Shoot me down in flames, but...

[The mole]

OK OK You can shoot me down in flames if you want to...

I have paid for the Type Rating, should I pay for the line training?

[witchdoctor]

ratatatatatatatatat!!!!!!............................eeeeeee eeeeeeeeeee......BOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!

:}

(sorry, couldn't resist) ;)

[south coast]

why not buy your own plane and do the hours that way...burning holes in the air.

:ok: :ok: :ok:

but seriuosly, you have done the damage to the market already, you might aswell do the whole lot and give yourself the best chance in getting a return on your investement.

[Number Cruncher]

ratatatatatatatatat

Isn't that from a song in a nativity play?


Out of interest, what made you finally decide to do this? Who did you do it with? How much did it cost you and how much will the LT cost?

Keep us informed on any positive outcome. If you land a job you'll be laughing, nobody else.

[MJR]

Well done mole,

What did you do? where did you do it? what have you got? and how old are you?

Oh!

and why not if you've got the money. But why have'nt you got a job already? How may hours are you going to do line training? Unlikely to be 500 I guess, so yet another risk.

Your money your choice. I can guarantee that no advice here will help. "do it", "Don't""do it", "Don't""do it", "Don't""do it", "Don't"

la la la

cheers

MJR

PS sorry this isn't entirely helpful, but I would be interested in what you have done and how you get on.:ok:

[skyman68]

send me some money, and i will give you free advise!!!!;)

[Number Cruncher]

send me some money, and i will give you free advise!!!!

I just can't work that one out....

Still, nice to read a semi-happy post from you Skyman.

[skyman68]

if you want write me, I will have to charge you 50$ to read your posts...

[The mole]

In reply:

I have 1000 piston hours, a 737-300 Type Rating and 1 jet hour. I am 36 years old and to be blunt if I don't do the line training I think I am going to find it difficult to compete with newly qualified bright young things. I have the option of doing 100 hours 'line training' at Astraeus, and maybe some more flying there after.

BTW, I run my own business and have just found out that I make more money than a 5 year captain at BMI. Just what is happening to this industry?

And I am not happy that I have to pay for all of this. Maybe I will just stick to part time instructing....

[A320 or bust]

And I am not happy that I have to pay for all of this

No one made you pay for own rating.

Also, if you are more worried about sallary than job enjoyment then you probably shouldn't do it anyway....

[haughtney1]

Mole,

Just to pick up on a point you make about being 36..and therefore your not able to compete with younger candidates.....RUBBISH!....dont think that for 1 second....this is one of the biggest myths of the aviation world today...you are mature....Stable(hopefully!)...far more able to view situations with a perspective that a 25 year old wouldnt have a hope of understanding..and perhaps best of all...you represent what a good airline is looking for..a dedicated responsible..and mature person...who is farrrrr more likely to stick around after they've got that first 1000hrs of experience.
Before all you younger pups get all hot under the collar at me for saying this.....I am basing this on my experience of what I have seen with my own two eyes..both here in the UK...and around the world.
Finally mole for what its worth.....Im the wrong side of 30...I got offered 2 jobs from 2 separate companies by Chief pilots that were sick of impatient 20 somethings who just wanted to fly jets...without wanting to learn the ropes first.

just my 10p worth


Cheers H

:ok:

[PicMas]

To my potential colleague

Allow me to respond to your question, I offer you my opinion as I feel we both share the love of aviation and a common bond of integrity to maintain the best conditions in the business we love.

I understand your dilemma, you paid for your T/R, didn't get you anywhere. If you pay for your line-training all you will get (with some luck) is an F/O position. I know I have stated this before but, did you get into aviation to fly as #2?? Why not spend the money from your business and buy 4000-5000hrs jet. Then maybe you can get a DE capt. position, it might help if you are willing to fly for free and with your business making more than a 5year capt. really, show some company spirit you already paid the T/R willing to pay for the line-training. It would probably give you an edge over other candidates to offer to work for free.

Let me know how it turns out, maybe someday we can meet for a beer and a cozy chat about how unfair the business is and how wrong it is that a 5-year captain makes so little as you describe.

....Might take some time though, I took the silly route of building my time with instructing, flying charter etc. I unfortunately was never aware that when airlines post hour requirements they intended applicants to buy the time.

Very truly yours,

The idiot waiting in-line

[eagerbeaver]

The Mole

I would do it, if i could afford it i would, you got to think about number one after all. In a few years when you are flying around somewhere in a jet you will forget about all the constant moral wrangling you put yourself through.

A320 or bust - you are an ass. That is a completely ridculous thing to say, everyone has to consider the sallary being offered when taking a job. No one can live on fresh air and good will.

DO IT.

[wigwag]

The mole ,

You say you earn more money being self employed, and what's happening to the industry? Do you think it might be the number of pilots paying for there own type rating, line training and some pilots working for free?

WW

[A320 or bust]

Fair point. Didn't mean to offend, I just meant if it's really what you want to do, then you just have to do it. Its going to take a long time to get rich in this job after all the investment in training.

Good luck.

[haughtney1]

A320.....Ive asked this question to numerous wannabes on here..and I have yet to get an answer....you seem like a reasoned..and well thought out individual..bearing that in mind I wonder if you could answer this.

"when will you be prepared to stop paying for training....?"
will it be after your type check-out...the line training....mayby when you tire of the shiney A320..and want to move up in size a bit..when will it end?
Ponder this for a moment.....it is now for EXACTLY the reasons of SSTR's...and idiots paying for their line training...that professional pilots of all levels are now facing the very real prospect of paying for JUST about everything..line checks....re-currency....overnight expenses...taxi's to and from hotels. The accountants and middle managment now see a way to chip away at our profession, and demean those who they begrudge to pay if there is a willing supply of idiots who will PAY to work.

Eagerbeaver..look after number 1????....if you could afford it all you would be doing is cutting your own throat..along with plenty of others.....plain and simple.

I wonder if anyone can mount a reasoned....and valid arguement to refute what Ive just typed. I doubt it

Oh and I towed gliders...flew skydivers..flew charter..and a bit of freight..to get to where I am today.


cheers


H:ok:

[A320 or bust]

I don't fly an A320, just a name.

I stopped paying for training after my MCC. Got lucky with job flying turbo-props, which is what I do now. But if I didn't get a job, would I have paid for a type rating? Well probably not. I know a lot of people choose to go this route but personally, like you haughtney1, I don't agree with it. Because of peoples willingness to pay whatever it takes to get a RHS on a jet the industry is moving in the direction haughtney1 explained.

But that said, I don't blame people for doing what they can to get into an airline. But I think paying for a rating is drastic, and the TRTO's are taking advantage of desperate wannabes

I think the best option for people with money to burn and want to get a jet job then try to get on the CTC thing. At least you wont have to pay for the rating.

Just my opinion too, don't shoot me down.


Good luck whichever way you go.

[Phileas Fogg]

Just to dispell this myth about 500 hours on type, and no, I'm not trying to sell 'line training'.

Perhaps on 12 September 2001 airlines could insist upon 500+ hours on type but more recently, market conditions have dictated that if airlines, or CAA's, are going to stipulate this then they're going to be disappointed.

Current market conditions are slightly more favourable for the A320 pilot than the B737 pilot, this past summer A320 pilots with 150+ hours or B737 pilots with 200+ hours on type were very eligible for employment and to try to find an A320 pilot with 150+ hours on type was seemingly impossible, such B737 pilots were scarse but not impossible.

Whilst one cannot guarantee what the market will do in the future I can only suggest that next year will remain similar to this year, 150 or 200 hours on type should get you a job, how you achieve those hours, well that's up to you!

P.S. The hours figures quoted are hours in the aeroplane, not in the simulator.

[haughtney1]

A320....If it sounded like I was having a go...my apologies..like you im currently flying turbo-props..and to be honest im fat dumb and happy about it.
Phileas raises a couple of pertinent points.....but he also makes a telling comment

"150 or 200 hours on type should get you a job, how you achieve those hours, well that's up to you!"

as this implies, airlines..and persons of Phileas's position (no Offense phileas..but you know where im going with this) couldnt give 2 hoots as to how the experience is gained...as long as you've got it..they dont care. They are happy to perpetuate this situation as it is financially expedient to do so, and as long as the "more money than sense" brigade continue to line up, then im afraid more wannabes will suffer down the line.

In my opinion...this position is morally bankrupt, in anothers opinion..its just good business.

Apologies again A320 if I seemed a bit mean.

Oh and Phileas...did you pay for your initial TR..and line training?



H:ok:

[Phileas Fogg]

Haughtney,
I never said I was a pilot! I would however, consider re-mortgaging the house to the tune of 20k if I were offered a higher paid position whereas I could recoup this money within a relatively short period of time. Makes sense don't you think?

(150 or 200 hours on type should get you a job, how you achieve those hours, well that's up to you!)

I think you misinterpreted my meaning of the above, I didn't want to suggest that a pilot pays to fly, I'll stay well away from that subject thank you very much!

I would hasten to add that the airlines look for 'quality' time on type. I receive CV's weekly and without divuldging airline identities (but a particular Turkish operator springs to mind), there are airlines out there, where pilots pay to fly, or fly for free, and to be honest, any pilots from such a source go to the bottom of the pile.

If you're going to pay to fly then look at the quality of the operator you're going to be doing it with. A future employer, of any repute, wants to know you've got the required hours of quality and not merely time occupying the seat with a questionable operator.

I don't believe an airline would be exploiting a pilot by asking for previous experience on type regardless of how that experience was gained. They've merely set their minimum criteria and any suitable applications will be considered. Of course, were they not to receive suitable applications they may have to reconsider their minima.

They're looking for experienced guys that can get up to speed perhaps quicker than the lesser experienced guy. Such a practice of asking for previous experience is not unique to this industry, it's the same in any industry. They are not suggesting that people pay for this experience, people do change companies during their career and it is these people such airlines may be trying to attract.

Perhaps it being suggested that pilots that pay should be blacklisted? A similar scenario might be if banks, supermarkets etc. blacklisted anyone from a government YTS scheme, those people worked for free (equivalent of unemployment benefit only) to secure their jobs.

[haughtney1]

Thanks Phileas for clearing up the pilot bit.....an incorrect assumption on my part.

I agree with almost all you have to say....and considering the state of the market place at the moment, I would have thought 150-200 hours on type is not that uncommon. Having said that, when you refer to quality...I believe that as long as the person is not a blithering idiot, is able to relate to those around themselves, and perhaps most of all, can demonstrate the required level of technical profficiency.....they are a good bet for a position. I am sure however that plenty of unscrupulous operators will take all and sundry...for the right price.

In respect of experience...yes..it is a measure of ones skill set, adaptability, maturity, employability, and stickability...all the i ties..

Which brings me back to the original point I have made..and even asked the question...."where does it all end?"..this state of affairs is not sustainable in the longrun...but then mayby thats the point entirely.....recruiters and airlines aren't looking into the longterm.


H

:ok:

[Phileas Fogg]

Haughtney,
What I meant by 'quality' was the standard of training, the standard of the Training Captains, operating procedures, adherance to procedures etc. You can be a mighty fine individual pilot but if you've picked up some bad habits or not been trained to a good standard, well, you'll need a minimum of extended training.

I heard only last week that an eastern European country, recently joined the EU, is handing out jet TRI & TRE certificates to Captains just off turbo-props.

I don't know if you know but a JAA TRI or TRE needs to undergo a Core Course then be CAA supervised when himself supervising, such is the high standard some guys don't make the grade.

The referred to country is not providing any such quality control, training nor supervision, they're simply dishing out training qualifications to guys who's handling of the jet is questionable to say the least, and this guy is going to be training others!

Now, put yourself in the position of a Chief Pilot, would you readily accept guys trained by these people?

Who can say when it will end, one loco goes bust, another one starts up but they'll be affected also if mortgage & interest rates go up or Gulf War 3 occurs! And then it will all start again once things improve thereafter!

[FLYbyWIT]

Hey mole surely with ryanair operating quiet a few 737's and given there fairly active turnover rate of crew and required recruitment would you not hang about a few months and give that a go instead of going for line training. You seem to have the available funds so why not do the NG differences and apply online to them, (no comments how **** they are plz). You also got the other 737 operators at mo taking some guys on so why not just test the waters awhile with ur new rating. Interesting to read people say a 737 rating will automaically rule you outta running for turbo jobs etc etc, I have met guys who landed business jet jobs on the basis they held a jet rating, it does account for at least some added credibility.

[skyman68]

pay pay pay all you can.

we need guys like you!

[Bail out]

I attended and passed a SSTR scheme early this year, there was 16 of us on the course, of which 14 are now on the line with respective airlines around the europe.

I think the line training is a complex issue, in so far as the 100hrs exsposure to the line doesnt qualify you as an experienced pilot in terms of airline requirements.

However, are you any more likely to get a position once the line training is complete, with an airline other than the training provider?

Is the line training costs not better spent keeping an already exspensive type rating current?

[Phileas Fogg]

Bail Out,

Airlines, most of them anyway, are in business to shift passengers from A to B, Training Providers are in business to provide training.
Line training provided by the airline is provided as a legal requirement, perhaps 20 sectors, to get it out of the way as soon as possible and get on with what the pilot is there for, shifting passengers.
An airline, normally, wouldn't have the capacity of training staff to provide unecessary (by law) training and that's not what they're in business for. Training providers however are in business to provide training thus should have the training staff to facilitate this.
There appears to be a misconception that when an airline advertises for experienced pilots they are directing this advert to the wannabee's thus putting these guys in the position whereas they are expected to buy hours.
This is not the case, as in any business, previous experience is preferred and these airlines would preferably like guys with 1,000's of hours experience and perhaps want a career change/advancement.
Such are current market conditions they perhaps cannot source such guys thus are reducing their minima below 500 hours to perhaps 200 hours on type but they remain advertising for experience.
If a wannabee can put him/herself into this category by buying time then that is a decision/risk for them to make and take but, such airlines are not raising their criteria for wannabee's, they're reducing their criteria for experienced and the two should not be confused.
Market conditions haven't dictated yet that they need to take guys with zero hours on type but if they did need to take such guys then they'd prefer to arrange the type-rating training themselves, perhaps partly through a financial interest but moreso to enable them to oversee the training of the guy they're going to let loose with their aeroplane(s).

Just to reitterate, this refers to airlines who advertise for experience and not airlines who advertise for wannabees prepared to fork-out on a type rating.

[FLYbyWIT]

Yes by in large this would be quiet accurate, but as with everything there is always other options or situations which have given to guys getting jobs with just the basic type and no time.
Yes Airlines would probably like to arrange for training to go through a TRTO which would be under the watchful eye of the airline,but then again interviews/sim checks have sufficed in the past for SSTR students which is of course a easier option for some airlines. As with everything there is always exceptions,there is nothing in stone.

[MJR]

Furthermore, I believe some, if not many airlines have a limitation with how many pilots they can employ with less than 500 hours on type due to insurance cover. So even with 100 hours line training you're still going to be short.

cheers

MJR

[The mole]

Have we all been looking at this the wrong way?

Any of you guys read Flight International this week? Probably a dumb question. 'Straight and Level' has a '50 years ago' column. And 50 years ago the price of a transatlantic return flight was reduced to around about £250. Yes £250. Cost of a transatlantic return flight today - well blow me down if you look in the back of the sunday papers it's £200. So who is going to pay me 20 grand a month to do that then I wander?

Secondly

In the good ol' days a tried and tested route to airline flying was to instruct/ fly air taxi/ fly a banderante/fly anything or any combination of these. And we all did it because we knew that when we made captain in a shiny jet it was payback time financially speaking. I know single blokes who lived in the old pig stys at Headcorn for a pound a night because they were instructing and they couldn't afford anything else. The difference then is that BA were paying theeir top blokes £150k pa and the top line elsewhere was good as well. I have lived in a caravan to afford it. Has anybody done a cost analysis of this? Who is better off- the ones who go without for years, or the ones who have earnt money and then spent it on something stupid like a type rating? And people with rich parents are excluded from this argument. And so are people who have spent a load of money then whinge about it on pprune day and night.Whichever way you look at it, I personally will always be financially less well off because of my flying habit.

And yes I will do the line training my last contract was working in live sewers so I think I have bloody earned it!