, while the office girl is in the process of photocopying her bum... and the only thing between you and nil consequences is a closed back door.

;)

[Downburst]

You fellows all have good points. Australian airlines possibly don't give a **** about degrees because pilots having a degree is not yet common. In Europe most airlines expect pilots to have a degree but no, not an aviation degree. They do prefer a science degree but learning about aviation is to be taught by aviators. Firstly the background knowledge makes it easier (and cheaper) for the airline to do the final training and secondly those who had to learn how to investigate and research (hopefully) can familiarize themselves with new technology and don't need to be spoonfed. You see, Lancer, Universities definitely have a place.

I just can't understand that Universities overseas liaise with the industry and put up appropriate programs whist it appears to me that Australian Universities just imitate the Technical and Further Education colleges. May be the Universities don't have the staff with the right skills or, alternatively, may be the higher ranking academics won't listen to anyone?

I agree too that all depends what University to talk to but I found that all of them here basically run some series of courses the same way as the Technical and Further Education system does it and I can't see the difference. Both seem to teach people how to pass exams rather than how to manage an aircraft on a trip.

The funny thing is that I was told by a pilot working with Qantas that they had great hopes for the aviation degree but reality didn't match their expectations. The possibly most serious accusation the fellow made was that the Universities will not be told by the industry what to do and what to teach - they know better.

Broadening your knowledge outside the cockpit is always good provided you have the required knowledge and skills sown up, I think.

Lancer, I did meet the fellow in Newcastle who took over and he is very competent and qualified. He still holds a licence. However, he is apparently only on a contract and will leave when the current degree is over but the other fellows with no aviation background design new courses in which they are trying to tell licenced pilots how to do their job....

The engineer told me he wants to do "LOFT" training. Hell, LOFT stands for LINE oriented flight training = FLIGHT LINE. Only an air operator has a flight line. Haven't seen many Boeings at the Uni. The bloke doesn't even know what LOFT is.

Considering that the fellow in charge now might leave by the end of the year what is one stuck with?

Not to worry, I find it only sad. I am working for a European airline and, being Australian, I thought Australia always was the choice for aviation training. Obviously those days are gone. Even the largest training organisation in Australia now is foreign owned.

Pity, Australian trained pilots used to be the best, they did not only know what they are doing but why (unlike the US pilots).

[Transition Layer]

Downburst,

You seem to be very hung up on the pitfalls of the Newcastle Uni course in particular. Maybe you are right - last i heard the course had been terminated.

I really do think you should avoid associating all the Uni's with Newcastle. I'm not bagging the joint, only speaking from my own experiences elsewhere. I was never taught any BAK/PPL/CPL/ATPL subjects by anyone other than a very qualified ground instructor with years of experience, both in the air and on the ground. These people were not University academics but pilots/former pilots!!!

The University academics taught the other subjects, airline management, CRM, engineering type subjects, many with huge amounts of experience in their field.

The funny thing is that I was told by a pilot working with Qantas that they had great hopes for the aviation degree but reality didn't match their expectations. The possibly most serious accusation the fellow made was that the Universities will not be told by the industry what to do and what to teach - they know better.

The REALLY funny thing, is I know one University actually has an Industry Advisory Committee that meets once a year for exactly that purpose. It is to gain feedback on the course from industry and encourage some forward thinking. Maybe that's why they are still around?

Cheers,
TL

[locusthunter]

whist it appears to me that Australian Universities just imitate the Technical and Further Education colleges. May be the Universities don't have the staff with the right skills or, alternatively, may be the higher ranking academics won't listen to anyone?

...No the Uni's were not imitating TAFEs...there were some excellent degrees in the mid-late 90s....UNSW, UniSA, RMIT, just to mention a few. They had solid subjects and they had their finger on the pulse. The Uni's did liase with industry. It was the mentality of the industry. In some cases the CFIs within Uni programs were not active and enthusiastic enough about degrees.

..and let's face it, all it would have taken was one of the major airlines or perhaps two regionals to say - "Yes we want pilots with degrees..." or even "we prefer pilots with degrees..."
But the airlines did not want that...The industry did not embrace degrees and hence we got all the closures of degree programs around the country...and a situation where Aviation degrees are not valued.

Is it possible that if QF had have said- "we are going to recruit pilots from Aviation degree programs", the TER entry score fro Aviation at UNSW (for example) would have been closer to Law or Medicine?? That way the airline (and industry) would have attracted some of the brightest young men and women into the profession.

[drshmoo]

From Downburst
Not to worry, I find it only sad. I am working for a European airline and, being Australian, I thought Australia always was the choice for aviation training. Obviously those days are gone. Even the largest training organisation in Australia now is foreign owned. Pity, Australian trained pilots used to be the best, they did not only know what they are doing but why (unlike the US pilots).


Pretty big call from someone who doesnt live in the counrty.

Mate I suggest that when you finnaly do find that uni that meets your standards, you take up a course ignorance101





Ps TL PA28 4eva

[Transition Layer]

drshmoo,

Did you actually pass any uni subjects apart from "professionalgeeups101"?

By the way, why don't you update your address in your profile to represent your glorious return to the Eastern Suburbs cafe latte social scene?

TL

[Downburst]

Transition layer, don't worry about drshmoo, he obviously wants some kind of a "flame-war" and this forum is too good for it. Just let him be God's gift to aviation, some people need that.

[locusthunter]

Universities are businesses.

They are NOW....however there was a time...

[U2]

There are some industries that employ graduates and pay them more than pilots. They get free training, welfare and holidays. The only catch is that you need to have studied in that field.

These great jobs are extremely competitive and require education specifically to those industries. Some examples are medicine, dentistry, law and engineering and until recently I.T. Many of these degrees are very hard to get into as they require high entry scores.

Just about anybody who got average marks at school can get entry into a lower ranking degree such as aviation, commerce or the arts etc.

If someone has already completed a degree, they can get into these other more completitve degrees.

So for those who have got aviation degrees and sometime down the track get out of the industry for whatever reason, they can go back to uni and be in another field in a few years earning good money.

For those who only hold a pilots licence, if and when you leave the industry you'll have to line up a traineeship or be an apprentice.

Or else just go get any old job.

In other words, a degree is a stepping stone to other lines of work, whereas a pilots licence is very limiting in scope of employability. If students learn't subjects in aviation degrees that were entirely pilot orientated then there would be no point. They would learn nothing. Universities are academic in nature, not necessarily practical in application.

U2

[drshmoo]

U2,If someone has already completed a degree, they can get into these other more completitve degrees


Thats on the money.
One day probably in the not to distant future when my liver colapses and they take my medical I'll be able to retrain and further my study and my future job prospects.

[locusthunter]

One day probably in the not to distant future when my liver colapses and they take my medical I'll be able to retrain and further my study and my future job prospects.

...funny you mention that, I was thinking of selling my liver to try and get a decent job in this industry...:ugh:

[locusthunter]

One day probably in the not to distant future when my liver colapses and they take my medical I'll be able to retrain and further my study and my future job prospects.

...funny you mention that, I was thinking of selling my liver to try and get a decent job in this industry...:ugh:

[geeup]

Correct me if im wrong but the engineer (from newcastle) you refer to is he the same man who was head of the change over of Mirages to FA18s? And as for sims and training is he not the same man who designed and built the Williamstown FA18 sim?I also believe his brother is a check and training captain with Cathay Pacific on the are Airbus. As for flight training i think you will find he was a RAAF pilot before switching to engineering.

:eek:

As for that fantastic other lecture with airline experience perhaps you should ask why he stopped flying for HAZELTONs and was not picked up by any other company that operates SAABs.:ok:

Perhaps you should get all your facts straight on the people you refer to before running them in to the ground!:mad:

GO NEWCASTLE!:}