ATPL ground school UK

[Fergal20]

Hi all. I'm looking to do the ATPL ground school on a full-time basis somewhere in the UK. I am currently looking at London Metropolitan University but their start dates don’t suit me and I’m looking for somewhere that I can do some leisure flying at weekends.

My question is: can anybody recommend anywhere that I can do the ground school? I have done a search but didn’t find anything that I was looking for (before I get slagged of!!!:\). Thanks.

[FlyingForFun]

This CAA document (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_APPROVEDFTOS.PDF) contains the complete list of schools which are approved to offer the course - both the Residential and the Distance Learning options.

There aren't all that many choices, so it shouldn't take you too long to contact all of them and make up your own mind which suits you best.

FFF
--------------

[Trislander]

Hi,

Don't know where abouts you are but I can highly recommend BCFT at Bournemouth.

www.bournemouthcommercialflighttraining.co.uk

Cheers, Tri

[Fergal20]

Thanks guys. I have narrowed it down to EPTA or BCFT. Since they are both located at the same airport, location and accommodation doesn't help in deciding.

Anybody been to either school got any opinions?

Thanks;)

[daw]

And EPTA are about half the price of BCFT which doesn't help either as it renders more questions than it does answers.

[Keith.Williams.]

The reason EPTA is able to offer such a low price is because we are able to obtain EU grants for our students. A number of other schools tried to prevent us from doing this but they failed. They are probably now trying to arrange grants for their own students but this will take some time to do. This is because to do so the school must enter into a partnership with a College of higher/further education.

The only real question is whether or not you wish to claim your government grant.

[daw]

Nice bit of PR there Keith. You didn't sell used cars in a former life did you?

Seriously though, any catches to getting the reduced groundschool rate. For example are there any age barriers at all for those of us who have shall we say more life experiences :)

[Alex Whittingham]

I don't think anyone would want to stop students receiving grants, that would be ridiculous. Most schools would take the view that, if grants can be legitimately claimed, they would like their students to get them too. If the grant goes through the school it could be used to reduce the course prices.

[daw]

Which is pretty much what LGU has been doing for years.

[Keith.Williams.]

Everything that I said in my previous post is true. In the past only Glasgow and LGU students enjoyed these grants, but EPTA students now do so. Hopefuly all schools will eventually get their acts sorted out, and all students will benefit.

The only condition that must be satisfied to obtain the grant is that you must be an EU citizen.


ALEX,
At least one school has tried to stop our students from getting the grants. And yes it was a ridiculous thing to do, but they did it anyway.

[Alex Whittingham]

Indeed, and all credit to them. LGU and Glasgow have been historically able to claim grants because they're non-profit making organisations. If EPTA's grant method is legit we would all be very pleased to follow their example. At the moment EPTA's prices haven't changed since before the grants. Presumably you'll be chopping the price by £1600 then Keith? Or have you just trousered the grant money?

[DVR6K]

Can recommend Oxford. Am here at the mo on the APP, having a cracking time and the books are very very good indeed. Not cheap, but why go somewhere else and use Oxford's books when you could come here and have the people who wrote them explain it all to you??? Very easy to understand what's in them and much nicer all round than the other stuff on the shelves at the moment. Have worked through a couple of titles before now and they are not nearly as user friendly as the OAT stuff.

Ta ta

[MEA321]

I am looking for information regarding the residential ATPL theory course at London Metropolitan University as compared to other organisations across the UK.

Specifically, I want to know if it really makes a difference where the course is taken, or if all the organisations give an equally good education. Moneywise, London Metro has one of the cheapest offering.

What are the facilities like? How much does it cost to live in London for a period of six to seven months? Where in London is the campus located, and near which general aviation airports?

[Keith.Williams.]

ALEX,

As you are aware the CAA have looked at this and they are perfectly happy with it. If it were not legitimate they would have stopped it by now.

As you are also aware, our price for full time groundschool was approximately £4000 prior to the introduction of the grants. we did do a special offer at a reduced price for students who were prepared to sign up with EPTA for their entire training. But the new reduced price includes no such restrictions.

All EU students can get the reduced price even if they only wish to do the groundschool with us. If you really believe that we are as you say "trousering the money" perhaps you could explain why our price is about half that of BCFT.

If on the other hand you consider special offers to be standard prices, then presumably your offer of free courses to the pprune fund means that this is now your standard price to all students.
I must confess that it is very good value if it is true.

The simple fact is that by obtaining government grants, we are able to offer our courses at vastly reduced prices. This can only be to the benefit of students. Unfortunately this has ruffled the feathers of those schools that have tried but failed to introduce the system.

As I said earlier, hopefully all schools will eventually adopt the scheme. But I suspect that some will continue to try imply that the system is somehow illegimemate until (of course) they manage to get their own arrangements in place.

Now wouldn't your time be better spent organising grants for your own students instead of attacking EPTA. With the benefit of the grants you could probably reduce your price to a couple of hundred pounds.

[Alex Whittingham]

The CAA are notoriously poor policemen. Remember SFT?

EPTA have never advertised courses for more than £1995, plus VAT. You've always sold the course as a loss leader.

I do, however, clearly remember you making a huge fuss about how the course price was going to be reduced because of the grant. Where is it?

I also remember you taunting me because I wasn't clever enough to figure out how you got a grant. Now, when you start that sort of stuff you're chucking your cap in the ring. Fair cop, I'm not the brightest bulb in the box but, if it's legit, I'll figure it out sooner or later and then you will see a real price reduction in distance learning courses. All information gratefully received. I imagine you're having to pay Bournemouth & Poole College a cut to use their name but there should be a fair bit left over to bring the prices down, which you have not.

Your parent company, CABAIR, have not adopted this revolutionary idea. Why not?

[Martin1234]

"Now wouldn't your time be better spent organising grants for your own students instead of attacking EPTA."

Interestingly, both Alex and Send Clowns (BCFT) have spent their time on this forum helping me along the way on my studying for the ATPL exams. Sending me, as a non-student, a PM with advice and even offering me further help is really an attitude appreciated by me. If this is a reflection of the schools you can't go wrong by enrolling in either one.

[Keith.Williams.]

ALEX,

The standard EPTA groundschool price has always been in the region of £4000. This has been the case from the very first course and is still the case today.

Under the old (pre-grants system) a reduced price was charged to students who signed up for the whole groundschool/CPL/IR/MCC package. But those who wanted only the groundschool paid the full price.

Since the introduction of grants there is no requirement to sign up for the whole package. All EU students who sign up for the groundschool benefit from the grants, such that the price is vastly reduced. In effect the EU pays about half of the course price.

But the grants are provided by the EU and are available only to EU citizens. All non-EU citizens must pay the full price which is approximately £4000. I use the word "approximately" simply because I do not have the exact figures here in my home.

Evidence of all of these facts has been provided to the ASA in response to your complaint. Indications are that your complaint is about to be rejected, just as your previous complaint to the CAA was rejected. Hopefully you will then move on and start working to get the grants for BGS students.

Readers should understand that those schools which have not yet made arrangements to obtain the grants, have a vested interest in trying to denigrate the system.....until of course they are able to obtain the grants for their own students.


MARTIN
It is certainly true that ALEX and CLOWNS provide a lot of free advice and help in these forums. If you do a search you will find that I and various other people do exactly the same. This is not an indication of the quality of any particular school. We do it quite simply because we want to help students and we enjoy doing so.

[Trislander]

If you are going down the DL route then bristol.gs wins hands down, they have come highly recommended by several pilot friends and by a current student I'm mates with.

I work better in a lecture type environment so I chose a Residential course.

It is not my place to slate EPTA because I am not a student there but I did look into them as well as BCFT when I was making my choice. As they say, first impressions count and on the day I visited both the schools my mind was made up.

This is why I chose BCFT:

-Smaller class sizes (Max 15 rather than 20+)
-Genuine interest from the instructors in ME rather than my wallet
-Wasn't whisked off into an office by a sales rep a soon as I entered the premises
-Had a chance to chat alone with the current students to see what they thought of the place
-Wasn't given an irrelevant tour of European Aviation's flight simulator hall
-Chatted informally with an instructor and was shown the training manuals
-Didn't have a load of building work going on right outside the classrooms!

BCFT are well worth the extra dough IMHO, and I have yet to find fault with them

Tri :ok:

[Fergal20]

Thanks for all the replies. I would really like some further views from anybody who is currently or has done the ground school at EPTA or BCFT. I shall be taking a visit to each of them soon so I would like all the info I can get.

Thanks again:ok:

[wbryce]

Im looking at the same possibilities as Fergal20 on BCFT and EPTA, i am planning on visiting both but since I stay in Scotland, its a long way down, dont know wether to make it a cross country flight for experiance or drive! any views would be appreicated too.

[Mosspigs]

Have you considered a modular approach in the comfort of your own home at your own speed, for a fraction of the cost.

I mention it as a couple of the people on my crammer course wanted to get the job done quicker than the integrated school’s timetable would allow them to.

Add the excellent support package from these schools, the crammer courses and a smattering of self discipline, one can have it done in a jiffy.

I am more than happy to endorse BGS as indeed are numerous other successful punters, but it's worth keeping your options open.

[Keith.Williams.]

TRISLANDER,

It is good to hear that you are happy with your training. But some of the factors which you have listed as justification for the higher price need further examination.


"Smaller class sizes (Max 15 rather than 20+)"

EPTA has never had a class of 20+. The largest that I can recall was 17. The average class size over the past 2 years has been closer to 12. I have heard that BCFT guarantee not more than 15 in a class. But is this not simply because their rather small classrooms could not accommodate more than 15? If we were ever to have a class of 20 at EPTA, the students furthest from the instructor would still only be in the third row. The fact is that EPTA classrooms are far more spacious than those at BCFT.


"Genuine interest from the instructors in ME rather than my wallet"

If you talk to any of our students you will find that they are delighted with the attitude of all of our instructors. For example, it is not at all unusual for instructors to give up their lunch breaks to go over any problem subjecst on a one to one basis with students. You will also find that they are all absolutely baffled as to why anyone would want to pay almost twice as much to go to BCFT. A further significant point is that EPTA and its ground school instructors will never charge you anything for this extra tuition.

The BCFT instructors may well be interested in the welfare of their students. But can you say the same of the management? Earlier in the year the CAA wanted to have an examination centre at Bournemouth. They were particularly keen to conduct a trial during the September exams, when an unusually large number of students would be participating.

Having spent the best part of three weeks researching possible venues, I suggested five possibilities. The first four were hotels, all of which would make a rather large charge for their services.
In each case there was also a possible problem with parking and regular long term availability.

The fifth was an offer of the free use of an EPTA classroom. This could have accommodated all of the students from the Bournemouth schools, plus an extra 8 or so from other schools. All concerned were happy with this arrangement, until the BCFT management decided that they were not prepared to let their students use the EPTA classroom. They would prefer that their students incur the additional cost and inconvenience of going to Gatwick. Because of this the trial was cancelled and an extra room was used at Silsoe.


"Wasn't whisked off into an office by a sales rep a soon as I entered the premises"

It is certainly true that Liz likes to provide a quite area in which to conduct discussions. Most prospective customers prefer this as it enables them to discuss their worries and problems in private.


"Had a chance to chat alone with the current students to see what they thought of the place"

I always advise prospective customers to do this. The comments made by our many happy students are the best possible advertisements of the school.


"Wasn't given an irrelevant tour of European Aviation's flight simulator hall"

Many prospective customers are interested in seeing the full range of facilities that we have availalable. The European Aviation simulator is the one used for the MCC, so it is relevant to people who may envisage doing the whole programme with EPTA.


"Chatted informally with an instructor and was shown the training manuals"

I and all of the instructors are always delighted to chat with prospective customers. We are also very pleased to let them see our manuals and to discuss their strong and weak points.


"Didn't have a load of building work going on right outside the classrooms"

It is true that building work was being carried out in an ajoining part of the building earlier in the year. This was beyond the control of EPTA. But it lasted only a few weeks and was completed many months ago. Can any school really say that such work will not affect them at some time in the future?

[Send Clowns]

Although this is a rumour network, Keith, it is not really acceptable to post inaccurate rumours about your competition.

If you want a chat about our respective management, I am very happy to, but you must know that I used to work for yours. Plenty of people here remember the past - it was almost exactly 3 years ago, wasn't it? How much did students lose by that? Compare that to our management. A good example, the reason we only have small classes is that our management actually listen to us, and operates the schools how the instructors think they can teach, rather than for pure profit. The classrooms are approved by the CAA for 24 or 25 students, giving plenty of room for the 12 students we prefer or the guaranteed maximum of 15. Are your management as supportive? How are the notes by the way?

You may not understand why people pay extra. I would argue that you have just told us - the very fact that you don't understand what extra our students get here is the reason they come here to get it. Come across, I can show you. We can take the competition, even if you do learn from us.

[pseudonym66]

You have to be careful here in who you believe, do you really know whose giving you the advice? I can tell you this that I know of at least 10 -15 people who left Bristol and went to other places with better instructors and a more "hands on" approach with the students. If your impressed by expensive clicky CBTs then your going to buy the Bristol package (it won't be a quick easy way to learn) If you have previous experience then you'll get by o.k. The other options are Oxford and GTS in the Bournemouth, GTS being the RAF favourite and rightly so and if I were just starting out they would be mine. Oxford are also good but bristol if you live in London forget it. 3 hrs away and over- rated 25 to a class, a rushed 2 weeks programme and some very unhappy ex students.

[Penworth]

wow, that's the first negative feedback about BGS I've ever heard on here - and from someone making their first post as well ;)

Personally I thought Bristol were great. Yes there was a lot to get through in the 2 weeks, but they never felt rushed. You're right about the higher numbers to a class though.

As for your comment on expensive clicky CBT's, I don't think there is a "quick, easy way to learn". You simply have to put in the effort yourself. At the end of the day, that's what it comes down to.

PW

[helicopter-redeye]

I agree with Psuedo66. Check out GTS in B'mouth as well.

Small but perfectly formed, with class sizes of 5 to 8. And as much extra advice as you want.

They never seem to get much air time on PrUNE but people should remember that they are there in their evaluation of the possible options.

h-r

[Keith.Williams.]

SEND CLOWNS

I have waited 24 hours before replying to your post because I have no wish to be drawn into another long and dreary argument with you. But some of your point require comment.

QUOTE
Plenty of people here remember the past - it was almost exactly 3 years ago, wasn't it? How much did students lose by that?
UNQUOTE

The strange thing here is that you appear to have forgotten all about the past.

Was it not you and most of BCFT who actually worked for SFT?

When the first rumours of impending problems started to surface in this forum, was it not you who shouted them down?

Did you not claim that no such problems existed, but might be created if groundless rumours were to spread?

And after the company had folded was it not you who spent several months constantly arguing that no students had lost money, and that the company was basically sound and simply had a small cash flow problem?

Was it not you who suddenly changed your tune and started to attack your old friend and previous employer, only after taking employment with BCFT?

Now here's the difficult one Clowns; Readers who have followed the whole sorry story over the past three years might be wondering whether you were being very foolish then, or are being very treacherous now. HMMMMMMM, now that IS a difficult one!

QUOTE
Compare our management. A good example, the reason we only have small classes is that our management actually listen to us, and operates the schools how the instructors think they can teach, rather than for pure profit.
UNQUOTE

Then why are you unwilling to allow all of our students (EPTA, BCFT and GTS) to use an EPTA classroom as an exam centre? It is offered free of charge and we are content for bookings to be made on a first come first served basis. Compare this with OATS who make a charge to the CAA for their exam room and still get first chance of booking places.

The offer is still open. We will provide a room every second month when our students take exams. BCFT can provide a room on alternate months when few if any EPTA students will be taking exams.

BCFT students should have some very serious discussions with with their school managemnt if they want an exam centre at Bournemouth. It can probably be in place by January if BCFT agree. But will they?


QUOTE
The classrooms are approved by the CAA for 24 or 25 students, UNQUOTE

This just illustrates your lack of knowledge of how the system works. The CAA do not approve classrooms for any specific number of students. There is however an overall limit of 24 students in any ATPL groundschool class, without exceptional approval from the CAA.


But I suppose they might impose a specific limit if they found that a given room was unusually small. If they imposed any specific limit on the BCFT classrooms then this is very unusual. They certainly imposed no such limit on the very large rooms available at EPTA.

[Alex Whittingham]

Oh dear, Keith.

The idea of having a new exam centre has been floating around for some time. GTS suggested, not surprisingly, that the new venue be in Bournemouth and others, amongst them me, suggested that it be elsewhere.

The CAA put out a specification for a trial which was that the new centre should should seat 70, have catering and car park facilities to match and be available free of charge. Not surprisingly, the last point is a stumbling block, particularly as the CAA rake in over half a million pounds a year in exam fees and at the moment pay Oxford, Silsoe and Glasgow for the use of their facilities. Your attempt to put forward your spare classroom was doomed to failure from the outset because it failed to meet the basic specification, you can hardly blame the other Bournemouth schools for not willingly supporting such an idiot idea . Why not use Clowns spare classroom instead, or GTS's?

For my money, they need an exam centre somewhere near Manchester, not another one in the south.

[Keith.Williams.]

ALEX,

The CAA were quite happy with a capacity of 45. They also indicated that they would use EPTA provided the other schools in the area agreed. GTS agreed but BCFT did not.

I can understand that you would prefer any new centre to be closer to Bristol. I even suggested one at Dorchester which is about midway between the two.

The fact is that we came within a whisker of having a centre at Bournemouth. The ONLY thing that stopped it was the BCFT refusal.

[Send Clowns]

Keith,

Do NOT misrepresent me and what I am saying. NONE of the SFT management came to work for BCFT. You are talking about ground instructors. SFT had as good a reputation in that area as PPSC by the end of 2001.

Much of the rest of what you say is simply lies about what I said, or talking about what I said having been lied to or mislead. Remember who mislead us if you want to continue this discussion, Keith.

Apart from the above, I don't want to comment as I don't wish to get into an unseemly argument with you.

[Sky Wave]

pseudonym66 it sounds like you only have 2nd hand information about BGS. Since you didn't go there how can you comment? I would not criticise any other school since I do not know their strengths and weaknesses. As I have no basis for comparison for all I know BGS may be the worst school around, but their results and student feedback suggests they're probably the best. From my point of view, the instructors were superb, the course was interesting and I passed all 14 exams first time. If EPTA, GTS or BCFT are better than they must be extremely good schools but as I said who am I to compare, I’ve not studied with the others.

I also find it strange that you call the Bristol CD Rom expensive and clicky. The BGS course is amongst the cheapest around and the CD is merely a copy of the manual with the addition of animations which certainly helped me grasp some of the many difficult areas of the ATPL LO’s. It's also very useful for someone who takes the train to London on daily basis to be able to work from a laptop rather than carrying paper versions back and forth. The electronic progress tests are another excellent feature of the BGS CD as it gives you instantaneous feedback on your progression and it allow BGS to monitor your progress.

I think people on PPrune would prefer to have feedback from ex-students rather than 2nd hand information from someone who never went there.
:ok:

[Fergal20]

I'd love to have some feedback from any students who went to either EPTA or BCFT, but there doesn't seem to be that many???

I'm not considering BGS or GTS because they are both distant learning and I want full-time residential.

[G-DANM]

I think when looking at Ground schools I shall consider those which are professional enough to not engage in petty squabbles amongst themselves on an internet forum.

[OneMileHigh]

Good Grief..................This thread has really turned into an interschool slagging match.

Come on boys: It is unseemly and unprofessional. All prospective students to the Flying Profession are expected to have a higher level of intelligence than the average driver. They know where to go to get the information regarding different schools, and using thier supposed higher intellect they make a choice.

But to see such highly regarded people bickering in public isn't on.

ALEX:

I'm most surprised at you. You and your school have a high enough regard without getting embroiled in such petty squabbling!

[scroggs]

While I have no wish to see schools (or anyone else) arguing on here, I have no problem with the background to the process of organising a new exam venue being discussed. I'll bet that very few wannabes have any idea of the negotiation required to get the various schools to agree on anything at all! This topic, I'm sure, is beginning to give you a clue...

However, I'm unhappy at Clown's use of the term 'liar' in this discussion. I'm aware that there are still strong feelings about the demise of SFT and PPSC, but I think that a little circumspection in the terminology used wouldn't go amiss! Calm down (said in broad scouse accent!).

Scroggs

[WX Man]

*** Feedback from a past student ****

I did my full time groundschool at BCFT, and I was pretty happy with 95% of it. My only reservations were in the Met manuals, and some of the engines manuals, which could have been much more explicit in their explanations.

They have good feedback (or at least, when I sat the exams I found the feedback perfectly adequate).

The learning atmosphere there is second to none that I have experienced- good, relaxed atmosphere, approachable instructors and an 'open door' policy everywhere.

I got 1st time passes in all 14, and that's partly due to the quality of the school, but due also to the fact that I put in a f*** of a lot of study outside of class. I reckoned on doing about 2-2.5h (sometimes 3.5) on weekday nights, and 5-6h on a weekend day (with the other weekend day off- usually Saturday, recovering from the hangover that was a result of Friday night's excesses. And believe me, it's possible to go to excess in a big way in Bournemouth!).

Different schools are different things to different people. My gripes with the Met & Engines manuals weren't shared by any of my colleagues. By the same token, some people found the CBT that was used in instruments very useful: I always find CBT useless, boring and frustrating- but that's just me.

I've recommended BCFT to people in the past, and these people I don't think have made any regrets when they've taken the decision to do their ATPL groundschool there.

[helicopter-redeye]

It would make a lot more sense to locate an exam centre in N England. At the moment the closest to "The North" is Silsoe, which can be a 3 hour drive.

If the CAA is serious about the exams being a national institution then they need to put in place a strategy to break the Southern stranglehold, both on centres and on training.

It discriminates against the North because our travel and accom. costs are higher for the whole course.

Remember to build this into your business plans and loan applications ...

h-r

:hmm:

[Alex Whittingham]

OMH

Which bit didn't you like?

[Keith.Williams.]

There is no fundamental reason why there should be only one additional exam centre. Provided suggestions are made to be attractive enough, the CAA have no reason to refuse.

I suspect that they have three basic concerns:

a. To minimise venue rental costs.
b. To minimise additional staff costs.
c. To protect the security of the system.

The specification issued to the Bournemouth schools did not include any requirement that the venue be provided free of charge. Because I am particulary keen to see a centre established at Bournemouth I suggested that EPTA provide a room for free, and my boss agreed.

The CAA looked at my list of possible venues and discusssed availability with some of them. The main stumbling block was not the price, but the fact that none were available for September when the CAA wanted to conduct their trial. The only remaining venue was the EPTA classroom which was accepted by GTS, but rejected by BCFT.

If schools are sufficiently keen to have an exam centre in their area they need to consider the option of paying the additional staff costs. In the case of Bournemouth, with three schools on a single airfield, these costs are unliklely to be excessive.

All colleges and universities carry out examinations on a regular basis. In many cases the invigilators are not full time staff, but simply invigilate exams on a part time basis. It is entirely possible that these people will be available at very little cost to supervise the CAA exams.

While there appears to be a logical argument for any new venue to be in the north, this idea requires further examination. The majority of students undertaking full time courses come from areas far removed from their schools. They therefore take up lodgings in the proximity of their school. This obviously adds to the overall cost of their training, but as their course progresses they at least become accustomed to their surroundings. These students then face further cost when taking up additional temporary accommodation close to the exam centres.

But for many, the greatest single problem is not the cost, but the the stress caused by the need to move to temporary lodgings. At a time when they are attempting to focus all of their energies on preparing for the exams they are forced to move into unfamiliar surroundings. This problem can best be overcome by having an examination centre within easy daily travel distance of each of the schools. In the case of Bournemouth with three schools in one location the case for an exam centre is particularly strong.

Students undertaking distance learning have the advantage that most of their study is done at home. They are however required to relocate temporarilly in order to carry out the residental element of their course. If such students were able to use an examination centre close to their school, the need for additional travel costs and stress would be minimsed.

The existing centres provide a reasonable solution for some of the schools. Gatwick for the LGU, Silsoe for the Cranfield/Coventry area, and Glasgow for Glasgow. One additional centre at Bournemouth could serve the three schools in the area, while a further centre in or around Bristol could serve BGS and Kemble.

The question of the capacity requirements of any new centre also needs to be examined. September was a particularly busy month for ATPL exams with a little over 150 students taking part. Even allowing for a surge capacity of 200, there is no conceivable reason why any new centre should require a capacity greater than 40 or 50. The figure of 70 previously suggested in this thread is far too high and is probably unachievable.

[Send Clowns]

Scroggs

Apologies, I wanted to keep the post short and to the point, but I see I really should point out the exact comment I was refering to. I did not say no-one lost money to SFT's demise as Keith stated. Having lost around £2,500 myself that is hardly likely. He seems to have made that up to make me sound inconsistent, rather an unfair tactic on his part.

Keith

I understand there was at least one other possible venue that did fit the criteria your classrooms did not and was very cheap. I don't know why the decision was made in the end, but you cannot blame it on BCFT. Talk to the CAA who take vast amounts from our students but don't always help them out. If anything, ask your marketing people why BCFT is so wary of EPTA. I'm not going to get into a debate about that here.

The location of exam centres has never been a major issue with students I have known, either when I was a student or since. There was an exam centre down here, but it has not been used in my time, always a minor gripe but not the issue you seem to make out of it. Our courses are set to give a few days of revision time at the end. Most students go home for this anyway, so travel is incidental. Living costs for 2 or 3 nights are not a huge part of £40 or £50,000 of training.

P.S. Yes 24 is the maximum in the class, although more are allowed with extra staff present. However the CAA approves the facilities to be used, and checks that the classroom size is adequate, agreeing (not sure how formally) how many students can be accomodated. Our main classrooms can hold 24.

[helicopter-redeye]

"The existing centres provide a reasonable solution for some of the schools. Gatwick for the LGU, Silsoe for the Cranfield/Coventry area, and Glasgow for Glasgow. One additional centre at Bournemouth could serve the three schools in the area, while a further centre in or around Bristol could serve BGS and Kemble. "

I think you need to divorce the schools location from the students location with regard to modular people.

Many live a long way from the school, so this would not solve the problem.

In the above quote, there is still a massive amount of land and population between Coventry & Glasgow.

h-r

[Alex Whittingham]

The case for an extra exam centre because of an increase in the number of candidates is not convincing. The CAA stats for the number of ATPL(A) exams taken over the last year show no overall increase in volume. In fact, the October 04 sitting had fewer candidates than any sitting since June 03.

If there's a case to be made for a new centre it would have to be based on the idea of offering more choice to the CAA's customers or on an anticipated increase in turnover. Either way a northern centre makes most sense to me.

[LFS]

A Northern England exam centre has been discussed with the CAA fairly recently and their belief was that there is not sufficient demand for an additional centre at present.

[helicopter-redeye]

Does anybody know if FCL have analysed where the studying population is coming from?

There are a lot of people on the ATPL threads in PPrune with Northern addresses.

The choice of schools is a personal matter. But as a national body the CAA must have a duty to establish a reasonable distribution of centres around the country.

At the moment, it is skewed towards the SE (Garwick, Silsoe, Oxford).

It would be interesting to hear a view from FCL direct why they think there is no perceived demand for a centre in the North and how many current ATPL (A) and (H) students are distributed in the area 052 030N through to 055 000N (North side of Birmingham to Carlise) who may find it quicker and less costly to attend an exam centre in the Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds triangle.

[Keygrip]

Didn't there used to be an examination centre at Manchester?

(Say, "Yes" - 'cause I did some of mine there).

[LFS]

I believe there was and that due to insufficient demand it was closed and that is the precedent the CAA are using to claim no requirement for one now. Although I do find it hard to believe with the number of northern based wannabes that there woudn't be a demand for one now.

[yeoman]

I love it! As instructors years back we used to get p###ed with the oppositions instructors and let managements hurl rocks at each other. Glad to see the internet age has hit good old flight/ground instructing squabbles.

Guys I have worked with or done courses with that I would recommend: No idea where any of them are but last known in brackets. BTW, any of them care to get in touch, PM me.

Mike Alderton, Tech stuff (London Met)
Pete Knapp, Nav (London Met)
John Standen, serious drinking buddy, lodger, bodily function discussions and Met, (Oxford)
Alex Whittingham, Perf A, Bristol

Regards to all ex SFT and SECOAT staff and students. I hope it all worked out in the end. (The Inspector Morses can now put it together and work me out. My shrink failed.

[carb]

Something that seems missing from this thread is the fact that there's been a new exam venue in use for the past few months, LGU/London Met Uni, at their Tower Hill campus in central London, which was a solution to the outrage of LMU students regularly being sent on a trip to Silsoe or even Glasgow when the Gatwick venue was oversubscribed.

Don't see why the CAA wouldn't agree to provide exams at venues in the south-west and the north-west aswell if flight schools ask them hard enough?

[yeoman]

Because rationale, customer convenience and common sense come into it:E

[helicopter-redeye]

So how come the LMU does not come up as an option for exams ?



(and for that matter how come the info/ directions pack include Silsoe AND Shuttleworth when they are only a few miles apart)?

h-r

[TRon]

Was at BCFT in 2002, seems such a long time ago now!

Place is very different now so I hear. At the time they were still fairly new as a school but the instructors were all helpful, efficient and certainly got me through. Screwed a 'couple' of exams up but then that was because I was a lazy arse and not down to lack of tuition!

I hear nothing but good things about them now. Certainly worth a look with the others, then I guess the rest is down to you.

I hope Andy Wood is still teaching law, the guy is priceless.

Loving the inter school PPRuNe 'banter' though (my freeeeeends)!!

[pipergirl]

it's funny about the exam venues all the same...three far south and one far far north...
hardly seems fair to the northern brothers, and when i went for my exams during the summer, there was quite a lot of guys from northern england.

why can't the caa be more flexible on this issue?
if there is a high demand from a certain section of candidates from the north, surely they can offer a sitting up north for that particular month....or something like that?
I'm almost sure that there schools in the US that have exam sittings there...
If it's possible to do that, surley the same effort can be made for the north?

and why not a venue in belfast?....ah the impossible dream...

[Keith.Williams.]

The reason Bournemouth came very close to having an exam centre is because the three schools located there all argued (with the CAA) to get one. The reason the scheme failed has already been discussed in this thread.

If the CAA receive enough logical arguments for a centre in the midlands (or anywhere else for that matter) they will look at the matter and may well agree to it. But without the active support (agitation) from at least one school, the CAA are unlikely to be swayed.

Distance learning (by definition) involves studying at a distance. For a good many non-aviation types of distance learning courses this means distance both from the school and from the examination centre.

All ATPL distance learning students are required to travel to their schools for the consolidation phase of their training. If students carry out their consolidation immediately prior to their exams they can stay in the same area and avoid additional travel costs.

It is also worth noting that one of the schools that supported the establishment of an exam centre at Bournemouth provides only distance learning courses. That school clearly recognised the value of having an exam centre in the area where students carry out the consolidation element of their course.

[Fergal20]

So what are the chances of Bournemouth getting an exam centre in the near future?

[Keith.Williams.]

The CGI of BCFT tells me that he is still looking for an alternative venue.

But having already looked at a great many, I do not hold out much hope. The hotels will not commit to long term bookings because they want to remain free for the conference seasons. The Colleges will not commit to long term bookings because they have no permanently spare capacity. The sports clubs will not commit long term because they want to remain free for the football, cricket or whatever else they do seasons.

If however a suitable venure is found, EPTA will not object even if it is a BCFT classroom, provided all local students have equal access to it.

If however BCFT ever come around to agreeing to the EPTA classroom, the CAA would probably be quite happy to give it a go. It could probably happen in January, which is the next time our students go to the exams.

[Frank Furillo]

If however BCFT ever come around to agreeing to the EPTA classroom, the CAA would probably be quite happy to give it a go. It could probably happen in January, which is the next time our students go to the exams.

Sorry Keith, but i am one of Alex's (BGS) flock and I don't like the idea of examinations being taken in schools, it strikes me as a conflict of interest.
I know that oxford host exams and I am not impying anything here, I just think it could be open to abuse, like most things these days.
FF

[Keith.Williams.]

Hello Frank,

I can certainly understand your intuitive unease. I have always been slightly concerned about the situation at OATS. It is no coincidence that during the initial months of JAR exams, OATS had by far the best feedback. This was quite simply because with an exam centre in their school they were able to debrief students immediately after the exams. But with the passage of time this advantage has been eroded by the fact that feedback inevitably leaks between schools. I suspect that all schools now have pretty much the same feedback.

It should also be noted that OATS is not the only school in which exams are taken. I believe that the centre in Jerez is also within the school and exams have recently been taken in LGU. I also believe that the Glasgow exam centre is closely linked with the
school. In addition to this, the exam centre in Florida is provided jointly by three schools out there. And is West Michigan ever start another JAR course they will probably also have their own exam centre. It is almost the case that schools without an exam centre are becoming the minority.

We must also rember that if the EPTA classroom is used, the exam papers will not be available to EPTA. The CAA require that these be held in a secure place and handled only by the invigilators. I have never suggested that EPTA should provide the invigilators. There is a CAA flying test centre at bournemouth, so they will have no problems ensuring the security of the papers.

Because the three Bournemouth schools are located within little more than 100 yards of each other, none of these schools would gain any advantage over the others. All of the local students could quite easily visit their schools for debreif during the lunchtime, or indeed the schools could send instructors into EPTA to talk to their students between exams. EPTA has no objections to any of these options.

In assessing my intentions here it is also worth noting that I am quite happy for classrooms in any of the Bournemouth schools to be used. It is the very large size of the EPTA classrooms that makes them the prime candidate, rather than any preference on my part.

I personally would also be quite happy if an exam centre were also to be set up in other schools including BGS. But I have no interest in agitating for this, quite simply because it does not affect the welfare of my students.

The schools have a great many things over which to compete. The interests of students everywhere will be best served if we ensure that examination centres does not become one of them.

[Frank Furillo]

Thanks for that Keith
FF

[Keygrip]

Keith - I did my (old name) "technicals" at the Manchester exam center, as quoted above, but did my (old name) "navigation subjects" at the Bournemouth examination center.

I trained through PPSC (R.I.P.). I'm pretty sure that the examinations were held in the CAA ATC training center - could that not be resurrected?

[Keith.Williams.]

This was one of the first venues we looked at, but they said that they no longer have any vacant space.

[Martin1234]

It would really suit me, and many others I suppose, if there will be an exam center in Bournemouth anytime soon. On the other hand I do understand the concerns of Frank Furillo.

There's no chance that EPTA could have a well-defined area for attendees which is "clean" of anything that could remind of an advertisment. Also make sure that the staff of EPTA isn't available in that area more than necessary.

I don't know the full story here, but isn't it to the benefit of all three schools if some sort of collaboration is possible?

[Frank Furillo]

Sorry guys, but as I am from the north i feel that if the CAA were to use another centre I and many like me would prefer Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham.
I understand that as most of the groundschools are in the south it follows that the examination venues are there, i just feel a bit of the North/South Divide coming on, must be my scouse roots.
Just my two pence worth
FF

[Alex Whittingham]

This idea is masked as 'good for the students', and I'm sure it would save a few students a drive up the M3, but it's really being pursued by EPTA because it's a benefit to them, hence the reluctance of the other Bournemouth FTOs to play Keith's game. They're not stupid. The benefit lies in the kudos, being made to look like a serious school and appearing to have a hot line to the CAA. The existing centres are not at capacity and, if there is a case to be made for another exam centre then Bournemouth just isn't it, there are many more students from up north that aren't catered for at all and many schools with more students than EPTA.

OATS had the best feedback in the early days of JAR for a number of reasons, one of which was that nearly all the candidates were their students.

[Martin1234]

The Swedish CAA have contracted an adult educational association which provides FTO's with invigilators. This means that if an FTO got at least 6 students on one particulator test day an invigilator will come to that school at no additional cost. I guess this is something that the UK CAA wouldn't consider?

[Keith.Williams.]

ALEX I am afraid you are way off the mark again.

GTS is quite happy for the exam centre to be in EPTA. EPTA is quite happy for the exam centre to be anywhere within reasonable travel distance of Bournemouth Airport. That includes any of the other schools at Bournemouth. I even suggested Kingston Maurward Agricultural College at Dorchester because it is about midway between Bournemouth and Cheddar.

Of the three schools at Bournemouth, it is only BCFT that objects to the use of the EPTA classroom.

You probably are not aware of the negotiations that have taken place. The CAA passed a list of requirements to the three Bournemouth schools. Contrary to some of your previous posts they did not require that the venue be provided free of charge, nor did they stipulate a minimum of 70 seats. They actually stipulated between 50 and 70 with a distance of 3 feet between desks. Using these dimensions the EPTA classroom could hold only about 40. But the spacing at Gatwick is closer to 2 feet between desks. Using this distance 50 desks could probably be accommodated. When thius was suggested, they stated that they were happy to come and look at the proposed room.

The CAA were quite serious about conducting a trial during the September exams. They also stated that if the Bournemouth venue was of insufficient capacity to take the BGS students then they would also consider sites closer to Bristol.

There is no reason why more than one new venue could be established. Instead of trying to prevent a centre being created at Bournemouth your efforts could be used more productively in trying to establish a site at a location more suitable to your students. EPTA would have no objection whatsoever if this additional venue turned out to be at BGS.

As for your comments regarding Kudos.....Are you seriously suggesting that we all envy the school at Glasgow or believe that they have close links with the CAA? As Peggy Murphy would put it, AW c'mon Ted???

[Alex Whittingham]

Suit yourself. I think you'll find the CAA were just being polite and letting your proposal quietly wither through lack of support. In either case, repeatedly restating your position on PPRuNe isn't going to get the other schools in line behind you. If you think you've got a case you should be talking to them, not attacking them.

[High Wing Drifter]

It seems to me, that regardless of where the school is, generally, students prefer to head for an examination centre either near home or near relatives where they can crash for four days.

[rons22]

Did anyone attend distance learning course with U.S. schools? pfea and ASA are offering ATPL ground exams for JAA?

Are these school same as the UK schools?

[VC10 Rib22]

Alex and Keith,

Thank you, belatedly, for that ding-dong. Pprune at its very best - intellectual muskets drawn.......10 paces...... turn and fire.

I wish more would follow your lead.

:ok: