Aer Arran big announcement!!!

[scraglad]

Aer Arran staff have been invited to a big announcement this Friday at the plush City West hotel,Dublin. The company directors have splashed out big big money for the hotel so I can only gather its going to be a big move by the company. Word in Dublin has it that they plan to go trans-atlantic. Anyone know whats brewing up???

[fairness]

They have been going trans-atlanic for years - irish mainland to arann islands - thus their name

seriously - more likly to announce move of corp hq from dublin to galway

[CAT MAN]

Word on the street is a transatlantic operation using the Boeing 757. I have heard of EICK being a possible departure point for such an operation.
Additionally,the company is to start a holiday charter type operation.(More rumour, but hey, this what the R in PPRUNE is for)

I wish them the best in developing furthr business into and out of Ireland.

[aeulad]

It's about time Aer Arann looked at more Cork-UK routes. No one is serving Newcastle, Liverpool, Exeter, London City, Luton or Jersey from ORK. London faces some stiff competition, but surely, the NCL and LPL routes, which have been proven in the past should have someone plying them??

Regards

Mike

[flyerz111]

Citywest = same owner as Weston = RE move from Dublin to Weston with Citywest owner taking stake? Now that would really please the residents of Lucan.

Then again, it may be a choice for Dublin-based staff to either take the N4 or P45?

Or maybe a pep talk and a few quid or shares for all staff ?

rumours, rumours and more rumours...

[Jamesair]

I agree with Mike. NCL had good loads with BACX on the ORK route and I'm surprised that no-one else has taken it up.

[The_Bean_Counter]

Have they been sold off ?

[scraglad]

You could be spot on Flyerz 111,the on going development in Weston would support your reply.They have almost completed the building of a (hanger,terminal) and a new runway has also just been built there. When Jim Mansfield the owner took over, he wanted the airfield equiped with lights etc,and the residents in Lucan totally objected to this so that could cause a problem if thats the plan. We will just have to wait and see.

[neidin]

Doubt that Aer Arran will move services from DUB to Weston as under the terms of their contract for the Government PSO routes they have to fly to Dublin Airport and offer connections their. They have been very badly treated at Galway and at Dublin airport. Possibly they will move admin HQ to Weston and start a few services but that would be very daft. Split ops between Dub, Gwy and Weston.

They have been looking for planes to operate ORK and KIR to NYC but how do they hope to sell the seats in USA. 757 can op from KIR and ORK non-stop to SNN and under charter ops does not have to operate at SNN. But how do you sell all those seats when the 80% will originate in USA. ATA and others can easily supply them. They have even been offered the 737-800 with up engs as per GLA. They will need to get an Irish tour ops licence to sell these. But how do you sell the seats in the USA propellor heads?

[Cyrano]

Neidin:

I don't believe scheduled operations from ORK or KIR need to stop at SNN under the bilateral - this only relates to DUB services. So they could sell the seats as scheduled ones via the normal GDS channels, or stick with their online distribution and plan for major marketing spend in their US markets (yeah, right), or focus their marketing spend entirely on the Irish community over there.

Incidentally if they do launch transatlantic they may as well rechristen themselves now: most people on PPRUNE seem to want to write Aer Arann as "Aer Arran" and this is an aviation-industry site - God knows what the US market will make of it. Maybe a change of name coming up, seeing that the Aran Islands play less and less of a role in all this?

C.

[neidin]

Yes the PR people at Dublin Airport Authority say it is ORK to NYC and BOS, NOC to NYC and KIR to NYC. Under the Bilaterals any scheduled operation from ORK or KIR or NOC to USA definitely has to operate 50% via SNN. With Charters that is not the case.

Cork Airport are hoping that Aer Arann will annouce the services on Friday before they have nailed down the Dublin Airport Authority / Cork Airport on any kind of financial commitment to support the flights. The old Aer Rianta who are now Dublin Airport Authority think that Aer Arann are daft to operate from ORK and will stiff them on a deal.

ORK has a flat rate of EURO 3 per passenger for new scheduled services and Aer Arann will be lucky to get this but will get little else. CORK are talking to Continental Airlines on a direct service year round to NYC. They reckon that let Aer Arann have a lash at it next May to Sep and prove some traffic and more importantly technical aspects on the route then as they said "Let a real airline replace the messers" on the route.

How do Aer Arann really think they can sell CORK in USA without a real distribution network. I guess that is why they will sell a few flights from Kerry. The Killarney Kerry link is where the Americans will go anyway so I guess that makes some sense.

Maybe Aer Arann thinks in some way this will help them get the PSO services again when they are up for review in 2005.

I wonder have any of them spoken to USA Homeland Security!
That might be where SNN wins in the end.

[Cyrano]

Under the Bilaterals any scheduled operation from ORK or KIR or NOC to USA definitely has to operate 50% via SNN. With Charters that is not the case.

I respectfully disagree. Any scheduled operation between DUB and the USA has to operate the same number of flights to/from SNN, but I do not see any equivalent restriction for Irish airports other than DUB in the bilateral. Feel free to PM me if you think I've missed something.

[Tom the Tenor]

Where can we get our hands on a copy of the bilateral? This should resolve the matter?

You all know how I try to champion Cork so much and any new service from Cork would be welcome. I was awake for some time overnight thinking about this! Must be going potty? I find the story about Aer Arann going transatlantic ex Cork, Kerry and Knock bizarre. Aer Lingus will hardly lie down and let RE have things to themselves? Okay, EI may not yet have to balls to try America ex Cork directly but they can sure knock down the prices ex snn if not dub by a lot if they want, anything between 50 and 100 euro. That would scupper any RE plan? Sure, 757 lease prices might be had for a low price but the operating costs and with increasing fuel prices and going transatlantic the prices they would have to charge would be prohibitive?

However, a lot of the background work has already been done ref: the failed Ryan International series this past summer so any requirements to satisfy Homeland Security would be achieved. This issue would not cause any failure of the RE plan.

RE is very important to Cork and for that I have a lot of respect for them. They are also a source of good employment for Cork people with flight crew, cabin crew and engineering teams all based in Cork. Have they more money than sense here, though? If this big jet plan goes wrong it could bleed them big time. Why not continue with what they are good at for a while more? Think what could be done with another ATR-42/72 ex Cork and elsewhere? Why not introduce a ORK-GWY, ORK-NTE, ORK-BOD, ORK-NCL, ORK-LTN, ORK-GLA, even a Cork-Bilbao as most people from Spain who live in Ireland come from the Basque Country?

If the 757s go ahead I would propose combing the ORK & KIR flights for a start on a triangular basis. Got to make more sense? NOC could take some flights alright during the peak summer months but better still would be to lengthen the runway at Galway and go transatlantic from there - that would be one big moneyspinner? Mind you, RE and Galway have not always got on, is that correct!!?

Would the ATA 737-800s with winglets in RE colours make it ex-ORK, KIR & NOC to New York and Boston?! Perhaps, a little on the edge? Costs would be better, though, and more possible with an 10 or so pax restriction if the airports would pick up the tab? Purely speculation, of course!

If the plan goes ahead with the 757s I sure wish them well but I urge them to be as cautious as they can and to have an escape route planned just in case! :eek:

[neidin]

The Dublin Airport people say today that the Aer Arann plan is to fill the seats from Cork outbound to USA. They reckon that at EURO 600 rtn they will fill quick. Could be a good plan and with just 1000 seats a week for 20 weeks ex ORK it does not seem so crazy. It is a new market really. NOC could be much more difficult.

It may not be as risky as you think. 757's with 200+ config operated to Kerry twice away back in 1995. They filled very well with the fares from the old Sceptre charters which were USD800. Kerry had to go through FAA exams at that time and our old EI crew helped them with a loan of some airstarts from SRS SNN. It sold out in days and ops were a cinch. I reckon the same staff from KIR are still there. Kerry - KIR fire staff are all trained at CAA Teeside so will already be way ahead on the OPS.

Selling the seats from NYC to KIR weekly will be easy as that is where most of the SNN Yanks go to anyway - Killarney - why don't they call it Killarney Airport. The number of Americans in Killarney 365 days of the year who drive to/from SNN is massive.

Aer Arann already has a great website and brand in Ireland - they could easy make EURO 20 per seat on 20,000 seats ex CORK and EURO 40 on 4,000 seats ex Kerry. Over EURO 500,0000 and incredible PR in a year when they are retrying to get their PSO's - why not do it.

I still reckon Aer Arann will be screwed by Dublin Airport Authority / Cork on a lousy risk deal on these charters. They are laughing at them for not negotiating and CORK just see this as a Trojan Horse to get Continental into CORK.

[Exospheric]

"Think what could be done with another ATR-42/72 ex Cork and elsewhere? Why not introduce a ORK-GWY, ORK-NTE, ORK-BOD, ORK-NCL, ORK-LTN, ORK-GLA, even a Cork-Bilbao as most people from Spain who live in Ireland come from the Basque Country?"

Yes, but most people who live in Ireland do not come from Cork, everywhere is entitled to a free shot at the USA, I think Knock has a bigger part to play in this than most people think, watch this space...............

[lowfaresbuster]

not too sure if aer arran are going to do this- why are they using a Dublin Hotel for a mainly Munster Announcement?

Also although many Irish Americans will be able to recognise 'Arann' as being a Irish Irish airline, many [non-Irish Americans] will get it confused with 'Air Iran'- which may not sell too many tickets from the US.

The name confusion pushed Aer Arann to try marketing in the UK with the skyroad brand- but they ditched this. However in the meantime they have started to sell more directly, which may prompt them to use the name again?

[Tom the Tenor]

Better to have any announcements in Dublin as it is more likely to have heavy hitters there from the Dublin based media especially national TV & radio. Cork's Irish Examiner newspaper too have some good people based in the capital so that part of the jigsaw should come together well.

I too am inclined to think that Knock has a good lot to do with this coming together. A fabulous way of putting the west of Ireland at the centre of things. Traditionally the west of Ireland has looked on itself as being somewhat out of the loop compared to the more precious east coast set up.

As for Continental at Cork - I see it not. Continental do not have an endless supply of 757-200s for the North Atlantic so they are a scarce resource. If they had a choice of say NCL or ORK to EWR which do you think they would choose especially if the choice too was between a daily flight to Newcastle or something like x 3 or 4 per week to Cork? Business class yield too would never be that strong from Cork?

A summer season by RE from ORK, KIR and NOC could well work over a season of say May to September. What then with leased 757s? South Africa? Hardly? Orlando via Bangor, maybe!? Tee, hee! Could not resist that!

[neidin]

Dublin Airport Authority people reckon it is 5 ex ORK and 1 each from KIR and NOC. Maybe NOC is hoping to get a second plane. Well why not. Daily from NOC to USA! Monsignor Horan - you must be praying hard tonight.

[lowfaresbuster]

Cork has a lot of US/Multi-National pharmaceutical firms with plants there- Phizer, Johnson & Johnson, Novartis, Eli Lilly. As well as companies like Pepsi etc.- I think ORK-NYC will have no problem filling both business or ecomony class 7 days a week.

(Tom may be able to expand on more companies down there?)

Whether its Continental or Aer Arann

(PS Tom, Point taken about Dublin Press Conference)

[irishcc]

Could it be a codeshare between them ??

[EIDW Spotter]

It would be nice to see an A330 in Aer Arann colours, has the B757 defiently been selected as the equipment to be used for the launch Trans Atlantic services?

[neidin]

Dublin Airport Authority people are getting this blocked at Govt level. EI also working hard to get it blocked. Tom you could be right - we might see the A330 as a result of this at ORK. Dublin Airport Authority have even more power over ORK and SNN now. EI putting the boot in very heavy on new kids on that block.

[Tom the Tenor]

Well, guess we will know more later today!

Kind of troubled by Neidin's comments above. DAA, EI, Govt all ganging up on RE? If so, not exactly the spirit of free enterprise at work? Might make the adversary feel bloodyminded and more determined than before?

Should be interesting! ;)

[Shamrogue]

Tiz and interesting debate.

Personally, I think RE would be bonkers to look at the Atlantic. The economics of doing so would ruin the airline especially quick. With a very aggressive EI on the routes, CO and DL the whole thing could get very messy. Even out of ORK. EI have the ability to bob in on ORK-NYC simply from the point they can control the seat numbers and possibly reduce SNN or Dub alittle until the route settles down.
The only string to RE's bow is their route network and potential feed from the UK. Again this is difficult with airlines such as CO opening up direct TA operations from UK regionals.

Of course these are but mere thoughts. It will be interesting to see what comes out of the announcement.

Shamrogue

PS...........Could we see them move their HQ to EIWF. A nice helpful little airport................or to swipe Tom the Tenors marketing line........."The Little Airport with the Big Heart".

[EI-WAT]

Could we see them move their HQ to EIWF


You may be onto something there shamrogue, but more than likely from what i've heard Aer Arann wont be going TA but getting regional jets and starting services further afield in euorpe. The citywest thing is to thank all employees for their help in winning the Bronze Airline of the Year Award.


EI-WAT

[Shamrogue]

Regional Jets,

Hmm could we speculate as to type? How would these fit in with EIWF and Galway etc. Or would the purpose of these be operations from ORK and DUB?

Hopefully we'll know more this afternoon. EH WAT I say old chap.

Shamrogue

[EI-WAT]

There will be a fair bit of building work going on in eiwf which i believe may include a 600m extension to the runway. I've heard that 146's being mentioned, but i may be wrong


EI-WAT

[bacardi walla]

Next thing we'll know is that Titan have leased a couple of 146's to Aer Arran :mad:

[neidin]

Dublin Airport Authority staff (DAA) say that RE have been given status as Ireland's second carrier on TA by Irish Govt. They had plans propmpted by Irish PM to start TA. They were due to announce today. DAA, IAA and Irish Dept. Transport all stopped it this week due to safety, security, finance, aircraft register, bilaterals, SNN stopover, etc.....

There is going to be an almighty shock to the system at ORK and SNN in next 10 days with moves being made by Gary McGann at DAA on unions. War has been declared. SNN and ORK watch out.

Some of RE directors briefed DAA yesterday and it was ORK-JFK, ORK-BOS, NOC-JFK, maybe KIR-JFK and also DUB-DXB and they were never getting much help from ORK. Of such crazy dreams are airlines reborn.

146's are a little like as Orwell said "Two legs good four legs bad". Two engines good - four engines very bad. RE are starting to fall in love with airplanes rather than running an airline. They are losing it.

[The 5Q]

As supected a great party for winning the bronze award. Sweet FA about the big announcement

[jmc-man]

Neidin

Of such crazy dreams are airlines reborn

Sorry, but of such crazy dreams are airlines usually destroyed, chasing the " Golden Goose" of transatlanitc profitability.

Knock, Kerry and Cork have a limited Business traffic on the routes and due to population sizes, a one way (Eastbound) leisure market.

At the moment fares across the atlantic are as low, at times, as 300 Euros. I have just purchased at ticket from London to Boston ( via Detroit) for £150.

I know all the people who live in Cork, Kerry and Knock ( ??) would say they want their own transatlantic services, but , when push came to shove, they wouldn't pay the fare levels required to make this operation profitable.

RE should concentrate on what they , apparently, do well, namely short haul regional flying.

[Tom the Tenor]

To think I lost sleep earlier in the week due to all this and all that happens in the end was one big party and I did not even get a drink out of it!! :rolleyes:

However, again, some of Neidin's remarks above are curious. We hear that the Irish Govt has granted status to RE as Ireland's second transatlantic carrier and in the next breath we hear the Irish Department of Transport was one of the parties that have objected to Aer Arann's plans on the grounds of safety, security, aircraft register, billaterals etc! What is going on here? Curiouser and curiouser?

Well, whatever about the North Atlantic the RE plan to take on DUB-DXB is a corker of an idea beating both EI and the procrastinators at EK to the first prize. However, they might have had trouble arranging a code share in Dubai with EK for connecting flights?

Jmc-man, there is surely a North American market ex-ORK. The market needs to be tested. A daily flight might be a little too much but a summertime three or four flights a week, even two flights a week - I say, why not? Low yield, perhaps, but then again Irish people are very used to paying high prices for everything so the earlier mentioned 600 Euro or thereabouts the Cork passenger might just pay? Yield not so low now? Congratulations on your £150 fare to Boston. To benefit from that fare the Cork pax will have to pay up to 100 Euro to connect from London? Already getting near the 300 Euro winter fare price. What is your mid summer fare LHR-BOS? Somewhat more than £150, at least?

The free market will determine this. However, the billateral is a significant interference to free market operations in air transport between Ireland and the USA. No doubt about it.

[CCR]

There was a quote in an Irish paper this week from one of the managers in the new Cork Airport Authority that if the current bilateral with the US is changed, Cork airport would have a transatlantic carrier lined up within a forthnight.....
Clearly, there is a major business demand especially from all the Pharmaceutical and IT companies in the region.
Asides from RE plans for Cork, the other 2 carriers most likely interested in operating a transatlantic service would be EI and CO. As regards Knock and Kerry, there could at least be a seasonal service to the US. All these airports and regions growth is constrained due to the current Shannon stopover requirement!!!!:{

[The 5Q]

Anyone else heards this ....

The Galway Advertiser also reports that Aer Arann CEO Padraig O Ceidigh has been elected onto the council of Galway Chamber of Commerce which owns the airport

[Tom the Tenor]

Well, a nice long runway on the way for Galway, then!?

Good luck to 'em!