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quifflegend
14th Oct 2004, 12:30
Hi, sure this will be of benefit to alot of wannabe's out there. I am looking to start training in Florida, somewhere like Naples. I know thier course comes to about £46, 000, add to that the cost of living for a year and housing, ok. Are their any students out there or people who can suggest how much extra will be needed for things like exam fees and skill tests and the like, i just want a ballpark figure really. I'm in the position where i have some money saved up and my parents are going to help out as much as possible so i'm pretty fortunate. Obviosly don't want them to keep on forking out money that they didn't know they had to, so would be grateful if someone could detail what i can expect to be paying for over the next year or so. Any help would be great. Thanks

Send Clowns
15th Oct 2004, 10:16
Any reason you have chosen to fly in Florida, assuming you want a job flying in the UK, considering British training is considered amongst the best in the world (yes, OK, I am in the business so I would say that, but I actually think it is the best)?

quifflegend
15th Oct 2004, 18:16
Too be honest it's just that its cheaper. Sorry i meant $46,000 not pounds, plus, whats nicer than sitting outside in the sun studying ur books when ur not flying. I mean when i completed my ppl, it was so nice just to relax on a recliner outside and top up the tan as well as revising for the exams, think its just the whole experience of it all aswell. I mean ive flown in the U.k and had no problems, i know there will be differences when i come back to fly in our airspace again but i'm willing to learn and the challenge is what makes flying enjoyable. Bit worried about the ATPL's though, lol, sure if i get my head down i'll be ok.

Iceman1976
17th Oct 2004, 11:55
If I was you Id stay in the UK to do your training. 46,000 in America doesnt sound like bargain of the decade either.The quality of training in the UK is far better, and is a well known fact. you can do the whole thing on a modular basis in England for 30,000.
Ive been pricing it up for a while.

PPL 5,000 (or welshpool, 3500!)

IMC 1125

Night Rating 500

ATPL exams 4,000

Hour Building to 100 (50 hours) 3500 70 pp/hr

* CPL, IR, Multi Engine Combined upgrade course 16,000

MCC 2500

Total cost 32,625

The talk of training in this country cost upwards of 50k is cods wallop, you can get a good deal if you shop around.

(* This course can include 100 hours line training on 737 etc, for an additional cost.)

Just shop around here first if i was you!

0-8
19th Oct 2004, 02:31
Hi Iceman,

£32,625 is a fair enough figure, in theory. But I'd be very pleasantly surprised if you could find anyone who has completed a frzn ATPL recently and has paid that little. There are many costs that just keep adding up.

For example if we take the £32,625 and add:

A class one medical: £422*

Another 30 hours of solo time. [You need 100 hours P1 not total time to start the CPL course]. At £70 p/hr: £2100

Say you don't live near your chosen FTO, add the price of accommodation. Lets say £100 per week over the 12 weeks for your CPL/IR: £1200

Then there are things like, transport, food at the airfield, landing/approach fees, license issue fees, etc, etc. They will really add up over the course of a year.

And all this assumes that you do everything in minimum time, with minimum delays due to weather etc. Say you need just 3 extra hours on your 50 hour IR course? That'll probably be an extra £1000, just like that.

I'm not knocking your figures, I'm just trying to point out that the average wannabe will probably end up paying a lot more than they might have first anticipated!

----


*Well that's what it cost me when I booked it a few weeks ago, but it now seems be cheaper?

Keygrip
19th Oct 2004, 03:12
[You need 100 hours P1 not total time to start the CPL course]. 'Fraid that is incorrect Mr 0-8.

You only need 150 hours total time to start the CPL course - not 100 in command.

If you are convinced in what you say, I challenge you to a duel - reference manuals at 40 paces.

<<sorry: edited to correctly spell 150 hours total time - not 100 hours total time as originally mis-typed. Thanks to Linda Mollison for the correction

Check List for the COURSE START is 150 hours total and written exams.

Check list for the sitting the FLIGHT TEST also includes night qualification training completed and Radio Telephony training completed or exempt.>>

Linda Mollison
19th Oct 2004, 07:26
You are required to have 150 hours total time before you start your CPL training.

You are required to have passed all of your ground school exams before you take the CPL skill test.

You are required to have the following before you get your CPL issued:

200 hours total time
100 hours P1
a night rating
a cross country flight of at least 300 nm with stops at two airfields other than the airfield of departure

Hope that clears thing up

Linda

Sally Cinnamon
19th Oct 2004, 08:57
You do NOT need a night qualification to have a CPL issued.

You merely have to meet the requirements for one.

You can save yourself £50 (or whatever the Belgrano charge these days) by never actually having one issued. Ok not a massive saving but better in your pocket than theirs.

LFS
19th Oct 2004, 09:02
Under JAA rules you DO need a night rating to have a CPL issued, if you do not have one before starting a CPL course then 5 hours night training is to be added to the CPL course:

Appendix 1 to JAR FCL 1.160

Sally Cinnamon
19th Oct 2004, 09:07
Not true LFS, How on earth are you expecting to get a night qualification done in the middle of July, for example, you tell me which training organisations are able to do this?

I completed CPL then IR then did 5 hours of night flying, sent it all off and a blue book came back.

LFS
19th Oct 2004, 09:13
Just quoting the rules, Flying training requirements for the CPL:

"Applicants without a night qualification aeroplane shall be given additionally at least 5 hours night flight instruction"

It is difficult during the summer, however I can remember times where we have had to go night flying at 10 o'clock to finish complete a candidates night training.

Also in your original post you stated you do not need a night rating to get a CPL issued and that is certainly not true.

Sally Cinnamon
19th Oct 2004, 09:21
You do NOT need a night qualification to get a CPL issued, merely to meet the REQUIREMENTS for one. There is an important difference there.

I posted just to let people know that it was a way of saving a small amount of money seeing as cost seems to be an important issue for most people. I have never had a night qualification or the old night rating, but I do have a CPL.

LFS
19th Oct 2004, 09:25
I am a little confused by your wording, surely you need to meet the requirements for a CPL to get one issued. If you read both LASORs and JAR-FCL they both state that the APPLICANT for a CPL must have completed 5 hours of night training, including 3 hours dual instruction, 1 hours cross-country flying and at least 5 solo take-offs and full stop landings. Thems the rules.

Sally Cinnamon
19th Oct 2004, 09:42
Yes indeed, an applicant must have completed 5 hours night training, but what's that got to do with having a night qualification ISSUED and therefore having to PAY for one?

LFS
19th Oct 2004, 09:45
right I realise the confusion, i think we are argueing over different things. I thought you were saying you do not need a night qualification (training completed only that is) to have a CPL. My apologies

quifflegend
19th Oct 2004, 10:26
All this fuss over a night qualification, why is it so hard to get some decent opinions on pprune, when there are supposed to be people on here that can help. At the end of the day, this topic was opened to discuss the costs associated with completing an ab initio course, not whether you need to do a night rating to get your cpl issued.

Sally Cinnamon
19th Oct 2004, 11:21
Not trying to cause fuss, and if it saves one person £50 then it was worth posting.

Send Clowns
19th Oct 2004, 11:32
Actually, Quif, it's somewhat relevant, as that goes to the cost of licence issues. You don't need to hold the night rating, so you can save something there.

If you were in the UK the costs of each ATPL exam is £55 (14 exams). The CPL and IR tests are around the £600 mark plus aircraft hire. Licence issue is about £180 for the CPL/IR. In the US it may be different, as you have to cover the cost of having exams sat over there. Medical is an initial £420, then about £90 per annum to keep it current (you may need a renewal - must be valid for CPL skills test and for licence issue).

However these are costs each time. If you fail any then you have to pay again, so don't cut your money too finely.

You also have to think, are you flying to get a tan, or to get a job? I don't know specifically, but how do you think a UK airline will look at a candidate who has not flown in the UK since PPL, when he has a stack who completely trained here? Things are different.

The cost saving is also not that great - you can do the basics in the UK for around the £29,000 mark, even a little less. OK that looks like a £5,000 saving to you - but only if the dollar remains weak or you buy your dollars now. The latter will cost you up to £1200 in interest if you're borrowing the money in the UK! (N.B. don't pay it to the training provider up-front! Search for threads on the issue of paying up-front). Then you have costs for relocation to the States for perhaps a year, and any return visits. That can, in some circumstances, wipe out all the benefits.

Keygrip
19th Oct 2004, 12:05
Was amused by the war of words between Sally C and LFS - but have to agree with both of them.

Whilst Sally is correct in saying that only the night qualification REQUIREMENTS are to be met - and not actually the qualification ISSUE - LFS is correct in that the training MUST be done before CPL skill test.

Sally, you simply "got away with it" - but it is a requirement.

quifflegend
19th Oct 2004, 12:13
Think send clowns offers the most advice, some good points there, thanks alot. Out of curiouslity then, do you know of any schools then, where i could take a modular route and pick up all the required licences. Having already completed my ppl, where could i go from here to begin the next part of my training. Which schools would you say had a good cost to quality ratio. With things like landing fees etc in this country, does it not up costs quite considerably in the long run, as you move through ur ratings?

Send Clowns
19th Oct 2004, 13:42
Personally, if I was starting again, I would look at each module seperately. I can tell you a school to do all of them (I work for one!) but you must visit a few, and a variety. Visit large schools and small, whole-course and single-module providers, UK and, if you can, abroad. They do have good things to offer, can be a good price for certain sections, just be wary, expecially of the IR, as the test must be in a JAA country. Certainly visit Bournemouth as we have a lot of organisations here, a veritable alphabet soup of BCFT, CTC, ETA, EPTA, GTS, STS, PAT, Solent all of whom can help you either with some modules or with the whole course. Maybe visit Bristol and Exeter as well (have you decided between full-time and distance learning groundschool yet?).

For cost:quality ratio I would keep to smaller organisations. They are not as widely known, so have to give something to get people through the doors. Don't assume price gives performance. Some hike their price due to demand just through being well-known. Take marketing peoples' speeches with a pinch of salt. Check on VAT and landing fees - are they included? Don't pay up-front.

Probably your best course is to the Flight Training Show next month, details, fromt he Flyer website:Saturday November 6 2004
Renaissance London Heathrow Hotel, 0930-1700
Doors open 0930 to 1700
Hope to see you there - I'll be on the BCFT stand!

Dude~
19th Oct 2004, 15:52
Iceman, be realistic, where can you get a CPL-IR-ME for £16,000? What about CAA flight test fees at about £650 a pop, plus 3 hrs ME aircraft hire for the tests (min £500), plus CAA license issue fees. None of the quotes I have obtained in the UK ever inculde these extra fees. So thats an extra £2200 for tests and I think £180 for license issue fee. Also what about budgeting for partial passes and retakes?

If you are going to commit to this training and the enormous cost, at least be as accurate and as pessimistic as you can when budgeting. Can you imagining running out of money having just failed an IR flight test?

Iceman1976
19th Oct 2004, 16:47
Listen, the infamous "clive Hughes" said it can be done for 30k!

Ok that was a generalisation, and did not include exam fees, accomodation etc. But if you get a cheap PPl, hour build in florida, your gonna save 3/4 grand stright off!

There is school offering that CPL+IR+ME course, in "flyer" or "pilot" magazine. CPL is 5K, IR 7.5- 9K etc.

Yes well when you get a quote from a school Dude you should ask for an all inclusive price of hire test fees etc.

Im ok though, I live within half an hour of Chester, Liverpool and Manchester airports/ flying schools so accomodation is not required for mois.

Quifflegend, it depends what part of the country u live in.

422 for a class one medical? bargain!

Iceman :cool:

0-8
20th Oct 2004, 06:52
'Fraid that is incorrect Mr 0-8. You only need 150 hours total time to start the CPL course - not 100 in command.

Right you are Mr. Keygrip!

The reason I keep getting the 100 hours P1 figure stuck in my head is that during the CPL/IR course you don't get any P1 time. [Though I think you can log the exam time as p1? Can someone confirm that?]

And as you need 100 hours P1 for license issue, I've always planned on starting the course with 100 P1 hours so I can get the license issued as soon as I finish the course.

EGCC4284
21st Oct 2004, 01:12
Iceman


* CPL, IR, Multi Engine Combined upgrade course 16,000

Were can this be done for that price and is Welshpool open to PPL teaching again????

LFS
21st Oct 2004, 07:37
There is another way to save money on licence issue. If you apply for CPL M/E and IR at the same time you only pay for the CPL.

scameron77
21st Oct 2004, 10:37
I posted this already but one of the moderators changed the title of the thread so it may have got lost in the archives. Reason I'm re-posting it is purely as a cost saving issue, because that is seeming to crop up in this thread.

If flying in California or Florida, the flight schools are not allowed (by state law) to impose any surcharges if you wish to pay be credit card. As you can imagine geting a 2% on top can hit the hip pocket quite a bit especially if you go for a ab-initio course. £600 for a £30k course.

Any trader in either of these two states can offer a reduction to induce the customer to pay by cash, however as I said can't bump up the price.

So gives you the security of cedit card insurance if it all goes tits up, without having to pay for the privilege.

Stephen

Send Clowns
21st Oct 2004, 13:19
Scameron - if you don't pay up-front, there's no risk anyway! You can't lose anything if you pay for your flights after you've been up. All most people risk then is half the cost of the ground course, which is commonly paid in two installments.

scameron77
21st Oct 2004, 16:54
Cheers for that mate, although I assumed that most PPRuNer's would have a degree of nonse. Jesus, I suppose you'll tell us all next that the sun will rise in the East tomorrow and grass is green.

Some schools don't offer that facility, however most of the reputable ones do. The reason for the post was for information, its up for whoever reads it to use as they wish.

Prize for the stating the obvious goes to . . . . .

Send Clowns
21st Oct 2004, 18:10
Unfortunately some of us still lose money when companies go bst :( I lost nearly £2,500. Never realised before committing to a full course (in installments, not all up front, but bad enough) how many companies had gone bust before. Some schools ask for a little up-front and that's fine, but if the school wants the money up front for a reduction then negociate a commitment where they give you the discount but all the money off the last bit, so you are still commited but with nothing to lose!