Helo's and Horses

[MD900 Explorer]

Heard today of an accident in Lincs, UK involving a military helicopter doing some low flying and came across a horse and rider a little while ago. The horse bucked and the rider sadly died.

Surely there are more instances where this kind of thing has happened. I remember once watching a helo coming up over a cliff and that scared the crap out of me. Eyeballing the pilot is an unusual experience if you are not awaiting it. :uhoh:

MD :sad:

[paco]

It happens. If you come across horses on pipeline/powerline patrol (why else would you be low flying?) :), going up, with no banking or slapping of blades is the best tactic. At about 200 feet, they don't move at all.

Phil

[Hughes500]

Could be getting into a very contenious issue here !
Horses tend to look for a good excuse to have a run, so are not normally too worried about helicopters, espically as they can hear them coming from some distance.
Having said that though the mind set of some riders/ owners has to be seen to be believed. It is not uncommon for horses to jump about at something unusal ( eg plastic bag in hedge ) - this would be the same horse that is then ridden on the road usually with no 3 rd party insurance !!!!!!!!!!
I personnally try and avoid going near horses when taking off / landing as owners tend to go overboard, forgetting that there is life outside one's horse.
As for the RAF, lets be honest if it wasn't for our armed forces we wouldn't have half the freedoms we currently enjoy. I am afraid to say accidents will and do happen.

Before I get my head shot off by the horse fratenity I own 3 !!!

[Vfrpilotpb]

Horses could be attracted by some sort of vibration frequency, for I noticed when operating Combine Harvesters you get the same effect , ie horses running towards you at top speed!

Vfr

[teeteringhead]

There's a thread on the Mil Forum (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149057) discussing horses and helicopters against the background of the tragic death(s). Amongst other points is the suggestion that horses may be more susceptible to rotary rather than jet noise. Any thoughts on that here?

[Helibelly]

Been Low flying helicopters for a long time in both the Mil and civ worlds. On pipeline patrols you've got to stay with the line almost regardless of what's below you. The bottom line is, be a good neighbour and try to avoid horses and riders. Or buy a deaf horse!

[madman1145]

An earlier similary thread with a similary case: Horses & Helicopters (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112623&perpage=15&highlight=horse&pagenumber=1)

[B Sousa]

Horses and Helicopters do not mix, but heres another one. Dont ever fly near a turkey farm unless you have lots of money. They all seem to pile up in a corner. Many a Pilot has paid for Turkeys they didnt enjoy here in the states.

Forgot to mention my horse story. A few yeasr ago after a major storm in Nevada, the local Reserves were called out to help with animal rescue. One purebred horse stuck in the mud was actually rescued by a Huey and was in a sling on the way to safety...........Yep you guessed it. Uncommanded release from 1500' Oh well......

[Disguise Delimit]

And it's always the prize-winning turkeys / emus / sheep / bulls that we get billed for. And the outrageous statements from the farmers about what the helo was doing to make his best bull filter itself through a barbed-wire fence (leaving the jewels on the wire) really annoy me.

[bugdevheli]

Its about freedom of choice you see. Nobody likes to hear of these accidents, but I would estimate 95 % of the horses I have ridden, or schooled, have not been bomb proof (horsey term for nothing spooks him/her) and yet the owners never listen. In cases where I told the owner that the animal was in my opinion downright bloody lethal on the road, it seems it was almost a challenge to them to prove me wrong. Whilst I am in no way inferring that the people or the horses involved in these accidents were of the same mentality, most of them are completely mad, but it is that freedom of choice that allows them to put not only themselves but other innocent bystanders in danger. As there are no regulations currently in place to determine whether a certain Horse is a suitable mount fit for the purpose for which it is sold or used, then accidents like those reported will continue to occur.

[MD900 Explorer]

Thanks for the input guys. I know the RAF do a wonderful job, but the rider being thrown off the horse was a little sad for my liking. :ugh:

Seems like animals have their own sensitive systems. Like dog whistles. Human can't hear them, but it sends dogs crazy, i guess the vibration frequency sets off horses.

Interesting topic.

MD :sad:

[[email protected]]

We have been round this buoy several times and come to the conclusion that since horseriding is statistically the most dangerous sport/pastime then it is not surprising that occasionally a low flying helicopter will pick up the blame for the accident.
How many people are thrown from their horses and die for reasons other than low flying helos? We'll never know because these accidents rarely warrant press space - maybe a horse riding website has the answers.

I too have spent many years at low level and tried to avoid horses with riders but you frequently spot them too late! However, if I had a pound for every rider I have seen without a helmet/safety hat on I would own my own helicopter so they don't seem to want to look after their own safety very much.

I'm sorry for the people who get hurt but that's life I guess.

[SandBlaster-214]

Okay, can't hold my tongue any longer - DAMN! ! ! Please indulge my long-windedness here but, I think both, horses and helicopters may be getting some undue "bad press" due to some (perceived) misconceptions.

Only a few things in this ol' life I know a little about - horses cows and helicopters. I ain't sayin' I'm smart about any one in particular and none of this is scientific - I'm just an old cow turd from West Texas - some of it just happened to absorb after 50 years of being around 'em.

As a life-long horse owner (and helo pilot for 30+ years), I've found, like people, horses have "personalities" - much like a kid's. You're going to find a very few horses that are afraid of helicopters and more that are not. And, as someone earlier posted, you're also going to find some of those that are not normally afraid of them are going to, on occasion, run from one just for the sake of running. Every horse I've owned or worked off of has become accustomed to helicopters to the point that they could work cows underneath a hovering aircraft. In fact, some of our ranch ponies were used in a couple of old television cigarette ads due to their docile natures near the film helicopters and it cost too much money to truck trained horses in from California (now THAT was a long time ago).

With that said, as bugdevheli pointed out, the same horse will react differently with certain riders depending upon what the horse senses from the rider. A horse knows a rider's inexperience, a rider's fear or, a rider's strength and will take advantage of any of these. We've all seen incredible film footage of horses and riders doing all sorts of stunts but, a horse, by nature, will not intentionally jump from a platform into a bucket of water. Any trainer could tell you the most important aspect of the horse and rider combination is the trust between the two.

Case in point... several years ago, I had an old gal bring a mare to the place for me to ride - said she just bought the horse and couldn't get it to do "anything". It didn't take too long to figure out the horse had been raised in a "sterile" environment. It lived in a stable, was turned out in the same pasture every day and, the only riding that had ever been done on it was in the arena. This horse was afraid because it had no clue as to what anything was in the "real" world. It took me ten minutes to get the thing to walk over a rubber water hose laying on the ground. It didn't know what the painted lines on the road were. It had never seen a train or lots of other spooky stuff but, the two things that scared it the most were horse drawn buggies or wagons and bicycles. It wasn't noise that scared her - it was the lack of noise from a moving object. Put the same wagon behind the pick-up truck and she was fine 'cause she knew what a truck was and the truck was making noise. And helicopters? She would stand at the fence and watch the helicopters all day - never flinch, almost as if intrigued (the hanger was about 500 meters from the horse pasture).

Anyway, worked the horse for two weeks - had my little ten year old neighbor girl working cattle off her - running some barrels, etc. The old gal came back out out and promptly had a runaway because "she must have spooked at a rabbit". Simply, the mare didn't trust the rider was going to keep her safe. Needless to say, I ended up with another horse (okay, I gave it to my ten year old neighbor girl to run speed on).

There was a question as to their being more afraid of helicopters vs. jets. From my experience it's the opposite. There used to be an old "oil burner" route that came across our place and, on occasion, we'd have quite a bit of military jet traffic (back in the days when they were allowed to break the sound barrier). The horses, for the most part, weren't scared by the noise, again it was the lack of noise at first. It was interesting to watch, as they would run from the sight of the fast moving aircraft but stop and look when the noise caught up. In the same context, I've seen EMS helicopters land near the rodeo grounds to pick up a patient and the only horses that pitched a fit were the ones that couldn't see what was goin' on - either in stalls or in trailers.

I'm of the opinion that horse don't want to be afraid but, when startled, their natural instinct is to put some distance between themselves and the object that scared them (fight or flight). Once they get that "safe" distance, they'll stop and look for whatever it is that startled them. If you're low level in a helicopter it's easier to "sneek" up on horses because you tend to "blend into" the surrounding environment. Sure you're loud but, until seen, it's just noise. Also too, a horse's sight picture is completely different from a human's. A horse has different "blind spots" and needs to be in different positions in order to "see" and a horse will want to see what's going on. It's natural - self preservation. Did the horse come unglued because it was afraid of the helicopter or because the rider was attempting to keep it from looking for the source of the noise? Just because the horse may trust the rider doesn't mean it's not going to react when startled. The rider must understand how and why the horse is reacting in order to keep control. As Hughes500 points out, ever see how horses react to a plastic shopping bag being blown across the ground by the wind? If you're any kind of a rider you can anticipate you horse's reaction. If you see a plastic bag acomin', screw yourself down 'cause your horse may be fixin' to try and step out from underneath ya. Likewise, if ya hear something coming like an aircraft or train, you can associate the sound as a non-threat without sight and dismiss it - a horse, on the other hand, is more likely to need to both see AND hear it at the same time to associate it as a non-threat.

I'm with ol' Hughes500 and bugdevheli on this. I think the owners'/ riders' mentality is more to blame than the horse or pilot. There are more horse wrecks involving some ol' boy or some ol' gal, green as hell, who've gone out and bought a shiney new pick-up truck, trailer, hat and some high powered horse and take off hell bent for leather thinkin' they know everything there is to know about ridin' than there has been with anything else including helicopters.

Anyone ever seen or been on a "trail ride"? That's where ya get up to a couple hundred or so riders and horses and buggies and wagons all thrown together with bar-b-que and beer and these folks ride for up to a couple of weeks on some of the big ones. Usually associated with a big county fair or some other shin-dig. The big ones even have their own EMTs and police or sheriff's escorts. Which begs the question, why in the world would ya need your own EMTs? Riiiiiiight... Now, let ol' Billy Joe Bob from East Texas get drunk, fall off his horse on Farm Road 1960 and bust his head open and it's "aw, what a shame". Let there be a helicopter within 50 miles of the same wreck and it'd be "Multiple Causualties as Low Flying Helicopter Spooks Trail Riders" and they'd be interviewing ol' Betty Lou on the six o'clock news about how terrifying it was to the riders and horses and there ought to be a law against it.

Like I said, I ain't no Norman Einstien here and I've been in more'n my share of runaways and had my nose drove into the dirt more'n I'd like to admit but, I've never had the audacity to blame it on anyone but my own dumbass. Ol' crab hit it on the head - as pilots, we do what we can to "be neighborly" - that's the professional in all of us - but, sometimes people get hurt - that's life.

(...and that's my my humble, long winded opinion on this part of it)

[madman1145]

:) :} :O :p - SandBlaster-214, you crack me up - well said, SO well said :ok: ..

Where I'm from, there are only very few helicopters (yet) so the problem isn't here. But when the boys where passing low in their F-16's, it didn't seem to be the noiseless shadow or moving object that spooked them because it happened so fast, but the sudden jetnoise - but of course, as you say, they need to associate a noise to an object and vise versa ..

No need to point out where you are right Sandblaster, I can only comply 100% with everything you said ..

Last summer I was on a 6-days trek in the Sierra Nevada mountains (Spain) with 7 other people I didn't know. The person making the trek demands min. medium experience on horses - and what quality of horses, absolut premium quality, hot Arabian and Andalusian horses (behaving much like the Thoroughbred I had) - there was this British couple that tolled the owner they had been riding for some 2 years. If I didn't know of better, I would have said they had seen a horse for the first time the week before. The man felled of the horse 5 times that week, even once when he had to get on it, it was standing still - asking me how do I make my horse galop like that - blasting out in traffic entering mountains roads with cars breaking hard - nearly pushing a fellow over the mountainside due to his out-of-control horse etc. etc. - had absolutely NO control what so ever of the horse ..

So yeah, there are several ****ty and really ****ty riders out there (and drivers because every Mr/Mrs Doe can drive and ride), thinking they know everything about horses after some weeks or years of weekendtraining courses ..
Don't blame the horse, it's just doing what it thinks is best for itself to stay alive (plus occasionally making fun of the in-experienced rider :O ) ..

It's so easy to blame others of ones faults, especially a pilot who will not be there to defend him/herself ..

[MD900 Explorer]

Sandblaster - 214

Everyday is a school day, i have to say that i had no idea of those characteristics in the horse. I certainly have learned alot from your reply. Thanks :ok:

MD:ok:

[Time Out]

Coroner criticises MoD over low-flying aircraft
By Sally Pook (Filed: 28/10/2004)

A coroner is to urge the Ministry of Defence to restrict training in low-flying aircraft after a jury found that a rider fell from her horse after it was "spooked" by a Chinook helicopter.

Heather Bell, 38, a mother of two daughters, was riding with friends through a farm in Middle Rasen, Lincs, when her horse bolted after it became panicked by the aircraft.

The horse charged off, throwing her "like a rag doll" as it went round a bend. Mrs Bell later died in hospital from severe head injuries. Yesterday, at the inquest into her death, a jury found that the MoD had failed to take appropriate measures to protect the public from its low-flying aircraft.

It said there was no prior warning of low-flying given to the public, and also nothing available to the helicopter crew to identify the presence of horse riders, other than visually, while in flight.

The jury, which gave a more detailed verdict under new rules applied where public organisations are involved, said the aircraft should not be allowed to fly as low as 50ft.

Stuart Fisher, the Spilsby and District Coroner, said he would write to the MoD with recommendations based on the jury's verdict.

He said: "I will certainly be suggesting that the current areas available for low-flying training should be significantly reduced, perhaps back to the level before 1979, when it was 40 per cent."

The jury, sitting at Middle Rasen, said that the low flight of the helicopter and the noise it made while passing over the village had ultimately contributed to Mrs Bell's death.

The jury found the crew had complied with MoD rules but said current policies did not take "appropriate precautions" to protect the public.
source (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/28/nlow28.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/10/28/ixhome.html)

[Ascend Charlie]

Press Release:

Honeywell Corporation today announced the launch of the horse detection system called Equidar.

The Product Manager, Mr Pferdenscheiss, said:"This new radar will give aircrews a warning signal whenever the intended flight path comes within 300 metres of a horse. Several commercial operators of helicopters have been bankrupted by lawsuits involving horses being panicked by low-flying aircraft" he said, "and this Equidar is far cheaper than a new Mercedes for a lawyer."

Mr Pferdenscheiss added that the radar was still under development, and is having a few teething troubles, giving warnings whenever it passed a petfood cannery or a well-stocked supermarket.

[MReyn24050]

Ascend Charlie

I guess it will be pretty useless when flying in France or Belgium!

[Bertie Thruster]

The Lincoln County air ambulance attended this riding accident. Most of the countryside around Middle and Market Rasen is difficult ground on which to carry out equine friendly ad hoc hems landings. Even with extended 500ft recces, it is not always possible to spot all the horses that seem to pop up all over the place in this well-known horse training and racing area.

It is a bit like trying to operate around the Newmarket area, but on a smaller scale.