Side by side ejector seats

[18greens]

I was wondering ..

In a plane with side by side seats (JP, Hunter, Lightning etc) if you need to eject do both seats go together. If they do what stops them banging into each other on the way up and tangling parachutes etc. If they don't what stops the remaining captain getting toasted by the output from the seat??

[BEagle]

All those older generation a/c had old-fashioned cartridge seats, not rocket motors, and were suffficiently spaced to prevent entanglement.

I once flew in a Sea Vampire which was a bit cosier and one of the checks was indeed to confirm that neither pilot had managed to trap one of the straps of his colleague's seat or parachute!

[Razor61]

I thought they fire off at a slight angle so each seat, at the time of canopy release was suffiently spaced?

[Trumpet_trousers]

The seats are 'handed' such that the left-hand one will have a slight - but significant - left-hand trajectory once it has departed the cockpit, and the right-hand one will have a similar right-hand trajectory as it leaves, thereby preventing contact between seats and occupants.

[Tarnished]

The main mechanism that stops the seats hitting each other is timing. In all but the most extreme situations, one occupant would order the ejection, wait for the command to be actioned than eject himself. The pre-take off emergencies brief would include words which would define the responsibilities of the "hands on" pilot and the "captain", but the bottom line is that anyone can order an ejection and is then at liberty to pull the handle. If I were flying and I shouted "Eject, Eject, Eject" I would expect the other occupant to do just that, if he didn't respond after a polite period of time he would find himself flying a stricken aircraft on his own.

The situation you describe is not limited to side-by-side seating, in a tandem jet with selectable command eject system, such as a Hawk with an inexperienced passenger in the rear, I would want not to have the command eject active (to prevent him pulling me out when he was "touching the handle to see what it feels like" ) but I would want him to be able to change the setting if a birdstrike incapacitated me. What I didn't want to happen is for him not to eject on command, force me into going without seeing him go first, then for him to wake up and pull the handle at the same time, where he is likely to collect at least the rocket blast if not my seat. The seats are "handed" to create diverging trajectories, but in the begining you both start from the same place (just about).

The was a case BTW where a Fighter Controller was flying in the back of a Hawk and without even saying "goodbye" off he went. First the pilot knew of it was a loud bang, wooshing noise and no reply on the intercom.

Ho hum

T

[ShyTorque]

I used to paint "Follow" on the sole of my left flying boot and "Me" on the right. ;)

[18greens]

Thanks for the replies.

So even tandem seats are handed, I never knew that. Is there some form of standard such as front goes left , back goes right?

Have two seats ever hit each other?

[BEagle]

Tarnished - yes, I was one of the F4 chums down on Wattisham's runway end QRA area who was there giving that inbound Hawk with the bang seat pole poking out of the back the finger when he landed!

Sorry- have been out of the Mob for so long that I've forgotten the 'short sentences' rule so beloved of DW kiddy-speak!

The only a/c I've ever flown where you would never say 'Eject, eject, eject' was the Buccaneer. The idea being that if you did, there was a danger of the nav taking the canopy in the teeth if the pilot went too soon. Much easier just to go - that would be a good enough clue to the nav and vice versa - but at least with a stick you had a vote!

[Maple 01]

a Fighter Controller.........

Hmmmm, wouldn't be the simplest tool know to man would it?

Is he still in?

[Pontius Navigator]

Beagle, surprised you didn't mention the F4 problem. If the Nav went but the Pilot delayed there was the chance of the pilot's canopy not jettisoning.

If the pilot went too soon then the nav could collect his canopy on the way.

[BEagle]

Hmmm - don't recall that, Paunchius....

Vaguely remember that one said "Eject, eject, eject, eject......." until one heard the bang as one's rear seat person buggered off sharpish.

[M609]

The Saab 105 has a side by side layout, and the seats is indeed angeled slightly outwards. Due to this instructors (and some students) experience back pain after many sorties pulling Gs. The fix is to wear a home made "pad" in the small of their back (outside the suit). This comes in various colors, and one infamous chap had his made out of some pink flower pattern curtains from the barracks! :}

(Why they would have those curtains in the barracks is another matter......)

[BEagle]

Yes, Silberfuchs, but the original question was not about rocket seats!

[SirToppamHat]

Maple 01

Yes he is, and an SO1 to boot.

Heard him tell the story to assembled masses a few years ago at a lunch, and I have to confess that his claims of innocence were quite believable ... then again, he had probably had to tell the story a few times!

I believe there is still a reward out for anyone finding the seat? Somewhere in the Bristol Channel if memory serves ...

STH

[maxburner]

Beags,

Your memory is failing. The F4 had a problem in that the front canopy could collide with the rear seat. Either the pilot waited until he heard the bang, or he simply went first without saying anything.

[18greens]

Again thanks for the replies. I couldn't think of any side by side contemporary jets which is why I only mentioned the cold war stuff.

Any idea where I can get the video of the Prowler ejection.

[jindabyne]

BEagle

Wrong about the Buccaneer old chap - think you might be having memory fade and confusing things with the Phantom.

[BEagle]

Could well be - it was over 25 years ago.

Remind me what the Bucc SOP was?

[jindabyne]

Say those magic words, or just get on with it

[Tarnished]

Beages? What did you mean by this:

"Sorry- have been out of the Mob for so long that I've forgotten the 'short sentences' rule so beloved of DW kiddy-speak!"

If it is banter aimed at me then I'm affraid you've lost me - please explain either way.

The Hawk landed at What a Sham with tube sticking out of where the rear seat used to be, but poor mate in the front couldn't open the canopy because the tube prevented the side-hinged canopy frame getting up far enough. He had to wait for an armourer to come and unbolt the tube from the bulkhead. Plenty of time to write the accident signal.

T

[Beeayeate]

18greens . .

I couldn't think of any side by side contemporary jets which is why I only mentioned the cold war stuff.

Canberra T.4. Still current although old. :rolleyes:

[BEagle]

Banter not aimed at anyone in particular, chum. Just glad that I don't have to write single line sentences any more in keeping with DW requirements!

I didn't realise the poor chap had to sit there all that time whilst the armourers unbolted the pole though. Jet was quite a mess - it surprised as all how much damage the perspex fragments did to it.

[Agent86]

A PC9 in Saudi had the opposite happen to the Hawk...Bloggs in front seat banged out at altitude (>15,000) with command off and the Instructor in back (after recovering from the shock of losing his student) had to recover back to Riyadh with the pole vibrating madly in front of him. He then had to wait for the pole to be removed before the canopy could be opened.

Nothing as logical as a spanner.... The engineers friend...a 10lb sledgehammer ..was used to pound the pole back to whence it had come thus allowing the pilot to exit.

Seemed Bloggs thought he was going to fall out when the aircraft rolled upside down and grabbed for the nearest handle:O

The Strikemaster SOP was for instructor to call "eject,eject eject" but for me if he was still there after 2 the third was an echo as I left.

MAx

[Tarnished]

Beages,

Is DW the same as SW?

Porbably why it to me 10 years to get through ISS

T

[BEagle]

Yes- Purplespeak for SW!

Never did ISS; well, at least not for myself!

[Tim Mills]

Coziest I ever was was in the Vamp T11, in which I spent many happy hours, mostly as Sir in the right seat, now and again as Bloggs in the left for instrument ratings and suchlike. Can't remember how we briefed, probably the 'if I say go,go, otherwise you are on your own' variety.

I remember that for solo flying, a wooden facsimile of Sir, actually a wooden framework, was strapped into the right seat to stop the straps flailing about during aeros. The JP was far more sophisticated if I remember, with a canvas cover zipped up over the right hand seat straps.

The T4 Canberra was pretty cozy too.

[foldingwings]

Now then BEags, I fear that you are getting your limited time on the Bucc and your circa 500 hrs on the Tomb confused. I only ever flew one sortie in an F-4, an American one from Spangdahlem, but I did have a mate from Nav School who was killed in an F-4 in Germany when the pilot ejected at the same time as the Nav (against the SOP) and my mate took the front canopy full in the face.

The Buccaneer, I recall from a very long career on it, was not constrained in such a fashion. Only in the case of a pre-meditated ejection would the canopy be jettisoned and rear seat go first (Card 38 of the FRC refers). In all other cases simultaneous ejections were the Norm, the seats were offset left and right (which actually assisted forward vision for the Nav), had steel canopy breakers and were designed to penetrate the canopy in an emergency ejection. In latter years MDC was fitted to the Bucc canopy to ease one's passage even further!!

The only use of EJECT, EJECT, EJECT was to indicate one's intent that the mighty beast was in a terminal state and was to be committed to a lonely and uninhabited demise.

Now BEags, your facts are normally more accurate. Did you learn nothing on 237 or has time and so many types taken their toll?

[moggiee]

I recall the brief on Jet Provosts being

"If I say 'Eject, eject', don't say 'what?' as you will be speaking to yourself!"

[BEagle]

foldingwings, yes, you're absolutely right. Not enough time, too many years and types since then. Sorry to have spouted more bull$hit than ususal!

One fact I think do recall correctly was that you always checked with the nav before opening the canopy on the Bucc? Because there was a danger of impeding his ability to egress rapidly on the ground either by unstrapping and legging it or by Martin Baker? And also that if a probed Bucc was in danger of taking the barrier, the nav was likely to leave the a/c sharpish via the Martin-Baker option rather than risk the probe ending up in his face as the top cable bent it backwards? Or was that another fable?

[lightningmate]

BEagle,

I recollect the probed Bucc vs Barrier issue was penetration of the rear cockpit space by the Barrier Cable due to the top cable being restrained too low by the probe crank. Decapitation of the rear seater was considered a possible outcome!

lm

[Art Field]

Yes the JP had a seat cover for solo sorties. I do remember, Church Fenton 1966 I think, when one was left behind the canopy, not noticed and when the jet got airborne wrapped itself round the fin and stayed there. Fortunately after a rather exciting but very short trip the aircraft landed safely and Bloggs did not get any marks (except where he was beaten by QFI) for his pre-flights.