ryan air looking for pilots?

[number]

hi guys.

I've heard some rumors about ryan air looking for unexperienced pilots. Is there any open session with them?
Has anyone heard anything?

[touch&go]

They are called Ryanair.

[Frank Furillo]

Number
Read these first:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145618
and
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=137992
and
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=148124

Then give them a call, after you have booked the taxi to the nearest asylum

FF

[Francesco82]

Well are they recruiting then? I am low hours pilot, do I have to pay 50£ to apply?

Thanx a lot guys

[trainer too 2]

For asking questions that are asked only a thousand times before on this board we should charge you GBP 50 as you look more than happy to part with it.... :E

[Mudvayne]

I did an interview for them in august...

but no recruiting of unexperienced pilots untill februari 2005...(that was the first thing they said to me when I entered the interview)

[wobblyprop]

Mudvayne,

Did they relieve you of any money before they told you that?

[Mudvayne]

nope, didn't have to pay for the inteview....

only for my ticket to Dublin and back which was expensive enough

[Francesco82]

Mudvayne

Have you been called directly by Ryanair or by one of their certified schools?

thanx bye

[Maxiumus]

And still the fools line up to join O'Learys merry men.

[Lil' Pilot]

It maybe a bad thing, but I can understand those "fools". Ryanair is far from the ideal company to work for. However it can be used as a stepping stone in a person's carreer. You work your ass off for some time. It's ****ty, but after a while when they get their jet hours, it enhances their chances to get hired by a respectable airline. Especially nowadays when it can be hard to find a jet job as a lowtimer. If you're a lowtimer and you have the choice to stay unemployed for some time, or to cut the bs and get those valuable hours, the choice is easily made. Don't complain, fly your ass off, and get the hell out of there. It mind sound selfish, but it's a hard world. In the end you also have to think about yourself, and your future.

Ciao, Lil' P

[Mudvayne]

ryanair called me directly

and finding a job on a 737-800 with only 250 hrs isn't that easy...And honestly I would love to work for ryanair! So what I'm being threated like ****, I fly a lot of hours on a fantastic airplane, and after 2 years I earn a lot of money... So what I have to bring my own food and have to pay for my costume and license... What I want to do is to fly as much as possible! and please don't start to convince me about how they destroy the fantastic pilot world... I read that and it didn't convince me...

[Lil' Pilot]

Mudvayne,

I totally agree with you. Good luck, and enjoy:ok: !

Lil' P

[Pilot Pete]

and please don't start to convince me about how they destroy the fantastic pilot world

No intention. But, a bit of food for thought. Ryanair operate out of Stansted, using Irish registered aircraft, employing pilots who work to Irish duty hours, which are less limiting than their UK counterparts and competitors. Just look at the number of contributers to the thread calling for their pilots to stand together to try to improve their lot. Why so many if it's a bed of roses? The novelty of flying for an airline will not take long to wear off under such condidtions and the thought of a 30 year career with such conditions will not be enough to convince you to stay. it can be used as a stepping stone in a person's carreer. You work your ass off for some time. It's ****ty, but after a while when they get their jet hours, it enhances their chances to get hired by a respectable airline. The problem with this statement is that all the time an individual tries to employ this tactic they are dragging the 'respectable' airlines terms and conditions down as the 'respectable' airlines try to compete and win back market share, introducing new lower starting wages and closing pension schemes etc. Be careful that you don't end up moving into an airline that you 'perceived' to be better, but in reality only offers better industrial relations and not the same money! It's a downward spiral all the time the current practices go on, not just for Ryanair pilots, but for all pilots in the UK. That's why I support their bid to get recognition and to hopefully improve their lot.

Try thinking outside the box, you may be surprised at the reality. MOL just loves all those pilots who come for a few years and then leave..............

PP

[Lil' Pilot]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it can be used as a stepping stone in a person's carreer. You work your ass off for some time. It's ****ty, but after a while when they get their jet hours, it enhances their chances to get hired by a respectable airline.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with this statement is that all the time an individual tries to employ this tactic they are dragging the 'respectable' airlines terms and conditions down as the 'respectable' airlines try to compete and win back market share, introducing new lower starting wages and closing pension schemes etc. Be careful that you don't end up moving into an airline that you 'perceived' to be better, but in reality only offers better industrial relations and not the same money! It's a downward spiral all the time the current practices go on, not just for Ryanair pilots, but for all pilots in the UK. That's why I support their bid to get recognition and to hopefully improve their lot.

Try thinking outside the box, you may be surprised at the reality. MOL just loves all those pilots who come for a few years and then leave..............


Pilot Pete, I said that I can understand why people go for Ryanair. I didn't say that it's the right thing to do. I was looking through the eyes of a wannebee. I can understand that if you're desperate, one takes a chance at Ryanair.

Ciao, Lil' P

[Maxiumus]

Mudvayne

You really don't get it do you? Let's examine your principles (or lack thereof):

"So what I'm being threated like ****"

Do you really suffer from such low exteem and lack of self-confidence? Then I would suggest you are unfit to fly an airliner.

"after 2 years I earn a lot of money"

You won't. And with your attitude and that of others, FR don't have to.

"So what I have to bring my own food and have to pay for my costume and license..."

Guess what buddy, the existing pilots in FR do care very much about things like this. Hence the union. Read the FR threads. And you will care also very much about these things when the novelty wears off (this takes about 6 months).

"please don't start to convince me about how they destroy the fantastic pilot world... I read that and it didn't convince me..."

Maybe try talking to some FR pilots then. Or maybe you're actually management.

L'il Pilot:

You say "If you're a lowtimer and you have the choice to stay unemployed for some time, or to cut the bs and get those valuable hours, the choice is easily made."

Well no, ever hear of instructing and getting paid to gain experience? Rather than the zero sum game you want to play (zero to you, numbers with lots of zeroes for O'Leary).

I could say plenty more but Pilot Pete has put it very well.

When the hell will these fools realise that there will be no respectable airlines due to their stupidity and lack of foresight??

[The mole]

Ryanair will continue operating as it does and getting away with it until they have lost two airframes. If that ever happens they will go out of business. Is this the way we should be challenging our terms and conditions and the Ryanair business model?
You can cut corners and pile em high/sell em cheap in some businesses. You cannot do it in a safety critical business.

[yyzdub]

Understandably there are a number of reasons to get down on Ryanair and some of their practices, however I still can’t seem to figure why people on Pprune are continually getting down on newbies investigating Ryanair as a possible route to getting their foot in the door.

Sure there are other options as mentioned ie. Instructing, bush flying, etc but if one has/had the means to pay for a type and line training with the likes of Ryanair, Air Asia and whoever else offer a similar scheme, then why wouldn’t they? The only reason I can see against following this route is to save the feelings of those particular pilots who have the attitude that those (as they put it) are devaluing the industry. I am no expert on all the ins and outs but what I do know, and easily applies to any job, if you have the opportunity then take it. If I were in the position of looking for a first job, I certainly wouldn’t say no to an opportunity for fear of upsetting others or “devaluing” the industry. It seems like it’s just whining and winging on here. Get a grip!

And… with regards to Ryanair, I know a few pilots flying for them who thoroughly enjoy their job, have no desire to go anywhere else, are making exceptionally good money and have great job satisfaction. So, before you rant on about O’Leary, paying for a job and the inadequate practices about Ryanair, why don’t you think about expressing your opinions as just that – opinions rather than as fact as you so preach.

Good luck to those starting out… take the opportunity that you feel is the best but do the research.

yyzdub

[Mudvayne]

thanks yyzdub!

btw: I just wanted to reply on the question if ryanair was searching lowtimers...

and I askes you guys, don't try to convince me!... There are lot of other threads about ryanair...I read them, and I know a lot about them... I just wanted to answer the question, not some kind of endless discussion about ryanair,

And as yyzdub said, I also know a lot of ryanair pilots who are perfectly happy about their job...!

Maxiumus:

you really don't get it do you? I do get it, I want to fly...not sit at home reading these forums....

[v12merlin]

Mudvayne, if you've read the ryan threads and still fancy taking it up the poo shoot, be my guest your clearly bonkers. Just don't come crying when your sick of being treated like sh*t. All of us want jobs but some of us have drawn a line in the sand and feel we can do better. I don't believe absolutely everything I read on these forums but there's clearly something very wrong with Ryanair and its managements attitude towards pilots.

No matter what the T & C's there's always someone willing to stoop. STOP IT! It's counter productive.

Merlin.

[Baron rouge]

To add further to what is being said, you could easily remark that those guys criticising anybody ready to pay for his Type Rating are well established pilots earning a comfortable salary.
They won’t offer you any help, they are just afraid that their terms and conditions might deteriorate slightly.

If the industry is in that state, it is just because none of the fat pilots have done anything to help jobless ones. So don’t whinge now and try to impose jobless pilots to remain jobless just to protect your own perks.

[tom24]

Is the Ryanair SSTR FO scheme under subscribed?

If applied, and passed selection, would I get on the ship?

Surely, if you have fATPL status, there are lots more worst ways one could be out there making a living?

[Odd Skipper]

I only know two pilots fro Ryanair - both happy and getting paid well.
Can only add that along with my course buddies (met up at the Balpa Job fair!) without jobs, most don't want to stoop to Ryanair.
At least that's what we thought, slowly we're all secretly applying as if it's some kind of sin that we can't tell the rest about.
To get a jet job (even with Ryanair) would be a remarkable lift.
The guys here posting that we'd be fed up after 6 months. Guess what - it can't be worse than draining a Honey Tank orally which is the kind of sh!t jobs we've got now, with the hope that we might one day meet the donor of said contents and get a job from him.
Ryanair don't pay bad, and if you offset it against the costum hire etc.. it all works out pretty similar.
I for one have applied and am prepared to take one for the team from Mr O'Leary. Better that than this bloody Honey Tank.

[Vortex Thing]

Sorry have to go with the Mudvayne on this.

Mudvayne if you want it go get it.

You're quite right not to have to put up with the comments you have received about applying for Ryanair.

In your situation I would sell my soul to the devil and I would not care who knew. Some people want it that bad, they can have it.

Almost all of those who are complaining that you and others are eroding the industry terms and conditions are not sitting at home reading forums trying to find anyway to get a living wage (no isntruction is not a living wage b4 you say it is) for flying they are mostly working in shiny turbos or jets.

There is no meritocracy out there. Being qualified and a nice guy whatever your background will help but it can only help if companies are actually interviewing and whilst they aren't then this is how it is.

If you've got the money and can handle the stress then why shouldn't you take a job.

Those with TnC issues should use their appropriate forum such as BALPA or their own airlines committee and if they want to change them then take appropriate union action. You can't complain that wannabies/newbies/etc erode your TnC if you work for a firm and do nothing YOU erode your TnCs.

Come the revoultion they'll be paying for you to come to interview but you may well starve or go bankrupt well before the revolution...

[Pilot Pete]

Vortex

I think you mis-understand the thrust of the argument. I think what people are trying to do is enlighten a few individuals with limited experience of the market to the whole argument for and against any decision to throw thousands at MOL.

Most pilots in companies with decent terms and conditions have done exactly what you suggest over the years and stood up and negotiated their renumeration package and other Ts & Cs.

The side of the argument I wanted people to consider is the idea that they will sell their granny to MOL, work for a couple of years taking the proverbial and then leave with their shiny jet type rating to a 'descent' employer. The fact is that their perceived descent airline is having to restructure and force down NEW JOINERS terms and conditions (they find it pretty hard to force lower pay and conditions on existing pilot employees who have good representation) and thus their plan has a flaw in it, which I suspect many had not considered before.

So I think it is an individual's choice to pay for a CV assessment, sim assessment, type rating, uniform, car park pass, drinks, accommodation and sim time for refreshers and not have a great pension to boot, as long as they go into it with their eyes open and understand the effect their choices will have on THEIR futures.

I am sure we all know Ryanair pilots, some who are happy and some who are not, just like in any airline, but the comparatively large number who air their unhappy views on here (which, let's face it must be a small minority of those who are unhappy), must say something about the company.

You pays yer money and you takes your choice. Just make sure it is a well reasoned choice and one you are happy with as an individual.

PP

ps, although initially pointed towards Vortex, as in my last post pointed towards Lil' Pilot, the comments are then generic towards Wannabes and not implying that the individuals should follow the advice!

[tom24]

Pete

You’ve been there, done it and seen it, and from what I can tell, you're a highly respected member of these forums.

I've read your excellent story. Now my question to you is:

Put yourself back a few years, before you got the break with the big boys, put yourself in the position of some of the guys looking for their first break today, would you go for Ryanair? What about Airasia, making reference to your thread a few days ago?

[Francesco82]

Mudvayne,

if you have not paid the required 50£, how did you send them your CV?

Thanx for your help mate,

byee

[Luke SkyToddler]

Would I go to Ryanair if I was in the position I was in 4 years ago - flogging C152s around the circuit and getting paid less than minimum wage in some flying school?

Of course I would, in a flamin' second! :ok:

Would I go there, now that I'm on a decent turboprop-captain wage? Hmmmm maybe ... not right now, but definitely in another year or two if I'm sick of working here and I haven't had the golden phone call from Emirates yet :E

Let me clarify before I get slaughtered by the anti-Ryanair police on here

A) Yes I think paying £50 to submit your CV is outrageous, and buying a type rating is b*ll*cks

B) Yes I think MOL is a particularly disagreeable character, who completely fails to realize that the long term cost of p!ssing off the troops far outweighs the money saved by doing ridiculous little things like taking away the free coffee. (Although we don't get any coffee, free or otherwise, on my current ship :{ )

I don't think it would be my first choice of jet airline employer but I too, know several Ryanair pilots who are *shock* actually happy with their lot, and *horror* quite enjoy their jobs. How much money do they make, I dunno, but it certainly appears to be enough to support a wife and 2 teenage kids, have a nice big 4 bed house in the country in Essex and drive a flashy new Range Rover to work :rolleyes:

Coming on here and going off at 200 hour wannabes for wanting to apply to Ryanair is absolutely ludicrous, and only shows how quickly people become removed from reality once they're driving that jet. Believe me Ryanair is far far from the bottom of the food chain, ask any flying instructor. A flying job - ANY flying job - is the only interest of most of the people in here. Getting a jet job with low hours, is like the goddam holy grail of the wannabe's forum if you hadn't noticed. And yes Ryanair falls into that category very nicely I'm afraid.

If you don't like what's happening at Ryanair then I'm afraid to tell you that the only people who can put a stop to it are the captains and senior FOs of Ryanair. The shareholders don't realize there's a problem and they certainly don't give a monkeys about management / staff bickering and all this alleged low morale, until the day they see a bunch of 737s sitting on the ground due to not enough crew. It has got to be driven by the captains and experienced guys because you're the ones who are in finite supply. You can take it as a given, that there will always be more low time non-experienced people than MOL knows what to do with.

[Pilot Pete]

For what it's worth,

No, I wouldn't touch the Air Asia offer with a barge pole, the contract I saw was just far too weighted in favour of them. They not only want you to pay for the type rating, but they then want to pay you peanuts and hold back some of that and then want to in effect 'bond you' by putting restrictions on when you can leave and say that you have to give them double the notice that they have to give you! Where does it end? Just how far do you have to go to get into this industry? That smacks of a restriction of trade in my mind, but you wouldn't be under UK law if you signed up for it.............

I fully accept that the game has changed since I got in and also agree that it is market forces; all the time individuals are willing to accept these ever lowering starting packages then the business managers will keep lowering them.

The pay for a type rating argument has been thrashed to death on these pages and I have contributed to a few of those threads too. My feelings are that it is unpalatable, but fast becoming a necessary step. There are still employers who will take you on without a type rating and not expect you to pay, but these are dwindling. Some have different schemes where they pay you a reduced salary for a few years (so in effect you are paying), which I think is better (as long as the wage isn't rediculously low) as if you weren't working and hence earning anything and then you got this break, you can view it as though you are not paying, just at the bottom of salary table with a low starting point, which is a lot more than you are currently on.............!

Something I always shy away from advising is going out and paying for a type rating and then trying to get yourself a job. This is purely based on risk and it is inevitable that the individual is going to think that this will put them in a much better employment position, but I think the reality is not always the same. Sure, some take the risk, get the break and never look back, but others are less successful and another £20k in debt. As more and more airlines tie themselves to a type rating service provider, your chances of being taken on with your ('a.n.other service providers') type rating are perhaps somewhat slimmer than you had anticipated. Add this to the fact that a turbo-prop operator is not going to be impressed by your shiny 737 rating (assuming you went for the 'Holy Grail' jet type rating) and quite rightly perceive that you are going to be off at the first opportunity with a few multi-crew airline hours under your belt and your number of potential employers has been diminished even more.

This is why, when directly asked I always advise (which of course does depend on age);

1. Apply to every man and his dog when you qualify. Network hard alongside this (which you should have been doing all through your training.
2. Apply to CTC (as soon as you qualify)
3. Keep enhancing the CV by way of adding hours (be that instructing, para-dropping whatever), but DON'T still have 200hrs 12 months later/ 24 months later etc etc as you are less employable then than you were when you qualified.....and nobody wanted you then!
4. If you are not working in the industry, consider trying to get employment in an airline whilst you are looking for a flying job.
5. Consider type ratings, but be extremely careful and weigh up in your own mind the real chances of getting a job with it before you part with the money.

As regards point 5, I always recommend trying to do a type rating that has the chance of a job at the end of it (there will be no 'guarantee' of a job, no employer commits to that), but there may well be a strong chance of being taken on if you perform well and have the other necessary skills. You have to see through the marketing hype though as they are all going to tell you what a great chance you have of being taken on. You must 'excel' on the course as well, not just 'pass'. This is where something like the Ryanair scheme is better than paying for a type rating yourself on the open market (bet you never thought you'd hear me say that!)

Obviously the list above has to be re-ordered if you are older, as you might not qualify for direct entry due to age vs experience, or indeed you might already be too old for CTC and of course you can't spend too long being an FI etc etc, but the general order of priority (in my mind) is as listed.

Would I go to Ryanair if I had my time again? Who knows. Maybe I would have been a lot more niaive then and thought the same as many on these pages; I'll do a couple of years and then join a 'decent' employer. My posting was not to bash Ryanair, merely to try to point out that that argument is somewhat flawed as we see more and more employers being forced onto the 'pay for your type rating', lower starting salary bandwaggon in order to compete.

I would probably still go FI, build those hours, try to get some twin time and apply to the likes of BACE who will take you on direct entry with a year or so FI experience.

As I have already said, the whole thing comes down to market forces and the accountants are in the lucky position of having a supply of potential pilots that are;

A. Vast in number
B. So much in debt already that they have to stoop ever lower to try to avoid their investment being wasted.
C. Desperate
D. Want this job more than anything else in the world!

Time will tell, but I think the paid for type rating is here to stay, like it or not as there will always be individuals who will go that extra mile and accept the lower Ts & Cs to get on the ladder. Perhaps, and here's a novel concept, eventually the starting packages and the amount of debt one is expected to get into will see a slow down in the number of those opting to train in the first place, which, coupled to an increased demand for pilots may, just may, improve those packages slightly again. But that's just a theory and maybe a rose tinted spectacle one at that, it's certainly not going to be the case of the coming couple of years.

It all comes down to an individual's choice as to which way to go, but as long as Newbies make those decisions with all the facts then they might make the right decision (or compromise), but understand all the consequences of their actions, that's all I try to help with, not to say 'never pay for a type rating' or anything as blinkered as that.

Good luck to you all.

PP

[G SXTY]

Thanks Pete, that's one of the most lucid and thoughtful posts I've read on here for a long time.

[Number Cruncher]

Second that. Been a lot of tosh on here recently.

Well, if I was fATPL status I would go for them. Its like every industry, you gotta take the ****e at the start and then better yourself over time. And as LST says, it will take more than a revolt at junior level in FR to change the way things are run.

Still, things certainly seem to be on the up and hopefully they'll be even better this time next year when I have the piece of paper! Of course, there are lots of ifs and buts......zzzzzzzzzzzz

[The mole]

PP - good post.
However, I think if you gave any of us unemployed chaps a right hand seat on a 737 for 10k pa we would all take it regardless of the T&C's.
I think you are right about the costs of training. Most wanabees should consider that they will need some kind of SSTR and should budget accordingly.
Did I read that the former USSR/Asia are predicting pilot shortages? Maybe here next. If you're bright enough better to become a doctor/dentist with good pay and good T&C's

[pink flamingo]

Hi you all

I read through this topic and certainly i do appreciate everybody ideas.

Myself personally i have drawn that line therefore i will not even consider paying for a TR nevertheless to join a company such as RyanAir or AirAsia.

I worked for FR for a couple of yrs a while ago and conditions were the worst i have ever seen in my life. But i do understand those of you who have no other desire but get that highly desired flying job and ready to pro*tit*te for that.

For your knowledge I would invite you to have a look at this website (http://www.ryan-be-fair.com/) and get a more indepth idea of RyanAir atmosphere.

I do hope it helps. I am also planning to set up a non profit wannabes union to get some sort of represantion both in the UK and rest of Europe. Please let me know what you think and if you would actually be interested in such organization.

kind regards
PF

[Baron rouge]

Dear Pink Flamingo,

You are so proud to say you will never pay for a rating, you just forgot to mention you have a 737 rating which would allow you to find a job anywhere in the world.

Unfortunately, those desperate to find a job are not as lucky as you are, they either have a useless rating or none at all and they cannot find a job.

So please keep your good advice for yourself.

[pink flamingo]

Dear Baron Rouge

unfortunately this time you did not get it. I never mentioned i was a pilot as in fact i was not.

I worked as Cabin Crew and really worked hard and deprived myself of any kind of pleasure to save money to afford to leave FR and study and train for the ATPL.

I just wanted to give my point of view certainly not wanting neither show off or blame someone.

As I've already mentioned i just wanted to draw everybody's attention to what i believe to be a useful source of information regarding FR working enviroment.

I however, wish you all the best of luck for your career and job hunting. I know exactly what it means as I am living the same experience of most of wannebes "unemployment" with loads of debts and still no idea how to handle it.

My most sincere apologies if I ever let someone think I was a qualified rated pilot.

Kind regards
PF

N.B.: The idea of a wannabes Pilot union is still in my mind and I will indeed take it forward but I may discuss it on a different forum. I now renew the invitation to contact me should someone be interested in partecipating.

[pkos]

There is a sort of union that is forming in Spain, they call themselfs (translated) "Do-not-pay-to-fly". They claim they have about 1000 affiliates, once in a while they post something using web forums and an one online newspaper.

Their email is [email protected] do not hesitate to request some feedback from them. English will not be a problem.

have fun

[Kinetic]

Pilot Pete, I admire your objectivity and balanced perspective, and the same applies to the post of luke sky toddler.

I am a product (if you so wish to call it that) of the Ryan TRSS and am fascinated at some of the one sided opinions.

I found myself in the postion that many of the wannabe's are in and made the decision that the TRSS would be a good step to take and I still believe it was.

I never started flying purely for money, good pensions or free uniform, I appreciate those things are important to all flight crew, myself included, but cannot be the only basis of decision making with less that 200 hours total piston time in a fiercly competetive and often harsh industry.

Having previously been in business management, I did a financial feasibilty into the investment I was about to make in obtaining the type rating and
1/the potential returns, time to command and salary expectations at Ryan over 5 years compared to

2/instructors rating, it's salary, regional prop job, jet job year 4

3/ getting a regional prop job with rating paid for

and every which way Ryanair will give me a far greater net financial gain than either of the other ways.

I agree wholeheartedly with Pilot Pete paying for it is not ideal but it made more sense both financially and otherwise than to simply insist I will not do it on some high moral grounds.

As one contributor posted that you basically do it for free, let me dispell that myth. After your third/fourth day of line training you get half sector pay which is about £850 per month net, two months or so later after passing line check another £800 per month basic. Not a top F/O salary of days gone by but a start and enough to live on and commensurate with experience.

The flipside and caviat is your flying NG's daily,to airfields with often short runways, making NDB approaches, visual approaches, circle to lands at 500'agl, doing 4 sectors a day.

To me, still very much in the foundational stages of my career, the experience and type of flying is priceless and it exceeds the desire to get free uniform or car parking and I absolutely love it. All the captains I have flown with have been very friendly highly professional SOP driven individuals that are helpfull and insightful.

Who knows, Maybe one day in years to come I will want a 2 sector a day job and will be far more interested in paying for my kids college fund and how much I will have to retire on shortly, sitting on square 97 or 98 on the top row of the snakes and ladders board looking down with a vastly different opinion than the ones I hold today, but right now from 200 hours piston to NG with 3 years to command i feel like I rolled a three with my first dice and went straight up the ladder to square 58 missing out the first five rows.

Good luck to all, hopefully a day will come with free type ratings for all, all with jobs and astronmical salaries, until then ????