View Full Version : Apportioning blame....

25th Oct 2004, 07:35
It's Monday morning in Germany! Sat here in front of the computer resolved to turn over a new leaf, make the world anew and all that sort of thing... where to start? Ah!

I saw a rather promisingly stupid, xenophobic Jet Blast rant against German baby-killers running around putting towels on sunloungers, a practice that must be stopped. Let them sit on the hot sand repenting their sins, say I. Very sound logic there....

But there is an obvious problem for people of mixed nationality, to say nothing of the odd German who may have absolutely refrained from murdering any babies at all, even very small ones; how to apportion guilt.

Groucho Marx was once told that, being Jewish, he wasn't allowed to go into the swimming pool at a country club he was visiting. He asked if his son, only half-Jewish, might then be allowed to go in up to his knees.

So here, purely in a spirit of sweet reason and hoping to solve at least one of the major problems that occupies what passes for the minds of the tabloid-reading millions in Britain, I present a possible solution: get a life! Stop letting stupid tabloid lead articles push your buttons. This sort of thing is like asking, 'When did you stop beating your wife?'

Does anyone seriously think that leading German politicians are going to ask the Queen to apologise for the Dresden raid? I remember reading about her serving as some sort of auxiliary driver during the War. Did she also serve as air crew on raids into Germany? Truly a woman of parts!

On the other hand, if one must insist on guilt, guilt, guilt, if only to support the market for print media for the semi-literate, let's put some mechanism in place for apportioning it. My kids are only 50% German, for instance, plus we do try our best as modern parents to keep them from murdering much of anyone at all without regard to infantilism, nationality, sexual orientation or what have you. Don't these facts entitle them to use sun loungers at least some of the time, 50%, say?

I cannot come up with a workable mechanism for solving this non-problem of guilt. ID cards to show nationality and EU monitors checking same before allowing use of loungers, sun, white in colour.... That would go some way towards solving the jobless problem, I guess.

As a provisional solution, let us say that Germans are to be allowed free use of the sun loungers on rainy days only as we await a fully-worked-out, official EU solution to this, one of the knottiest problems of the new millenium.

Perhaps we shall just have to set in place some sort of guilt and counter-guilt mechanism, calling up each nation's sins, so that we all end up sat on the hot sand. That might be the fairest way to go about things. Surely you folks are not going to play the 'We won the war!' card again?

25th Oct 2004, 07:51
A very.........German..........solution. ;)

25th Oct 2004, 09:05
"Surely you folks are not going to play the 'We won the war!' card again?"

No, we aren't.

We should all try harder to let it go. I'm sick of this xenophobic stupidity as it achieves nothing.

Training Risky
25th Oct 2004, 09:26
I'm not so much worried about the past... more the present and future:(

I'll feel better when the whole Eurozone project goes crashing down around Berlins' ears and the stealthy attempts by Germany and France to rule a federal Europe are halted..... with or without sun-loungers/beach-towels/2 world wars and 1 world cup/etc/etc/etc...

It would be nicer if our quisling government wasn't so helpful to the federal cause.

25th Oct 2004, 10:07
chuks... the flaw in your plan is that you view the EU as somehow relevant.

25th Oct 2004, 10:22
There is no need for us to apologise to the Germans, in the same way there is no need for them to apologise to us.

It is all in the past, we should be learning from history and moving forward together in peace.

25th Oct 2004, 10:44
I thought the EU was The Way Forward! Are you suggesting that it isn't relevant?

I depend on them for such things as the EU-standard banana. I used to get into terrible trouble trying to eat those excessively curved ones, which would end up stuck in my ear, somehow.

Well, okay then, how about the International Court of Justice, or whatever it is called? Could they put a mechanism in place to ensure shared used of sun loungers for the non-homicidal, while barring those of us with souls black with sin?

Parking meters, with some sort of traffic wardens wandering around? There you go! Jobs for the Brits! In fact, I was in one of London's parks last summer when I noticed this fellow wandering around selling tickets to the deck chairs. You could take that as a working prototype, if a somewhat under-manned one.

Don't even get me started on a possible American solution to the problem, since that would probably involve Federal Sun Lounger Marshals. At the very least, violators would be Maced, if not shot out of hand. 'Are you feeling sunny, punk?' Ka-blam! Too, there would be the strip search and the internal cavity search, just in case, before being allowed to board your lounger.

You might be better off just rubbing along, barring the occasional outburst of rampant stupidity, as you have been ever since the War.

Oh no! I just mentioned the War! I am not supposed to talk about the War! Oh well, at least we won it. We Americans, I mean. Seen any good movies lately? Hahahaha....

25th Oct 2004, 11:09
I think I just saw a rather promisingly stupid, xenophobic Jet Blast rant based on a national stereotype. Just the sort of thing that annoys chuks so much...... ;)

25th Oct 2004, 11:22
Yeah, but I think he only wanted to demonstrate how easy it is to make the same silly use of xenophobia on the xenophobes. That doesn't lead too far, isn't it?
But I think xenophobia is too broad a term to define this sin...why not calling it what it is? Plain old stupidity?

tony draper
25th Oct 2004, 11:28
Listen you lot, if theres any xenophobia to be done round here I'll do it!!
Buggas is after me job they is.

25th Oct 2004, 11:31
I am wondering why no one is blaming the Italians. After all they invaded us a while ago, and the fact that it was 55 BC is no excuse :*

25th Oct 2004, 11:55
After all, what did the Romans ever give us?

25th Oct 2004, 11:57
Last successful invasion of the UK? 5th November 1688, Brixham. 14,000 Bl**dy Cloggies it were.

Big Tudor
25th Oct 2004, 12:04
And what about the most dispicable of Scandyhooligans? The Finns! IIRC Britain and Finland declared war on each other in the 40's. I don't hear chants of how much more sunshine we get in the winter! Nor do I hear the Finns gloating over how much better at snow clearing they are than us! :}
As for the United States of Europe, most countries can't even unite internally! :mad:

25th Oct 2004, 12:05
12 replies and no French bashing yet
Something is rotten in the state of JetBlast :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

25th Oct 2004, 12:07
I like those big words but does your average xenophobe know that he are one? Prolly knot.

There was a white, liberal, homosexual, male (2 out of 4 ain't bad) Washington, DC city councilor who had to walk the plank for using the word 'niggardly' correctly. He even apologised for this heinous deed.

And didn't some paediatrician in the UK have her house stoned by anti-paedophiles or anti-paederasts?

How often do you see it's, her's and our's for its, hers and ours? That's really pant's.

On the other hand, a steady feature of the Nigerian landscape is the 'Barbing Saloon' wherein one finds the barber, barbing. By that token you would expect barbed wire to be smooth. But if you spend too much time thinking about this sort of thing you are at risk of falling into a monsoon ditch or being run over by a motorcycle taxi piloted by a lunatic in a bobble cap worn as a sort of crash helmet. This would provoke an outburst of xenophobia if only one was not the foreigner.

Is that the same Dr Draper who was just complaining about there being nothing new on this forum? Great advances are being made every day in the field of human stupidity such that it is inexhaustible, varied and rich. The neo-Nazi who killed himself after being exposed as a, shall we say, non-Aryan? Please!

Just stop to think that half the population has an IQ below 100, by definition. And when one of those folks becomes President of the United States of America, just for an example, you want to moan about life's rich tapestry coming across as dull, boring and monotonous? Are you not being ungrateful there? Perk up a bit and enjoy the show!

tony draper
25th Oct 2004, 12:17
I have a theory that xenophobia is hard wired into us chaps, were it not so, beetle browed Neandertals would be running the place, and a short statured prothagnatious jawed hairy person with fingers like german sausages would be typing this missive
Xenophobia rules therefore I am.

Misanthropy on the other hand is a aquired skill.

25th Oct 2004, 12:22
Lust is also hard-wired, yet you don't rape the bacon lady every morning, do you ?

Nigerian Expat Outlaw
25th Oct 2004, 12:26
It's human nature to blame others for ones own woes. I blame the Germans for losing the war, the French for getting invaded (twice), the Italians for joining whatever side they thought would win, the Americans for trying to be the world's biggest police force without understanding anything about who they want to police, the Japanese for thrashing themselves with thorn branches for the last 60 years and anyone who is or might possibly be associated in any way at all with my low pay, unfulfilled ambitions and anything else bad in my life ;) ;) :ok:

BUT I'M NOT A XENOPHOBE !! I'm just a normal, well adjusted bloke who tries to be as honest as possible. Well, most of the time anyway. So I'm human, just like you !!

tony draper
25th Oct 2004, 12:40
Tiz gluttony rather than lust that describes more accurately Drapes relationship with the bacon lady, but what you say is true Mr Bre,were it not for societies artificial rules one would prolly pounce upon her drag her back to ones hut in the manner of ones ancesters, one could then eat one's bacon sarnies with a even bigger smile on ones face.

Nigerian Expat Outlaw
25th Oct 2004, 12:44
Might THINK about raping her though................

tony draper
25th Oct 2004, 12:56
Ah Mr Outlaw the Bacon Lady looks upon one in a kindly manner suggesting that would not be necessary, her hard wired system is telling her anybody who likes their bacon cut that thin is clearly a man of taste and is good genetic material to select for mating.

25th Oct 2004, 13:00
Has she good hams, Mr Draper? :O

tony draper
25th Oct 2004, 13:11
Indeed Mr Orac, she has a suitable Rubenesque aspect that is pleasing to Drapes.


25th Oct 2004, 13:34
To take this back to the original subject, I would have to say that "reserving" sun loungers by sneaking out in the middle of the night with one's towel is exactly the sort of underhand behaviour that goes against our cricket loving nation's sense of fair play.

Maybe if the Germans and French were to take up cricket we might be more inclined to join their Federal State of Greater Gaul-Sachsen...but then again, maybe not.

Nigerian Expat Outlaw
25th Oct 2004, 13:40
So it's a natural masculine thing to THINK about it then........... given the praise apportioned a portion wouldn't be out of place ??;)

25th Oct 2004, 13:50
So it`s true in your case then Mr Draper. No man can serve two masters: Ye cannot serve both God and gammon.". ;)

Lance Murdoch
25th Oct 2004, 19:05
Apportioning blame in the historical sense is a nonsense. Individual people are ultimately responsible for their own actions.
I dont blame a German of my generation for the second world war any more than I would an Englishman.
It puts undeserved guilt on the descendants of the 'guilty' and gives the descendants of the victims an unjustifiable sense of moral superiority.

Mac the Knife
25th Oct 2004, 19:41
"Misanthropy on the other hand is a acquired skill........."

Love it Drapes!

Onan the Clumsy
25th Oct 2004, 21:41
Ye cannot serve both God and gammon Maybe he could serve God and service Gammon :8

25th Oct 2004, 22:08
"Maybe he could serve God and service Gammon"

A rasher statement I have never heard..... ;)

25th Oct 2004, 23:42
Only if "He has a lean and hungry look"

26th Oct 2004, 04:55
"A different rind of loving."


Flying Lawyer
26th Oct 2004, 08:29
I'm with chuks and ShyTorque.
The sooner we let go of events which happened 60+ years ago, the better. Many of us have personal/family reasons to feel emotional about particular events, but the people who committed them are virtually all dead and gone and it's more than time to consign the bad things to history and move on.

Flip Flop Flyer
26th Oct 2004, 12:59
Allright then, I'll start:

Grandma & Granddad I forgive you for sticking me up with a rather obnoxious set of parents, especially in my teens. You may now resume your delicate task of feeding the worms.

Actually, that didn't feel to bad at all! :ok:

26th Oct 2004, 14:43
Flying Lawyer,

No. We shall remember them.

26th Oct 2004, 20:26
Any time limit on that X-quork?

Or should we just keep teaching our children and our children's children always to remember what some other country's leaders long dead once did even before we were born?

I'm happy to tell them about the heroism of their forefathers who fought and some lost their lives fighting, but raising them not to let go of old grudges and resentments for things from before they were born don;t seem healthy to me and it don't seem fair to allow historic events to influence the way we treat people who weren't born when their some of their forefathers committed atrocities.

27th Oct 2004, 01:16
One reason to not forget the history of wars is that they likely will come again.

"Civilization" may deter but does not seem to prevent the most barbarous misdeeds and atrocities in war. Certainly Germany has been a very civilized place, off and on, for hundreds of years. But the various parts and pieces of what is now Germany have also been the origin of a great many military adventures over many many many decades of internal and external warfare there.

The pattern of wars in human history is that they tend to recur in cycles....and in some places conflicts rekindle repeatedly for similar reasons. Germany has been a nexus for active warfare since the time of the Romans. What part of that is temperment and what part topography is a topic for ongoing discussion.

Similarly, the southern Mediterranean shore and its land-linked reaches over to Mesopotamia have seen very civilized people alternately uplifting and murdering one another for several thousand years.

Perhaps poverty and desperation drive the engine of warfare in arid northeast Africa and southwest Asia, but Germany is hardly poor in her climate and physical resources, so maybe the truer motive is "competition for desirable resources" ....like Gewurztraminer and Bratwurst and also shiny stuff belonging to the neighbors.

We have entered an age where warfare is not as profitable or entertaining as it used to be. Perhaps remembering daily the political misadventures of the past will help delay those of the future.

I know Germany moderately well, enjoy and respect the people, have read a middlin portion of the literature in the original language, often sample the newspapers and watch bits of German tv and overall have no grudge or misanthropy toward the culture or individuals.

That said, it seems to me inappropriate to quickly forget - for a thousand years or so - how the good people of Germany pulled together over a span of some 15 years to organize and then execute a program of warfare that resulted in the unnecessary deaths of several million human beings.

The German people living now are the direct product of the long, deep cultural river tying them in innumerable ways to the inclinations, thoughts and behavior of their ancestors. As inheritors of the assets made, acquired, and stolen by their progenitors, they also inherit the spiritual liabilities.

With the German initiative for mayhem in WW2 only 60 years behind us, I'd suggest we still have a good 940 years to go before we bury these thoughts and memories in the warm and fuzzy memory chest of things forgiven and forgotten.

27th Oct 2004, 02:31
I think the distinction between forgiving and forgetting is crucial here. I watched Schindler's List with my 17 year old daughter the other night, and it was very emotional for both of us, me for the third time. I told her it was important to keep reminding ourselves of what mankind is capable of, because the horror can wear off with time.

But those responsible are gone, most of the current generation of Germans are acutely aware of their history, some traumatised by it. I am not one of those who believe we must beat ourselves up for the sins of our fathers, just be prepared to take responsibility for our own actions, so there is really nothing to forgive modern Germans for. But we must never allow ourselves to forget, and I'm sure they would be the first to agree.

Onan the Clumsy
27th Oct 2004, 03:19
The German people living now are the direct product of the long, deep cultural river tying them in innumerable ways to the inclinations, thoughts and behavior of their ancestors. As inheritors of the assets made, acquired, and stolen by their progenitors, they also inherit the spiritual liabilities. So are Germans the only ones we should teat this way, or do we recognise the beam in our own eyes too?

27th Oct 2004, 09:18
Well, Onan, if the Schuh fits....

27th Oct 2004, 10:01
Anyone who wants to get their history from Hollywood may find himself parked up some garden path right sharpish.

Not least, in the movie they left out Mrs Schindler. At least they left in that wonderful mixture of greed. opportunism and philanthropy that helped make this modern anti-hero.

When you move around modern Germany you may see traces of past crimes and misbehaviours committed by and against the inhabitants, yes.

I always look for the big sign marking the exit to Belsen to remind myself that I have to leave the A-7 and join the A-27. Score that as one 'by' (Anne Frank and uncounted thousands of Russians).

And the city of Bremen has one tiny seqment of the old workers' quarter left, surrounded by the rather dull post-World War II buildings. Score that as one 'against' (Bomber Harris).

But anyone who wants to draw grand conclusions from this sort of thing about the moral make-up of modern Germans is barking up the wrong tree, I think. Dig around in the past of any people on the planet and you will either find dirty deeds or else the reason they are extinct or soon to be so. The Bushmen of the Kalahari, for instance, never seem to have done any harm to anyone so that they are on the way out.

For a Brit to be pointing the finger at any other 'race' as being warlike... I like that! Just so long as you realise that you are making a joke there, that is.

tony draper
27th Oct 2004, 10:31
I think for decades we comforted ourselves with the idea that the people who ran the camps were all psycopaths, it is evident now that that is not the case, for the most part they were just ordinary people like you and I, and after work many of them went home to wives kids dogs ect, and led normal lives, or lives normal for watime.
We should not forget given the correct circumstances we are probably all capable of doing unbelievably horrendous things.

Onan the Clumsy
27th Oct 2004, 13:05
That's a very good point Tony. I heard a review once for a book called "Hitler's Willing Helpers" or something like that and the thesis was that 'normal' people supported him because after all, it made Germany strong and anything being done was being done to other people and it made a lot of empty businesses and houses available. etc etc

I wonder where I would fall on the accounting sheet of history.


many of them went home to wives kids dogs ect Bet you didn't get many of them going home to cats though :ok: :E

27th Oct 2004, 13:12

I (mis)quoted a line from this:

"They shall not grow old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them"

Some words you will here every November here in the UK when we remember the British and Commonwealth Service men and women who lost their lives fighting for freedom.

I think Arcniz and Binos sum up my feelings in answer to your question "how long?".

Don't misunderstand what I am saying, I don't hate Germans or Germany (in fact I lived there for seven years and even married one), however we in the UK are especially grateful to those Allies who gave their lives in order to protect our freedom. We came VERY close to being just another State in the Third Reich - and that happened within the lifetime of my grandparents, in fact only 24 years before I was born. No, we need to keep this in the public conscience for hundreds of years to come.