North Sea Jigsaw

[Return to sender]

jbrereton

Is anyting I've commented on untrue?

Are Bond recruiting for Jigsaw pilots again?

Have some of the co-pilots they've recruited gone elsewhere?

Are current P2's being offered command on jigsaw?

[jbrereton]

Why do you not ask there chief pilot instead of trying to dirty there name with rumour.

[Return to sender]

Because I'm posting on a Professional Pilots RUMOUR network not in the National Archives!

[jbrereton]

You really are a bundle of joy are,nt you. Are you saying that someof the pilots Bond uses for Jigsaw will not be up to the job, nasty implication. Best you remain anonymous.

Bond are recruiting more pilots
Good for them it will keep the likes of you in a job. Be happy.

There’s a rumour that some of their engineers are none to happy either. When have you known an engineer to be happy? You do not know many engineers do you?

Rumour is fine but mischief making is not.

Once again do you work for Bristows?

[angelonawire]

the pay for uk crewies is very competative, it is quite a bit more than u have heard, there are also lots of other benefits on offer which the competitors do not consider a requirment. therefore quite a lot of people are interested in this company, pilots and crewmen alike. it is hiring from a wide range of proffesions for winchmen giving lots of expertise in different fields, the winchops are all ex military. it is a new venture with lots of pessimistic onlookers hoping that it will fall flat on it's face, however with such a dynamic and youthfull yet experienced workforce this company will do very well. a few cases of sour grapes me thinks :{

[Hummingfrog]

Hi JB how is life in retirement?? Missing the old Puma;)

I think you are remembering the "old Bond" the new one seems a little different.

Jigsaw is good for all commercial pilots because it brings new positions to the market place. I would not however be surprised if they have a high turnover of pilots after the initial selection.

This is because while on paper the offshore life looks great. Stable roster, 13 days off each month reality is different once you start doing it. There is great difficulty in getting pilots to volunteer to work offshore once they have experienced it. The extra money is poor - one days overtime onshore brings in the same amount per month. The disruption to one's social/family life is high. Living conditions are poor on the rig etc.

While Jigsaw is "simple" SAR with only the requirement to be capable at day/night wets and decks it will not be easy. If all the kit is working correctly your average line pilot with about 20hrs training should be able to do it. Unfortunately SAR usually happens when everything is against you. Weather, sea conditions and sods law says the doppler unlocks. That is when things can go wrong very quickly if you don't have a sackful of experience to fall back on. So I would be surprised if low time commanders were offered Jigsaw positions. ( if I was rearcrew I would be alarmed::))

I work offshore and have over 9 yrs of RAF SAR exp and due to age:{ have not been head hunted as per the original advert!! I would also not accept the rumoured package offered of only 2 weeks leave. I spend 75% more time away from home than a Puma line pilot why would I accept less leave than him:(

I will follow Jigsaw with interest and I do hope it works as it will be good for everybody. It can't, however, be done on the cheap and I am sure Lord Melchet will do his best:ok:

HF

Guessed who I am (think Puma Course;) )

[winchop]

angelonawire

Check your pm's please...


jbrereton

here here...

[angelonawire]

you have a PM



hummingfrog


i do agree in part about your comments on SAR, however do remember that a vast majority of the actual skill and danger aspect is taken on by the back seat, and any winchop worth his salt could keep a monkey hovering over a moving deck.....

please don't take that as an insult to pilots only some pilots do tend to forget that SAR is a TEAM effort and that you always remain nice and cosy sat in your seat doing a bit of high speed poling, don't take it the wrong way, I take my hat off to a good SAR pilot, the definition of which is usually somebody who has the ability to trust the abilities of his crewmates and not to think he is the only one in the crew that matters

most of the guys hired are ex navy, two weeks on a rig...chicken feed!! we have spent more time than that on the crest of a wave...ahoy me old shippers!

did u guess that i am a backseater???

i love pilots really x x x

[winchop]

Pilots are wonderful, but I couldn't eat a whole one....;)

[angelonawire]

hello down there

[winchop]

It was 35 Deg C down here today, do you think I'll feel the cold up your way?!?:}

angel, check your pm.....

[angelonawire]

windchill was -17 celcius last night and snowing !!

you'll be fine with a few single malts to warm your cockels!, summer time usually up to high twenties, can reach thirties nice dry climate, lots of sheep in shetland to keep ewe warm!!!

[winchop]

Hey, I'm an Aussie, not a Kiwi!!

[Tuckunder]

Humming Frog:

quote:

While Jigsaw is "simple" SAR with only the requirement to be capable at day/night wets and decks it will not be easy. If all the kit is working correctly your average line pilot with about 20hrs training should be able to do it.

I would love to know where 20 hours of training could possibly be enough for even "simple SAR" In my experience of SAR which goes back to 1984, I would never describe any SAR as simple. I personally find it quite difficult and during the night season it has never got any easier in 21 years. However, I do agree with you that experience can extricate you out of the mire when things start to go wrong. Personally, I wish the crews on the Bond contract all the best, but I will always remain wary of a chief pilot that quotes SAR as not Rocket Science. Indeed it is not but it is the most difficult flying on the North Sea. In my case the most difficult flying I have ever done and that includes pointed things with their arse on fire.

Back to your quote, what happens when a fishing vessel is sinking close by the offshore machine on a s....ty winters' night. Is your "simple" SAR crew going to turn it down? I hope not but if they have only 20 hours training, they better had.

Happiness is hovering over a small deck in a force 12!

Tuckunder.

P.S. I forgot to add: the doppler will help get you to the scene but once you commence winching over a deck you might as well turn it off. Manual only I'm afraid.

[running in]

Tuckunder

I couldn't agree more. Anybody who says SAR isn't difficult has never done SAR.

Perhaps that 20 hours was a typo and should read 20 hours per month - but that is after they are trained of course!

RI

[angelonawire]

howdy, i hope you are not stirring things, how is the pole dancing going?

p.s am i doing a good job of stirring it?

[chopperman]

angelonawire

I agree with
windchill was -17 celcius last night and snowing !!
But
summer time usually up to high twenties, can reach thirties nice dry climate
Which part of Aberdeen, Shetland or the North Sea would that be then?

[Hummingfrog]

Tuckunder

I grabbed the figure of 20 hrs out of the air but is it unrealistic? I am talking about experienced pilots not abos. My Seaking conversion and SAR course at Culdrose was 90hrs and this included type conversion, cliff and situation winching, mountain flying, deck landing practice all day and night, along with wets/drums and decks. I estimate less than 20hrs of my 90hrs was on wets and decks.

I had flown SAR in the Wessex but this was really only day VFR.

The term "simple" didn't refer to the act of wet/deck winching but more to the fact they wouldn't be required to do the full range of SAR tasks.

As for the quote by Lord Melchet enough said:(

SAR is a challenging and demanding role which I thoroughly enjoyed but too many people try and attach mystique to it. Running In's comment sums that up. :yuk: Even the RAF didn't give us 20 hrs a month to train with.

As I said in an earlier post I wish them success but it will be a steep learning curve for them and if the wrong people are recruited or selected then it has the recipe for disaster and BP will expect management heads to roll.

HF

(latest offshore rumour is that they will have to be in immersion suits while on shift and take meals in their office;) )

[Night Watchman]

If the wrong people have been recruited then they could completely damage the reputation of existing UK SAR crews.

And would someone please tell me that they haven't recruited a painter and decorator and 2 rampy's as winchmen who will get 1 months training before the project starts? :(

I hope that that is another wind up like the "any winchop worth his salt could keep a monkey hovering over a moving deck.." comment. I take it that was just stirring because I can't believe anyone would be that stupid.

[Tuckunder]

HF,

I appreciate that 20 hours has been plucked out of the air. However, if you think that is enough for a "line pilot" to convert to SAR then you are in cloud cuckoo land. I too did the Culdrose Course and then spent 10 months at a Scottish base (?) before my command. This was as a FJ cross over specifically posted to SAR for a quick command. Your comment about only spending 20 hours on wets and decks during the course is correct however, were you then a capable SAR pilot? I certainly wasn't. The only way that you can become a safe SAR commander is by experiencing very iffy conditions with someone holding your hand. Then when you are let lose you frighten yourself a few times with the rest of the crew still holding your hand until eventually you feel capable of having a look at any situation. This cannot be done in 20 hours.

I agree SAR is challenging and rewarding but I certainly do not imply that it has mystique attached. However, it does require bucketloads of experience to operate safely no matter what your background.

Happy hovering

Tuckunder

[angelonawire]

a reply to you scoffing at my optomistic climatology, my comments were definately not about shetland nor the north sea but inland aberdeenshire is surprisingly warmer than the coast, most summers do reach mid twenties, but yes i do agree thirties is a long shot, and being on the east coast of the uk it does benefit from a drier and warmer climate than the west, (fohn effect), after living in cornwall for six years and expecting lovely weather, while infact it pissed down for most of the time, aberdeenshire's climate is rather pleasant.

anyway if queeny and three past royal generations have relished spending their summers here then who am I to argue?

I eagerly await your amusing retort!

x x x

NIGHT WATCHMAN

I suppose " a monkey" was a bit of an audacious description, I should like to withdraw that and replace with "reasonably competant helicopter pilot"....and what would be so bad about training a painter and decorator to be a winchman, I think the training will be a little more than a month and since most SAR captains are able to fly unassisted into force 12 gales whilst simultaneously winching twenty needy survivors from a pitching vessel into the aircraft and performing open heart surgery....who needs any backseaters

besides we are all just ballast easily replaced by 200lbs of fuel

I hope your over inflated reputation doesn't burst.....x x x

[Hummingfrog]

Tuckunder

You are not comparing like with like. I understand you were a FJ pilot with no helicopter exp before Culdrose. I would not expect you to be ready for a SAR command straight away. The RAF had the same routine. My 1st SAR tour was on the Wessex and I had already done 2 SH tours so could fly the a/c I just had to have some brush up work on hovering over the sea and high cliff winching. Then it was on shift and away.

It is the decision making process which is the hardest to teach. When is it safe to go on a job and when it is unsafe. The first turn back being the hardest.

I hope that the pilot's chosen to go on Jigsaw with no past SAR experience will be experienced N Sea Commanders who will have been used to working in the wx that the N Sea can throw at you.

Angel on a wire.

I thought rearcrew were worth 250lbs of fuel:ok:

HF

[Return to sender]

jbrereton

First you tell me I shouldn't spread rumours and phone the chief pilot and then you say rumours are fine! Make up your mind!

You also suggest that my only interest is putting Bond down. It's not. It's about maintaining a level of professionalism and experience in a difficult job.

The only one who is putting Bond down is angelonawire. The sad thing is he doesn't know it. He is doing more damage to the Bond jigsaw team than anybody else on this thread!

[BHPS]

True Tuckunder may have been on his first tour as a helo pilot and he didn't get his SAR Command straight away (about a year I think), but he did have a lot of airmanship to fall back on, even if it had been flying horrible pointy things with their backsides on fire.

I was also a first tour Sea King pilot (and first tour anything). It was 15 months before I had my SAR command with a total logbook time of 850 hours. The point I am making is that you do not need all those tours or hours under your belt, but you do need a good grounding in your specialist task prior to being a commander. How many of the BOH guys will get decent experience in the job before being a SAR commander? I expect there may be some as I believe that there is at least one ex-RAF SAR commander being employed. How many civil guys have decent Sea King or S61 SAR experience? It will be hard for anyone having only done Day VFR SAR in their past life.

As for training a winchman in 20 hours to do the job? Well, it's been done. The guys have the skills to get someone out of the water, but only at a basic level. What they don't have, which is what military and civil MCA crewmen have, is an awareness of what is going on around them in the aircraft, the ability to know when to talk and when not to, when to help out, etc. That all comes from time in the air and experience. Military crewmen get that before they go anywhere near SAR training.

It will be difficult for them to pick up that experience quickly especially with the limited amount of flying they will do offshore.


Oh and HF, the RAF did give us more than 20 hours to use to train each month, it's just you always sat in your office, so the rest of us used them for you ;)

[angelonawire]

I don't know how you've worked that one out....pot/kettle!
I'm not dissing bond, I'm simply toning down a few pilots ego's

[doorstopper]

Folks, havin been an avid reader of this thread for some time now i felt now was the time for my first post on this subject. I feel that i speak with a level of knowledge clearly lackng in some of the regular contributers. Why? Because i was interviewed for a crewmans position and i am a current SAR operator!! I was offered a job but regretfully had to turn t down due to family reasons. Would you like to know the interview progress? Well here goes.
1. A stringent fitness test.
2. A written exam
3. Two Interviews
4. A swim test involving cas rescue etc

A long and rewarding day built by an operator who was something of an unknown to me untill i turned up. I was able to return to my unit and quash all the daft rumours circulated by gossips.

What would i have had to do for a coastguard interview????
Answers on a postcard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[angelonawire]

turn up! the job's yours!

[Hummingfrog]

BHPS

If I recall correctly we had about 15hrs training per pilot/month made up of:-

1hrs day each for of- wets, drums, cliffs, sits, decks, IF and GH = 7hrs

1hrs night each for each of - wets, drums, cliffs, sits, decks night ccts = 6

Then a quarterly requirement of 2 hrs for Mtn Flying and Nav.

The rearcrew had the same less GH and IF

If you were doing more than this you were very very naughty:ok:

The only reason I was in my office was to make sure you all went night training when Coronation St was on:E

I wonder what monthly training Bond will give the guys to keep current??

HF

[Juan Smore]

angelonawire:
".....it is hiring from a wide range of professions for winchmen....."

As with most things there is usually more than one way to skin a cat and perhaps Bond's approach to crewing Jigsaw will prove adequate for the task.

However, I can't help questioning the wisdom of employing ab-initio winchmen who come from various non-aviation backgrounds to crew a high profile North Sea SAR contract.

If the winchmen employed are already qualified helicopter crewmen then please tell me to shut up. But can anyone in the know (perhaps angelonawire himself) tell us the backgrounds of the Jigsaw winchmen?

[chopperman]

Correct me if I'm wrong (and no doubt someone will), but, wasn't the aim of Jigsaw to use Helicopters to supplement/replace some of the standby vessels that BP use around their platforms? These helicopters to be available should some poor soul fall overboard from a platform or an emergency abandonment be required. I don't recall (again maybe I missed something) that they were ever intended to replace/supplement the military or coastguard rescue crews in any way.
If this is the case, then, while the crews will obviously require some very comprehensive SAR training, it will not need to be quite so extensive as that given to coastguard or military SAR crews.

Chopperman.

[angelonawire]

I wish I was "in the Know", I am simply standing up for the Jigsaw venture

[luvverboy]

I too would like to stick in my ten pennith worth, firstly please do not confuse the ablities of military and coastguard SAR crews, military crewman are medically and physically fit, they are fully medically trained and maintain their currency in this, they are trained in met, air traffic control, navigation and highly aware of flight safety practices, they have comprehensive knowledge of maps and charts, aviation publications and instructional techniques. most of them have usually served in various conflicts overseas which prepares them for the most challenging conditions imaginable. they constantly practice diver drops,cliff winching, confined area landings, underslung loadlifting, navex and pinex this is all on top of the standard decks and drums which the coastguard think is all that is required for SAR, they are constantly overseen by standards to ensure they all sing from the same songsheet and their medical skills are constantly evaluted and kept up to date.

Their counterparts in the coastguard outfits however are either retired military crews intheir mid to late fifties, lots of experience but their physical ability and medical fitness are rather questionable. or they have been trained by bristows from rampies or public transport winchmen/cabin crew, their training comprises of on the job winch training with little or no met, air traffic or nav skills, apparently some of them have done a dicky cours at RAF valley to tick a box, again these guys are not required to pass any fitness or medical exams to get a job, their medical training is by no means as comprehensive as the military yet they claim to have paramedic status.

I am a firm believer that the calibre of people being hired by Bond are far in excess of those employed by bristow. the winchops are aparently all ex mil sar crewmen with age on their side and the winchmen come from highly proffessional backrounds such as hems paramedics and divers etc, if one or two come from rampies or a painter and decorator then i am sure they must have shown potential to pass the strict criteria demanded by bond.

I think bristow and chc need to take a leaf from bonds book!!

personally if I fancied leaving the military then I am quite positive which outfit I'd rather work for.

and as a survivor in the north sea I think I'd rather have a physically fit young paramedic fish me out rather than a grandpa with his colostomy bag getting in the way!

[Juan Smore]

Oh Dear! Any colostomy patients care to reply?

[chopperman]

Luvverboy,
Didn't think I had compared the abilities of Military or Coastguard SAR crews. What I did point out was the original objective of Jigsaw i.e. to replace/supplement the offshore standby boats on BP offshore installations. The safety implications of the loss of these vessels is still being questioned by many who are employed in the North Sea environment, however, that's another story for another time.
I feel sure that Bond will endeavour to hire crews of a suitable competency.
If you should ever consider leaving the military, do your researches very thoroughly before you decide which operator to work for as, believe me, none of them are what they first seem.
Happy SARing and here's hoping you never have to fish me out of the water. :uhoh:
Chopperman:ok:

By the way, how do I tell the difference between Military and Coastguard SAR crews? Is it that the Military wear their underpants outside their survival suits? Sorry, couldn't resist that one. :E

[luvverboy]

what are shell going to do in 3-4 years when god's waiting room at bristow has moved on a few years closer to the pearly gates..the will have to scour the british legion to get a few more younsters to replace the old boys:8

they are already extending a lot of their guys beyond 60 !!!!!

[doorstopper]

I can't fail to notice that after a few home truth's have surfaced you can now hear a pin drop on this thread! Agree with a lot that luvverboy has to say. To people like Night Watchman i say you shouldn't throw stones in glass houses!!!!!!!!

[angelonawire]

did somebody fart and clear the room?....

[running in]

luvverboy

I do not fly for the MCA, but as an informed observer I think you are being very harsh and you are certainly ill informed. MCA crewmen may be older (and wiser) but there again they do not have to run around in gas masks and do war like things. Serving overseas in a war may be jolly good, but is it relevant ? Also I think if you check your facts you will find the level of training is very similar between the MCA and the Services. True the MCA do not do diver drops, but there again neither do the RAF. As far as training goes, the MCA crews probably do more training each month (including wets, cliffs and lots of decks) than service crews as their aircraft are serviceable. You missed FLIR operator off your list of clever things a navy crewman can do- have the navy joined the modern world and fitted FLIR to their SAR Sea Kings yet?

In my experience from the RAF the best crewmen (both SH and SAR) were usually the old Master Aircrew who were past the first flush of youth but had years of experience to fall back on. It is similar people who form the backbone of the MCA crews, and as we regularly see on TV do an excellent job.

Do you think the MCA would accept winch ops trained at "a dicky cours at RAF valley"?

Can you quote an example of when the MCA have failed in a rescue due to old crewmen? Thought not!



RI

[SASless]

Ah, Luvverboy.....you do underestimate old age and treachery! Some of these dinosaurs you are talking about have more time peeing out of a helicopter than you youngun's have flying in them.

Age takes a toll for sure, but it also allows for experience....something the young do not have by mere lack of exposure. The happy compromise might be to have a young fire breathing stud on the dumb end of the line....and the old dog up above that way the best attributes of both can be used.

You can talk about all the qualifications you have chalked up....kind of like merit badges for scouts....I suggest those badges one has pinned to the front of the tunic carry a bit more weight.

The real shame in life is that youth is wasted on the young.

[212man]

"what are shell going to do in 3-4 years when god's waiting room at bristow has moved on a few years closer to the pearly gates..the will have to scour the british legion to get a few more younsters to replace the old boys

they are already extending a lot of their guys beyond 60 !!!!!"

How does this relate to Jigsaw???

[SASless]

Gawd! To think I escaped alive from that waiting room!

212man....next time you all gather for tea....add up the total accident free flying hours amongst that bunch of geriatrics and post the results here. I was the baby with just shy of 10,000 hours....our photographer had over 17,000, the village chief about the same, dare say the vertically challenged one that looks like Oscar the cookie monster had about the same.....probably close on to 100,000 hours safe flying at any given tea break.

[212man]

SASless,
I agree; I just don't see the relevance to BP, Jigsaw or Bond!

[luvverboy]

I think you've been watching too much danger on the beach, those programmes are made up of outtakes of their shift, to make it a little more exciting for the audience, they have edited out them being spoonfed liquidised meals between jobs, at portland the old boys can only manage 12hr shifts before requiring a blood transfusion

you are obviously at the end of your time in the crabs therefore are quite supportive of the bristow help the aged fund as you would probably like a job to see you through to the pearly gates.

as for flir, I am sure the RAF have S.O.Ps for using it, but who has trained the MCA boys in search patterns etc?

the MCA do accept winch...men after a tiddly course at valley or winchops with a year of mil SAR background

"Can you quote an example of when the MCA have failed in a rescue due to old crewmen? Thought not!"......

well I know for a fact.......this is for 212man also, ref relevance to jigsaw.....Bristow used selected crewmen to carry out the trials (which involved recovering 21 survivors out of the sea)..the selected crewmen were handpicked due them being the only ten percent of company crewmen who were physically capable. I would like to see the remaining geriatrics carry out that same evolution

and SASless my point exactly u probably do spend more time peeing out of the cab than I would it is commonly known as incontinence
:ok: :ok:

[angelonawire]

I would just like to say that there are a few youngsters in Bristow, but I think the point we are dicussing is whether or not the guys hired for bond will be up for the job, not to argue who can pee out of the cab the most!!!....

everyone does a good job the RAF,the NAVY and the MCA..I'm sure you can welcome another outfit into the big SAR family

how about we stop arguing about it, and at least give them a fair crack at the whip..jealousy is an ugly thing:yuk:

[mustfly1]

you do not know anything for a fact.
I would continue but you are not worth the time nor energy.

[212man]

luvverboy,

"but who has trained the MCA boys in search patterns etc?"

Dunno, but I guess they have been practising ever since they got the Manston contract in the early '70s with Whirlwinds.


So how do Shell figure again......?

[SASless]

Luvverboy,

Perhaps your eyes deceive you....I referred to the old dino's in the rear of the bus not myself....when I suggested they had a bit more time at this game than some you hold up as being superior. By the way...do the Brits use the Rescue Swimmer as part of the crew or are they merely rope riders?

Now before the screaming starts...I hold my hat off for the SAR crews of all sorts....they just might be looking down at me some cold night....and I would look up to them then just as I do now.

[forwardandright]

This Bond "jigsaw" crack sounds like exiting stuff. I also thought about the age subject of our local flying hero's though. Do these companies have a habit of recruiting only "experienced aircrew" from the military or do guys looking for a career in the business have a look in too?:ugh:

[ropedope]

luvverboy, you are a fantastic wind up merchant, and are fluent in bullsh*t. I only hope you are an equally good aviator.

[forwardandright]

All this so called "banter" is somewhat amusing but what is actually happening now on this subject. Do we actually know who the bond guys are, or is this rumours network just living up to its name-sake?
P.S. Any jobs left!?

[luvverboy]

it all appears very quiet here at present, is this the calm before the storm???am i to expect a serious verbal ass whipping by the seasoned old timers??....

every reply so far has simply been a short admission of defeat

ropedope luvverboy, you are a fantastic wind up merchant, and are fluent in bullsh*t. I only hope you are an equally good aviator.

mustfly1 you do not know anything for a fact.


come on you bristow professional aviators prove me wrong, tell us all what your elaborate backseat training package for trainee winchmen/ winchops consists of
if you boys are so good, then surely it does consist of more than wets, decks and drums..

I am aware that the ex military guys are still good at what they do...however my point as always is still how physically able are they at late 50s - 60 ??....it certainly doesn't look as though they take part in any physical exercise, how does the fat old geezer on "danger on the beach" get into that double lift harness....do you guys have annual medicals???

[Juan Smore]

luvverboy

So what exactly are you getting at? What's your point?

[Captain Catastrophy]

Luvverboy

I wouldn't expect a storm - whilst you may have introduced a couple of discussion points ( albeit not really anything to do with this thread ), the tone of your postings lets you down.

As with any poor fisherman, the fish will treat the bait with contempt:E

[Heliport]

Which one's luvverboy?

http://zogold.net/fraser/art/fishtail.jpg

[todelboy]

Luvverboy

"well I know for a fact.......this is for 212man also, ref relevance to jigsaw.....Bristow used selected crewmen to carry out the trials (which involved recovering 21 survivors out of the sea)..the selected crewmen were handpicked due them being the only ten percent of company crewmen who were physically capable. I would like to see the remaining geriatrics carry out that same evolution"

Those hand picked men as you called them all Volunteered for the Jigsaw project Oh and there ages 50 to 57 not bad for "Old Timers."
These and all of the other MCA crews would still come out and pull u out off the water no matter how much u slag them off they wouldn't see you waiting around for a young man to come down the wire to get you if they did you might be in for a long wait.

One other thing remember your going to get old one day (EVEN YOU) then we'll see how you like to be slagged off.

[Tuckunder]

Luverboy,

I have been away since you incarnated yourself on PPrune. Please note it stands for Professional Pilots Rumour Network. Please look up a site like Thomas the Tank engine we're all grown ups here.

[SASless]

Since Luvverboy or whatever alias he is using now cannot answer my question....can anyone else answer it for me?

In the UK SAR system...are the winchmen trained as Rescue Swimmers and do they routinely enter the water free of the winch wire....and swim to the victim to effect a rescue such as all of our SAR crews do?

The training program for a Rescue Swimmer is a very tough course....physically and mentally. I can see physical fitness being a necessary part of that job and doubt just any 50 year old guy could pass the course.

These Swimmers are very brave men in my view....it takes a lot of heart to jump from a helicopter at night into cold stormy waters to go to the aid of someone else.

[Tuckunder]

SASless:

The MCA/Bristows and the Royal Airforce do not use "free divers" in the water. The Royal Navy do. From the Crabs and MCA standpoint, we have never needed or considered it necessary to qualify in this manner. Obviously the RN have different requirements. The only time that the crabs could have used this technique would have been to recover Dave Bullock in an accident with a downed American pilot in the Wash Danger Area back in the 70s. In this instance the parachute inflated with Dave and the pilot still attached. Sadly Dave was drowned due to the fact he could not physically release himself and was dragged through the waves for miles. Eventually an American helo (Jolly Green I think) used the free diver technique to grab Dave as he went past and collapse the chute. Following on from this accident the J Knife was "invented" which would allow a Winchman in Dave's predicament to cut himself free.

Regards
Tuck

PS Yes I agree free divers are brave but then all winchmen are!

[forwardandright]

I have only ever been involved with one job that needed a surface swimmer. We only decided to use him to recover survivors from a liferaft in a V rough sea state, which was unfortunately empty anyway. After the empty liferaft was sunk, the surface swimmer proved helpful to recover the two bodies that should have been in the liferaft.
I think this also could have been carried out safely, (maybe not as efficiently), just using a winchman connected to the wire though.
This leaves the question of: "do we need divers/swimmers on watch constantly, or just a standby available elsewhere"?

[JerryG]

Tuckunder:
With respect, I think you're wrong. Free swimmers or not - it's an ancient debate and I'm fairly certain that an honestly compiled list of people who have died as a result of not carrying a diver would be horrifyingly long.

In 1978 I scrambled (771) to a light civvy fixed wing in the water and sat in the hover watching four people die just ten feet below the surface. It took about fifteen minutes for the air bubble in the canopy to bleed away.

The DAY before this truly horrible event the last of our divers had left the squadron in order to "fall in line" with the crabs. The day AFTER the event, all our divers came back.

In the '79 Fastnet race I can name quite a number of people who owe their lives to the RN carrying free swimmers. They might not have left the end of the winch wire but they sure as hell needed the oxygen bottles!

[SASless]

Now that brought up a good question....


Diver/Free swimmer on call or on the crew.....rocket science at its best.

The SAR aircraft departs without the swimmer....arrives at the scene to discover a swimmer is needed. Now what....

Seems the one case detailed above explains why having that bit of expertise makes sense to me. One would not wear a Tuxedo and go barefoot.

[ralphmalph]

Very interesting thread!

My Father was on HSU with the RAF in the 80s. He always said that the people wasting the most energy and time were the young guys lacking in experience.

Little did I believe him untill i got a hole at Lec and had a go at being a winchman, safe to say the guy who showed me the error of my ways was an older,bolder winchman.

Regards to all those who do a difficult job

Ralph

[Tuckunder]

Jerry G,

Hey mate if I could have a quid for each time I've been wrong I would be a rich man! However, I did state that the RN had free divers because of their different requirements. In my time of SAR involvement (crab and cg) I am not aware of any "form R" or rescue report where a life has been lost because our winchman were still attached. (the amarican airman in the Wash was already dead). Certainly in our North Sea Ops it has not been necessary. THerefore, why train for it when that training can be better spent? (There is always a financial budget be it the defense or coastguard).

I appreciate that aircraft falling off a deck has a specialist need for crew recovery which would be similar to the sinking civvy fixed wing you mentioned. I also admit I know nothing about "free diver" techniques. (Would love to be educated on this forum). It may well be that Jigsaw, being so "up close and personal" during deck transfers, could require the diver technique. If that is the case why did BP not require it in the trial. I await your response.

[angelonawire]

you did ask old boy, an insight into to the world of the Senior service's brave boys......



SAR divers are non-commissioned aircrew who have completed tours on Anti-Submarine or Commando Squadrons and are fully qualified ships' divers. To be selected as a SAR diver each candidate must successfully complete a 2 day aptitude test, this is then followed by a demanding SAR specialist course before becoming a full time SAR aircrew member.

The course includes diver-drops from heights of 40 feet from an aircraft both day and night with a complete diving kit on, and the final week is spent at Royal Naval Air Station Yeovilton practising rescuing people from the "Dunker". This is a submersible replica of an interior of a helicopter used to train crews to survive and escape from helicopters that have ditched in the sea and subsequently sunk.

SAR divers have the option to go on and train as paramedics. 771 squadron is fortunate enough to have 3 out of the 4 fully trained Royal Naval paramedic SAR divers.

More often than not the diver will be winched down to the casualty especially in the case of land, cliff and coastline rescues. When rescuing people from lilos, lift rafts, or anything that is affected by the downdraft of a hovering aircraft, the diver will jump into the water and swim to the casualty unweighted, that is, with a buoyancy aid, fins, mask and snorkel.
For sinking vessels, crashed aircraft or searching for casualties drowning under the water, the diver will use breathing apparatus which consists of inverted twin 5litre scuba tanks full of compressed air which weigh 41lbs/20kgs. Two sets of tanks are always carried on the aircraft, each one allowing 50 minutes diving time dependent on the depth of the dive, strength of the tide and difficulty of the task involved.
At the extreme the apparatus allows the diver to dive to a safe depth of 30 metres for a maximum time of 18 minutes. Beyond these parameters the diver would either have to adopt a slow stop-go safe return routine to the water's surface, which in the case of an emergency is not acceptable; or following a rapid ascent to the surface, require his quick passage to the decompression chamber located in Plymouth. SAR divers wear a wetsuit all year round, despite the bitter cold seas in winter around the UK, which unlike a dry suit or warmer diving gear, is more flexible in use and much easier to maintain.

it may add a small amount of extra cost to a units budget, but you must admit it is worth it.....


The diver's protective gear and breathing equipment ensure his advantage at sea over anybody else in a marine life saving operation.

http://www.maydaycornwall.co.uk/Navy/SARandDiver.jpg

[JerryG]

Tuckunder:

I'm afraid I don't have any North Sea rig experience or knowledge so I'm really not at all qualified to answer your question. I also have to admit that I haven't read all 22 pages of this thread, just picked up on the last few pages :O

But I would still argue all the way down the line that it's quantifiably better to have a free swimming diver in a rescue chopper than not. It's just not necessarily possible to quantify it from the rescue reports. I'l give you another example:-

In about '80 or '81 another 771 cab went to find Simon Le Bon trapped inside his yacht ("Drum" I think it was called). The free diver went down under the upturned hull, shared his air and dragged the lad out. (Dreams of front row seats disappeared when a Duran Duran tee shirt turned up, as I remember!).

What would have happened if it had been a Crab machine?
(a) somebody else turns up and gets him out because he's lucky that the air has lasted another half hour = report summarises to "rescue was a success"
(b) somebody else turns up and gets the body out half an hour later, in which case the pathologist or coroner is unlikely to have the impetus to look into the comparison between time-of-death and time of helicopter arrival.

My point is that unless one of the helicopter crew has previous experience of working with free divers the report is unlikely to include the phrase ".....and we might have got him out if we'd had a free diver on board". It just doesn't come up on the radar if you've never had the benefit of it.

If anybody currently at 771 has access to the last few years of rescue reports I reckon they would find at least half a dozen lives saved every year in Cornwall alone where you could reasonably conclude that it was a free diver who made the difference. Anybody at 771 watching "Neighbours" right now with half an hour to spare????

P.S. Thanks Angelonawire, nice summary.

[Tuckunder]

Angelonawire/ JerryG

I would not argue for one minute that SAR divers have their place. Yes in an ideal world with unlimited budgets SAR divers would be the gold plated answer. However, practically speaking budgets, be it military, coastguard or BP will have budget holders with accountablity and thus money will be spent thriftilly. I still stand by what I have said there is no rescue where a fatality has occured due to non carriage of a SAR diver that I am aware of. Yes I undersatnd sinking vessels with people trapped inside could benefit but here in the Northern North Sea they do not happen. My only caveat to this is SAR standby for "offshore deck transfers" where I can see a place for a Diver. Sorry Angel it would be a significant extra cost to the budget. I guess NHS budget holders face the same problems of who to treat with the available money.

Happiness is a storm force night hover!

Tuck.

[JerryG]

Tuckunder

I still stand by what I have said there is no rescue where a fatality has occured due to non carriage of a SAR diver that I am aware of.
I've just given you four mate, first hand. Somebody back me up here with some more of your own?

On the other hand, if you're just quoting North Sea, I can believe you. I suppose it's a horses for courses thing - UNTIL it happens, and that's a bit late for the poor test case! :(

But I don't buy the financial argument at all. If you total the cost of a full SAR setup and compare it to the difference between training (and keeping) a wet suit or a dry suit on the end of the wire, what do you get? My guess is that it's considerably less than one percent.

Would one in a hundred rescuees benefit from a free diver? I think they would.

You could of course use the same maths to put a good case for not having SAR.......anywhere........ever, but this is too close to the Gordon Brown school of accountancy for my liking!
:ugh:

Cheers (and good wishes for ALL the boys doing the job in the North Sea, I take my hat off to you, these old bones have moved to Oz!).
JerryG

[No Vote Joe]

If SAR Divers are the gold plated solution to SAR, why is it only RN SAR that use them?

Why aren't all RN winchmen SAR divers?

Why don't the RN train all their winchies to be divers, as I know a lot that are just Air Crewmen?

I was under the impression that the RN SAR diver was a minority, not the majority.

Not pointed, just observational!

[angelonawire]

If SAR Divers are the gold plated solution to SAR

Nobody has said that sar divers are the best option, but free swimmer, or a portion of the SAR diver's skills and most of the kit used apart from maybe the breathing aparatus are of benefit to the SAR operation.

Generally the only time a SAR diver is required to jump with full gear and breathing apparatus is when submerging to get a ditched fast jet jockey out of his cockpit.....however in certain situations, such as upturned vessels or small boats/ dinghys, the rest of his skills and kit such as wet suit, buoyancy aid, fins, mask and snorkel are definately of use. sometimes you cannot get close enough to a small dinghy or liferaft without causing more distress due to the downdraught of the aircraft.

SAR Divers are now a minority in the RN, possibly due to reduced spending etc, however there is usually at least 4 Divers on the squadron and if required for a dedicated diver Job they can usually be called in to assist if not already on shift.

[sargod]

You must have all heard the old joke: - how do you find out if an aircrewman is a SAR Diver? Don't worry he will tell you straight away!!!

The last rescue by a SAR diver on AIR was indeed Simon Le Bon. So in the last 20 odd years they have done ............?

The sooner navy get rid of these ego maniacs the better, and then they can put the saved money into better kit!!

It is only Culdrose that have SAR Divers the other Navy SAR Base at Prestwick which is over 20% busier than Culdrose doesn't seem to need them!!

The history of the SAR diver was to be sat in a helo next to an aircraft-carrier waiting for a fast jet jock to splash in, fast reaction time and all that. Not wishing the worst on anyone but even if a jet went in next to Culdrose there is no way that the pilot will hold his breath for the 6-7minutes at best it would take the cab to flash up and be on scene. Now we can all see why the RAF don't deem it logical to have SAR divers.
:ok:

[angelonawire]

I do agree with your points, but as pointed out in my previous post......
Generally the only time a SAR diver is required to jump with full gear and breathing apparatus is when submerging to get a ditched fast jet jockey out of his cockpit.....however in certain situations, such as upturned vessels or small boats/ dinghys, the rest of his skills and kit such as wet suit, buoyancy aid, fins, mask and snorkel are definately of use. sometimes you cannot get close enough to a small dinghy or liferaft without causing more distress due to the downdraught of the aircraft.

SAR Divers do have a reputation of being egomaniacs etc, but my point is that some of their equipment and skills could be used in a diluted form giving a more adaptable crewman, .....without the ego?...the red tights do look nice!!..hello sailor!!

there are different ways to skin a cat, different units have different ways of doing things....change is a good thing...it doesn't hurt

[No Vote Joe]

On a slightly different tack, I've heard that the RAF/RN winchmen are now having to become state registered paramedics due to a change in the law. Apparently you need to be a registered Paramedic or an EMT, no half way house.

What are the guys at Bristows and Bond doing, or will they lose their medical capabilities?

[doorstopper]

I know that when i was speaking to Bond they intended their crewmen to be medically trained to a high standard and to be registered!! Don't know what Bristow are doing. Maybe Angelonawire can answer that one for us?????

[No Vote Joe]

Spoke to a mate of mine who's on Sea Kings at Boulmer, and he reckons that the RAF guys have invested a lot of time and effort into Paramedic registration, after being advised by the Legal Beagles that to continue giving advanced medical treatment would become illegal. Quite what advanced is, I'm not sure. Still, they've employed some A+E consultant to run their training, and they all should all be registered by July.

I'm sure that if the military have done this, then the civvie guys will need to follow suit, as I'll bet the CG will want their crews to be able to offer the same treatments as their yellow hatted counterparts. Can't see the MCA accepting a loss in capability, or an illegal operation.

[EFATO]

Been away for a bit. What is the latest on JIGSAW. When is it due to start and it what form?

EFATO

[Hummingfrog]

There has been nothing much mentioned offshore except that the first a/c may be based on the Miller. New boats have been built in the far East to support the a/c. No dates as yet. It is all being kept very secret.

HF

[HeliComparator]

I spotted 2 yellow and black SAR-equipped L2s (BP's favourite Jigsaw colour scheme) on the flight line at Marignane recently. My guess is that they will be arriving in Aberdeen within the next month or so.

HC

[212man]

Did you see any BOS stickers on 225s on the production line? ;)

[HeliComparator]

No, and I don't think they have actually ordered any yet. There certainly haven't been any such announcements.

[212man]

Ah, a nods as good as a wink to a blind bat!

I'm in MRS btw, hope we can all meet up with JJ this week. Enjoy the Sunday sun!

[Return to sender]

Any truth in the rumour that the Bond SAR aircraft will now be shuttling passengers around the rigs in addition to their SAR cover duties and the Shetland Isles air ambulance service?

What's next pleasure flights?

Nice one, glad they're taking SAR seriously.

:uhoh:

[Mountainman]

I think you're being rather unkind RTS.

I think survivors will be delighted to be offered a selection of hot and cold drinks and a bag of peanuts on the way up to the helicopter.

On a more serious note (if indeed the rumour is true), how do you mix crew-change shuttling and SAR standby in the same duty period?

Who is going to rescue the "shuttle" aircraft if it has a problem?

What happened to the concept of having a "dedicated" SAR aircraft offshore?

:confused:

[running in]

RTS

Aren't the crews going to be doing line shifts at Aberdeen as well?

How will they stay current mixing public transport and "SAR"?

I bet writing their ops manual is fun as they will be getting a lot of grief from the CAA

RI

[vertalop]

212..What a pity you won't be flying a 225 in your new place of work! Don't forget to drop by for a beer in a neighbouring country when you feel thirsty and find it hard to get in that Sultanate!

[jbrereton]

Aren't the crews going to be doing line shifts at Aberdeen as well?

The Norwegians have been doing this for years using different aircraft and do not have a problem why should BOND.

Who would rescue the occupants if it were shuttling. Well who would rescue the occupants if they were training and had a problem.
or
What if 2 aircrat had a problem at the same time as someone fell off a rig.

There are still rescue craft onboard the standby boats or are we conveniently forgetting this just to make mischief.

There is more than one SAR aircraft and they are faster than the present slow old S61's.

JB

[Night Watchman]

Jbrereton

Yes, you’re right the Bond guys are doing line shifts at Aberdeen which will of course help to keep them current for line flying which is just as well really if the rumours are true.

Unfortunately, it means that they can go 6 weeks without winch training before going back offshore to do SAR and potentially go straight into a rescue situation. Glad I’m not going down the wire!

Your point about who would rescue the SAR aircraft while training is interesting but flawed. You obviously are unaware of what jigsaw was originally about. The whole concept of jigsaw was to provide dedicated SAR offshore for crew change aircraft. Therefore the SAR aircraft would be there for passenger safety only. But if the SAR aircraft is doing shuttling then it’s not dedicated SAR and the passengers are not covered in the event of a ditching of the shuttle aircraft. This was not what the jigsaw concept was originally about. Nor was this how it was sold to the workforce.

Another point of Jigsaw was to do away with individual standby boats and have a larger regional vessel which may not be in the immediate vicinity if the SAR/shuttle aircraft ditches, again delaying any potential rescue.

So we’re left with the other aircraft but who’s to say it’s not doing the Shetland Island air ambulance service at the time. So the ‘old slow’ Coastguard S61’s you slander may be the only thing left.

A great idea has been cut and slashed by the accountants and the offshore workforce is being left with a cheap alternative.

And why is it whenever anyone raises a question about Jigsaw on this thread you accuse them of mischief. Surely this forum is here to discuss these sorts of issues or are you some sort of Bond spin doctor?

[cyclic]

When the "slow, old S61s" are doing other jobs there is no cover at all athe moment. I think an aircraft ditching will take precedence over a patient transfer - you show your ignorance of SAR planning and operations if you think any differently. The SAR captain has to prioritise tasks and that is his/her job. Lets give them a chance before writing off what could provide employment for a lot of aircrew, now and in the future. I wish them the best of luck and hope that the operation is a complete success!

[Night Watchman]

When the "slow, old S61s" are doing other jobs there is no cover at all athe moment. I think an aircraft ditching will take precedence over a patient transfer - you show your ignorance of SAR planning and operations if you think any differently.

You're really missing the point on this one. Jigsaw is about setting a new safety standard offshore. It is about removing the platforms own standby boat and replacing it with a regional support vessel and helicopter back up. If the back up is not there because it's shuttling passengers or half way to Aberdeen on air ambulance work then it is not meeting the concept it was sold on to the offshore workers. Of course any aircraft can be retasked but you can hardly take a pregnant women or a baby in an incubator out to a ditched aircraft. You have to take them to some sort of place of safety first which all takes time – something offshore workers in a ditched aircraft may not have.

The SAR captain has to prioritise tasks and that is his/her job.

Errr... no it isn't. It is the job of the CCC (Command and Control Centre). It is the CCC that will have the all the information available to them to prioritise tasking not a SAR driver who should be concentrating on the job in hand. Are you seriously suggesting that a SAR driver on task is going to collect and review information of another incident and then decide which one to do? Have you considered the possibility that he may have more important and more pressing issues to think about without taking on the combined role of the Coastguard and RCC as well?

[jbrereton]

Unfortunately, it means that they can go 6 weeks without winch training before going back offshore to do SAR and potentially go straight into a rescue situation. Glad I’m not going down the wire!

This is not a true statement you are obviously ill informed.

Just how long do you consider, and who's to say you are correct, to be too long away from the job?

There is another SAR aircraft based at Sumburgh.

No I am not a BOND spin doctor, if so I would have a silly name to hide behind, but I would say you are possibly a Bristows pilot as if you do not know me you do not work for either CHC-Scotia or Bond? So that explains why you are so negative.

I was a member of the OILC union at the time that this was all being decided in the early days so I am hardly ill informed.

The original concept had been for search-and-rescue helicopters and platform-based fast-rescue craft. Regional support ships have been added after discussions with employees.

One new vessel will operate in the central North Sea, a second in the northern sector and a third in the area in between. Each ship is designed to carry two autonomous rescue and recovery craft and two fast-rescue craft. The four ships will replace six standby ships which have a total of 144 crew.

These new arrangements will provide substantially improved capability for offshore search, rescue and recovery over a
wider range of weather and sea state conditions.

I really do not see what your gripe is.

[Hummingfrog]

Hi JB,

"Unfortunately, it means that they can go 6 weeks without winch training before going back offshore to do SAR and potentially go straight into a rescue situation. Glad I’m not going down the wire!

This is not a true statement you are obviously ill informed"

My maths seems to prove it is true as far as rumours of the JIGSAW roster go.

2 weeks off after being offshore + 2 weeks in Aberdeen flying the line + 2 weeks off before going offshore again ( you need this as you do 28 days duty in 15 days offshore) this equals 6 weeks away from winching.

As for how current you need to be I foresee that this will be a problem for the JIGSAW crews as they, I presume, will only get the minimum required training and hardly any real time on SAROPS.

HF

[Night Watchman]

jbrereton

This is not a true statement you are obviously ill informed.

Hummingfrog has answered that one.

No I am not a BOND spin doctor, if so I would have a silly name to hide behind, but I would say you are possibly a Bristows pilot as if you do not know me you do not work for either CHC-Scotia or Bond? So that explains why you are so negative.

Are you saying that you know everyone who currently works for CHC and Bond and their pprune nicknames? Wow, that’s some claim, you must get loads of Christmas cards. Do you really think Bristow pilots are negative?

But on a serious note, some of us using this forum can not be as open as you are. We have to remain anonymous because it is too easy to be labeled as ‘trouble’ by the companies we work for and subsequently side lined. This is where forums such as pprune are so valuable because it allows us to express our opinions without fear of reprisals. If we couldn’t this would be a very boring thread with very guarded postings. Instead we are getting a good open debate over an issue which affects every pilot flying the North Sea.

I was a member of the OILC union at the time that this was all being decided in the early days so I am hardly ill informed.

Well, if you were a member of OILC are you happy now that the ‘dedicated’ SAR aircraft you were promised could be shuttling and used for 3rd party work? Will that happen after discussions with the employees or just go ahead anyway?

One new vessel will operate in the central North Sea, a second in the northern sector and a third in the area in between. The four ships will replace six standby ships which have a total of 144 crew.

You mention the location of three ships and then refer to them as ‘four ships’. Where does the other one come in or is this more spin?

This is about safety offshore and as a current offshore driver I consider myself one of the offshore employees it affects. The original Jigsaw concept appears to have been watered down into a cheap wishy washy version.

If the SAR aircraft are going to be used for public transport inter rig shuttling then how long will it be before they will be flying to Aberdeen with passengers? How long before the regional support vessels will be carrying freight inter rig or elsewhere? Would this be acceptable to you as well?

I support Jigsaw in its original format. What I see now is not an improvement in safety but a reduction. Dedicated SAR seems to have become semi SAR. How long will it be before the SAR aspect of it becomes hardly anything at all?

Why, with oil prices as high as they are can’t we have a decent safety system offshore and why can’t we voice our concerns?

So my answer is this - let’s have Jigsaw offshore but let’s do it properly. In the long term it could affect all of us.

[night dipper]

Please can somebody help me out here.

Where does SAR stands for:

Shuttle and Rescue or Search and Rescue???

Lets be professional and provide a good, quality service to the offshore workers, which IS on standby at all times and not used for all kind of different secundairy taskings. This is what JIGSAW is about, irrespective of the operator.

I know it will be boring and in the short term it doesn't seem to be cost effective, but (hopefully not!) when that day comes.....

Night Dipper

[jbrereton]

One assumes that BP and the Oil unions have been in on the Risk Assessment of this whole JIGSAW setup. If they are happy with the outcome then so should you be as they are the ones it affects the most.

I believe the turnaround for the SAR crews offshore will be one week offshore, one week onshore and one week off or mix up as you will. Again one would assume that the powers that be realise that a pilot who has been away for a period of time would need to go with a current pilot to get refreshed.

I do not know anything about the shuttling plans at present and so cannot comment, but give me time, I do know alot of people.

As regard the blurb on locations and the fourth ship, I do not know as I obtained that from the BP web page and I am asking myself the same question but again give me time and I will find out.

Yes I do get alot of Christmas cards but do not always reply so do not bother sending one.

You are all on about shuttling and what if it has to ditch. Well there are fast rescue craft on the rigs and Standby boats. The aircraft has floats and dinghies. If the aircraft had a problem doing a shuttle then it would have a problem on a rescue mission.

What if while shuttling there were a call out.
I would imagine the shuttling if it is taking place would be over short distances and could drop off any passengers very quickly, quicker in fact than starting up from scratch.

But please carry on as I do like a good discussion as those that have flown with me know.

[Wizzard]

One assumes that BP and the Oil unions have been in on the Risk Assessment of this whole JIGSAW setup. If they are happy with the outcome then so should you be as they are the ones it affects the most.

I believe the turnaround for the SAR crews offshore will be one week offshore, one week onshore and one week off or mix up as you will. Again one would assume that the powers that be realise that a pilot who has been away for a period of time would need to go with a current pilot to get refreshed.

Come on JB, did Bibby learn you nowt - assume nothing!:O

Wiz

[night dipper]

To refresh:

The true definion or meaning of the word ASSUME is:

ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME ;)

Night Dipper

[Night Watchman]

Yes I do get alot of Christmas cards but do not always reply so do not bother sending one.

As with all your other comments you assume that that will happen!

[jbrereton]

I watched the Benny Hill show as well so that is one person who is showing their age.

Its nice to know there are still some miserable buggers on the North Sea.

Don't mention Bibby he still sends shivers down me spine.

Trouble with you lot is you get too much money and time off.

Night Watchman if you knew me you would send me a christmas card I am such a nice person.

GFAB

[AndyJB32]

Hi JB, I've been following the jigsaw post with a mixture of interest and amusement.

Hope life's treating you well.

All the best.

[Wizzard]

Is that a brand new Jigsaw L2 I see at the Bond hanger? - Looks great!:O


Wiz

[winchop]

Anyone on the Bond side taken any photos of the new machines for us yet?
Angelonawire???:cool:

[BHPS]

There's a photo of it here:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/922699/M/

[332mistress]

Nice pic - its going to need better blade ties than those fitted if it is to withstand 55+Kts on the offshore helideck;)

Anybody know what the roster for pilots will be - heard a rumour that some already offered a job have turned it down as roster is poor

332M

[rotor-rooter]

Hmmmm. Sumburgh for Jigsaw?

I hear that Shell are moving back there as well.

Anybody want to buy a cheap hangar in Scatsta? History repeating itself.

[332mistress]

I see that training has commenced in Aberdeen. Anybody know when the start date is for offshore basing?
The Miller now seems to be the rig that will be used though it doesn't have a run - off so the JIGSAW a/c will have to lift to allow beach flights in.
What is the roster going to be - still only 2 weeks leave?

332M

[NorthSeaTiger]

An un-hangared L2 offshore in the wind and Rain ?:sad:

[Hummingfrog]

Don't forget the ice and snow as well:uhoh:

Sharing cabins, night shift - deep joy:E

HF

[roundwego]

Is jigsaw is still going ahead? I had heard a while ago that BP were looking at ways of dropping this project since they sold off much of their NS assets. It is going to cost them an arm and a leg. When I saw Rugsy was no longer going to Bond Offshore, I assumed it was all off. What is the latest??

[Woolf]

roundwego

:p In the words of the famous Prodigy: You're the rumour starter, twisted rumourstarter .... (blaring noise in the background)

[Wizzard]

Roundwego,

The project is very much alive with at least two nice and shiny bumble-bee-esque L2s in place and flying training continuing apace.

The person you mentioned left after a disagreement regarding T&C. I think that they will live to regret losing him along with his long experience of CIVIL SAR.

Wiz

[roundwego]

So who replaced Rugsy??

[JKnife]

Rumour has it that the start of the operation has moved right by at least three weeks due to training problems (i.e. lack of) and aircraft availability.

[coalface]

How can they have problems of lack of a/c? The've had two dedicated jigsaw a/c for weeks and one for months before. Is it lack of skills they are short of?

[BHPS]

I think that they have only had one aircraft recently for training as the new one when delivered was put in the hangar for modifications to bring it up to the full "BP Jigsaw" standard. Don't know how long it all takes, but certainly the first aircraft wasn't seen for a few weeks after it was delivered for the same reason.

As for lack of skills, I wouldn't like to comment, but I did hear that two experienced SAR pilots left because they didn't like the conditions they would be expected to work under (I assume that they were different to those mentioned at initial internview).

[ALANBRISTOW]

A little bit of information is always dangerous boys. Just remember there is a silent partner in this operation, first letter B and second letter P i'll let you figure out the rest, Bond are achieving way beyond the targets set, it is other factors non-aviation related that are causing delays. It may be prudent not to slate your fellow aviators, before checking out facts, now run along back to your little sewing circles and try to be good boys...

[332mistress]

With this quote there may be a whiff of Lord Melchett about this bit of spin;)

"Bond are achieving way beyond the targets set"

332M

[Night Watchman]

for modifications to bring it up to the full "BP Jigsaw" standard

That'll be the passenger seats for the inter field shuttling then! :sad:

[Unusual Attitude]

Not just the a/c side of things slipping back, first of their shiny new "Motherships" arrived in Abz harbour recently and lets just say the MCA have 1 or 2 "concerns".

Sold a pup ? We shall see but I know what most of the industry thinks !!

[jbrereton]

Now that CHC has been awarded the SAR contract for the Coastguard maybe it will give all you people with nothing but time on your hands something else to talk about. yawn!

Get a LIFE!!!.

Merry Christmas

[Night Watchman]

Ahhh..... jbrerton the Bond Spin Doctor and a very Merry Christmas to you.

I think you'll find there is already a very healthy debate going on about the UK SAR contract but why would you want to stop the debate of jigsaw SAR????

Is there something we don't know you'd like to tell us???

The other alternative, if you find all this all too boring, is to ignore the thread completely!!

[Wizzard]

Had your payrise yet Bond guys? Have you caught up with the other side?

Wiz

[jbrereton]

The other alternative, if you find all this all too boring, is to ignore the thread completely!!

Yes I do find this totally boring and will not be back, you can have the last word as you obviously have alot to say.

Get my name right next time thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Happy New Year.

JB

[Night Watchman]

Well jburton I for one will be sorry to see you go! Your 'lets not talk about this subject' postings were quite unique for someone participating on a discussion forum!

NW

[EFATO]

I been out of the country for a bit so not in the loop about JIGSAW but I believe it will go live end of Feb 06, based on the Miller with 6 seats in the back and some captains who have never done Mil or Civil SAR:eek:

[SASless]

Can the crews selected for the job accomplish the tasks required to the standards set forth by the contract?

If the answer is yes.....then what is the problem?

[Blind]

I see that the Jigsaw A/C is allready doing passenger flights. They bought a very unhappy crew back from the Miller last week. Callsign DO2 said he was an L2 but failed to tell the radio op the 4 seats were missing which led to 4 guys getting bumped at the last minute.

[Wizzard]

"failed to tell the radio op the 4 seats were missing"


Must have been an SAR crew, a proper crewchange crew would not have made that mistake - would they?;)

Wiz

[Hummingfrog]

Heard that the JIGSAW aircraft my be taking up residence on the Miller from 21 Feb?
HF

[Jigsaw]

Thats right, one "Bumble Bee" on the Miller and one at the new base in Sumburgh. 12 hours about SAR duty with some CAT included if it doesnt interfere with the primary SAR tasking. 2 weeks on 2 weeks off with some weeks back at ABZ to keep current for CAT. Some non SAR experienced pilots flying with experienced ex-military SAR captains with thousands of flying hours and hundreds of "R" numbers each to their credit. Experienced winch operators from the RN with decades of SAR time between them. Looking forward to the kick off.......:ok:

[nutcracker43]

EFATO

I do believe there were a number of people such as you describe when BHL first got the SAR contract.

NC43

[JIGSPY]

Jigsaw.

What a wonderful piece of spin. So no captain with no previous SAR experience is being rostered for JIGSAW?:confused:

Looking forward to sharing cabins, being couped up in a small office with 4/5 others for your whole shift, 14 days of night shift on the trot, only 2 weeks leave and having to live in the Aberdeen area with the chance of a "real" SAR job approaching zero as it will interfere with what your customer wants which is support for its ummanned intallations. No popping down to the wardroom for R&R when off shift;)

Wonder how many will last offshore when CHC starts recruiting for the SAR S92

[chainblock]

Jigsaw, I never saw the position for PR man advertised in Flight International, well done on the new job!!!!

I believe a few captains have given 6 months notice already. Just after the new FTL was announced.

All the best guys :}

[Hummingfrog]

Jigsaw

Are you or do you know Lord Melchet as you sound just like him :eek:

Great spin though - ;)

HF

[Slotty]

Hi all,

Short clip today (probably tonight as well) on BBC and Grampian (ITV) local news channels about JIGSAW starting at end of the month. It has interviews with BP and offshore union. Total cost of about 130 million pounds for the whole jigsaw of aircraft and vessels.

Just in case anyone is interested, I think those down south can get these channels on SKY????? I don't have it.

Surprised the Guys on this forum who put down Bond/Jigsaw all the time weren't outside with banners complaining. (Just kidding)

Good luck to all who are involved.:ok:

[ppng]

Sooo close Hummingfrog, but this sounds more like "Smithers" to me.
Anyone?

[JKnife]

The Aberdeenshire Press and Journal has this article on the new aircraft:

http://www.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=149212&command=displayContent&sourceNode=150624&contentPK=14055473&folderPk=85744

How capable is the spare aircraft going to be? I thought there were only two SAR AS332L2's with Bond. Is there a third black and yellow machine somewhere or is it a red passenger aircraft being used as a backup? If the latter, does it have all the SAR modes, twin hoists, FLIR, etc., able to be attached or is it just a basic model AS332L2?

This isn't a "stir-it-up" question, just interested in the capabilities of the spare.

[Return to sender]

Interestingly enough the footage used on the TV showing the winching wasn't the Bond crews at all but the Bristow Trials Team in the original JSAR aircraft!!

[doorstopper]

I saw the ITV and BBC news story on this, ITV had footage of the Bond crew with one of the new boats, whilst the BBC one seemed to be a cobbled together version of trials footage and Bond footage!!
Nice looking machines though

[Big Peter]

Does anyone know if the pilots flying the S92 in Norway are still having to wear helmets because of the excessive vibration and noise ?

[Jigsaw]

No no no, im no PR guru but thanks for the complement just saying it as it is chaps. Oh what a nasty lot of professional pilots you are!:D Lord Melchet (Bah!) Spin Doctor (been used before JB) whats all this negativity about JIGSAW?
Soft beds, tasty tucker and a uniform so smart its got a PhD from Cambridge. More than half the year off with a wad of cash to boot. 2 brand new state of the art SAR helicopters with all the kit you ever wanted but the military are too indifferent to provide. Multi Million pound purpose built accommodation including all the essentials such as Plasma screens, SKY TV, DVD library and Broadband internet.
Beats 3 out 2 in, next call at 80 miles MRAS SSR only, to my mind anyway! On the "real" job front JIGSPY - lets all hope they never have to leap into action because fellow aviators like you and i will be in trouble.
It all sounds rather upbeat to me and if CHC want to poach crews theyll have to offer a better deal than the Coastguard contract does at the moment - either way seems the JIGSAW boys are well placed for the planned civilianisation of UK SAR with a foot firmly in the door.
PS believe the standby aircraft is capable of everything but night auto hover so no night IMC ops and therefore no BP flights at night in that sector i would imagine.
More spin or a reality check?
PS think the notice period is less than 6 months CHAINBLOCK.
Back to the sewing circle then!;)

[chainblock]

Yes, I know the notice period is not 6 months but maybe there are a few decent chaps (Captains with NO previous SAR experience) who gave 6 months notice generously in order not to shaft the project.

As for the multi million pound accommodation scheme......would that be those little cottages I flew over yesterday?

Good luck Jigsaw, one day your PR skills may REALLY be needed.

[Jigsaw]

CHAINBLOCK - Not unless you were flying over the Miller Platform thats got the expensive module. The gym, sauna and hot tub fitted new chalets on Sumburgh should soothe the muscles after a hard days SAR OPS:ok:

Non SAR captains going back to crew change you say....hmmmm thats a good rumour, however thought that non SAR Captains were always going to be replaced with a rolling recruitment programme of miliary SAR heros.

Thanks for the good wishes.

[running in]

Jigsaw,

Don't worry, the novelty of living offshore will begin to wane after the first week.

Keep the sheep out of the hot tub in Sumburgh, they will only clog up the pipework!

Good luck

RI

[chainblock]

Chalet, cottage, call it what you want but you'll still be able to hear all the guys in the pub next door having a laugh even over the sound of the bubbles in the bath.

As for CHC poaching pilots. I think it is more like a few of your guys wanting to come back as direct entry captains but think that is a whole different thread and I'm not about to start it.

Jigsaw, your name wouldnt be Tristan would it?

[Justintime80]

Jigsaw "Multi Million pound purpose built accommodation"? yeah right my m8 sent me a picture of them.

Chalet, cottage? is a very posh term for a garden shed

Three little piggies spring to mind when you see them :D Dam there all made of wood still the wind don't blow to strong up there in the Shetland Islands does it.

[Wiretensioner]

State of the art SAR aircraft!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its still a flash Puma that looks very cramped inside. And with all that stuff strapped on it looks more like a SAS Land Rover. What is the sky shout for anyway? Let the the youthful ex-RN winchops tell the inexperienced winchman what to do while he is on the end of the wire. Give me a helicopter with a cabin big enough to move around in up right and not on hands and knees.

[Wizzard]

Cottages??
Does that mean they'll be getting up to a bit of Cottaging in their down time?
"down three!"
"down two!"
"that's it"
"aaahh!"
:O

[Hummingfrog]

As somebody who has spent a fair time offshore may be I can give a few pointers in how to survive.

1. Don't share cabins. Your cabin is the only place where you can get away from everybody else. Little things can blow out of all proportion when offshore and you need your own space.

2. Don't plan any holidays that start either the day you are scheduled to arrive on shore or the day after. The changeover day is not guaranteed and all sorts of things can interfere:- weather on rig/base, either a/c u/s and tasking. The most I have been late is 3 days due to fog.

3. Do be aware of other people's foibles and make allowance for them as again you will be sharing a small office. I have seen disputes over something as simple as the setting on the office thermostat.

4. Understand the pressure your wife/partner is under as if you have kids remember she will be a single mum for 15 days out of 28 and domestic appliances always break down when you are offshore.

5. Accept that the party you were looking forward to is always scheduled for when you are offshore.

6. Unless the Miller food is poor expect to put on a stone or two in weight as meal times are the big social event of what is usually a boring day.

I wish you all the best of luck but it isn't as cushy a number as you may think. I always remeber my first week offshore and thinking "what have I done!!" but I wanted to live away from Aberdeen. If I lived in Aberdeen I doubt I would be offshore, there are too many downsides and the pressure on family life is larger than you may think. You will only get 2 weeks leave as well compared to the 6 weeks that I get so it will be even worse. It should be noted that I also only work 10 days less than a shore based 332 pilot so with your roster you will work more days than a 332 pilot onshore who goes home every night.

As an experienced Ex RAF SAR pilot, with the knowledge of what offshore basing is really like, what would tempt me to do SAR offshore:-

1. At least £100 per day offshore allowance

2. 6 weeks leave

3. Minimum of a single cabin with en-suite, SAT TV, internet and phone.

4. Self fly change over direct to/from Aberdeen.

Once again best of luck

HF

[Ray Stawynch]

Come on lads - are you not all tired with the negative and, frankly, tedious posts published towards what could and should be a worthwhile project. Inexperienced or expert both in the front or back, surely those of you in the SAR world will be well aware of the inherant dangers surrounding the job and therefore empathetic towards crews prepared to get stuck in.

I for one welcome this whole project and, with reference to those cute little Shetland sheep am reminded of the old pusser's expression -

'What goes to sea, stays at sea....'

[Jigsaw10+]

Excuse the login name, had to go 10 up on the PR wagon that is JIGSAW.
Just got of the phone with a old friend. Our boys on JIGSAW are being stuffed.
Answers to what Hummingfrog wrote:
1. At least £100 per day offshore allowance
(TRY £50 on for size)
2. 6 weeks leave
(1week per 6mth cycle)
3. Minimum of a single cabin with en-suite, SAT TV, internet and phone.
(Single room but No Internet or Phone)
4. Self fly change over direct to/from Aberdeen.
(No self fly)
I know this guy from way back and he does not lie.
As HF said Best of luck to them.
I wouldn't want to do it for that, would you?

[freeride]

HF

So you didn't apply for the job then? Careful how you answer...

Life offshore is pretty grim, but the Jigsaw pilots don't go offshore on every rotation and they are back in Aberdeen for three weeks not two, even if they are working for 4 days of that. The leave allocation does sound dire though and I hope for the sake of the industry that it is ammended otherwise there might not be enough pilots left to do the contract!

Another factor is that there is apparently a good mix of personnel and not just a bunch of whinging old SAR boys from the RAF - just kidding:ok:

I wish the boys good luck, and I like you think they will need it!

[Hummingfrog]

freeride

Nope I didn't apply - why should I be careful how I answer:confused: . The advert said they were head-hunting so I just waited for the call;) Afterall I am suitably qualified:- 332 on license, 3 tours of doing SAR including Lossiemouth, know what it is like living offshore but heh ho no call - perhaps I am too old :* Even if they had called I wouldn't have accepted the present terms as they would have meant I would have lost on pay, leave and pension - a no brainer really:p

HF

[freeride]

Fair call HF - it was just a bit of fishing, no underlying motives apart from the RAF bit:p

[bondu]

A little bird tells me that the Bristow pilots who did the trials for Jigsaw were promised that BP would make sure they received £120 per night, more if they had to share cabins! Perhaps some 'creative' accounting going on?:confused:

bondu

[freeride]

Perhaps BP read this forum......:eek:

[Droopystop]

£50 a day offshore? How does it feel to have the lowest per dieum in the North Sea? I was getting twice that and more 10 years ago.

[Big Peter]

I heard that the Bond HR department used the Pprune website to help identify and weed out all whinging pilots in the industry during their selection process. They were obviously spot on with that technique !

:rolleyes: :ok:

[Jigsaw]

Hmmm, no my name is not Tristan although that is a pretty name!:p

Lets see, some interesting comments coming out here.....

£100 a day offshore allowance instead of £50? (Dont BP personnel get £100?)
6 weeks leave a year instead of 2, perhaps a dedicated SAR 2 on 2 off 2 on 3 off cycle?
flying into and crew changing out of Aberdeen instead of missing your expensive holiday?

Some fantastic ideas to attract the right calibre of pilot in the current market. How about a SAR allowance - sort of danger pay to acknowledge the differnt role and skills in the dangerous environment. Why not throw in a flight allowance to sweeten the deal to an airport of your choice.

Well that would certainly attract me im not sure about you guys. That should guarantee the retention of pilots and have more waiting to sign up to the expansion of the project after the initial phase?

Oh well all pie in the sky i suppose.........or is it?

[JIGSPY]

Big P

Bond uses a selection technique based on compliance. This means that a pilot complies with what he is told to do and doesn't ask questions. If you are a Bond pilot you know better than most how it works - overtime payment what's that???

[Justintime80]

Jigsaw

"Why not throw in a flight allowance to sweeten the deal to an airport of your choice" That must be Aberdeen then cos thats where you make em all Live ;)

"Oh well all pie in the sky i suppose.........or is it?" Yep it sure is :)

[JIGSPY]

I hear that Jigsaw has now deployed offshore. How is it going - enjoying the snow.:eek:

[Jigsaw]

Its going just fine thanks for asking JIGSPY. The aircraft are in theatre and have added to the safey of the North Sea Oil industry as recently demonstrated by assisting SHELL to evacuate it's "TERN A" platform when it suffered a fire. The Miller aircraft provided cover to the crew change flights in the recent 60 knot storms that saw many standby vessels unable to do so. This coupled with a generous pay award which has brought the package into line with what many people on this forum would want to do the job means that the project will go from strength to strength as it attracts more oil companies into the project.

Keep an eye on Flight international boys!

[chopperman]

Jigsaw,
Firstly, any info on the Miller aircraft being grounded due weather earlier this month? Also, the unservicability (a hydraulics problem?) which caused it to return to Aberdeen.
Secondly, you say it provided cover during the 60kt storms, excellent, however, if you started a Puma in 60kts on an offshore deck your a braver person than me. Did you shut it down in 60kts, or take it to the beach?
Finally, are you Lord Melchet using a pseudonym? Cause you certainly sound like him.:E
Chopperman.

[Return to sender]

Jigsaw,

Interesting the stuff....

The decks on the North Sea close at 60kts so how much cover were you providing???

The L2 is certified to start in winds up to 55kts so you are potentially operating outside the aircraft limits. Also that limit is 30 deg either side of the nose. What happens when the wind changes direction whilst you are on deck? Any change in direction of more than 30 deg makes the starting limit 30kts. So how do you turn the aircraft on the helideck in those situations and how long does it take?

I heard about the recent mutiny at Bond which caused the pay 'awards', well done guys!! About time you got paid what you were worth.:)

Still two weeks on the Miller, 14 hour days, getting up to untie and move the aircraft for crew change flights (in your 60kt winds), living in small cramped accomodation and having to attend safety drills and the like in your 10 hour rest period makes it all worthwhile.

Enjoy,
RTS

[Droopystop]

......Keep an eye on Flight international boys!

So the rumours that a number of people have handed in their notices are true?

[chopperman]

Jigsaw,
are you Lord Melchet using a pseudonym?
Or are you 'Smithers'?:eek:
Chopperman

[JIGSPY]

Jigsaw

Spin spin and more spin. I suppose you will confirm that the Miller a/c had to go ashore at least twice in the past 2 weeks because of the not very high winds. Both a/c ending up in Sumburgh which messed up our crew change a little!!!

Jigspy

[Justintime80]

A little bird tells me that a black and yellow chopper spent 2 hrs going up and down the north sea looking for a rig to take him during those high winds:)

and as for :-

"The aircraft are in theatre and have added to the safey of the North Sea Oil industry as recently demonstrated by assisting SHELL to evacuate it's "TERN A" platform when it suffered a fire"

Notice you never mentioned the RAF or the Coastguard Helo's who also took part in the incident it must have slipped your mind:hmm:

[freeride]

I think you will find that the Tern down manning went very smoothly and the Jigsaw aircraft integrated with the other assets just like any other SAR helo. I'm sure if I was sitting on a rig that could potentially catch fire, I would be grateful for all the helos I could find. Please also bear in mind that this was a Shell rig and BP were happy to use their helo to help - a very good sign I would say about potential future integration.

Why are you all so negative about the whole project? If there is any potential that this project can expand this can olny be a good thing for the industry. You may not want the job, but there are plenty that do, particularly now the pay is approaching an almost acceptable level for the job.

As for aircraft limits, if you knew anything, you would know that the aircraft actually deployed to Aberdeen where it maintained standby in winds of less than 55 kts for the few crew change flights that were able to continue. I don't have a part in either company before you ask so this is not spin, just honest opinion with the correct facts! :ok:

[chopperman]

Firstly, I'm not having a go at Freeride, I'd just like to pose a question to those in the know. (If Jigsaws' around, please don't give me the standard Bond :yuk: rhetoric).
If there is any potential that this project can expand this can olny be a good thing for the industry.
Quite right, I couldn't agree more, anything that brings jobs to the industry is good news, my concern is that the project is not totally viable. So...
As for aircraft limits, if you knew anything, you would know that the aircraft actually deployed to Aberdeen where it maintained standby in winds of less than 55 kts for the few crew change flights that were able to continue.
Very sensible. As we all know, (well, all us Puma drivers at least), Pumas don't fare well offshore in high winds when they are shutdown. However, can someone tell me what standby cover the Miller has when the aircraft is deployed to Aberdeen? Does one of the Brae standby vessels cover for it by any chance?:rolleyes:
Chopperman.

[Woolf]

Well said Freeride, couldn't agree more!

chopperman:
Quite right, I couldn't agree more, anything that brings jobs to the industry is good news, my concern is that the project is not totally viable. So...
Maybe you don't know enough to make that judgement? Maybe you should let other people worry over viability? Someone who is actually involved in the project and knows the facts e.g BP, Bond, CAA, HSE, UKOOA and the workers Unions? Just a thought ....
By the way I was under the impression the project was called Jigsaw for a reason, maybe you should ask someone to explain the concept .... ?

:)

Woolf

[chopperman]

Woolf,
:eek: Don't get all wound up and defensive about Jigsaw, I'm not trying to decry it at all.
Maybe you should let other people worry over viability? Someone who is actually involved in the project and knows the facts e.g BP, Bond, CAA, HSE, UKOOA and the workers Unions?
Well...I didn't say the project wasn't viable, I said...
I'd just like to pose a question
because,
my concern is that the project is not totally viable
Now I freely admit to not knowing all the facts, which is why I asked...
a question to those in the know
because by asking such questions and, hopefully, getting some sensible answers, I, and perhaps others, will be able to form our own opinions as to the viability of the project.
Geddit?:E
Chopperman.:ok:

[Hummingfrog]

I think that all professional helicopter pilots working in the N Sea welcome the addition of an offshore-based SAR helicopter. The sea states that we sometimes operate in would make rescue by a surface vessel very difficult even if they could find you.

A SAR helicopter has so many advantages over the present standby vessels that I do hope that it is expanded but somehow I doubt it will be as bp is loosing interest in the N Sea as reserves dwindle and the return on capital follows suite.

JIGSAW does have problems though; some are due to the settling in period and the lack of experience amongst the crews in operating an offshore-based a/c. These will disappear as experienced is gained. Others, however, are due to the unsuitability of the 332 as an offshore-based a/c. It is too top heavy and too susceptible to blade sail on start/shutdown. The last time Bond based a 332 offshore they had at least two offshore head changes due to blades assuming the vertical!!

The recent episode of it going ashore for wind (it didn't reach 55kts offshore) will diminish as experience is gained as well as it being sent out to float around looking for a deck to shut down on before the crew ran out of hours. It ended up in Sumburgh.

What I find amusing is Jigsaw's spin on it all.

"The Miller aircraft provided cover to the crew change flights in the recent 60 knot storms that saw many standby vessels unable to do so."

The Miller a/c was forced ashore so it provided cover as the SAR at Lossiemouth does:confused: There were no 60kt winds our wind readout did not even gust to 60kts - in fact, it did not even gust to 55kts so we stayed offshore.

JIGSAW is a good idea it doesn't need the spin so Jigsaw needs to rein in his spin or it will become a laughing stock or even worse a believer in its own spin which is not a good thing to happen in SAR

HF

[Jigsaw]

HUMMINGFROG, you're probably right about the spin but i just can help mixing it up a little on the rumour network to see what the industry thinks. I must admit that it is good to see some excellent debate on JIGSAW although it is well mixed amongst a large amount of poorly informed comment - but it is a rumour network after all!

Thanks to everyone for all the advice about aircraft and helideck limits although my years of military SAR flying did prepare me for analysing the forecast and basing my decisions to comply with said limits. Unfortunatly the wind was actually a steady 58 knots which made helidecks open but unavailable for shutdown, hence the relocation and subsequent north sea platform tour.

Although its actually rather nice out here, i'm looking forward to my 3 weeks off skiing in Canada, then perhaps Hawaii again next - who knows with the money and time off im getting i could do pretty much anything!

[BigNumber]

Evening JIGSAW

You sure have a pretty name!!

[Woolf]

chopperman:
because by asking such questions and, hopefully, getting some sensible answers, I, and perhaps others, will be able to form our own opinions as to the viability of the project.
Geddit?

No not really :}
No one is getting wound up and defensive! I am all for asking questions and having a good debate. Jigsaw has been controversial from the start and it is only natural that issues are raised in this forum. However there seems to be a general "guilty until proven innocent" attitude. If you are interested then why not ask a question to "Those in the know" instead of asking a question and already offering your take on it?

However, can someone tell me what standby cover the Miller has when the aircraft is deployed to Aberdeen?
Does one of the Brae standby vessels cover for it by any chance? :rolleyes:


Sensible answers on a postcard! :ok:

[freeride]

HF

With your insider knowledge of BP's future plans for North Sea production and exploration, I'm suprised you have to lower yourself to flying helicopters ;)

I think you should let BP know before they build their new offices in Dyce - whoops they've already started. Perhaps it's all a tax dodge so Gordon doesn't get another 10%!

My CG sources tell me that they are out on a search at the moment for a missing trawlerman - the second time in as many days that BP have allowed their asset to be used for the good of all on, in and over the North Sea.

Good luck to the Jigsaw boys! :ok:

[Hummingfrog]

Freeride

Having lived and worked on a bp platform for many years you would be surprised what inside knowledge I have picked up ;) - I sat through all the bp presentations to the offshore work force and what you have now is a very scaled back effort compared to what it was going to be.

HF

[No Vote Joe]

It's been a few months since the last post on this thread, the MoD have announced the demise of MilSAR and Jigsaw has had some time to settle in.

So, how's it going?

Has the a/c had the predicted problems operating offshore? Has the perceived lack of experience become a problem? Or have most of the issues been addressed?

Not contentious, just interested!! ;)

[crud12001]

Any news on the status?.Understand that the boats have been delayed again.

How are the guys on the yellow and green birds holding up?

[SAR Bloke]

the MoD have announced the demise of MilSAR

I'm not quite sure where you got that from. Don't disregard MilSAR completely. It may occur in a different form to that available at the moment, but it will exist.

[woolyalan]

A quick search on the old google turned up this:

"Helicopters Replace Boats at Rigs
The plan, called Project Jigsaw, would station four helicopters on separate platforms in the northern, central and southern sectors of the North Sea. Two more helicopters would be land based—one in Aberdeen and the other in East Anglia."

http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/show_mag.cgi?pub=rw&mon=0700&file=07rotorcraft.htm

dunno if this is what crud12001 was refering to, but i tried :)

Wooly

[L'aviateur]

The whole project is a ridiculous cost saving exercise at the risk of lives, trying to take away standby/support ships and replace them with helicopters, my personal opinion is that we need both, not one or the other. The oil companies aren't particularly short of money, so they should be forced increase expenditure on safety around the rigs.

"Already SAR agency sources are beginning to question whether the Super Puma can handle the mission, given its known operational constraints on helidecks in severe weather."

[GJB]

L'aviateur - it is a BP project not an "oil companies" project.

[No Vote Joe]

I'm not quite sure where you got that from. Don't disregard MilSAR completely. It may occur in a different form to that available at the moment, but it will exist.

From the Light Blue Horses Mouth, so to speak!!

You are quite right, SB, it will be a different form, and with a drastically smaller foot print than it has at present. So it may be there, but not a lot of it.

MilSAR will probably be only a couple of flights and used as a rest tour from SH. Most of the chat at the mo from experienced MilSAR crews are not about "If" but "When", and that also appplies to their discusssions on when to submit their CV's to prospective employers!!! ;)

Still, we digress, and back to my previous post. How's it going?

Heard on the grapevine that a couple of pretty experienced RAFSAR pilots have just been recruited, and that the rearcrew are being medically trained by the RAF. Any flesh to add to the bones?

[Jigsaw10+]

The whole project is a ridiculous cost saving exercise at the risk of lives,
How right you are! It is such a cost saving exercise that the two SAR helicopters are being made mix it with commercial shuttle operations, sometimes the two disciplines clash. I have seen the JIGSAW aircraft on the Unity/Bravo a few times now. Who provides the SAR cover when the aircraft is down southern area.:ugh:
"Already SAR agency sources are beginning to question whether the Super Puma can handle the mission, given its known operational constraints on helidecks in severe weather."
They don't seem to be having a problem with the aircraft in bad weather, it's surprising everyone.:ok:

[crud12001]

All seems to have gone silent!.

anybody any news on whats happening?are all the ac on station and all the big boats working?.

Crud12001

[Woolf]

Not sure about the boats but I did hear Rescue Bond 1 return to Aberdeen today dropping off a casualty at the Airport. Looks like they have been operating for a while now.

[atcomarkingtime]

Bond One/Two have been working for ages now...jolly good job they do too!! I note that CHC now have an AS365 here in Aberdeen again after the long farewell to the dauphin for the transit routes in the central north sea after the Bond a/c did the routes for a while.

[332mistress]

atco

I think the quote "after the Bond a/c did the routes for a while" is not quite accurate. The reason the 365N is back in town is that the Jigsaw aircraft was so unreliable in supporting bp that they wanted the 365N back ASAP but no a/c was available until now and a Norwegian registered/CHC crewed 365N2 is being used as back up.

I also hear that the Jigsaw a/c spends a fair amount of time in Aberdeen due to weather etc.

332M

[Jisaw ARRC Crew]

Sorry for the intrusion, not being a pilot, but I thought that some input from me was needed to relieve the pessamists of the Jigsaw Project from any doubt as to the integrity and stability of the project itself.

I work on one of the RSV's, as an ARRC crewmember. I have done operations with the helicopter a few times now, all of them have run like clockwork. :D

Last time we did exercises with the Miller SAR aircraft was a week or so ago, the conditions were not perfect, and the wind was gusting 30+ Kts, but the pilot was incredibly able and skilled as was the winch operator, an the actual winch man. We safely landed the Winchman (Alan I think his name was) 3 or for times, then completed hi-line exercises and stretcher transfers with the SAR Helo, all operations went very smoothly in seas exceeding 3.5 - 4 metres.

This to me tells me that even in more extreme weather, the SAR Helo's, ARRC's and the RSV's combined can offer medical and Evacuation cover second to none, each ARRC has the capacity to evac 80+ personnel (top end) from a platform, and each ARRC is better equipt than a NHS Ambulance ashore, and we have the facilities onboard to offer a high degree of Primary, and Secondary Medical Aid.

One thing I did have concerns with at first was the Lauching Systems for the ARRC's but after a year or so of modifications, and uprades, these seem to now be Ironed out. :ok:

I hope that we can publicly generate awareness for the work that we in the marine sector, and yourselves in the Aviation sector can be proud of, and I honestly believe that this is the way forward for offshore safety regimes.

For people involved in Jigsaw, I hope that we can build on our relationships and make this a diverse, rewarding and proactive Project.

I would like to finish this article for Mr B Walker, who wrote to the Numast saying "The whole project and the concept is a joke and I quote " If I ever had the misfortune of falling in the water, leave me to make my own way home," Well Mr Walker, I'm sure you would change your mind when you are actually in the water freezing your balls off, and we come along to rescue you, you will appriciate why we are actually serving here in the North Sea, and more to the point, I am sure your family will appriciate you going home safe, Rather than in a Wooden Jacket.

Please reply with your thoughts on this. :D

[crud12001]

What a load of spin!!



``Last time we did exercises with the Miller SAR aircraft was a week or so ago, the conditions were not perfect, and the wind was gusting 30+ Kts, but the pilot was incredibly able and skilled as was the winch operator, an the actual winch man. We safely landed the Winchman (Alan I think his name was) 3 or for times, then completed hi-line exercises and stretcher transfers with the SAR Helo, all operations went very smoothly in seas exceeding 3.5 - 4 metres.``

Dont think you launched an ARRC for this,it was with the Mother ship.If so you broke your own procedures!!.

Also 80 people in an ARRC.....i dont think so.Try 12 + crew

[Jisaw ARRC Crew]

I dont know if we are working the same project, but you seem to be getting your self mixed up with god only knows what!

a) The operation was planned and the ARRC was already in the water, before the weather started to pick up, maybe 3.5 - 4m swell was a slight overexaggeration, but it was easily averaging 2.5 - 3metres.

b) The operations was indeed with the ARRC, and not the Mother ship, I should know, I was on the deck of the ARRC.

c) The ARRC seats 21 survivors, plus 6 crew, but we have the capablility, in emergency evac situations, the overload up to the capacity of about 7 Tonnes Gross weight in personnel, so you work it out, that in my book is 80 ish average size men.

d) I am interested to know how you know what our procedures are in the marine sector, and if you was aware of every one of our procedures then surely you must also note that the ARRC is a "designated place of safety" in its own right, and to be lauched in excessive weather is all well and good, its the recovery that would be a problem in sea exceeding 5+ metres, but that is why we are fitted with the latest navigation systems, communication systems, and medical equipment so if the situation should arise, we have the capacity to make it back to the nearest landfall.

Its people like you Crud that demean the project, and before you go blabbering on again, please be sure to actually know what it is you are waffling on about, because in this subject it is obvious to me that you dont. :oh: :=

[SARCO]

80 sounds about right. With the ARRC being roughly the size of a Severn Class RNLI lifeboat they can accomodate a maximum of over 130 not all strapped in and all over the deck but when you need to get people off that's the way to do it.

[shephem1]

I was lucky enough to be one of the bp staff to be selected for winch-man training at the very outset of the Forties SAR unit and remained with them through to 1988. The initial contract for SAR support was with Bristow’s and the aircraft used was the S61N. The rational being that there was more often than not a crew change flight either on it’s way out to or on it’s way back from the Forties field. Forties Bravo and Delta were the SAR ‘bases’ where the SAR equipment (including winch), winch-op (a Bristow’s man) and the bp winch-man resided.
It was not till much later on that the contract went to Bond and the SAR aircraft became the Aeroespacial Dauphin.

[Jigsaw10+]

Helllllllllooooooo! Dauphin?
I think it's a little bit bigger than a Dauphin.:ugh:

[Brom]

Hellllloooooo! History lesson!
'Shephem 1' is referring to the early 1990's when the Forties SAR contract was moved from Bristow to Bond who covered it with the infield Dauphin. :ok:
However, you are correct in stating that the Jigsaw Puma is bigger than a Dauphin, well noticed. :E

[Twisted Rigging]

Aaah, nostalgia isn't what it used to be!!;)

I'm sure that the first dauphin used for SAR in the forties was the 365C, in the mid 80's.

[reachfor]

Glad to hear it, bet you were paid more than the £85 rig pay that the current Jigsaw get !!!! :ok:

[crud12001]

Any one shed some light on Jigsaw.....a few rumours going about that it may not be here for much longer???

CRUD12001

[cyclic]

Rumours going around that Jigsaw will be ditched soon.Apparantly they have a problem with the Ships and the ARRK's? The mother Ships are just going in and out of Aberdeen with cargo.Non of them have the big boats fitted.

How can they provide a rescue service with out them?

You heard anything?

You posted this in Sep 2006!

[Ray Stawynch]

What you heard, Crud?
Or is this a fishing experiment. Again.....:E

[Heliman74]

Fishing... definitely. You won't hear anything here about it. All Bond pilots are 'gagged' anyway and banned frommposting on this site for fear of being sacked. And before anyone says that they can't do that, Bond don't care. They will.

Good Luck on finding your info!

[PANews]

The new [well July] tender options for continuing the Coastguard SAR provision suggests that the current contract could be split between England and Wales and Scotland.
The contract will be for the provision of the ‘Gap Search and Rescue Helicopter Service’ on behalf of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) to cover all MCA coverage areas. This service will require an all-weather SAR Helicopter Service able to operate throughout the UK in the maritime environment and with limited overland capability. The service is currently based at Portland, Lee-on-the-Solent, Sumburgh and Stornoway, operates 365 days a year on a 24hr basis (apart from Portland which operates on a 12hr basis (daytime operation). Service delivery shall continue from Lee-on-the-Solent and Portland. Bidders can consider alternative locations for service delivery on the Isle of Lewis and The Shetland Islands.

Might Jigsaw fit into this as a cost sharing measure?

[Tallsar]

I sympathise with your logic... However, Jigsaw is a privately funded service sponsored by BP as a supposed substitute for some of the rescue facility offered by the rig support ships. It was originally to be much more extensive at one point but withered after much political and union dissent within the oil industry. Then the money ran out.

It would be nice to think that some sense would prevail along the lines you suggest. To most it seems a waste that 2 very capable SAR helos sit on standby at the same base , to do the same job - and neither is exactly overworked operationally. However thats politics for you... and the divide between public and private. I suspect the GAP contract of which you post is not allowing such a sensible compromise.... It certainly wasn't considered previously for the SAR-H contract either.

[squirrelht1]

NIGHT WATCHMAN your post has come back to haunt you from 2nd March 2005!!

People have long and exacting memories of posts like yours for being so one sided and not open to change....

The Painter and Decorator you refer to is a very well respected, capable, consummate professional who has just been awarded the Billy Deakin award for services to SAR. ( If you know your stuff? You'll know its significance!)

So tell me, did the Company get his selection wrong? Did the board who select these worthy candidates get it wrong? No, your short sightedness to even consider change back then perhaps is the issue......

......Just thought your skeleton should catch you up.. Have a nice day:-)

[212man]

Well done!

The last chap to be given that award just got a George Medal!

[2papabravo]

@squirrelht1 :ok:

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Nf stable]

I concur....

:D:D:D:D