Part 61/141 Training

[minibus3]

Hi all,

I am currently studying Aeronautical Engineering in the U.K. but wish to become a professional airline pilot. As a result I have an FAA PPL which I completed under part 61.

I am a little confussed as to why there are different courses under the two different parts; for example there was an ATP course under part 141, but not under part 61. This is all information I have received from the flying school website I am/was flying at in the U.S.

Can anyone advise me as to whether I can swap between parts, i.e. complete my IR under part 61(as planned), and then switch to part 141 to take my CPL and ATP. Or is it possible to do the whole lot under part 61?

I would appreciate any information.

Regards,

Chris

[The Greaser]

If you have the time and money available to undertake the instrument rating and commercial in one go then i would strongly aadvise a part 141 school. This will combine structured flight and ground training and allows you to get the commercial in less hours than doing a straight part 61 course (190 hours against 250 hours i think). It is a little like the difference between integrated and modular in the UK but doesnt work in nearly the same way. As for the FAA ATP, well that's irrelevant. There is only a minimal amount of training required and can only be completed after 1500 flying hours are achieved. Good luck!

[cfimei]

One other point to bear in mind as well is that if you decide, at some point in your training, to switch from 61 to 141 then you loose up to 50% of your logged time. So if you start your training under 61 then you should finish it under those regs.

[Long Beach CFII]

I'll clarify CFIMEI's point. Its not incorrect but maybe misleading. There is nothing stopping a Part 61 trained Private Pilot from commencing Part 141 Instrument Commercial training. You wouldn't loose any of your hours, and as Greaser mentioned, it could be to your advantage as you can finish up sooner. However, if you were to start training for your Instrument & Commercial under FAR Part 141 you can at any time switch to FAR Part 61 and not 'loose 50% of your logged time'. The trouble comes, in when doing so, you would then need 50 hours cross country Pilot In Command (PIC) - FAR Part 61.65 - to meet the Instrument Rating requirements and also FAR Part 61 Commercial requirements.

If perhaps you didn't get along with the Part 141 school, you could transfer to another school, who could then only credit your previous training up to 50% - at the discretion of the Chief Instructor. In this case, it would be wise to go Part 61 route. It would also be possible to do single engine Instrument/Commercial under part 141, while doing part 61 multi add-on ratings concurrently.

Part 141 training is excellent for ab initio Airline / Career training, it is intended to be more structured, and involve FAA approved flight school, facilities, equipment and airplanes. A part 141 school will also have a Chief Instructor, and maybe an Assistant Chief Instructor, occasionally, depending on the size of the school, it may have a Chief Ground Instructor, and Chief Flight Instructor, along with Assistant Chiefs, and Check Instructors, all of which will have taken a practical test with the FAA, and be very familiar with every element on the syllabus. The syllabus will involve a number of Stage Checks taken throughout the duration of the course, and an 'End of Course' check prior to the school recommending the candidate for a checkride. This EoC is completed with a Chief or Asst. Chief instructor. In this way, the School is recommending you for the Certificate or Rating, as opposed to an individual Instructor. This training is not suited for everyone, nor is it required by many 'foreign' pilots who may have substantially more experience or knowledge than a recently minted Private Pilot. The Part 141 school should be a high standard, sucessful school, however, will cost a lot more money as the overhead is considerably more than for a Part 61 school / instructor.

Part 61 training is good when you need to accomplish a number of ratings in a short period of time, or when the pilot already meets most of the Part 61 requirements. An instructor can easily tailor the training to meet specific needs. For example, a friend of mine needs 100 hours next year and has decided to come over and get an FAA Private Multi add-on, Instrument Rating, and Commercial, within 100 hours in a Multi-Engine airplane, while building about 80 hours of cross-country time. When he goes back, he'll have FAA Multi Commercial Instrument, about 1000 hours total time, 100 hours multi, 80 hours cross country, and a JAA (f)ATPL. This would not be possible under Part 141 in this timeframe and would cost considerably more money.

[minibus3]

Thanks guys for all your knowledge, much appreciated.

As i am at uni in the U.K., i'm planning to complete my licences in parts; i.e. do my IR next year and then my FAA CPL in two parts over two years, then add on an ME rating to that. And then probably an instructors rating in order to build up my hours towards taking my ATP.

One question; under which part would the ATP under assuming I have the 1500 hours? At the end of the day, basically I want a licence that I can use to fly professionally.

Thanks again.

Chris

[Tinstaafl]

An FAA ATP is an FAA ATP. It matter not one jot how you got to the 1500 hrs - and the sub-accruals - when you come to sitting the flight test.

The requirements for the issue of an FAA ATP do not distinguish between methods to attain the minimum requirements.

The FAA Commercial, however, allows for a credit in the total number of hours required before an FAA Commercial certificate can be issued. The concept is that you can reach a commercial level of skill two ways:

1. Have specifically designed & FAA approved training course where every hour of training, theory & flight, is intended to prepare you to meet the standard, or

2. Do your training any which way - within limits - as long as your skills are up to speed when you do the test.

#1 is the Part 141 system, #2 is via Part 61.

#1 is supposed to be more efficient towards meeting the specific standards for a Commercial while #2 recognises that other experience also contributes towards the skill required, albeit perhaps not as efficiently.

'Not efficiently' isn't necessarily correct however unless every hour is prescribed then it's more problematic to ensure a desirable level of competence - hence more hours required.

Australia has a very similar system WRT to it's 'Commercially trained person' vs 'Non-commercially trained person'. Commercially trained needs a min. of 150 hrs of training, whilst non-commercially trained must have at least 200 hrs of experience.

The UK's equivalent was CAP509 vs (whatever the 'other way' was). That translated under JAR-la-la land to Integrated vs Non-integrated (or is that 'Modular'?). All the same philosphy though.