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View Full Version : Channex selling selling F27's,crews & engs as a package !!.


twang
2nd Nov 2004, 17:31
It seems that Channex are selling their remaing F27's with crews/engs included in the package :confused: . Very strange !.
The deal seems to be go with the aircraft or receive the order of the boot, surely this can't be legit ?.

RoyHudd
2nd Nov 2004, 18:40
Unlikely. Technically not feasible without full compliance of all people concerned.

fokkerplod
2nd Nov 2004, 20:48
Hi

just been announced that ACL have bought Channex's remaining

F27 ' s Flight Crew, Engineers, and Maintenance Facilities.

Under a TUPE Transfer all staff to retain current pay and conditions (higher than ACL's (ex BAC Staff!!!))

Its ACL's way of taking the Royal Mail Contracts Too!!!!

woptb
2nd Nov 2004, 21:05
The people have been given no choice ,move or walk. It is possible that this is legal, but it is certainly not MORAL !!!!.
There are managers & directors who should hang their heads in shame at the treatment being meted out to these people .

Harrier46
2nd Nov 2004, 21:57
This purchase was flagged on the freight forum several months ago by IDC (but cannot find it now, probably censored like many other tasty items!) It has therefore been an open secret for some time and everybody concerned has had plenty of time to jump ship. Just surprised anybody's still left.

woptb
2nd Nov 2004, 22:25
Why should they have jumped ship after all this is a successful growing company that rewards loyalty :O

Sick Squid
2nd Nov 2004, 22:52
Just hunt a bit better... there is NO censorship of "tasty" items on this board, posts are only removed to the Admin. forum for potential legal reasons (c.f Ryanair recently,) deleted by the original contributor, or as quite often happens merged into related threads.

This board would not last one month if such censorship was applied, and none of the moderators would have any part of such a policy. I get a bit fed up at snide little cheap remarks like that.

Now, back to the topic.

loveJet
3rd Nov 2004, 09:18
Does this have any implications for the Bournemouth flights? Will they be operated by ACL or a change aircraft type with Chan-Ex?

Harrier46
3rd Nov 2004, 12:07
The routes (F27) go with the aircraft and crews, a package deal.

Diesel8
3rd Nov 2004, 14:28
I may be missing something, but is it not better that they go as a package as supposed to getting the boot?

Harrier46
3rd Nov 2004, 14:40
F27 crews look to progress onto the 737 and A300 fleets within Channel therefore this is not good news for them, after all there are far fewer positions to step up to in ACL and who is going to take priority, the newcomers or the current crews. They may be secure but for how long and of course the old saying "better the devil you know". Interesting times ahead.

sick squid
Apologies for "snide remark". I have looked further but thread has definitely gone, but so too has the author (IDC) and all his threads are inaccessible so presumably that is the answer.

we_never_change
3rd Nov 2004, 18:14
With the F27s going, what does the future hold for the A300s? Are these to be disposed of also so Channel Express/Dart Group are left solely with a B737-300 fleet?

Contractors also operates some Airbus A300s.

WNC

Harrier46
3rd Nov 2004, 22:19
The A300s are staying for now, while they are profitable. However there was some belt-tightening on the fleet a few months ago with a few redundancies. Since the EU expanded recently there have been more pressures on the UPS contract due to the extra freighters and operators now able to operate freely in the EU. The UPS contract is not so lucrative as it once was.

Audreyslackey
3rd Nov 2004, 22:46
Apparently MNG were bidding against ACL, MNG wanted the aircraft and ACL wanted the routes. ACL obviously wanted the routes more, question is will the crews find themselves operating to the Irish FTLs.
On the ground side there is now little to stop the whole operation moving North. One or two senior staff have already been "requested" to make the move but apparently are not too happy.

Norman Stanley Fletcher
4th Nov 2004, 00:32
As a former Channex Herald pilot I am both interested and saddened to hear of this bad news. Many of these F27 guys were hanging on in there to become 737 pilots with the company and now find themselves stuck in the position of being condemned to life in the turboprop world for the indefinite future.

In Channex, loyalty was a one way transaction. There is no doubt that Meeson is a hard-nosed businessman who has a long history of stuffing his employees - both high and low alike. As I have advanced onto other companies and different aircraft, I have often looked back in amazement at what passed for 'normal' behaviour from the management there. It would have been considered absolutely outrageous in every other company.

He is clearly puting all his eggs in the Jet 2 basket - a very questionable strategy. If push comes to shove he will always lose out to easyJet or Ryanair if the big fight starts as they have economy of scale on their side.

The very best of good fortune to all the F27 guys being sent off elsewhere.

Arkroyal
4th Nov 2004, 07:11
The A300s are staying for now, while they are profitable. However there was some belt-tightening on the fleet a few months ago with a few redundancies.Do you mean they weren't offered the 737? Why sack proven crew, and recruit for J2 at the same time:confused:

He is clearly puting all his eggs in the Jet 2 basket - a very questionable strategy Not really, as many new 73s are freighters.

Good luck to my ex colleagues on the F27. Surely Trubs could do better than sell off his loyal workers?

Harrier46
4th Nov 2004, 07:50
Arkroyal
A300 redundancies were loadmasters and a couple of pilots who were job sharing. None were offered 737.

fokker
4th Nov 2004, 09:41
The very best of luck to all my former colleagues. You have my greatest sympathy; I know how it feels to be comprehensively sh*t on.

I can't believe Trubs being involved in a shabby deal like this. If he is, that really is the very last nail in the coffin of my faith in people's better side.

:confused:

ragspanner
4th Nov 2004, 10:46
Shameful:* ,no other word to discribe this act. Some of the people 'sh@fted' have been with Channex for a decade & more, some of the engineers around the fifteen year mark !!.
Hard nosed business man ?, not the term i would use.
Hang your head in shame !. Everyone in BOH polish up your CV's.

Aerodyne.
7th Nov 2004, 21:19
Terrible news !!. Channel at least used to put up a 'facade' of being like family . Sadly it seems no more. Shocked to hear that PM has allowed his people to be treated in such an impersonal & disloyal fashion. I had heard that staff within the company were unhappy,if this is an example of the way they treat their people i really can see why.
Apparently there are problems recruiting for MAN. Is it just the package ?. It really is a small industry and word gets around.
My very best to all those sold down the road.

Reverb
7th Nov 2004, 22:46
Great Shame. I hope that Channex look after the F27 pilots - they deserve it !

RoyHudd
8th Nov 2004, 09:30
Phew! For a few years now, I thought that leaving the Channex F-27 fleet for pastures new might have been a mistake. Evidently not. Good luck to all concerned with the F-27 operation. (I'm sure Trubs had nothing to do with this move)

Audreyslackey
8th Nov 2004, 10:14
The decision to downsize / dispose of the F27 fleet was made by PM three years or so ago following a spate of engine burnouts which wiped out that years profits. Despite the crews getting wind of this plan they were always bullshi**ed by management who reiterated the fleet's "long term future". In the background of course another agenda was being followed. Many were unconvinced and left, leaving only the most loyal (and new) to receive the inevitable shaf*ing. The company is now focussed on the 737 operation (Channex and Jet2) with the A300 fleet and BOH HQ looking increasingly isolated!

VMC
9th Nov 2004, 18:46
nothing more to add to what has already been said, just want to keeo this travesty on the front page.

Arkroyal
10th Nov 2004, 06:50
I'm still having trouble understanding the nuts and bolts of this deal.

Since slavery was outlawed, it is not possible, surely, to sell your employees. Was there an ultimatum, go or be made redundant? Are there mandatory base / salary changes afoot? Where the chosen few offered the 737?

Seeems mighty fishy to me.

Eurekadelta
10th Nov 2004, 13:12
I really do not understand what the fuss is all about??

Channel Express has simply sold the F27 division of the company as a going concern. Companies and divisions are being bought and sold constantly in other industries.

The employees are being kept on at the same salary, and (by my understanding) at broadly similar working conditions. If they were all made to take a paycut and move to Siberia - then I would fully agree with the most vocal challengers of this decision.

I am sure that there are some people disappointed that they are no longer working for the Dart group / Channel Express, who had secretly been hoping to move up to 737's. For them it is indeed bad luck - but as others have already said, would they have preferred for Channel Express to simply close down the F27 division when it no longer made (enough) profit??

The very best of luck to all involved.

VMC
12th Nov 2004, 09:54
The problem is the F27 crews are facing redundancy for Christmas. Even though the company are still hiring outside pilots for Jet2. For Jet2 read Channel Express, they are the same company, those pilots will get shafted in time.

fokker
12th Nov 2004, 11:30
Eureka- and Jet-,

I don't normally get steamed up on these pages but I have to infer that you two are either Dart Group management or have no understanding of people and employment in general or the aviation industry at all;

When people join a company, they very often have expectations of a career path available. It is factoring this into their decision to join at all, together with discussion of the prospects at interview (and well beyond) which can make one accept an unglamorous position 'temporarily' in the hope of 'jam tomorrow'. Unilaterally withdrawing that prospect subsequently is fundamentally dishonest. Furthermore, when a company employs someone, like it or not, that company also accepts a responsibility for that that person's wellbeing - if you don't agree, I suggest you look at the law, especiallly 'TUPE', quite apart from any moral ehthos you may have (although, presumably, you two are the kind of self-centred "I'm all right, Jack"-ers on whom one would not normally pee were you to self combust). The alternative is a dog-eat-dog market-place inhabited by mercenaries.

The fact that a deal may be legal - knowing PM, you may be sure that it is - does not make it honest, decent or right.

Neither, ultimately, is it good business beyond the immediate bottom line. And if you don't believe that, look at this thread and then imagine what's going on in Channex crew rooms up and down the country.

I can only hope that you were just trying to stir things: if so, I've bitten, you win. If not, God help you.





:mad: :mad:

Eurekadelta
12th Nov 2004, 12:39
Dart Group Management - Nope sorry to disappoint you.
No understanding of people, employment or aviation industry - Actually I do, but you wouldn't believe me regardless.

Quote:
When people join a company, they very often have expectations of a career path available.

I agree, but everbody knows that situations change and that there is no guarantee that this expectation can be realised. As I said in my original posting, the only alternative for Channel Express would probably have been to close the F27 division down.

Quote:
when a company employs someone, like it or not, that company also accepts a responsibility for that that person's wellbeing

In my opinion - that is exactly what Channel express have done by selling the division, rather than closing it down.

Quote:
(although, presumably, you two are the kind of self-centred "I'm all right, Jack"-ers on whom one would not normally pee were you to self combust).

Thanks - You seem like a really nice person too.

Arkroyal
12th Nov 2004, 15:34
Thanks - You seem like a really nice person too.Actually, he is. And also someone who made a personal sacrifice post 11/9 in the hope that others might suffer less.

That BALPA and the management of a large airline conspired to prevent this mitigation of grief is a source of major ire for him and for me.

fokker
12th Nov 2004, 16:35
Ark,

Thanks, old friend.

_________________________________



You know, the more people I meet along life's path, the fewer of them I like.

It's a sad truism that once one person is prepared to shaft those around him (or her), the more others are forced to do the same to compete to begin with, then to survive. They even grow to believe that it's just "the way things are". It doesn't make them big, clever or right, just (in Black Adder's words), gits.

I shall (in a very long time, I hope) go to my grave one day still believing in the fundamental decency of humanity. I will not be persuaded that this belief is forlorn but evidence is increasingly thin on the ground.

That this shabby deal concocted by Channex may be entirely, absolutely, unarguably, iron-clad, legal does not make it right or anything other than something of which PM and his sycophants should be endlessly ashamed.


I hope it keeps him awake at night.

I doubt that it will.

amaretto
15th Nov 2004, 11:03
I spoke to an F27 first officer recently and he told me that in order to progress on to the 737 within Channex you had to pay for the type rating yourself. That is why a lot of them didn't move. In my experience with Channel Express that is par for the course. Easyjet, Ryanair and bmi baby pilots may think they have a tough deal but at least they are in a 'proper' airline which, on the whole, behave with a modicom of respect to their employees and at least operate within the rules that they set. Channel Express' rules tended to evolve as Philip Meeson saw fit and they still do.

Philip Meeson is a bully to his employees and has a history of this kind of behaviour. I definately agree with a previous poster - loyalty is a one way street with Channel Express/Jet 2.

Jet 2 pilots beware. You have been warned!

twang
17th Nov 2004, 00:22
The galling thing is that the chancers & barrow boys who middle manage the affair truely believe their own b******t !.
Go on, give yourselves a big pat on the back, you've managed to save a few quid by not even having the decency to pay out the statutory minimum redundancy payment. Bonus'es all round & a day at the races in PM's Rapide, Hurrah !!.

we_never_change
2nd Dec 2004, 17:01
I've noticed that Channex have leased an An26 (reg ERAZF) in recently for ops out of EGHH, short of aircraft/crew?

WNC

Lucky Strike
4th Dec 2004, 09:04
Why is everyone getting so hot under the collar about Channex's treatment of the F27 pilots?

BA CitiExpress, when disposing of their Jetstream 41's, denied there was a transfer of crew and aircraft to Eastern for months, even though the airport check in staff knew the pilots were not told and enquiries to BACX management from pilots were met with hot denials.

When the transfer happened BACX seconded some of the '41 pilots to Eastern and made others redundant out of seniority order and when the secondment was over for the remainder, including some of the line trainers, were offered first officers jobs with BACX in BHX or redundancy, which amounted to three months salary in lieu plus a grand. Most walked to Eastern. One ex trainer I know went from £51k plus £1.50 an hour and final salary pension at BACX, to £39k plus £1.00 an hour and no pension. TUPE transfer? B0llocks.

Why no fuss about the BACX ’41 pilots then, and a furore over Channex F27 pilots now? At least they get a TUPE transfer.