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SilsoeSid
21st Oct 2004, 15:47
Happy Trafalgar day to everyone.

I find it strange that today of all days, the British Gov't calls upon its troops to deploy into one of the most hostile places on the Earth, to defeat an enemy threatening the security of our country. :hmm:

Even more strange that the Gov't is sending a Scottish Regiment, (one due to be disbanded?), to do it at the beck and call of another old enemy, the Americans.

I truely wish all ranks of the Black Watch well and shall pray that they all come home safely for Christmas.


[edited by JB Mods on 21th October 2004 at 17:53 to remove offensive picture]

I would like to point out that the deleted pics were of an American nature.
SS

CBA_caption
21st Oct 2004, 15:51
I give this thread about 5mins before it disappears (last sentence excluded).

BlueDiamond
21st Oct 2004, 16:00
Did you think nobody would see that before you deleted it? That was offensive.

tony draper
21st Oct 2004, 16:51
Me Uncle Robert and me Uncle Walter both served in the Black Watch during our last unpleasentness with the chaps sausageside, neither had ever been to Scotland.
Send the Paras and the Ghurkas in as well, they'll sort that feckin place in two weeks.

Flypuppy
21st Oct 2004, 17:07
In 1738, (prior to Culloden), Lord President Forbes of Culloden had put up the proposal to the Government for the raising of Highland regiments to be officered by 'loyal Englishmen'. His aim was to channel the energies of possible Jacobite supporters into activities of working hard for the government, leaving them with little time for plotting. The scheme was vetoed by the Cabinet, but out of it came into being the Black Watch Regiment in 1739. Initially filled with Lowland Scots and some Highlanders of unquestionable Government loyalty, such as the Campbells and Munros, it was led by English officers to "watch" or police the Highlands secretly -- thus "Black Watch". It really had little to do with colour of their kilts.

Davaar
21st Oct 2004, 17:43
I do not have the Gaelic, but I understand the name "Black Watch" ["Am Freiceadan Du"], or "dark soldiers" in rough translation, was commonly applied to the regiment in contrast to the "redcoats" or "red soldiers" ["Seidaran Dearag"], who were as popular in Scotland as elsewhere. It was thought that the kilt would make them more acceptable.

As with many Scots in military service (as Gustavus Adolphus discovered when he made a joke about one Colonel being a Roman Catholic in the service of a protestant King, upon which the Colonel forthwith quit, taking his regiment with him), they were a fiery bunch. One English officer of engineers wrote home: "I cannot forbear to tell you .... that many of those private gentlemen-soldiers have gillys, or servants to attend them in quarters, and upon a march to carry their provisions, baggage, and firelocks".

There can be little doubt that Dr draper's kin went similarly attended. See "Sketches [of the Character, etc] of the Highlanders of Scotland", by Col David Stewart, Constable, Edinburgh, 1822. vol 1, page 240.

Flypuppy
21st Oct 2004, 18:12
It more or less began with General George Wade, an Irishman, who was appointed in 1724 as Commander-in-Chief in Scotland and he began the task of pacifying the Highlands, building the roads and bridges so his troops could move swiftly to nip any other would-be rebellion in the bud (following the 1715 uprising).

He raised six Independent Companies of Highlanders from clans reckoned to be loyal to the government, some 500 officers and men, and they only were allowed the privilege of carrying arms. There were three companies of Campbells, and one each of Grants, Munros and Frasers.

It was around about this time that the Black Watch got its name. There are several stories about that, but the truth is, I suppose, no one really knows. Some say it was because of the dark green and black tartan they wore and the watch they kept on the mountains and glens. Could be right, given that regular guardsmen stationed in the Highlands had just started wearing red. By comparison, the tartan must have appeared pretty dark. Another story says it was because of the 'black' Hanoverian hearts of the wearers, or perhaps because they were considered by rebellious clans to be 'blacklegs'.

Whatever the origin of the name, Highlanders of good quality and good family couldn't wait to join the Independent Highland Companies as they were called in 1725 - later they became the Highland Regiment of Foot - simply because of the status symbol of being allowed to carry arms. Each had its piper, dressed in the bright red Stewart or Royal tartan, because the Highlanders refused to march without the bagpipe.

tony draper
21st Oct 2004, 18:43
Being half Munro one could prolly phone them up and have them duff up folks who annoy one then.
:rolleyes:

ORAC
21st Oct 2004, 20:37
Well since Blair and Brown, and several others in the cabinet, are Scottish, I find this thread particulary droll.

Tell me, will the House have a vote where the English will be permitted to comment?

After all, the Scots have their own Parliament in which to speak if they have a point to make......

:hmm:

IFTB
21st Oct 2004, 20:58
As long as there's just one hundred of us......................:rolleyes:

Chaffers
21st Oct 2004, 21:39
..... There'll be a fight for the last cans of blutin in the spar? *ducks*

:p

B Fraser
22nd Oct 2004, 17:59
Wha dare meddle wi me......... :E

Taildragger
22nd Oct 2004, 22:28
Ahhhhhhhh. I can just see it. A few Jocks tanked up on Tennent's Super in downtown Falujah. (Spelling.??) on a Saturday night. A fearsome sight to behold and coming to a war zone near you soon. "I belang tae Basrah, dear old Basrah toon"

Big Tudor
23rd Oct 2004, 20:35
And why did the Jacobites stop at Derby?

Cos British Rail ran out of beer!!

Solid Rust Twotter
23rd Oct 2004, 21:36
The McAuslan books by George MacDonald Fraser are brilliant. Got the haggis hurlers down to a T.

Oops, sorry Ms S.......:E

El Grifo
24th Oct 2004, 11:34
Mibee this is why the Jocks are being sent :-

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D181A0B4-98C0-4B53-ACC9-55205CD4771E.htm

BlooMoo
26th Oct 2004, 09:44
IFTB, a stirring post. As many readers may not be familiar with the Declaration of Arbroath the full passage is :

"For, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any condition be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honour that we are fighting, bur for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

The Declaration was, I believe, an email sent by Mel Gibson to Pope John XXII on 6 April 1320 - to coincide with the start of the tax year...

BM:ok:

Big Tudor
26th Oct 2004, 10:04
Indeed it was BlooMoo, unfortunately the Vatican server had been infected by various viruses (viri?) which re-directed His Holiness to Arbroathslappers.com, a vile and degrading fish porn site with unholy images of fish gutting and the like. The Pope expressed his displeasure by declaring The Arbroath Smokie to be the de'ils work, thereby condemning the Declaration, and Arbroath, to an eternity of damnation and obscurity.
This condemnation continues even today with 45 RM Commando being based in the town to ensure such depravity is never again seen outside the city walls of the fair city of Arbroath.

Mel Gibson surrendered all claims to the Scottish throne in the early 1400's and instead moved to LA where he reinvented himself as a silver screen icon. Some claim he never lost his desire to be King of Scotland and quote such films as Mad Jocks 1 to 75 and Lethal Skean Dhu 1 to 48 as evidence. He is also held responsible for unleashing the Mullet on an unsuspecting world, a crime for which Interpol would still like to question him.

Stockpicker
26th Oct 2004, 10:24
Absolutely none taken Twotter , old son! My fave could either be the time when Private McAuslan wins the inter-regimental quiz by describing how the same player could kick three goals in a row without anyone else touching the ball (suitable topic for another thread?) or the time when they are doing the Eightsome Reel for the General (later to become a Two-Hundred and Fifty-Sixsome if I recall) preceded by the words:

"Now, gentlemen: there is Highland Dancing as performed when there are ladies present, and there is Highland Dancing. Today we will be doing the latter".

:ok: :ok: :ok:

Solid Rust Twotter
26th Oct 2004, 18:33
Aaah, Ms S. Yez a gem...:ok:

b.borg
27th Oct 2004, 11:57
I have read that the origin of the name came from the old scottish tradition of "blackmail" - not the current interpretation, but a system where an enterprising person (usually a Highlander) would offer a cattle owner, protectection (watch) of his herd under certain financial arrangements . The black reffered to the type of cattle i.e. black cattle and mail was the payment.
blackmail was an "insurance payment" for the watch - hence the "black watch" were black cattle guards.
They eventually became accepted and the larger land owners/lairds setup their own irregular units of the black watch.
After Culloden the Black Watch were formally integrated as a Highland regiment into the British (sic) army.

I believe there was also a red watch - perhaps for red cattle ? ;)

BlueEagle
27th Oct 2004, 12:09
My father had a rather old book that showed most of the tartans in use at the time, (circa1900), it also gave a short history of the clan/regiment etc. All it said of the Black Watch was that they were so called because of the sombre appearance of the tartan and the nature of their duties. Just another possibility.

ORAC
27th Oct 2004, 13:25
blackmail - 1552, second element is M.E. male "rent, tribute," from O.E. mal "lawsuit, terms, bargaining, agreement," from O.N. mal "speech, agreement;" related to O.E. mel "meeting, council," ml "speech," Goth. mal "meeting place."

From the practice of freebooting clan chieftains who ran protection rackets against Scottish farmers. Black from the evil of the practice. Expanded c.1826 to any type of extortion money. Verb is 1880.

Black Watch: In the wake of the 1715 Scottish rebellion six independent companies of trustworthy Highlanders were raised from loyal clans. (Three companies of Campbells, and one each of Grants, Munros and Frasers). They became known as "The Black Watch" for the watch they kept on the Highlands and from their dark government tartan, as opposed to the english units who just started wearing red. In the 1860s Queen Victoria authorised the addition of the name "The Black Watch" to the official title of the 42nd Royal Highlanders.

( The origin of the tartan is still argued but when tartan was proscribed it became the government tartan that all may wear.)

Lon More
29th Oct 2004, 19:14
On ITN News a few minutes ago, the first one already killed.

Unclear whether it was a road accident or an ambush