Unbelievable newbie questions

[Milhouse]

Dear all,

Just trying to get some advice from those in the know. Basically my story is like this:

Got 1st in maths from uni, was really up for becoming a trader in the city. Went to a shedload of interviews (quite a few final rounds) but never quite clinched anything. Now I'm considering other options, and reckon being an airline pilot sounds rather good. Personality-wise I reckon I'm quite well suited, especially since being a pilot doesn't require you to be an absolute aggressive mofo (as being a trader does). Unfortunately, I have no flying experience other than a few goes on Microsofts flight sim.

I've had a look at a few websites and it still appears that the industry is in a post-9/11 glut. I'm currently filling in the CTC application form, but thought it best get some ideas from you knowledgeable people first.

Also, FYI, given my degree and the shedload of sporting/work/extra-curricular experience I have, I reckon I've got the intelligence and other 'soft' skills to get in. The only lacking area I have is the techincal side....in particular finding the CTC question "what attributes will be important to pilots in the future" question difficult without writing bs waffle.

...failing this, I'll be off to become an accountant! HELP!

[Paulscho]

You could go down the route of becoming an airline pilot, but is this what you really want to do for the rest of your life or are you happy been an accountant as a second choice??
I think most pilots are where they are because they have a love for aviation. I fall into that category and am waiting to start my first job and can't wait.
If you are bright, you can pass all the exams and learn to fly.
Good luck.

[BongleBear]

I'd agree with Paulscho, you have to have the love for flying then get the qualifications, not the other way round. The training is very expensive (unless you're lucky enough to get sponsorship) and takes a lot of dedication, so the desire to fly has to be there throughout.

[bertie777]

Why not leave pilot jobs to those who have wanted to do it for more or less their entire life! There's few enough jobs out there as it is without giving them to people that don't have a devoted passion for it!

[747 Downwind]

Hmm.. Milhouse u must be 100 times more dedicated to aviation as u have been to the financial stock market otherwise u will FAIL. A 1st in Maths is admirable and maths/numeracy are essential in flying though just a piece of the jigsaw.

I too believed I had the 'Intelligence' to make it, but never in my life have I been pushed so hard.. the commercials are tough and require hard work.. precosity and inate skill will NOT be enough. I passed with marks well above the average, from an approved training provider and I am young... still NO job:{

I have been to selections (final boards, both for scholarship selection and for jobs) and have not made it but have done well to acheive just final boards. I will keep trying and I WILL make it through hard work, financial sacrifice and sheer determination.

If u sincerely want it and are prepared to suffer financially (forget the good time girls and the sports cars) then join the club, but if money is your thing stick to Trading as somebody of your background will get through after time. Aviation has too many heavyweights, you'll be up against the best and you'll have to give it your all.. hope to the hear u in the airways someday!:ok:

[The mole]

Firstly Flying:

Exams for ATPL: Tedious but not especially taxing.
Flight training: Be well prepared and you must have good hand/eye coordination and see the bigger picture.V v difficult to get your first job
Once qualified you will not get rich and you will owe 3X what you would after finishing university. You will be rostered weekends so forget about playing sports regularly. You will spend long periods away from where you want to live

Secondly The City:

The money aint what it used to be. American banks excepted but they will own your soul. V difficult to get into. If you got to final interviews then reapply next year after working in a vaguely relevant job
Good social life sport at weekends home to the family every night etc etc

Personally I would go for the city job. That also leaves one less wannabee for me to compete with!

[BoraBora007]

Millhouse - Dont listen to fools like bertie who tell you to leave the jobs to those who have wanted them all their lives.

That is not the way the world works!

You sound like a pretty rounded and clever guy who stands a good chance with CTC.

People with sour grapes like Bertie who are incompetant just feel that they have more rights to airline jobs than you cause they have wanted it since their daddy bought them a toy plane when they were 6.

I didnt always want it - but got it, cause I have what it takes.

Sorry Bertie - perhaps we should only let incompetants be airline pilots because they want it more?!

[BongleBear]

I didnt always want it - but got it, cause I have what it takes

'Wanting it' is surely part of 'what it takes' to get an airline job.

You will also find that even if you can get that lucrative first job without the desire that others posess, what's going to motivate you to get up when you get a call out at 4am knowing that what faces you is sitting for 6 hours? Please don't reply with 'the money' or 'the lifestyle', because if you do then this industry doesn't want or need you.

[BoraBora007]

Why if I answered money or lifestyle would the industry not "want" or "need" me?

[BongleBear]

Because the correct answer is: because I can pick up birds with "do you know i'm a pilot". Isn't it?

BoraBora - do you have any desire to fly now?

Sorry Bertie - perhaps we should only let incompetants be airline pilots because they want it more?!

Can you really be incompetent with an ATPL? Surely if you've worked that hard to achieve an ATPL, then the only incompetence you can have (and injustice to yourself) is not wanting it that much?

Also can I ask, whilst trying to avoid turning this into an argument, what is it that you've got- that it takes to get employed?

I didnt always want it - but got it, cause I have what it takes.

Because if it's not desire and/or an ATPL, then I'm sure there's thousands of wannabees out there who can't wait to find out.

[BoraBora007]

Im not talking about ATPL holders, but those trying to obtain sponsorship, which is what I did, believe it or not! To get an ATPL I agree you have to be good, your on the line of course.

To get an fATPL you need money - thats all - and yes a degree of competance, but that does not make you a good pilot or does it mean you are suited to a career as an airline pilot.

Have a look at the GAPAN website which explains this in a recent survey.

The problem I have is when people tell other people not to try to be a pilot because they don't want it enough. - that kind of attitude shows ignorance and a lack of self confidence.



Cheers :ok:

[keithl]

Well, I would say "Don't go for pilot unless you really want it enough!"

OK, Bora?

[concorde002]

bertie 777 an excellent reply!!

Leave the job of being an airline pilot to the people who have wanted it for most of their life!!

Enough said!!

[bertie777]

Before I start, thanks concorde for your generous comment! Seem to be the only one that agrees!

Seeing as people seem to see me as some kind of toff - it's time to start speaking like one!

Right chaps, daddy has never bought me anything that would warrant me to desire a career as a pilot. I have done everything possible in my life to help acheive my ambitions.

And that includes a first degree in Airport / Airline Operations - fairly relevant to the subject of aviation don't you think?

If I end up paying for my training, then every penny will be my money! I may not have a great deal of money - but I would never expect my parents to fund my dreams - im sure they have dreams of their own without working their retirement (when the time come) to dund mine!


What I was implying was that the ambition to become a pilot is not a one minute wonder where you wake up one morning and decide that it is the job for you! It's a descision that takes years of consideration and determination!

The first sign of failure does not affect my ambition, whereas with someone who has just picked the idea out of thin air may be phased by this! I failed CTC by a whisker - and seing as I didnt have a problem with the group stage, then I (without being pretentious) don't think that sour grapes come into it.

Im not going to argue with people over my point of view - its simply not worth it!

Tally ho chappie (biggles style!)

[Cumulonimbus]

Millhouse

If you cut through much of the cr*p posted in the replies here which smack of self-interest and protectionism, the bottom line is 'how much do you really want this'? If you want it at all costs, then you will most likely succeed. It won't be because of your Maths degree or anything of the like; it will be sheer determination to succeed and hard graft. I know of pilots that succeeded even though they didn't meet the arbitary education qualifications the CAA laid down. They fudged those!

My question to you is however; What makes you think you really have the determination and desire to do this? I would have thought you would have gone beyond the stage of flying your computer sim and at least invested in a 'trial flight' in a real airplane?? How do you know you will like it? It's not a question of lifestyle that will determine if you are suited.

If your alternative bent is accountancy, I suspect you won't have the right attributes to succeed in flying. Most pilots I know could never be accountants; they don't have the attention span or thrill of working in what they would consider to be a 'mind numbing' profession.

I don't intend to be rude, but suggest you don't embark on such a challenging road without establishing you have the passion and determination to succeed. CTC will establish that fact very quickly in any event. Sorry to be brutal.

[BoraBora007]

If your alternative bent is accountancy, I suspect you won't have the right attributes to succeed in flying

I think the above quote is rubbish.

Give it your best shot millhouse and yes its down to you to make the decision and decide whether you want it or not.

However it is not a prerequisit to have wanted it your entire life. It is also not a bad thing that you have included alternative options in your plans. It is also not a crime that being an airline pilot was not your initial choice, despite what other people on this thread might think.

[BongleBear]

I think this thread has got a bit out of hand, the main point is that if you didn't always want to be a pilot, then by all means change your mind whenever you want- to be whatever you want. If we all had set in our minds what we wanted to be by the age of six, there'd be alot of F1 Drivers and Astronauts out there. However, and this is what I believe to be the point that bertie, concorde and CB are trying to make, the training is alot harder than many would believe and it takes alot of hard work and determination. There was also a good suggestion by CB, at least have a couple of hours flying before you jump in the deep end.

BBear

[Cumulonimbus]

BoraBora

You are entitled to your opinion. All I would ask is, what are your credentials? Are you a wanabee with ideas and attitude? I gave my advice to Millhouse, without any axe to grind.

My credentials are that I have been directly involved in the selection, assessment and placement of maybe as many as 750 - 1000 professional pilots.

You can take my advice or you can leave it, but I reckon I do have the experience to comment on such matters.

Regards

Cb

[Alex Whittingham]

Don't laugh at accountants. They run your airline. They employ pilots as managers because they think they can communicate with the workforce and they know they can't. The accountants are the real managers, they're the ones that put bread on your table. Listen carefully, and behind every aviation decision you can hear the crunch crunch crunch of accountants' calculators.

[Cumulonimbus]

Alex

Who is laughing at accountants? Not me, for sure!

Only certain accountants have the right attributes to run an airlne and they would be the first to acknowledge that their skill set would not enable them to fly airplanes. Most of those actually look down their noses at pilots, as you well know.

I think you just proved my point!

[spaceman18]

You might not have any flying experience, but that doesnt actualy matter despite what people say. The airlines are simply looking for someone with the capacity and willingness to learn. Im currently on the CTC scheme, and started it without having done a single hour. Give it a go, if you're good enough then you'll get in. Thats all that counts.

[Alex Whittingham]

I think I did, didn't I?!

[Milhouse]

Well, thanks for the replies people.

Reckon I'll at least give the CTC scheme a shot - at the very least there is nothing to lose.

Fully agree with people that you must have a good motivation for the job....which in my case would be a desperate desire to avoid the typical desk job (sorry accountants!). Anybody who thinks 4am starts and working hours piloting are crazy should consider the minimum city work week of 60hours (going upto 100 for some nutters in corp fin).

Also agree that motivation is only part of the picture. For example, a couple of other guys at uni I know got trading jobs without having even read the company website. Basically they pulled this off cos they're massively intelligent and graced with the gift of the gab....for which I could get 'sour grapes', but really they deserved them.(actually, maybe I am just a tad jealous!)

I think my main challenge will be to convince my interviewer that I am committed to the training, dodgy work hours etc. of piloting without having had the desire to climb into a plane since I was 5...which I reckon I should be able to do given my choice of highly exciting alternative careers.

[Re-Heat]

You have quite a lot a generalisations about accountants on this thread which are quite frankly rubbish. As a chartered accountant, the skill set and personalities within my profession are generally as varied as those within the airline industry - both in the flight deck and beyond. Within my graduate year, we have three persons, myself included, who were aiming to fly professionally prior to 9/11 or are now aiming to do so.

Cumulonimbus If your alternative bent is accountancy, I suspect you won't have the right attributes to succeed in flying. Most pilots I know could never be accountants; they don't have the attention span or thrill of working in what they would consider to be a 'mind numbing' profession. If you profess such views in the flightdeck, you will make a lot of people hate you. Backgrounds of those you will or do fly with are as varied as they come, and your assertion that what I do is mind-numbing is quite frankly ignorant. I would invite you to sort out reporting to New York on quartely figures, while managing a team who sits in London while you have been sent to Dublin to coordinate a financial controls project, having got up at 4:30am and working to 10pm in the hotel. It is one of the most team-focused professions that there are anywhere outside of aviation in my experience.

Alex They employ pilots as managers because they think they can communicate with the workforce and they know they can't. Whatever. Firstly, people in finance departments are not generally all accountants by trade. The FD and some finance staff and analysts are accountants by trade. The budgets are set, and managers - be they pilot managers or whoever else run the budgets. They are they ones who then crunch their numbers to ensure that they look as good as possilble, and are often responsible for the petty penny-pinching you witness in companies - simly as they are useless at seeing the big picture and running their budgets adequately. Accountants are only a part of the team that goes from them at the top to you at the bottom.

Milhouse, having said this, I would agree with the other commentators that your commitment needs to be far greater than 'it sounds good', and there are a large number of us who are aiming to enter the industry who have great commitment demonstrated through what we have done in the past, and how we have demonstrated our other capabilities beyond the academic. I wish you luck, as you are asking the right questions. Don't be put off by people like Bertie, as not everyone is born knowing what they want to do, nor is it anyone's god-given right. Get off flight sim and pay for a trial lesson though - otherwise you really won't know what you are appyling for, nor whether you really love it.

The Mole; the city has changed a great deal in the last 12 months - from a hige defecit of jobs for people, there are now huge opportunities and salaries have shot up for new graduates by a huge extent.

Sorry for the rant, but the portrayal of my profession as beancounters in a repetitive job is simply untrue of the reality and I am tired of having to defend it every day.

[Caracul]

Just wanted to add my 2p in here. Milhouse, it boils down to this fact:

If there are two people attending an interview, you being one of them, you need to think about why you would get the job.

If you have read this particular part of the forum well, you will have seen how many of us wannabees are out here. I will be the first to admit that a first in Maths is admirable, but there will be plenty of others out there that have the same academice qualifications, and extra-curricular activities.

It will boil down to one question. Who wants it more. Because if you're going for a sponsorship against another well placed candidate, they're going to pick the person that wants it most, the person that has always, and will always strive to acheive their dream. Its a safer bet.

On that note, if you get to interview and are asked what you'll do if you dont get sponsorship? Answer that you'll go and become an accountant, and you'll get shown the door.

All thats left is to wish you good luck.

[Alex Whittingham]

Reheat: I was using the term 'accountants' as a catch-all for senior management with a financial bent. I agree with you completely, pilots underrate the contribution the financial profession make to an airline. That was the point of my post.

[fastjet2k]

Ok, now we've finished discussing the differences between accountants and pilots, lets try and get back on track! I think too many people have been misunderstood on here and the trail has been further confused by the occasional crossover from the Professional Accountants Rumour Network.

Being honest, nobody should be telling anybody else NOT to do something. I think the point that has been made here is that you may find yourself somewhat disadvanted turning up for interview and being surrounded by people who talk 'vaguely knowledgeably' about the industry. Their lifelong passion to fly isnt necessarily what will get them through, but the knowledge/ideas that have been picked up along the way might.

This is just a disadvantage. This is not a reason for you not to get it. A colleague of mine used to be an estate agent, then worked as a salesman. He'd always liked the idea of flying so took it up. 10 years later, he's a Training Captain on an Airbus and flys regularly in his spare time. If you were to tell him he didn't want it enough, you'd probably earn yourself a slap! If you really throw yourself into it, you can get it and you can enjoy a very rewarding career at the end of it.

Advice - without the advantage of years of desire behind you, now is the time to make sure you do your homework. Some of these books on interview technique and aptitude questions are fairly useless, but some could save your bacon at an assessment centre. Definitely go and do a couple of trial flights, if for nothing else than to boost your own confidence and, hopefully, your desire.

The comments made earlier are correct, most pilots have wanted to fly all their lives (me included) but this only helps us because we have years of acquired knowledge when we get to interview. However, for somebody intelligent (as it sounds like you are), you can certainly learn enough by reading books, websites and monitoring great sites such as PPrune!

You may never know more than some of those you'll be up against but life experience can count for a lot and you may find that being a more rounded and worldly individual will leave you in a better position to do a training course than somebody who knows very little outside of their 'niche', i.e. aviation.

All anybody can do is their best and if you don't try you don't get. (ah, the cliches come out now!). Do your homework before you go and I wish you all the very best. Let us know how you get on!

FJ2k