Ryanair pilots form new union - Join !!(Merged) [Archive]

Farrell

19th Oct 2004, 20:09

Media & Press • Tuesday, October 19, 2004
NEWS from BALPA and IALPA
British Airline Pilots’ Association: Irish Airline Pilots Association

Monday 18 October 2004

For interviews or further information contact Keith Bill or David Lloyd on +44 (0)20 7924 7555 mobile 07788 528 527 (KB)

RYANAIR PILOTS UNITE TO FORM NEW ASSOCIATION - REPA

Pilot associations from across Europe are to form a professional body for all Ryanair pilots. The Ryanair European Pilots’ Association (REPA) will give pilots a united voice and representation in their dealings with Ryanair and in particular with its chief executive Michael O’Leary.

REPA was launched today in London and Dublin by the two largest pilot organisations with members flying with the company, the British Airline Pilots’ Association (BALPA) and the Irish Airline Pilots’ Association (IALPA). They have the total support of the European Cockpit Association (ECA), the umbrella organisation of pilot unions in Europe as well as the International Federation of Airline Pilot Associations (IFALPA).

REPA is Europe’s first single company pan-european organisation, and could set an example of how unions can organise in Europe in the future.

Said Captain Mervyn Granshaw, Chairman of BALPA: ‘We recently raised the issue of cross-border unions dealing with cross-border companies at the Trades Union Congress, as today’s markets require more than the traditional response of sovereign trade unions. We are very excited by the development of REPA. We look forward to the challenges and hope our experience will enable the model to be used elsewhere. This could be the blueprint for the future.

‘REPA will help at a number of levels. For the individual pilot it will be a place to bring issues and concerns and get feedback. For the Ryanair pilot community it will be a place to share experiences and develop views on how the company can be a more successful and rewarding place to work. ‘

Said IALPA President Evan Cullen:’ We want to provide a voice and support for Ryanair pilots across all European bases. Members will decide what points they want raised with management, with the regulators, and with politicians. Henceforth Ryanair pilots will be able to speak with one voice.

‘The support of the European Cockpit Association has assisted us to get REPA ready for take-off. The whole concept has been encouraged by the International Federation of Airline Pilot Associations too because they recognise the challenges posed by cross border airlines.’

All existing and new Ryanair pilots who are members of BALPA, IALPA or other national association will automatically be members of REPA. Pilots who are not members of an association will be granted six months free membership of REPA.

‘We shall have to see what happens in the future, and what REPA members decide about the long term,’ said Jim McAuslan, General Secretary of BALPA.

‘At the six month point the parent organisations will discuss with the members of REPA how they would like to see REPA developed and funded. We may find REPA developing in wholly unexpected and new ways in the future.’

‘We hope the relationship between REPA and the company will be a positive one. We hope that Ryanair management will recognise the value to the business of having a means to provide an outlet for the view of the employees. This is the approach adopted in South-West Airlines in the USA, the world’s most successful airline, from whose model the Ryanair approach is allegedly derived.’

REPA will have its own staff as well as additional support from BALPA and IALPA. Costs, including those of the REPA website which went live today - www.repaweb.org - will be met by IALPA, BALPA and the ECA.

At the outset Ryanair pilots from Ireland, the UK, Italy, Spain, Belgium, France Germany and Scandinavia will be members of REPA. Others will join as Ryanair itself expands.

REPA questions and answers

End

chikenscanfly

19th Oct 2004, 20:18

At last

Our own union - something with the power of outside organisations such as BALPA, and with the interests of our own company at the fore-front of it's running...guys, what are we now waiting for?!?!

Flughaven

20th Oct 2004, 07:55

Sounds good this new website and Union. The only concern I have is ...... is it safe? Has anyone signed on yet and if so do you have any worries at all if FR have any input into it or if they receive any details of the member's and the info.

Call me paronoid but I aint putting my name down till I know its safe.:confused:

chikenscanfly

20th Oct 2004, 12:09

the website screens all applicants, using your staff number and actual name.
Only pilots are granted access to the site.
Furthermore, if anyone is suspected of being a leak, they are promptly removed from the site.

atleast, that's the way I understand it is.

captaink

20th Oct 2004, 14:11

Ok, I'll definetely sign up. See you all there.

Aloue

20th Oct 2004, 21:56

I just managed to get myself registered for REPA and I appreciated the security provisions. (BTW, at least one person I know has had a query by telephone, so security does seem to be functioning).

I'm certainly not going to "leak" the numbers, but for something only two days old the membership seems to be going forward rather well. Whether or not sparks will fly, or what we will hear about events in different bases, is another matter.

Frank Furillo

21st Oct 2004, 11:06

I hope it all works out for you guys, good luck.
ff

the grim repa

21st Oct 2004, 18:09

come on boys and girls at ryanair get yourself registered at www.repaweb.org. good to see so many on the site already.lets put all that talk to use now.

atse

22nd Oct 2004, 19:53

Is this not just wonderful news ... hope on the horizon, or at least a chance that hope is on the horizon. They have given us an opportunity to grasp, or to ignore.

We have an opportunity to screw it up by not participating and helping each other. If we cannot participate in an anonymous forum we deserve all that comes to us.

chikenscanfly

23rd Oct 2004, 09:43

For all those reading and not posting...

To think yourself not involved by simply staying quiet and not acting is naieve

Everyone is involved in this decision

This is a decision that is going to change your carreer whether you stay with RYR or move to another company, either by forces beyond your control or your own will

Go to the website. See whats being posted there. Give yourself a better understanding of what exactly is going on, and who youre really working for

Because it isnt all going to blow over you if you keep your head down...its going to shovel us all up

the grim repa

23rd Oct 2004, 14:14

just been on repaweb.approximately 100 members and growing daily.come on gang.not a lot out of hundreds of pilots but getting
there.get signed up!
thanks aloue!

Aloue

23rd Oct 2004, 14:39

Grim Repa, like yourself I am very pleased to see the arrival of www.repaweb.org (http://www.repaweb.org). I too am active on that site.

However, given the ability of a certain airline to twist numbers and statistics may I encourage all involved not to provide any detailed information about membership here.

Thanks Grim for your understanding. We WILL make this work by pulling together.

the grim repa

23rd Oct 2004, 17:30

aloue,why should i not quote the figures.we are not afraid of the truth.are we going to go creeping around corners watching over our shoulders all the time.we are men and it is about time we started to act like men.i have had my ear bent on a daily basis about need for action and now we are supposed to be contnet with about 15% of a sign up to repa.to hell with htat buddy,no disrespect intended to you,but it is about time people started to sh*t or get off the pot here.

the grim repa

23rd Oct 2004, 18:17

point taken aloue.but i am a bit puzzled how a pilot body,who a month ago was willing to join any union and even talk about striking.now are "afraid" to subscribe to their own website.i have seen it before and i hope it was the last spineless show within ryanair that i am witness to.people have to get off their ass once and for all.

Aloue

23rd Oct 2004, 19:36

I think, Grim, that they are being (very) careful. I don't think it is entirely fair to equate this with having lost the desire for action and change.

the grim repa

23rd Oct 2004, 19:52

on the other hand they may as always expect somebody else to do the dirty work for them,as has happened in the past and then they leave them hang out to dry.i remain unconvinced that this is not the case.
let's see if i am proven wrong.is it going to be more whispers in the corner of the dublin crew room.

chikenscanfly

23rd Oct 2004, 21:35

I must join Aloue and the Grim One in urging all those to please sign up to the site...

Without sounding like some crazed advertiser... :}

WHAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN IS EVERYONES RESPONSIBILITY

You could choose to avoid the issue and think youll be spared any detriment...
or put trust in a company that has historically abused such motions of good will...
or believe you will get extra credit for being someones 'teacher's pet'...

you would be gravely mistaken too

and, ofcourse, you could think you wouldnt have to vote, that everyone else would vote for you anyway

and that is being plain naieve

think about it...in a company full of people worried about their own backs isnt everyone else thinking that too?

Voting with your feet is fine, just ask yourself if you are personally ready to put yourself through all that stress and possible financial hardship, especially at this time of year, and when everyone else is, again, thinking and doing the same

There is no easy way around this...This is a tough time for everybody and there is only one reason why it has come to this...

Now there is a good solution to hold against this and win a bit of our dignity back

Lets show our solidarity, our conviction, and our pride

You have nothing to lose by signing up to the site ...

you can drop you membership after the first free trial period if you really like
Anomynousity is assured
The level of contact with those that can help us non-stop and beneficial

think about it

BEagle

24th Oct 2004, 07:51

"Are we the 'People's Front', the 'Popular Front' or the 'Peoples' Popular Front', Reg?"

With aplolgies to Life of Brian.....

FlapsOne

24th Oct 2004, 08:17

batty

It would take about 1 minute to do the research to answer your own question.

grim repa

Never give out union membership numbers (in any organisation). It always pays to keep the management guessing - or at least working hard for their info.

GGV

24th Oct 2004, 08:47

GrimR - as someone who is Dublin based and has just received a letter from IALPA about various important issues, I think you have got it absolutely wrong. In the letter we were congratulated on having kept a united front and not leaking information over the summer. (I think we may all be as surprised at this as IALPA was!). If the letter is to be believed management do not really have a good grasp of what is going on in some areas and their little "individual chats" are no longer yielding information.

We need self-discipline. You have provided information above which management can and will abuse, and in whatever way they can.

Please, please ... let nobody give out specific information, especially from the new REPA site. Comments and generalities are fine, specifics, percentages and numbers are not fine.

delwy

24th Oct 2004, 13:35

Batty, answers to all the issues you raised above have been given by BALPA and IALPA. Some are even given on a link on the public page of REPA at www.repaweb.org . Minimal effort would provide you with all the answers needed and help you avoid speculating in directions that are just plain wrong.

Before posting something which is so misleading - just see the post which immediately follows yours for where it is could lead - why don't you check out the facts for yourself:

* You remain a member of your current association.

* If you are a member of BALPA, IALPA, etc. you get free membership of REPA.

* REPA is not a splitting up, but a coming together, an umbrella group. All Ryanair pilots, whatever their base, status (trainees, contractor), etc. get access to a common, secure, forum.

* As is made clear on the site, ECA is also funding the effort with IALPA and BALPA and the implication seems to be that it is ECA funding that is providing 6 months free membership to those who are not members of an association at present.

The story on the site seems to be that what REPA is to become will remain in the hands of those who join. You can speculate about that, but the correct place to do your speculation is on the REPA site (if you are a Ryanair pilot).

So is REPA really an ill-considered idea? I think it is a blindingly obvious first step to take. Congratulations to all concerned because we now have some hope.

Shaman

24th Oct 2004, 15:00

<<
Who is this new union, why didnt BALPA contact us about it to start with...>>

Probably because the latest 'Log' has the details!

chikenscanfly

24th Oct 2004, 22:10

delwy

sorry to have to just skip over your fire here, but the link is actually www.repaweb.org (http://www.repaweb.org)

dont worry, its easy to confuse those two facets of the organisation

on all other points, spot on...
This isnt about further division / complication / elaboration

this is giving us what we wanted and were worried about...
a Union for US and taillored to OUR needs with the expertise and support of the pilot bodies that have been helping us so far

and if it helps any without letting any cats out of the bag, the discussions there are proving very fruitful

sceptics, please, visit the site and see for yourself....
still not sure, visit www.balpa.org (http://www.balpa.org) and read the press releases there if you like

delwy

24th Oct 2004, 23:14

Thanks Chickens. I've edited my post and will be eternally in your debt. Should you ever have any difficulty in crossing the road, I can offer you some reasons....

Rednex

25th Oct 2004, 16:32

Hi guys ,
Could somebody please tell me what or who REPA is?

I thought the very problem that ,we employees, had with Ryanair was the lack of discussion and consultation.

I am a pilot with Ryanair and am frustrated with the fact that such an organisation has surfaced, purports to represent me,but has never consulted with me . Sounds familiar!

Such an organisation will have a very definite affect on all our careers .Please: Who are you and please consult with us first.

chikenscanfly

26th Oct 2004, 00:41

Rednex

I must apologise, through all our talk we have indeed ommitted the true nature of REPA

REPA is NOT a recognised nor repressentative pilot's organisation within Ryanair...

it is rather the opportunity for much greater organisation and communication between BALPA, IALPA, and the ECA (European Cockpit Association) and the pilot body to exist, as well as providing the chance for us pilots to have PRIVATE dialogue amongst us about this issue

Trully the site also has much more to offer besides just learning exactly what we are up against. But I must urge you to sign up to the site and see for yourself

and remember, if your not happy after the first 6 months, sign off and itll still be for free

and delwy, dont worry about it...but I will take you up on that offer!

Gorgophone

26th Oct 2004, 06:56

A new union - great! But REPA and BALPA together – I hope not! Remember Dan Air?

teapea

26th Oct 2004, 11:52

yer, buDanair wuz parta BALPA, this REPA fing innt, I fink itsupose terbe onitzone. giviago seewerit gahs!

Aniwunremeba Dan Dare?

chikenscanfly

27th Oct 2004, 22:47

Can we maybe get a revision of the Dan Air events?

I find that what Ryanair has done, and threatens to do, might differentiate this situation from what happened at Dan Air...

and therefore also effect the possible outcomes...

but I may be wrong

srjumbo

28th Oct 2004, 13:44

Good grief, I can't believe people still won't join BALPA because of Dan Air. That's ten plus years ago. Granted I wasn't in aviation then but things have changed a lot since and BALPA is no longer the British Airways Air Pilots Association. There are now more independent airlines' members than BA.
Do yourselves a favour and join!

Mr. Cranky

28th Oct 2004, 16:14

srjumbo:

Although I am a UK based BALPA member, I see in every day life that BALPA does not seem to do much for pilots based outside the UK.

A small example: currently all Orly based crew are in a grey zone. ORY is no longer a "temporary base" but they are now a "secondary base" which means that EZY does not have to pay them a temporary base allowance, but it gives ORY crew no security whatsoever. Besides the obvious cost factor, another reason in cutting the temporary base allowance was (according rumours) some (jealous?) complaints from UK based pilots that ORY based crew were earning more money because of the temporary base allowance.

It sort of puts us into a simular Ryanair (divide and conquer) situation with a company basing people left and right all over Europe, without caring too much about the consequenses.

BALPA knows about these issues, but simply does not seem to care or is incapable of coming to their defense. They just seem to follow management´s way of thinking and accept the newly invented "secondary base" definition.

I don´t want to hijack this thread to discuss EZY issues, but I just want to use the above example to warn Ryanair pilot not to get their hopes up too much about REPA/BALPA coming to their rescue.

Nevertheless I would still recommend all Ryanair pilots to join REPA because it certainly beats the alternative which is MOL. :ugh:

fiftyfour

28th Oct 2004, 17:30

For chickenscanfly and others who wonder about the history of DanAir and Balpa.

DanAir was about to go into voluntary liquidation in the aftermath of debts owed to it by the failed tour group Intasun and the airline Air Europe (DanAir serviced AE aircraft and flew 30% of Intasun passengers) and the recession/fuel crisis of the first Gulf War. British Airways wanted to prevent another scheduled competitor at LGW and was able to absorb about 10 DAN 737 300/400 into their LGW scheduled services, but didn't want the 30 other aircraft that DAN operated.

DanAir (now BA Euro Ops LGW under BA management ie under Mike Street, now famous for presiding over the recent BA summer troubles at LHR) decided to keep only existing DA 737 -3/400 pilots, despite a long standing signed agreement on how to carry out any redundancies that may be required at DAN. The long standing agreement was for first in/lastout as per seniority order.

BA management made a mess off their industrial relations, it was their fault. Unfortunately Balpa decided that a softly/softly approach to management was required, despite the obvious remedy which was immediate legal action in the industrial courts for breach of redundancy contract under the rules for the takeover of the workforce of other companies.

Eventually, after about a year Balpa did take legal action (but only due to severe pressure from members), but by then it was too late - the wrong pilots were out of a job. The case was settled out of court on the steps of the court on the day of the hearing and all redundant pilots in the union received the maximum penalty that a court could have awarded. They didn't keep their jobs - it was three years after the event by then.

The most senior DAN pilot (with 30 years service) ended up being made redundant, and the most junior pilot ( who had been with DAN for less than 1 year) went into BA and is still there now as a mainline BA captain.

Nobody who is ex DAN trusts BA management to deal with individuals fairly (neither do BA crews either !), and many with long memories wonder if Balpa is capable of handling really big issues that strike at the heart of what should be a fair and just society.

I like to think that things will be better next time, because more than half of Balpa members are from independent airlines now.

The RyanAir issues are not really the same as the DAN problem. Balpa is not perfect, but it is great to have strenth in numbers when dealing with the likes of MOL. Having a relationship with Irish Unoins etc makes it even better. If you get 90% membership, MOL will have to at least listen.

Blackball

28th Oct 2004, 18:18

srjumbo, I can understand your need to move things on. Yes the Dan Air debacle was 12 years ago now. It would indeed be nice if it could finally be laid to rest. Unfortunately BALPA will not let sleeping dogs lie. Only 18 months ago they imposed a pay deal on those ex Dans who were stil in EOG now SHAG whereby their pay point was reduced from a max of pay point 22 to a new pay point of 16 (where SHAG is capped). Certainly we all got a pay rise but what did and does hurt is the fact that for over ten years we had been paying into a pension fund at pay oint 22 only to finally be awarded a pension based on pay point 16 + 5%. No consultation just take it and shut up was their attitude. Sure BALPA is getting bigger but not neccessarily better they will and do always hit the minority of its members for as they would put it "for the greater good of the majority". They are not interested in moral issues only in protecting their income from your subscriptions. The Majority must always be satisfied since they will hide behind the fact that their union is a democratic union.

By all means join them and good luck to you but remember the History or it will turn and bite you later on.:=

Nick666

28th Oct 2004, 19:11

Hello fifty four

Your recount of the BA/Dan Air/BALPA episode is reasonably accurate as far of 10% of the story goes. What most people do not know is how BALPA actively undermined their own members from effectively pursuing BA in the courts, once BALPA had bailed out of supporting their members. Their original support was none other than a smoke-screen to throw everyone off the scent.

Don't take my word for it, go ask Dellie G-F, who was one of the staunchest supporters of the Dan Air pilots group (not union). She had the disclosure documents. Those documents would make your 'eyes water'. She could make a fortune if she published her memoirs.

You think you know all about 'dirty tricks'; I tell you, you know nothing!

flap15

1st Nov 2004, 08:13

Just a few points to consider about the union and its effectivness.

1.It will only be as good as the council you elect and the amount of their free time they can donate to the issue. REPA/BALPA/IALPA will provide support advice and expertise but the driving force must come from the members themselves. A challenge considering your oponent.

2.It will go nowhere if the members do not support their council and stand up and be counted when it comes to the crunch. If you do not play your part do not blame the Union.

3.When it come to expectations remember that your council will be doing their day to day job with the associated fatigue that it induces as well as Union duties. This will take a toll on their life and therefore you must realise that there will be a limit to what will be achieved and the rate at which it occurs. If you think you can do better stand for election yourself.

4.None of the above are reasons not to join.

I spent many years in GA and saw no reason to join BALPA howevere a couple of seasons with EZY changed my opinon about Unions. BALPA is not perfect by a long way,yet there is no other choice.

Good luck and keep in mind the long term goals of a quality of life in a company that will see you to retirement

Gorgophone

2nd Nov 2004, 07:06

Hi flap15

Good words! I agree, and I wish REPA all the very best. Current problems still exist with BALPA and I would advise REPA to deal directly with the TUC who know how to behave AS A UNION rather than getting to cosy with BALPA whose advice can be strangely erroneous and unaccountable. These words are about current events, not 10-year old ones. Wait til I publish my memoirs!

the grim repa

2nd Nov 2004, 18:45

delighted to announce now of a good and growing response on the www.repaweb.org website.keep up the good work!really heartening contributions in forums also.SPREAD THE WORD AND HAVE YOUR SAY.

the grim repa

6th Nov 2004, 20:00

for a good look at ryanairs latest dirty tricks campaign against their pilots.log on to www.repaweb.org ,the home of the pilots voice in ryanair.for those of you who cannot join,suffice to say that if this latest gig comes your way,then you are in a bad way.
for those of you who can,see what a depraved organisation we really work for.a little taster is that new contracts will be offered on ryanairs terms and conditions and if you don't sign it,then foxtrot oscar as the big bully boy from the bog likes to say.
the numbers grow daily on the site and look real good now.

BEagle

7th Nov 2004, 08:46

More antics from O'Leary:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-1347263,00.html

Ryanair pilots seething over contract ultimatum
Ciaran Hancock

RYANAIR has told its Dublin-based pilots that if they do not sign new contracts tying them to the company for five years, they will not be given training on the airline’s new fleet and could lose their jobs.

Pilots were also informed that they will be required to pay the full €15,000 cost of the training if they leave the airline before the five years has expired. Ryanair is planning to replace 10 Boeing 737-200s, currently based in Ireland, with the larger and more fuel-efficient 737-800 by the end of 2005. More than 90 pilots in Dublin require retraining.

These conditions, which were outlined at two meetings on Thursday, are unusual in the airline industry and have raised the hackles of pilots, who are set to resist the plans.

It is understood the pilots believe this is part of a wider plan by the company to reduce their benefits and conditions of employment. One said: “My colleagues are fed up with the erosion in our terms and conditions. This is more of the same and we see no end to it.”

Pilots say Ryanair has already nibbled at their benefits, changing the way in which pensions are paid, introducing charges for uniforms and axing free tea and coffee for staff. They now believe the company could target other perks, including staff travel privileges and life assurance.

It is not clear what action the pilots might take, but industrial action has been ruled out.

Earlier this year about 10 pilots based in Shannon signed bonds that tied them to the airline for three years after their retraining. The pilots agreed to pay €7,500 to the company if they leave within that time.

Ryanair confirmed the conditions attached to the training programme but declined to comment on the detail of the meetings held with pilots. The company reiterated that its pilots were “among the best paid in Europe”.

Ryanair’s pilots have already drawn the ire of Michael O’Leary, the airline’s chief executive, by forming the Ryanair European Pilots’ Association. This is aimed at giving Ryanair pilots a united voice in dealing with the company.

RAT 5

7th Nov 2004, 13:23

Does anyone know, for sure i.e. 100% & not bar-room lawyer speculation, what any pilot's legal status would be if they do not agree to these conditions? Would they have deemed to have fired themselves, would they come under redundancy compensation, or even under unfairdismissal consideration?
Any company could impose unacceptable conditions on required retraining for personnel who's equipment is sold, in any industry. Surely the workers would have some balancing rights in this instance, especially if new workers were hired to replace them? That would demonstrate that the job/position was still a necessity to the companies business. With no such protection it would leave companies open to the tactic of changing equipment, demanding bonding or payment with other attached conditions, lowering the T's & C's for the imposed 'new'conract on the new equipment, or hiring new entrants, who would now be less senior/experienced, on lower terms. A great cost saving device.
Is it really as simple, in this day & age of EU legislation, as a fait accompli?

maxalt

7th Nov 2004, 13:34

I agree.
Sounds like more provocation, but this would make a great test case. Very winnable I would have thought!

the grim repa

7th Nov 2004, 14:31

maybe but the TEST PILOT will in all likely hood not work for a long time if ever again.not many companies looking for a union agitator on their team.lets be realistic!

under_exposed

8th Nov 2004, 11:38

Its not unusual in other industries for employees to have to commit for a specified length of time or be penalised when training is offered.
If the position of a 737 200 crew is going to become redundant the Ryanair could legally just pay them off.

FlyingIrishman

8th Nov 2004, 15:59

To me the issue of bonding the DUB pilots is an attempt on Mick's behalf to get back at them for basically giving him the "foxtrot oscar" attitude at the constant erosion of their terms and conditions. This becomes evident when looking at the way that bonding has been handled on the -200 conversions that have happened to date: as stated in the newspaper article, a 3 year bond of €7,500, so why are the DUB pilots bonded over nearly double this period and the training costs double mysteriously as well.

It has also been announced that there may be cutbacks in Dublin in order to prevent additional capacity (to aid the battle with Aer Rianta). If this is the case, why have -800 pilots from other bases been given the chance to return to DUB when clearly there are not even enough jobs for all the people based there currently, assuming the cutbacks go ahead.

This debate certainly raises more questions than answers and once again shows the lack of respect openly displayed by the company towards its pilots.

the grim repa

8th Nov 2004, 16:07

all this bs about bonding and training costs.it just goes to show that bonds and training cost are not linked whatsoever and are just a way at FORCING the employees loyalty.all this crud in interview techniques about team player,good communicator,loyal e.t.c is a load of horse manure when instead of having a company that rewards an employees loyalty and aspires to have everyone work together.the so called managers have to monetarily force their employees to stay in the company as they are being rogered.

Aloue

12th Nov 2004, 20:25

Word from Dublin is that they are going after the senior pilots in the belief that they can be picked off by offering them something extra. Any of you REPA people able to shed any light on this? There was some kind of a meeting today (or maybe yesterday) about this, so what's they story?

the grim repa

12th Nov 2004, 22:46

its all on www.repaweb.org

Aloue

13th Nov 2004, 23:25

Well Grim, I think what I meant was I cannot quite do that. Surely there must be some news that can be shared with ordinary mortals?

delwy

15th Nov 2004, 10:30

aloue... sorry... but there seem to be no "rules" established over at REPA for what can leak out. All I can say is that it is clear that significant events are taking place and the display of unity is very encouraging (if not surprising and long overdue). I can see now why Ryanair have done their best to sabotage the site as for the first time we can get very prompt information out to everybody.

I'm not sure why you can't join, but if it is because you do not qualify, you can always join Ryanair!! They certainly could do with some willing volunteers.

securitymearse

15th Nov 2004, 16:34

Delwy you're right about getting prompt information out to everyone - here’s the latest !

Posted by REPAI 12th November 2004 - 11.29am

IALPA Letter to Ryanair

Ryanair Meeting for Senior Pilots

N.B. This Information is Confidential to REPA Members

IALPA-Update 3

Dublin, Novembers 12th, 10:30 a.m. An acknowledgment of the receipt of IALPA's letter was received from Ryanair earlier this week. IALPA subsequently received a comprehensive reply from Mr. O'Leary just after 09:00 this morning.

IALPA and its parent organisation IMPACT will be taking appropriate advice from their advisors regarding the content of this letter.

Ryanair have also invited a number of senior pilots to a meeting on the afternoon of Friday November 12th, at which it is understood a new contract may be on offer.

Each of these developments had been anticipated and preliminary consideration of possible courses of action has already taken place.

We regret that providing detailed news about these developments will be constrained over the coming days for various reasons, but we will do our best to keep you up to to speed with developments.

As Ryanair itself has made no public announcements about the IALPA initiative, we have a strong preference that this matter be kept out of the media. We have low key response in the pipeline when the issue finally appears in the media.

Request for Assistance: We would like some help from pilots who attended the Dublin Town Hall meetings on November 4th. If you took notes of the information on the Powerpoint slide with "Pros" and "Cons" of being well behaved (as we know several of you did), we would particularly like you to retain those notes as they may have an important role to play in the future. Please use the "PM" (Personal Message) facility to tell us if you have such notes and indicate if you were at the first or the second meeting. There is no need to provide your name in the PM (please send it to REPAI).

FlyingIrishman

15th Nov 2004, 19:54

Thanks for informing Mick and his Merry Men about what REPA is up to - I'm sure the lads and lasses in DUB will highly appreciate it!!!

delwy

15th Nov 2004, 21:40

S-me-bum - well it looks like you feel the desire for confidentiality does not apply to you! Indeed the contrary. Presumably you are either terminally stupid or, more likely, courting favour in the corridors of power (or, even more likely, have been given this little gift by a courtier?). S-me-a, you are well named and obviously not a particularly pleasant cup of tea. But all of this gives substance to the rumours that Ryanair may be in a bit more trouble than it would like to be with its pilots this time round.

May the day of reckoning come as soon as possible.

teapea

16th Nov 2004, 10:45

No no, Securitymearse isn't an ill diciplined REPA member, its simply (and a rather dull witted) provocation!! For that matter it might be Mick himself - we all know he likes pprune!

What's sad is that one of our chums provided the copy! Remember, 'Trust God and the righteousness of our cause'.
Well someone said that maybe - Henry V at Agincourt - Nelson at Trafalgar - Duke of Wellington at Waterloo? Anyone remember who it was?

chikenscanfly

16th Nov 2004, 16:37

securitymeasure

whatever the intent,

your action was foolish

please do not reveal further information from the site...

you may find the reprisals can be more individually focused than group-affective...from either side...

the grim repa

16th Nov 2004, 18:34

i would advocate that all ryanair and repa members refrain from being drawn in by such a ploy.mearse" knows nothing" and that is why he is here to vent his spleen.the control is lost.why did he not post the ever increasing numbers of repa members.
ignore him and do not reply to his or any other posts of this nature.let him rant away.we at least have our pride.let him take it up the jacksie from the top table if he so wishes.he might even catch a few crumbs from the table like the lords dog.

ar aigaidh an bothar leat,mo chairde!

securitymearse

17th Nov 2004, 09:45

"We do not want the dates of these meetings publicised. Please do not talk or speculate here about these meetings.The issue here is prudence, not censorship. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD REFERENCE BE MADE TO THESE MEETINGS ON PPRUNE - you might as well telephone Ryanair directly.

Contrary to what most Ryanair pilots may think, it is surprising what does NOT get back to management. IALPA is satisfied - and very pleased - that very little got back over the summer. We would like to keep it like that.

When the meetings are over, please conduct any discussions here with caution.

Additional Information

We will share with all REPA members IALPA's belief that these may turn out to be the most important IALPA meetings that the Dublin and Shannon pilots will ever attend. (BALPA members based in Dublin are not only welcome to attend, but will also be equal partners in all deliberations, decisions, etc. This invitation has been communicated to the BALPA pilots by IALPA). Given the significance of the issues to be discussed, and unlike our earlier meetings, they will be restricted to IALPA and BALPA members.

We will provide as much information as we can about these meetings once they are over, though the details will depend upon the decisions reached by those attending. Details of the proposals may not be made public for a few weeks. This is because there maybe more to come and we wish to prevent Ryanair from preparing its defences.

The bottom line: a long period of preperation came to an end with the establishment of REPA. In the overall plan events may dictate modifications, delays, etc. but please accept that a lot of work has gone into creating a strategy which minimises the risks to individual pilots in Ryanair but which also holds out the prospect of significant change.

Remember: you will always be free to deny:

i) that you know anything
ii) that you are a member of REPA, and
iii) that you are a member of any association

As many of you will already know, BALPA and IALPA have already agreed that we will never claim more than 85% membership in any particular base or category (captains, co-pilots, contractors... whatever).

Therefore credible deniability will always be an option for you. Turn the tables: if you end up forced into a "little chat" use it to get information about their latest scheme, rather than give information to them."

beardy

17th Nov 2004, 10:03

Self declaration: I am not, have never and never intend to be employed in Ryanair.

In my opinion the individual relaying from the REPA site is doing REPA a favour. It may be that he/she intends to intimidate by exposing the depth of knowledge that MOL has (or now has following the disclosures) if that is the case, what he/she is really doing is exposing the limits of their knowledge i.e. depths of ignorance. This is very useful information and should be manipulated accordingly.

Good luck with the establishment of a safe and humane regime

Idunno

17th Nov 2004, 11:27

There will always be 'moles' and company-men in any association guys. The Aer Lingus wing of IALPA will tell you this quite clearly...every meeting was attended by them...they usually sat at the front and took notes.

They were never hard to spot, and they were well known to all.

On several occassions members stood up at meetings, pointed them out, and asked that they be removed from the meeting.
On every occassion a member of the executive would point out that their presence was useful in relaying to management the seriousness of intent, anger, and commitment at the meeting.

Let him waffle away. He is a messenger boy and only helps your cause. He should remember that the Ryanair members of REPA could probably point him out in a crowd already.

under_exposed

17th Nov 2004, 11:48

Remember: you will always be free to deny:
i) that you know anything
ii) that you are a member of REPA, and
iii) that you are a member of any association

Lying to an employeer is not generally a wise move.

chikenscanfly

17th Nov 2004, 15:46

under...

its either that or get the boot...

the grim repa

1st Dec 2004, 10:05

all ryanair pilots log on to www.repaweb.org for the latest important developments.
for those considering an action breaking move back to dublin,this is most important to you.
just see what you are really getting into.

the grim repa

1st Dec 2004, 11:40

pressman,i would like to but repa rules do not allow.suffice to say that excess 300 heads at repa and a lot of pilots futures, and not just those in ryanair,riding on the outcome.this is the real deal.

ryanair pilots,now is your time to be counted,fight or flight.

Ms. Turret (Ozi)

1st Dec 2004, 12:38

Hi Grim, et al.

I have a question for you. What, in precise terms, do you want from the Ryans that you don't already have now? What do you hope to achieve with this REPA bollox? And the real clincher, in a contest between a few disgruntled whingers among a group renown for their independance of thought and action, and Himself the evil leprechaun, lapdog of Bealzebub himself, do you really, really think anything will come of it? Would you care to have a little wager on the outcome? Sure bets come along so rarely!

Bealzebub

1st Dec 2004, 14:45

Excuse me ms Turret !!!

You leave me and my lapdog out of this !

securitymearse

2nd Dec 2004, 12:15

Repa mtng @ STN Whitehall Htl Bloxted 5m to N STN. 02 Dec 1630-1900/ 03 Dec 0930-1200. Turn up anytime 4 briefing / discussion. REPAB/REPAI Moderators

Shamjet

3rd Dec 2004, 09:14

Charlie
Oscar
Charlie
Kilo

Desperate measures

Ms. Turret (Ozi)

3rd Dec 2004, 11:01

Hi Bealzebub,

Sorry for taking thy name in vein, oh Prince of Darkness. It probably won't happen again.

Hi Grim,

What a sorry little girl you are. Rather than answer the question about what you want that you don't already have....what it is you expect Repa to do for your twerp existence, you revert, again, to insults and name calling. I don't intend to join you in your fiesta of abuse, but you do need some guidance, it would appear, as to Antipodean tastes.

I think you'll find that warm beer and pig-ugly women are an English affliction. Along with appalling teeth, the ugliest, least functional airports on earth, uninspired architecture, and a truly dazzling sense of entitlement, displayed so admirably by your bad self, Grim. Now then, how about we all play nice, like gwone-ups, and focus on the issues at hand, eh? There's a good girl.

Ozi.

chikenscanfly

3rd Dec 2004, 11:22

Many a day hath passed since I last frequented this site, and look where it has come to...

As usual, SM is playing up to his old tricks...shame he can't get the details right...

And now there is open public abuse between an Australian and an apparent Irishman...or whatever nationality for that matter...

Ms. Turret, I doubt you comprehend the state in which Ryanair employees find themselves today, as well as the level of intimidation and pure disrespect...

Ill give you an insider's look into what we put up with...SM is management, getting his details secondhand, posting them just to further scare us and aleviate as best the company can an unstoppable uprising...

This I say without any intention towards disrespect or insult...

On the other hand, should you be a FRyer, I would highly recommend you take a look at repaweb.org (http://www.repaweb.org) and realise just exactly what the company you work for is doing, is planning to do, and is ommiting to tell you...

Ryanair does NOT give their staff the best conditions in the industry!
Ryanair does NOT pay the best salaries neither in Europe nor Worldwide!
Ryanair does NOT provide a career building ethos!

maxalt

3rd Dec 2004, 11:29

I think you'll find that warm beer and pig-ugly women are an English affliction. Along with appalling teeth, the ugliest, least functional airports on earth, uninspired architecture, and a truly dazzling sense of entitlement, displayed so admirably by your bad self, Grim. Now then, how about we all play nice, like gwone-ups, and focus on the issues at hand, eh? There's a good girl.

Ms. Turret (Ozi)...are you O'Leary?
You sure sound like him. same strain of verbal diahorrea anyhow.
Get it seen to..... there's a good girl.

minuteman

3rd Dec 2004, 12:56

Quote:
"What, in precise terms, do you want from the Ryans that you don't already have now?"

How about a standard contract, for starters?

Quote:
"What do you hope to achieve with this REPA bollox?"

Well if you read all the stuff that's been on PPRuNe for the last while you wouldn't need to ask, would you?

Quote:
"And the real clincher, in a contest between a few disgruntled whingers among a group renown for their independance of thought and action, and Himself the evil leprechaun, lapdog of Bealzebub himself, do you really, really think anything will come of it? Would you care to have a little wager on the outcome?"

As a great man once said, "the graveyards are full of indispensible people."

Of course, Ms. Turret, if you wish to discuss any of your concerns with other FR colleagues (presuming you are an "FRyer"), please sign up to the REPA website where debate ensues!

Danny

3rd Dec 2004, 13:36

I'd just like to make two points that should clarify what I expect from this thread:

1. The next poster who is unable to make their point in a civilised and dignified manner will find their efforts wasted as I will not hesitate to delete their post and any previous posts they may have made. Unless members who are opposing each others views and opinions can show a level of maturity and professionalism in such an important debate about T's & C's that may have repercussions for all of us at some time in the future, then what hope is there? I won't have REPA members use this board for self promotion, even if I did give them assistance in getting their message across, if they are unable to put their case forward without antagonism, even if a few other members are unable to contain their enthusiasm for playground antics and flaming.

2. If REPA is so worried that they have a rogue member who is posting information that they want to keep private on here then they should look to their own management of their members and not expect PPRuNe to censor any tidbits of news that are occasionally posted. This forum works both ways. The problems Ryanair pilots are facing have been aired and publicised and this forum has been used to rally others to the cause of REPA. If someone was not leaking information that REPA consider sensitive on here then how else would they know they have a problem in the first place? It works both ways and I would suggest to REPA that they find a way to release some information that would both bolster their recruitment drive and give the rest something to think about rather than just repetitive links to their website which are a dead end to anyone else trying to follow what is actually happening.

Anyone can join in the debate about what is happening at Ryanair with regard to the issues affecting their flight crew as long as you leave the tantrums, insults, immature behaviour and flaming in your crewbags. :*

smartarse

6th Dec 2004, 10:41

WOW!

Danny aka has spoken.

However I don't think that he is being objective. Absolutely right when he says debates on any website, on any subject should be conducted in a manner becomming. But it was Ms. Turret (Ozi) who imported the use of inapproriate and insulting language and who reinforced the internationally held prejudice (though no doubt overstated) that nothing comes out of that large land that would not serve us all better by remaining there.

Danny also reflects his preoccupation that members of the Ryanair pilots organ repaweb are somehow subverting his website for publicity purposes and reflecting their paranoia regarding the postings of my colleague in aviation securitymearse .

Surely not, aren't they merely reflecting that the hughly successful airline that they work for continues to intimidate its employees and to treat them with disdain and total disrepect?

Let not Ryanair ever suggest that it is modelled on SWA.