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Flip Flop Flyer
28th Oct 2004, 10:08
With Barroso pulling his proposed commission, as it would not have passed through the European Parliament, could this be a sign that the power is shifting from the commission, which is appointed by individual governments, to the parliament which is elected by the people?

It signifies a move towards a more democratic and transparant EU. If nothing else, the rejection by the parliament of the suggested commission will mean that the Italian nutcase (Rocco Buttiglione) will not be in the next proposal. Could also spell the end for a few other dodgy proposed commisars.

Even to the diehard EU haters, having an elected body reject an appointed body should be a good sign, but I'm sure our Drapes will find some hidden evil in this too.

tony draper
28th Oct 2004, 10:14
Certainly not Mr Flyer, one is all for confusion and chaos in that organisation, can't see dispute lasting very long though, not when the envelopes stuffed with cash start to dry up.
:rolleyes:

BlueWolf
28th Oct 2004, 10:15
'Tis a good thing. Democracy will mean that instead of being held together by idealists who like and want the EU, it'll be torn apart by the ordinary folk who can't stand it.

itchy kitchin
28th Oct 2004, 10:42
I just wanted to chuck my two penneth in...
Much as I despise Mandy, I saw him on the news sticking up for Mr Bolognessi-Pizzaria (whatever his name is) and saying that he's entitled to have and to express his views. Fair play. I feel though, that Signor Berlusconi ( a known anti-EU type) has deliberatly apponted Mr Buttiglioni to "chuck a spanner in the works" and it looks like it's worked!

as an aside, my grandad once told me about a newspaper headline he saw years ago: "Thick Fog Covers Channel- Europe Isolated" :ok:

Flip Flop Flyer
28th Oct 2004, 10:58
I haven't the foggiest who Mandy is, but will agree that everyone has a right to freely express his or her points of view.

However, appointing someone whos views is that homosexuality is immoral and that women should stay at home as commisar for justice and equality is rank stupidity. Furthermore, Berlusconi I would not put on the anti-EU side, and it is the chairman of the commission who decides which of the appointed members gets which position. At least, that's the way I understand the process.

Perhaps it would be a better option if the commission members were to be appointed by the elected members of the EU parliament, rather than their home governments. It would definately be a more democratic process. Alternatively, the parliament could appoint the head of the commission who would then in turn select this commisars who eventually would have to be approved by the parliament.

I think it's foolish to belive that the EU will disintegrate, and therefore would rather strive to make it a more democratic and transparent institution.

Of course, one could always hope for eternal fog in the channel :E

itchy kitchin
28th Oct 2004, 11:25
Flip Flop Flyer,
Mandy is one Peter Mandelson, former 3 times cabinet minister who was sacked, re-appointed in a different dept., resigned, re-appointed in a diff... you get the picture! He is a big crony of Blair and was instrumental in the birth on "new" labour. He is openly gay- hence the "fair enough" comment (I respect somebody who turns the other cheek in response to vitriolic statements such as Mr Buttiglioni). Mandy is on the gravy train BIG TIME as he claims taxpayers money to house his brazillian lover (there was a bit of a scandal about his eligibility to live in the EU, but thats a different story...)

The loopy italian said " I may say that homosexuality is a sin, but i would be wrong to say that it is a crime."

If you are a devout christian (which i'm not, although i do believe in a god), then you have to agree with him as the Bible (as well as Koran, Torah etc) expressly says this. The fact that he is saying this in a political sphere makes him out of order. But then again, what do you expect if you mix religion and politics?

Onan the Clumsy
28th Oct 2004, 14:26
f you are a devout christian (which i'm not, although i do believe in a god), then you have to agree with him as the Bible ... expressly says this. Where? Which Bible?

The SSK
28th Oct 2004, 14:34
Well I for one have got my fingers firmly crossed that they reassign the designated Transport Commissioner, Barrot, who seems to know (or care) not a thing about the airline business.

Heliport
28th Oct 2004, 15:03
Onan

Where does the Bible say homosexuality is a sin?
The most explicit condemnation is in Leviticus 20:13.

Which Bible?
I assume you mean 'which translation?'

King James Version
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

New International Version
"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Hebrew
Pprune software doesn't recognise Hebrew but there's a link to the Hebrew Bible here. (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0320.htm)


Punishments were rather harsh in those days. ;)

itchy kitchin
28th Oct 2004, 15:14
Onan,

Levitcus 18:22

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

Stirring stuff.

Disclaimer: This post does not in any way represent my personal beliefs. It is provided for information to Onan following a question.

BlueWolf
29th Oct 2004, 10:26
...which begs the question, if homosexuality and beastiality were both sufficiently well established in Biblical times to warrant their specific inclusion in a list of banned practices, yet neither practice is able to reproduce its practitioners, from whence did the scribes imagine such new practitioners were going to arrive?

Personally I don't care to intrude on anyone else's choice of sexuality or religion, I'm just curious.

As for the EU;

I think it's foolish to belive that the EU will disintegrate

I have to say that IMHO, the disintergration of the EU is very probably inevitable, so large, disparate, and now so far removed from its beginnings as the EEC it has become. Greater Europe, with all its massively differing cultures, languages, value systems, beliefs, perspectives, religions, and trading and economic priorities, has never been voluntarily united in history, and I just can't see it staying that way now.

itchy kitchin
29th Oct 2004, 10:57
I agree, BlueWolf.
The more the powers that be try to fit us all under an ever expanding umbrella, the more people reject it. Look at how even in the UK, we've devolved power to Wales and Scotland, and now we're talking about a regional assembly for the north.

Also, the growth of the EU has also given rise to the growth of pan-european nationalism. At the end of the day, i think that people just want to be proud of where they're from- we are, after all, social animals and (pardon the analogy) if you combine all the herds together under one name, there will be problems.

...and lets draw a line under the religeous part of this thread!

Capt.KAOS
29th Oct 2004, 11:14
It's not only the gays about whom Buttiglione has explicit views, also the woman's place in modern society. 500 year old views, unworthy the modern European society.

itchy kitchin
29th Oct 2004, 11:29
...yes, but being a woman is not a sin.

(that doesn't make sense. sorry.)

Being sexist (outdated and chauvanistic as it is) is not a sin.

Actually, come to think of it, being gay may be a sin(to some churches eyes) but is not a crime, but sexism is not a sin but may be a crime(discrimination). Interesting juxtaposition.

Vox Populi
29th Oct 2004, 13:42
Leviticus also says...(24:17)

"And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."

err.

itchy kitchin
29th Oct 2004, 14:23
...which has got nothing to do with what Signor Buttiglioni said.:*
Leviticus was mentioned to provide a background to what the italian said in the EU parliament, NOT to start a debate on contradictions in the bible.

Sorry, Vox Populi, I'm not flaming you, but let's stick to the topic. If he had said something about the death penalty- then that would have been a fair point.

Heliport
29th Oct 2004, 14:54
Fair point itchy.

Some thoughts to get us back on track ..............
NB Not opinions, just ideas for discussion.


The entire incoming European Commission has been vetoed, and the EU plunged into crisis.
Why?
Because one member who's a Roman Catholic said he believed his Church’s teaching that homosexuality is “a sin”,and is against gay marriages.

It's been described by some as "a triumph of political correctness."
Fair comment or not?
(Note - Gary somebody, the leader of Labour’s MEPs, has admitted: “This was a bit of a storm in a teacup in the beginning, but it escalated.”)

If (as I understand) all practising Roman Catholics are expected to believe that homosexuality is a sin and since (as I understand) the majority of the European population is Catholic, rejecting Buttiglioni is likely to appear an extraordinary over-reaction to most Europeans.

Is it a sign of "a move towards a more democratic and transparant EU" or an "exercise of power by the people" against the growing EU giant (as some here have suggested) or a petty misuse of power by the EU politicians for their own political ends?



Women:
Buttiglione suggested that women should spend more time making babies and less time working.




Immigration/Asylum Seekers:
He's considered by some left-wing pressure groups to be a hard-liner on immigration because he thinks there should be a clamp-down on the sweeping tide of immigration into Europe and supports Italy's view that asylum seekers should be vetted in a safe neutral country to weed out the bogus applicants before they arrive.

Extreme? Or the view of the majority of people?


He's also said he's prepared to do anything - except say something for political reasons which he doesn't truly believe.
What's this guy doing in politics? :eek: :confused: ;)