146 to go....in comes the 717

[Voodoo Guru]

QantasLink to Replace BAe146s with Boeing 717s Latest News
SYDNEY, 29 October 2004
QantasLink said today it would replace its fleet of BAe146 aircraft with newer Boeing 717 aircraft from July 2005.

Executive General Manager Regional Airlines, Narendra Kumar, said the Boeing 717 aircraft would move progressively from Jetstar to QantasLink as Jetstar continued to grow its fleet of new Airbus A320s.

"This is a great opportunity for QantasLink and for our customers," Mr Kumar said.

"The newer aircraft will offer fresher cabins for our customers and the extra capacity will stimulate growth on regional routes and allow QantasLink to increase the number of discount seats on these routes."

Mr Kumar said eight Boeing 717s, operating in a 115 seat configuration with a 32 inch seat pitch, would gradually replace eight 65 to 76 seat BAe146s over the 12 months beginning July 2005.

He said QantasLink would continue to fly the remaining two BAe146 aircraft in its fleet, which are leased until December 2006. QantasLink also operates a fleet of 34 Bombardier Dash 8 aircraft.

Mr Kumar said QantasLink would operate the 717s in Western Australia, the Northern Territory and Queensland. The routes on which the 717s will operate include:
* Perth-Broome
* Perth-Kalgoorlie
* Perth-Karratha
* Perth-Paraburdoo
* Perth-Port Hedland
* Perth-Newman
* Paraburdoo-Newman
* Alice Springs-Ayers Rock
* Alice Springs-Broome
* Alice Springs-Cairns
* Alice Springs-Darwin
* Alice Springs-Perth
* Ayers Rock-Cairns
* Ayers Rock-Perth
* Cairns-Gove-Darwin

Mr Kumar said QantasLink would evaluate proposals from both National Jet Systems, which currently operates the airline's BAe146 fleet, and Jetstar, which currently operates the 717 fleet, to operate and maintain the new QantasLink 717 regional flying operations.

He said the changes to the QantasLink and Jetstar fleets would also require assessment of the various options for maintenance of both Airbus A320 and Boeing 717 aircraft. The Qantas Group would continue to keep all interested parties informed of this process.

QantasLink, one of the Qantas Group's four flying businesses, operates more than 1,900 flights a week to around 50 destinations across Australia.


Issued by Qantas Corporate Communication (3177)
Email: [email protected]

[Capn Bloggs]

It's a good thing it's a Boeing otherwise I'd be going!

Only two engines?? P1ss weak!:D

Right, where's that seniority list...

[Capt Claret]

Hey Bloggs, a little birdie told me late last week that Darwin would be the first base to operate the Boeing that'll get you going!

[Pimp Daddy]

So they get another paint job. Poor things won't know if they are Arthur or Martha.

So what's the odds for NJS getting them or Jetstar keeping them?

[hoss]

My prediction, Jetstar keep em. They will have a 'you-beaut' deal with QantasLink and and a lean and mean contract. NJS 146 operation slowly wound up and B717 pilots will come from a mixture of NJS EAA and SS with Check and Training from the last of the Jetstar's. The offer may not be the best but there will be enough takers.

:)

[alidad]

Pimp Daddy,
The aircraft are not the only things that are'nt sure if they are Arthur or Martha......

[cunninglinguist]

have to disagree Hoss.
The flexability NJS offer as a contractor and the mostly harmonious 11 year partnership will see the NJS boys/girls get the gurnsey.
Clarrie......................dreamin';)

[spinout]

Since the Q-Link management only understand the bottom line, I would not be a bit surprised if the Qantas employed, Qantaslink pilots, (Eastern and Sunstate) adopted the same tactics as did the Impulse Pilot Group and under cut both the J* offer and the National Jet offer after all what have they got to lose….
Qantas mainline don’t want them and the J* offer of career opportunities is a joke.

[Capt Claret]

cunninglinguist

Not at all. Simply repeating something purported to come from one who should know.

[Capt Fathom]

Have seen jobs advertised on two websites for B717 Captains and First Officers for contracts in Australasia. Not many 717's in Australasia now are there?

Someone is getting in early to undercut the incumbents.

[chimbu warrior]

Sadly I suspect that QF are going to try and further screw down the terms and conditions for this operation. I think spinout is correct........it is only the bottom line that they will look at.

Whoever the lucky ones are, I hope you enjoy it, as it is a magic-looking machine.

[topend3]

how will the 717s go in the hot locations in extreme conditions as compared to the 146? would be interested in any input as i believe the 146 had proved it's worth operating out of such locations and has had superb dispatch reliability.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Topend 3 it will handle the hot wx fine. Can I come too ?

[commander adama]

superb dispatch reliability.

Topend. Do you actually work in the industry?

[Wings Of Fury]

Capn Bloggs, I think its more of a Mcdonnell Douglas aircraft than a Boeing:ok:
Sorry:rolleyes:

[Vref+5]

Didn't Boeing buy McDonnell Douglas several years ago? If that is the case technically you could call it a Boeing.

[LetsGoRated]

The 717 is technically a McDonnell Douglas machine (the MD95) and it shows. You can thank MD an Honeywell for an integrated avionics package and flight deck that is second to none. You guys will love this airplane!! :ok:

[vigi-one]

Spinout

I agree J*star progression is a joke as its at the whim of management and as we struggle to hold numbers who is going to let the trickle experienced pilots move across, As i understand only 7 places for every 20 recruits to come from Eastern and Sunstate combined. Regional morale gone.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Vigi one. Perhaps you could have a chat with some of the old crusties as to why you have no progression. The bloke next to you probably was in volved.

[Weapons_Hot]

LetsGoRated - obviously you haven't flown the MD11 (Mad Dog), which does make the MD95's cockpit runner-up, but only to another MD product. :E

[Capn Bloggs]

Here they come!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v151/webpixx/prune/b717njssmall.jpg

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Mr Douglas certainly made a good product. Boeing badge or not it will always be a Douglas.

Remember. Flair then release.
DM

[topend3]

commander adama

Topend. Do you actually work in the industry?

yep i sure do!!!

i am just quoting what i have read and heard from qf/njs sources, i am aware of all the much publicised issues/problems with the 146 believe me, but you must agree they have served their purpose here, and especially in the west.

[cunninglinguist]

U R on the money Topend, in recent times the fruitbat has had excellent despatch reliability, quite often trumping QDom in the figures.

[BAE146]

........anyone else seen THIS ! (http://www.flightinternational.com/fi_frameset.asp?target=fi_jobs2/default.asp) :E

Job Title: B717 Captains & First Officers
Region: Australasia
Company: Sigmar Aviation Ltd
Position type: Contract
Posted: Thursday 14 October 2004
Job type(s): Flight crew, Instructors, Managerial and Executive
Description: Sigmar Aviation, on behalf of a client, require a number of B717 Captains and First Officers for an upcoming contract. Interested applicants should have the following minimum requirements:



- Current CASA, ICAO or FAA ATPL Licence (Or equivalent)
- Current Class 1 Medical
- Current LPC
- Valid Passport
- Current B717 Captain or First Officer
- 2500 hours total time for Captain
- 1000 hours command on type
- 500 hours for First Officer minimum

[commander adama]

vigi-one

Eastern and Sunstate. THey have zero right to come across.

[Doctor Smith]

Eastern and Sunstate. THey have zero right to come across.
For someone who seems to be incapable of stringing more than 1 sentence together in a post (and never anything of a positive nature) you appear to have outdone yourself again with your words of wisdom, Adama :)

You might go and have a quick chat to the Man at "Number 42", because he has issued a memo outlining the agreement. I'll even send a copy of it to you if you want:}

Don't worry too much about being infected by the scourge of the regional pilot, Adama, as there won't be a large take-up of the offer anyway. The Progression Agreement between Eastern, Sunstate and Dragonair, Cathay Pacific and Royal Brunei is a far better proposition.

Good day to you :E

Never fear, Smith is here...

[balance]

Think you will probably find that adama was turned down by QF, Eastern, Sunstate and just about everyone else before landing a last chance job with Impulse on 1900's with all of the other rejects. He has progressed slowly up the que simply by remaining alive in that airline and now considers himself a gift to airline flying.

The fact that he has no problem with scabbery and undercutting his colleagues is apparent from his above bio.

[Z Force]

BAE146, I think you'll find that the way these recruitment companies operate is that they get wind of work coming up, advertise for positions and when they have filled them they then go to the employer with a list of pilots and qualifications and how much it will cost the employer hoping to win the contract. Personally I couldn't see them getting rid of local pilots and then bringing in foreign pilots to fill jobs that should be filled by Australians. I know it has been done before but the circumstances here are totally different. If you're concerned, shoot a letter off to the Federal Employment Minister.

[topend3]

hey adama,

and you questioned whether I worked in the industry????

you are a fool mate...

[cunninglinguist]

Whenever a contract/job like this comes up, there will always be some pie in the sky outfit that will come along and serve only to keep the real incumbents that are in the race, honest.

I would bet that the only 2 that have a hope of operating the 717s are NJS and Jetstar, the former being the favourite only because Jetstar will have more than enough on their plate over the next few years with expansion, to worry about another operation also.

Anyway, I think we will find out fairly soon.............

[Pete Conrad]

Top end and Dr Smith, don't take any notice of assdama. He is only capable of stringing one liners together.

He's a very deluded man with an overinflated sense of ones worth.

assdama, your comments are like your lower bowel, stinking and loaded with danger.

[polemic]

I have to agree with adama for about the second time in history.

They have zero RIGHT to go across to Jetstar, they have an available path(as they should) but so does any pilot meeting the criteria, be it a slightly different path. Would have been nice if a path, just a path, nothing but a path had been made available to the guys who lost their jobs when the 1900 went.

I also believe Mainline has zero RIGHT to go to Jetstar, as we have zero RIGHT to go to mainline.

It is great that paths are available but it pisses me off when people start thinking they have a RIGHT to go to other companies.

there you go I have been lured out.

[Hugh Jarse]

Polemic,
There is no "right" for the QFLink guys to go anywhere. Actually, they are at a disadvantage, because it's subject to crew needs at QFLink. So if the Link is short of crews (as we are at the moment), they probably won't release us....Everything else is the same, with the exception of endorsement costs, which will be supposedly "discounted". And they will generously get to keep LSL credits, as well as immediate staff travel.

From the way I read the memo, they'll have to jump the same hurdles as anyone off the street. I'm not gonna get into the merits or otherwise of that.

Actually, back when the B1900 guys were made redundant there was a "path" opened for them into QFLink. I witnessed several that went through the process up to sim and interview. Others chose not to for whatever reasons. (Gidday Matt.F.:ok: Hope ya like the bus).

[spinout]

It irritates me when small minded people start sprouting rights… Jetstar is owned by Qantas, just the same as Eastern and Sunstate etc and if Qantas decide that it’s ok for their staff to move between companies then it is their right.
As far as jumping through Jetstar’s hoops lets all do them shall we, including those who were employed by impulse who managed to side step the Qantas entry procedures I am sure Commander adama with all his skills would not have a problem with that….

:8

[Hugh Jarse]

Spin' I don't think I'd like to have to do the S & P again. Might find meself back as a forkie:}

But you're correct in saying (implying) that it is the companies, not the pilot groups who set the criteria (regardless of what we think).

I think Smithy is right in that not too many will take up the offer of a pay cut for more work, however :E as the career progression outside of QF offers better rewards.

Targeted applicants is the buzzword:}

[Poto]

Off the original topic however just wondering do the Implulse/Jet* pilots have to jump through the S & P plus the other tests to gain gigs with mainline under the MOU?

[Cravenmorehead]

Hey BAE146 in regards to the advertisments for crew in the paper, nothing unusual about that. No doubt it was Jetstar through connex or whatever they call themselves seeing what crew are available gives them an idea of costing re training etc. They will then use this when they submit the proposal to Qantas.
NJS know there cost base at I think will be trying to get it a little leaner through greater staff productivity whether they can or no will be incumbent on the NJS staff and management.
It is a competitive tendering process nothing sinister just QF trying to better the bottom line, just like every major company in Australia and the world. Qf is the 37th biggest company in Australia,not bad when you look at what is above it. It simply has to be lean and mean or else go the way of the airlines in the states at present

[Weapons_Hot]

DM
Last week, managed to sit with an FO who flaired, and then flaired before I could catch it - 2.15G LDGVG is not somethng both of us will forget, along with "flair, then release". :*

[cunninglinguist]

Craven, sure, every company is there to make a profit, but it would be nice if management tightened their belts every now and then rather than letting it out a few more inches.

[Capn Bloggs]

DM,

Flare and Release: The old roll-it-on trick eh! Great when it works, not so good when it doesn't:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v151/webpixx/prune/dc9tail.jpg

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Captn Bloggs Gday. That looks like one of my landings in the late 70s. I thought no one saw that one. The tech log entry stated. " Slightly larger than normal landing. Tail fell off. Aircraft U/S.

Regards DM

[Howard Hughes]

U/S?

I would have marked that NMD!!

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Weapons Hot, Dont be a fool. Just be cool and keep em spooled.
Thank christ you are here now to nail the F/O on a public forum. It was his landing wasnt it. Or was it yours?

[WALLEY2]

I do not have the performance charts for the 717, but being two engines rear mounted and slim lines ( you see nothing slips past my keen eyes )

I would have thought their STOL capabilities were less that the 146 and they are stretched for Newman and other inland north west towns.

Could some one with the charts check using 40c as ambient temp.

Topend 3, my guess is you are right to qustion this, certainly AN and now QF use Broome for a fueling stop from Kun for their Kun-Per flights and their strip is longer and usually it is less hot than Newman, though the fuel required ex Newman to Perth is much less.

My bet is the717 will be Pax limited.

[ditzyboy]

Anyone know when the decision will be made as to who gets the 717s?

Will the payload restrictions be somewhat offest be the larger jump in capacity on the 717? Obviously the 717 will be restricted alot more than the 146s. Will that play havoc with dispatch and flight planning? Just curious (and bored)...

[spinout]

The decision is made the 717’s go to Qantaslink what has yet to be decided is who will operate them…. Will it be Jetstar or National Jet contracting to Qantaslink or will Qantaslink (read Eastern And Sunstate) make a dash to the line and operate them….
:cool:

[cunninglinguist]

Wal, the fuel stop for the 146 PER-KNX was ZNE, the 300 could make it all the way with up to around 50 kts on the snout, provided no requirements in PER.
Seeing as the loads ex ZNE where around the 80 mark, the 717 will be some 2 1/2 ton lighter not to mention needing stuff all fuel so it might be OK, plus I think QF have decided to " make " it work, either way.

Ditzy, with the 1st 71 supoosedly operating ex Per 1/2 way through next year, the answer would have to be be4 xmas, you would think.

[Capn Bloggs]

I'm sorry, but the Qantaslink boat drviers are not permitted to fly jets. HE has said!

[Dehavillanddriver]

The 717 and the 146 burn around the same amount per hour.

Don't know what the tankage is in the 717, but the limiting factor in the 146 in many cases is the 9000 odd kg's that the tanks will hold.....if the 717 holds more it may be a different kettle of fish.

If the decision is not made until after Christmas, Jetstar would have to be loking good, though I suspect that NJS would have to be in a good position for a range of logistical reasons.

[topend3]

the 717's i believe will be configured all Y in 115 seat config., this provides a considerable jump in capacity from a 146-100 or 200 which seat around 64-70 pax i believe. i gather 73's will complement the 717's on routes where there is a demand for J class, and will be interesting to see how the performance pans out for the 717 and whether loads will need to be capped into some destinations.

i believe xr are adding another row of seats to their f100's to make it a 100-seater, they are currently config. 97 seats.

[cunninglinguist]

My mail is, these will have J class, as some of the routes ( and who knows, possibly all routes serviced by the 71 ) will not have the 737 on them at all.

[Capt Basil Brush]

Do these 717's have a hot galley?
If not, I guess they could be fitted.

[OverRun]

The 717 is a tight fit into the WA route network.

PER-BME looks just OK - it needs 1850m on a 30oC day at MTOW, dry, zero wind and a/c off, and there is close to 2500m runway at BME. Don't know what the 717-200 is like on very hot days, but going from 15 to 30 deg C only adds a small amount to the take-off run, so it'll probably handle the heat for takeoffs. But the fuel requirements for the leg are such that given the rather limited aircraft MTOW, passengers are a different thing. For the BME-PER leg, it won't take quite full pax (110-115 against 125 seats that the Jetstar website mentions; the actual number of pax depends on the en-route winds and '50 knots on the snout' would be worse), and of course that leaves it with nil tonnes for freight or adverse holding fuel.

Kun-Per is much worse. Kun only have a 1850m runway to start with, so spring, summer and autumn takeoffs will be tight, and the allowable TOW likely to be a close calculation each time. The fuel tankage is right on the limit, and at maximum fuel, it is on the limit to make PER with standard reserves. If headwinds are there, then it just won't do it, let alone cope with any adverse holding requirements.

And for this aircraft, if you fill the tanks, there is not enough payload left for full passengers. For the KUN-PER leg assuming that cool weather has allowed takeoff at MTOW, it will only take 86-93 pax against 125 seats (the actual number of pax depends on the en-route winds). On a stinking hot day, with reduced TOW, they could be down as low as 70 pax, or even down to 60 if there are some headwinds. Newman here we come for a tech stop!!!

Can I echo Walley2's request on the 40 oC takeoff - can anyone with the Boeing 717 performance programme give a takeoff runway length figure for 40 oC day (std + 25 oC), given no engine airbleed, nil wind, flat and dry runway, 51710kgs TOW (=MTOW for the Australian registered models)??

At least the aircraft is light-footed - with its ACN 30 for B subgrade at MTOW, it's certainly light enough to operate unrestricted on BME, KUN and Newman pavements. It might even be allowed into Perth on the 06/24 runway :D

[cunninglinguist]

..........and who was saying the 146 is not a capable A/c ??

Over, when the 717 was first mooted for the q/link routes it was suggested that they might go the way of some of the east coast 146-200s and reduce the MTOW in the flight manual, therefore reducing air nav charges ( yes folks, it has been done before ).

That would tie in with the with the config of the A/C almost gauranteed to be significantly less than the J Star config of 125 Y.
More along the lines of 8 J and 90-100 Y, apart from KA, and BRM none of the other routes really need more than 90 seats so 100-105 should be ample.

All conjecture of course but all will be revealed in the not too distant future.

[Weapons_Hot]

DM
In all modesty, wasn't me.
However, that doesn't make me less responsbile. T
he lightning sure hit the 2 sets of lightning arrester bars on the shoulders later that week.
:\

[topend3]

overun, good comments but i wouldn't get too carried away with performance figures in regards to knx-per, qlinks comittment to this route is questionable at best, with currently just a single 146 service per week and you would wonder whether loadings could sustain the retention of this service in the long term. the fact that qlink are going to retain 2 of the 146's for some routes (the 2 -300's i believe) indicates that they may continue on some of the thinner routes where the 717 is less capable.

[Capn Bloggs]

TE3, FYI, it's two a week and the friggin things are chockers every flight: that's why they go via ZNE or BME. Sorry to spoil your mirth.

The Diesel 9ski and 146-300 will be an unbeatable combination. The Fokkers won't be chockers for much longer.

Douglas McDonnell demonstrates how to land a 717! Click here.link deactivated. Sorry.

Boeing stuff here (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/717/717technical.html).

[WALLEY2]

Captain Bloggs,

Thanks for the video, amazing, sure answers the question posted above about the hot galley, I would suggest it is located forward. An even bigger thanks for the tech info!!

The reason KNX-PER is tech stopped in BME is that we do not charge a landing fee for tech stops, as the airline is not utilising all the facilities or doing business there, also being few in number the runway deteriation is not a factor.

[Orbitz]

Don't get too cocky ...

It's still a two horse race to be the 717 operator. "Don't be so humble - you are not that great." - Golda Meir (1898-1978)

[Capn Bloggs]

Orbitz,

Having just had my soul sold, I'm sure we'll be orright...:*

[James4th]

B717 MTOW= 53,500
MZFW= 45,500
MLDW= 49,900

Max Fuel= 11,200 (cold wx)

Using 115 seats only.

40º day figures to follow soon......

[Capn Bloggs]

Orbitz, check your PMs.

[James4th]

40ºC, sea level, dry, no slope, packs ON, 13º Flap, no obst, at max TOW requires 2400m.

Packs off has to be specially drawn up for individual runways.

[Capt Basil Brush]

What is the average basic operating weight of the 717?
How much fuel can it carry with 115 pax and bags?
Last question, what are the figures for a wet RWY, either at Max Wt or for 2400m available?

Thanks.

[topend3]

bloggsy,

my search of qantas.com could only reveal the one current per-knx-per schedule, i believe there were two but was one not discontinued after the dry season ended?

[Orville]

Air frieght has never recovered since Ansetts demise and Aust. Post and Patricks are getting together to biuld an operation to cover their requirements.

I hear there will still be jobs for the 146 pilots. The remaining Ansett operation ( Melb. Facility) has signed a contract to take on 7 X 146 freighters and a number of 757s',

Their Engineering requirements will be cover by the remaining Engineers and facility, which is quite substantial and definately capable to operate out of Melbourne Base.

Jobs all around, you've got to be happy about that.

[Dehavillanddriver]

I'd be surprised if Patrick and Aust Post were going to get together seeing as Aust Post is 50% of AAe along with Qantas.

[OverRun]

James4th,

Thanks for that info for the 40 oC day. The extra heat starts to bite into the takeoff performance. The weights you quoted above are a little different to those I have, and when I rechecked the Boeing site, they have updated the 717 airport performance manuals.

(I wonder if they tamed the performance down after watching CapnBloggs video)

For the basic 717-200 - not the heavy gross weight version - the latest figures are changed minusculy to reflect rounding errors:

MTOW 51,709 kgs (there are 5 weights quoted, but this is the most common weight and the one that the Australian aircraft are all registered to):
MZFW=43,545
MDLW 46,269
max fuel 11,163

James4th - you had:
B717 MTOW= 53,500 kgs
MZFW= 45,500
MLDW= 49,900
Max Fuel= 11,200 (cold wx)
Your MZFW and MLDW weights are similar to the HGW version with its MTOW of 54,884 and the fuel is that of the basic version without the optional tanks of 2,218 kgs. Is this because you're quoting an airline specific aircraft with only some of the optional extras?

The Boeing takeoff data charts changed as well. For the 18,500lb engines, which are ones that Jetstar have, the new charts say it needs 2100m (and not 1850m as I wrote earlier) on a 30oC day at MTOW, dry, zero wind and a/c off.

Capt Basil Brush: on a wet runway, the new charts say it needs 1980m at 30 oC and MTOW. The wet runway t/o length is normally more than dry runway, but for the 717-200 it seems not ! I don't know why this is so - flaps? Operating empty weight is quoted as 30,617kgs (quoted as typical weight for a/c equipped for 106 pax). It can carry a maximum of 11,163 kgs fuel in the standard tanks, but only about 9,124 kgs with 115 pax and bags on board, nil freight.

The BME runway length is still OK for MTOW takeoff at 30oC, and using James4th's data, it is OK up to 40 oC. But at KUN, the 1850m runway on a 30 oC day will only allow 48,000kgs TOW with the new charts, and that is just only enough to get 115 pax across to Broome (where they can gladden Walley2's heart by filling up before flying to Perth).

[Orville]

Your questions are good and yes you are correct AAe (Qantas) and A/Post do have agreement ...AT THE MOMENT....but things change. And I believe there are going to be a few 146's out of service in the west shortly. And between you and me I think I pointed out that there is a large, fully serviced Maint. Facility in Melb. looking for work and it is not beyond their expertise to modify an aircraft design.

I think you will remember that the first of the Wombat fleet were originally L188 pax a/c and VH-RMX was also a Pax config before being modified under the watch full eye of Ansett Engineering.

Who knows this may even get Federal Government backing. There aren't too many companies carrying out this modification and if an Aust. Company were to attract overseas dollars then it could only be good for Aus. Since the demise of the Government Aircraft Factory we haven't ventured into aircraft manufacture or design, the timing could be right ????????

[23 Metros In a Row]

Who knows this may even get Federal Government backing.

Then again.......

98 , 99 , 100......change hands

[flyingins]

OverRun,
All 14 717s operated by Jetstar are now governed by the weights James4th quoted.

[cunninglinguist]

Thrust to weight ratio almost identical for the 717-200 and the 146-100, the 71 slightly ahead with 1.34 vs 1.38.
So, an honest question.....is the 717 a slug also :confused:
( temp. ratings not withstanding, of course )

[ditzyboy]

Capt Basil -
The ex-TWA aircraft only ever had one oven. The remainder of the fleet was recently reconfigured from 3 ovens to one. So they could do J class but the press release says it will be all-Y.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Cunning linguist, at an average cruise of .78 up to realistically .81 with a ceiling of 37000 and a max of about 54.5 tonnes i think its obvious its more of a sportscar than a slug. Thankfully it still has the beautifull handiling qualities of the DC9. Just with more power.

DM

[cunninglinguist]

Thanks DM, Yeh, I guess the much cleaner airframe may have something to do with it .

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Cunning. Good point. The 717 does have one of the cleanest frames around. Compared to many other types it is a joy to fly.

Cheers DM

[Capn Bloggs]

CMon you guys! The nose is downright ugly, and the rear end is typical yank: mods everywhere just to keep it straight! Wot's that lump on the fin: my TV/Foxtel/Sat Phone aerial?!
Might be nice to fly but it sure aint pretty to look at.

[IIII IIII]

And that would be compared to what Bloggsy, the flying pig?

[cunninglinguist]

C'mon bloggs, you're gunna have to change your bias soon, it might as well be now ;)

[Capn Bloggs]

4 Eyes,
It's a Swinebat, not a flying pig.

Cunning,
I don't care what the outside looks like, it's what the inside looks like that counts. Very nice, I suspect... BTW, my soft spot will always be for the pocket rocket!

[Capt Basil Brush]

The question is, can it get to 37000' loaded?

You always seem to hear them down in the low thirties.

[James4th]

DM, I like your sentiments about the old diesel, I dont think anyone who has flown that airframe has not enjoyed the experience. I have flown, Boeings (real ones, the 717 is not a Boeing!) Airbus, Douglas and Fokker; the DC9/MD80/717 is the best.

Is there anyone out there that has flown a better airframe than the DC9 for sheer pleasure and fun?
:ok:

PS It also looks good as well.

[amos2]

yeah!...the nine was the one without a doubt!

The 737s a bit boring and the A320s a class act and the 727 guys loved the three holer, but the nine wins! :ok: