Concordia University Aviation MBA

[shon7]

Can anyone give me any information on the Aviation MBA at Concordia in Montreal specific or general.

Have you heard of the program at all?
How is Concordia Ranked as a school?
How is Montreal, Quebec as a place to live and work?
Why do they tout Montreal as the aviation capital of the world?

Any other information that would be helpful.

Thanks,

Shon

[bound_for_dubai]

Montreal.. Aviation Capital of the World LOL!!!!! Thats some funny stuff. As for the school, firstly its not even listed anywhere so its either new or not very reputable. Secondly the name of the school means little its what you leave the school with that counts.

BFD

[Spenda]

Shon,

Some very quick searching on the net produced a link to Concordia University's website, and specifically to their AMBA program. http://www.johnmolson.concordia.ca/amba/index.html

I wasn't aware that Montreal is known as the Aviation Captial of the world, but suspect the reason is that it is the home to the headquarters of ICAO, the International Civil Aviation Organisation.

If you want information on how Concordia ranks in comparison to other Canadian universities, I know McLean's magazine usually publishes an issue every year which is dedicated to comparing and ranking Canada's major universities. That might be a good place to start.

I haven't been to Montreal for years and years, but I keep meaning to go back. All I have heard about it recently is good, and it sounds like it is a pretty fun town. I recently got back in touch with an old friend who now lives in Montreal. She was telling me that the cost of living there is very good compared to other major Canadian cities.

If my Canadian geography lessons from school are still any use, I believe there are about three million people in the greater Montreal area of which three quarters speak primarily Quebecois / French, and the remaining quarter speaks English.

Montreal sounds like a great place to me. If you appreciate a culturally diverse lifestyle and have an open mind, I wouldn't hesitate to check it out. As I say, all I hear about Montreal is good.

I appreciate I don't have much first hand experience to pass on, but hopefully you'll find this more helpful than the post above.

Good luck!

[lead zeppelin]

Bound;

Concordia was formed by merging two existing schools, Sir George Williams University and Loyola College, in 1974. Both schools had been around since 1926 and 1896, respectively.

The school has about 20,000 full time students, about 4,000 of which are graduate students. There are about 10,000 part time students as well.

I know two people who have taken the program, and say is was outstanding.

I guess being home of ICAO, Bombardier and Air Canada make Montreal "...some funny stuff"

You really should have your facts in order before posting.

[MLS-12D]

As Spenda says, Montreal's claim to international aviation fame is that it is the headquarters of ICAO (and IATA).

Montreal has four universities: two English (McGill and Concordia), and two French (Montreal and UQAM). Concordia is very much the 'poor sister' of the two English univerisities, and lacks McGill's resources, history and reputation. It is a very urban campus and specilizes in undergraduate education, although it does have some graduate programs (e.g. the aviation MBA). That said, it is not necessary bad (my wife did her B.Comm. degree there, and was happy enough with the place).

A great many of Concordia's students are of Arab descent. If that fact bothers you, best to keep clear. Although the university has received considerable publicity for the fighting between its Jewish and Arab students (see e.g. here (http://www.cjnews.com/pastissues/02/jan3-02/features/feature1.htm), here (http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=11854&intcategoryid=2), here (http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/591), here (http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.09.20/news3.html) and here (http://www.sphrconcordia.org/glance.htm)), I suspect that the great majority of its students are non-political and more interested in advancing their post-graduation career prospects than in arguing over foreign conflicts.

Compared to the USA, Canadian post-secondary education is mediocre. What I mean by this is that essentially all of our universities provide good, but not great, education; we don't have any Harvards or Stanfords, but we don't have any Quinnipiacs or Salve Reginas, either.

I don't know what tuition fees they are charging, but I wouldn't be surprised if it if quite high; the aviation program seems to be a 'money maker' aimed primarily at foreign students sponsored by their respective employers.

Montreal is a fun city that is more cosmopolitan than, say, Toronto. You don't have to be fluently bilingual to survive, but hopefully you don't mind learning at least a few French phrases.

[Panama Jack]

shon7,

Royal Roads University in Victoria also offers a Global Aviation MBA. I would be interested in hearing if you know of others.

bound_for_dubai . . . we're talking about a different category of education beyond Seneca or Selkirk College. ;)

[bound_for_dubai]

Oh ok, so then you must be talking about the category of education that you spent tons of $$$ and it is all meaningless because jobs now are based on who you know and experience, not the name of the school you went to. :p My Bad!

[MLS-12D]

Royal Roads University in Victoria also offers a Global Aviation MBA. I would be interested in hearing if you know of others.Here are a few:

(1) Cranfield University in the UK offers an Air Transport Management M.Sc. (http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/prospectus/course.cfm?id=16);

(2) Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in the USA offers an MBA in Aviation (http://www.erau.edu/db/degrees/ma-busadminaviation.html);

(3) the University of North Dakota in the USA offers an M.S. in Aviation (http://www.aero.und.edu/avitms/index.php);

(4) Danube University Krems in Austria offers a Professional MBA - Aviation (http://www.donau-uni.ac.at/de/studium/fachabteilungen/wirtschaft/zentren/gmcp/studienangebot/aviation/index.php);

(5) the Swiss School of Tourism and Hospitality offers an Executive MBA in Aviation Management (http://www.avpers.com/mba_main.html);

(6) Queen Noor Civil Aviation Technical College in Jordan offers an MBA in Aviation Management (http://www.qnac.edu.jo/mbain.htm);

(7) Murdoch University in Australia offers an MBA in Aviation Management (http://www.mbs.murdoch.edu.au/curriculum/courses/MBA_in_Aviation_Management);

(8) RMIT University in Austalia offers an MBA in Aviation Management (http://www.rmit.edu.au/browse?SIMID=MC045&VIEW=INTL);

(9) the University of West Sydney in Australia (again!) offers an Master of Aviation Studies degree (http://aviation.uws.edu.au/html/maviation.html).

There are probably many others.

the category of education that you spent tons of $$$ and it is all meaningless because jobs now are based on who you know and experience, not the name of the school you went toPersonally, I agree. Anyone wanting to get ahead would be much better off attending a more general MBA at an established, respected business school (Harvard, Standford, Chicago, London, INSEAD, Manchester, UWO, etc.), rather than pursuing a narrowly focused program (often offered via "distance education") at a place that very few people have ever heard of. Just my opinion.

[lead zeppelin]

Embry Riddle is pretty well known in this industry, but you're right about a general MBA - you'll have more mobility beyond the world of aviation.

[Rosbif]

Would somebody be kind enough to send Robert Milton back to one of these schools?:ouch:

[CaptW5]

Hmmmm, there were a couple of Harvard MBA's that ran Canadian Airlines Intl. before K.B came in :rolleyes:

[Panama Jack]

Rosbif, it wouldn't be a surprise to me that at some point Air Canada will be a case study on a successful turn-around. Although I also used to have my own in-home Robert Milton dartboard, in retrospect I think he inherited a broken company at an unprescidentedly difficult time in aviation history. I will agree with you that Mr. Milton has his faults like anyone else, and is probably not a talented people person like Mr. Kelleher or Mr. Bethune. In order to make an omelet, you need to crack a few eggs. I certainly wouldn't want to have had his job.

MANY thanks, MLS-12D for the listing. :ok:

[MLS-12D]

You are most welcome. Good luck in your career, whatever you decide.

[Rosbif]

PJ, I respectfully disagree. Read "Air Monopoly".

[MLS-12D]

Mr. Milton has his faults like anyone else, and is probably not a talented people person like Mr. Kelleher or Mr. Bethune. In order to make an omelet, you need to crack a few eggs. I certainly wouldn't want to have had his job.For what it's worth, I found the following information on the Web, regarding Robert Milton's compensation:

2000: salary of C1.07 million, plus C$600,000 bonus
2001: salary of C$1.15 million
2002: salary of C1.07 million
2003: unavailable

That's pretty good pay, for managing a company into insolvency! Additionally, it's reported that as part of a ‘change-of-control’ agreement in place since 1999, Mr. Milton can elect to leave the company and receive a 'golden parachute' of three years' salary and a bonus.

With figures like that, I certainly would have wanted to have his job, whatever the challenges he may have inherited from his predecessors.

[lead zeppelin]

He makes way less than Celine Dion, though!!!

"......my puke will go on..wooowoooowooooo...."

[justcurious]

While all of the schools may have their merits, the direct payoff for an MBA is not readily available in aviation, to the same extent as most other businesses.

An executive , or short-stay program such as Royal Roads, or Cranfield which would allow you to maintanin full-time employment will greatly help to off-set the costs.

While I am contemplating a different program, Cranfield has a very respected program for accident investigators. Their MSC in Air Transport can be done a couple courses a year over 3-4 years.

Royal Roads' MBA has several three week residences over two years, and the balance is group project work. The advantage I see to them (without having looked at the others ) is that you could easily add a couple of HR, or Finance modules so as to be employable outside aviation.

[WJman]

Hey MLS-12d, I'm not sure how accurate your statements concerning Concordia's arabic students are. The Concordia I attended sure wasn't a majority of Arabs, and the one my brother and friends attend isn't either. There is a lot of conflicts in the media, maybe someone could construe that, but I'm sure no one would post that type of info without knowing it first hand?
I'll also add that McGill is one of the top Universities in world and is considered prestigious. Many international and US students attend. I would say it is on parr with Harvard and others as far as education and school recognition outside Canada and the US.

[Panama Jack]

Rosbif:

PJ, I respectfully disagree. Read "Air Monopoly".

I did. Great book by the way-- what did you think of it? It helped me, to a great extent, change my mode of thinking regarding Mr. Milton. I agree that he may not be a loveable or charismatic airline CEO like Southwest Airlines' Herb Kelleher or Continental Airlines' Gordon Bethune, however, I also believe he inherited a broken model of an airline that was immediately victim of an unprescedented series of world events (9/11 and SAR's in their major hub city combined with an economic downturn, rise in costs of insurance and more recently fuel).

Most CEO's of major corporations command salaries similar to these, and those who agree to them recognize that to attract the necessary talent you need to pay money. In fact, the figures seem low compared to those of other CEO's of similarly sized corporations, and with the package, through managing a difficult situation, he's become one of the most hated men in Canada. Not great for his resume, nevertheless I understand he's been courted by other airlines offering more.

Following that logic, would you feel that the employees of Air Canada should also take a major hit reflecting the economic performance of Air Canada (ie-- no profit = no salary-- sorry kids! or perhaps Air Canada is much less profitable than WestJet, so lets say that AC employees should earn half to a quarter of what WestJet employees do)??? :oh: I certainly don't.

By the way, I do have a vested interest in this whole discussion. I am a furloughed employee, was a fairly active union member during my time there, and IF I return some day, it will be to a lower salary that was already difficult for me to live with at my stage of the game. :hmm:

[Rosbif]

PJ,
I can certainly sypathise with you as a laid off Canadian. I am in the same boat myself.
On the subject of Milton though, I don't agree with you. This guy has not produced results. He made a big bonus for producing very mediocre results. His responsibility is to the shareholders. How do you think they feel ?
Since you, as an AC employee, have no way to affect how much money the company makes, you should not suffer when the boss screws up, but the boss should.
I think that his compensation should bear a direct proportional relationship to the share price.
Blaming 9/11 is no excuse. It could easily be argued that it hurt AC's competition more and so could have helped them. In fact the modest recovery that we are witnessing at the moment may be exactly that effect. My bet is that they will find their way back into bancruptcy within 3 years. Milton will be long gone by then, so he'll be able to blame someone else and find another company to ruin.

[WJman]

I think Milton used his book to twist the facts and make himself look better. The moment he took the helm he should have been on top of things.The fact that Milton has all these things to blame AC's problems on is very convienent, there was always some other rerason, besides his incompetence that things were going terribly wrong. I agree that AC will find itself back in bankruptcy in the next few years. As an ex-AC man myself I find nothing has changed concerning general employee attitudes, there is still a lot of waste and innefficencies and management/employee relations are at an all time low.

[MLS-12D]

I'm not sure how accurate your statements concerning Concordia's arabic students areI'm not sure either. This link (http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.09.20/news3.html), provided in my earlier post, refers to "the university's 4,000-strong Arab community"; whether that number is accurate, I don't really know. In any case, I do know that whatever their numbers are, the Arabic students at Concordia are quite vocal and visible. Personally I don't think that I would have much of a problem with that situation, but some people might.

the direct payoff for an MBA is not readily available in aviation, to the same extent as most other businessesI believe this statement is accurate.

Cranfield has a very respected program for accident investigatorsQuite correct.

Royal Roads' MBA has several three week residences over two years, and the balance is group project work. The advantage I see to them (without having looked at the others ) is that you could easily add a couple of HR, or Finance modules so as to be employable outside aviation.It depends. Rightly or wrongly, there is a widespread prejudice against distance-learning EMBAs (see further the article in last Friday's
Report on Business Magazine (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/special/robmagazinecover/). I would counsel anyone contemplating such a degree to at least get it from a 'name' business school, so that you don't have to put up with the snobbish attitude many have towards very new universities.

McGill is one of the top Universities in world and is considered prestigious. Many international and US students attend. I would say it is on par with Harvard and others as far as education and school recognition outside Canada and the US.
Yes, I agree that McGill is a good university with a good reputation. I also agree that it is probably the best-known Canadian university in the USA. I don't think that it, or any other Canadian university, has anywhere near the resources of the top American business schools. BTW, my wife received her MBA from McGill.

Most CEO's of major corporations command salaries similar to these, and those who agree to them recognize that to attract the necessary talent you need to pay money. In fact, the figures seem low compared to those of other CEO's of similarly sized corporations.I appreciate that CEOs are hugely compensated. Whether those incredible salaries and perks are actually warranted is, at best, an open question (see generally here (http://money.cnn.com/2000/08/30/career/q_ceosalary/)).

Sometimes more money is required to attract talented people, but there is not exactly a shortage of candidates for the top jobs, and there is absolutely no objective evidence that Milton has more talent than the next person. As Rosbif points out, on Milton's watch shareholder equity has been completed wiped out.

I understand he's been courted by other airlines offering more.I find it difficult to believe that other airlines' boards would run the political risk of hiring someone who has a bankruptcy track record. I also don't understand why Milton would choose to hang tough in a job where everyone hates him, if he had the option of making a fresh start elsewhere for more money.

[Panama Jack]

MLS-12D,

Thanks as always for your interesting thoughts. I have tried to search the article about distance-learning EMBA's but with with no success. Would you be so kind as to cut-and-paste post the article, provide the link directly to the article, or even PM it to me?

Thanks.


WJMan,

I thought the book was relatively fairly balanced, considering it was not written by Milton or any of the characters in the book. Refreshingly, it did not in a biased nature play one character against the other, and made all of them "a little more human"-- well, at least in this reader's eyes. Talk about a cluster f#*k of an industry anyhow-- sorry, didn't have better words to describe that. I also wonder about AC's morale problems, and whether they have done enough. By your name, I figure you are on the blue team-- congrats-- it is nice to be on a winning team.


Rosbif,

I understand where you are coming from. As I said, I also used to have my own "Milton dart board," only in the last few months I have started to step back, reconsider, and give the man the benefit of the doubt. He will be there as long as he and the higher ups decide to keep him there-- yes, employees do need to look after their rights and interests, but somehow, they all need to get on the same side if Air Canada is to work out.

Despite my strong union sympathies, many airline unions have failed to recognize the changing environment of the airline industry during the last few years. This has been to the good fortune of many of the low-cost carriers.

[Rosbif]

Also consider that as soon as WJ stops expanding, and the stock options are not worth as much as they used to be, (not worth anything if the stock is falling) somebody will try to start a union there also. That might be AC's only hope.
With Milton and Leblanc both doing their best, it is not surprising that the industry is in a mess.
Maybe we should start a new thread. I would love to complain about the Fed's decision to start looking at cabotage for US carriers in Canada by airlines that we can't get visas to work at !
Free trade !!
Instead of letting the Yanks in, maybe we should let Sir Dick's Virgins in instead !
All fun topics.

[MLS-12D]

have tried to search the article about distance-learning EMBA's but with with no success. Would you be so kind as to cut-and-paste post the article, provide the link directly to the article, or even PM it to me? Sorry but I can't access it on-line. It was in the most recent issue of the magazine, which came free with the Oct. 29th edition of the Globe & Mail. Perhaps your local library has it available?

[Panama Jack]

Perhaps your local library has it available?

Doubt it. Not where I live. <sigh>