¿Es Espanol peligroso?

[Squawk7777]

there is a little story behind this. In a separate thread I am discussing the fact/myths etc. about dual-language airspace.

Many times it has been posted that dual language ATC transmissions endanger operations, simply because transmissions in a language other than English cannot be understood by a foreign aircrew.

Before I post my experience and opinion, I'd like to hear from you. What do you think about dual-language use for R/T? How do you feel as a pilot who knows both languages and how do you feel if you fly into airspace where a different language is used (Brazil?). Is it really dangerous? Would it be easier if all transmissions would be in English? Plus, are there different R/T terminologies within Spanish-spoken airspaces?

Thanks,

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[CortaVento]

There is no doubt about the benefit of using a common language. I should say, however, that even in US I experienced difficulties as many controllers speak "locally" instead of using ICAO phraseology, or even use a very fast R/T which is a challenge for a non english native.
In the last few years CAA from many countries in S.A. are making an effort to bring ATC communications to an english standard, but this means costs, etc, etc.
Please tell us about your experience and opinion.

[varigflier]

I think it's dangerous for the people who don't speak the other language. It should all be in one language(english) to enhance safety. At one time while flying in Brazil, there were several traffic calls made to Brazilian airlines about a United flight but the controller never said anything in english to the United flight. The Brazilian airlines knew what was happening but the United flight had no idea what was going on. At no time was there a danger of collision with the United or the other flights but the crew of that flight never knew what was going on. I think for the purposes of safety and situational awareness, ieverything should be in one language.

[Panama Jack]

This is a topic that I occasionally see recur in Canada, where French and English are simultaneously used in some regions. Unfortunately, often these topics degrade to a point where jingonistic or racial superiority undercurrents are evident.

I will agree with the fundamental assessment of uniform standards-- one language, one system of measurement, one set of regulations, etc. The "reality" however is different, and I see a greater problem than that of, for example, Latin American pilots speaking Spanish to ATC.

For example, I have flown into some smaller airfields where the level of English on the part of local controllers was either poor or nil. Sometimes, it was limited to the phrase "clear to land." As I understand it, this is a major concern of ICAO and they are making a noble effort to set standards.

Making a unilateral statement of intent and putting it into practice, however, are two different things. In cash strapped countries, like those in our regions, a good question is "who will pay for this?" While one might suggest that the short term solution is to replace non-English speaking crews with those that speak English, this can create a separate problem if the English speaking crews can not converse with the locals.

So yes, there is an ideal, but I feel that the inability of domestic flying aircrews to speak English is less of a problem than the lack of English ability in certain ATC installations.

[Chess Mate]

Sorry S7777, you did a BIG mistake, espaÑol, is NOT DANGEROUS at all. Try to think it in the other way around. Is english dangerous? Everybody speaks spanish in South America but Brazil. So I easily find that to speak english in the region is DANGEROUS !!! Is it no easier to teach spanish to 50 crews than english to thousands of ATC's?

Sorry for been sarcastic. I believe that the ideal situation is that everybody speaks the same language, whichever, wherever is controlling/flying in the world.
This is a egg & chicken problem. Including the problem of who is gonna pay for..

There are different uses of english R/T in the world even in english speaker countries, regionalisms, different idioms, etc.
Even the accents (sorry guys this is not an agression but fact!) are so different that in one place you can feel like a "fish in the water" and in other place been struggling to understand even if you are an english native speaker ! This is no exclusive to english, it happens in ALL the languages !

This kind of things still sounds to me like IMPERIALISM !

[Glonass]

Sorry Chess Mate, you made a HUGE mistake: Everybody speaks spanish in South Amercia but Brazil is incorrect and I am not been sarcastic. ;)

South America comprises 12 nations. Spanish is spoken almost in all of them. Nevertheless, (according to the CIA world factbook) the languages spoken in Guyana are: English, Amerindian dialects, Creole, Hindi, Urdu (no mention of Spanish). In Suriname the languages are: Dutch (official), English (widely spoken), Sranang Tongo (Surinamese, sometimes called Taki-Taki, is native language of Creoles and much of the younger population and is lingua franca among others), Hindustani (a dialect of Hindi), Javanese (no mention of Spanish). In French Guiana, an overseas department of France, the language is French (...) and finally, although technically not in South America, the British dependency of the Falkland Islands where the language is, shall I say, British (...).

I apologize if my post is per say not a contribution to the original post but I had to say it.

Cheers mate :ok:

[luisde8cd]

South America comprises 12 nations. Spanish is spoken almost in all of them. Nevertheless, (according to the CIA world factbook) the languages spoken in Guyana are: English, Amerindian dialects, Creole, Hindi, Urdu (no mention of Spanish). In Suriname the languages are: Dutch (official), English (widely spoken), Sranang Tongo (Surinamese, sometimes called Taki-Taki, is native language of Creoles and much of the younger population and is lingua franca among others), Hindustani (a dialect of Hindi), Javanese (no mention of Spanish). In French Guiana, an overseas department of France, the language is French (...) and finally, although technically not in South America, the British dependency of the Falkland Islands where the language is, shall I say, British (...).

Hmmm quit bashing the guy. He made a point... I mean, if you do some math, you will find out that the combined population of those countries is around 1.3 million, tha barely surpasses Barquisimeto population (Venezuela 4th largest city). South America is clearly dominated by Spanish, then Portuguese. 1.3 million is too small to make a difference. No offense to the people of those little countries!

[Panama Jack]

Good point luisde8cd. I mean, in that case how many languages are spoken in the United States (even after discounting the immigrant ethnic languages).

[Glonass]

Indeed! So perhaps one outta be more careful when making such statements as "everybody speaks Spanish in S.A. (but Brazil)" and have a little bit more consideration for minorities...

...but then that's only IMHO and this ain't the subject of this thread.

10-7 :ok:

[Panama Jack]

Perhaps it´s high time to petition ICAO to adopt Esperanto as the international aviation language.

All in favor, raise your hands and say Jes!

Esperanto website (http://www.langmaker.com/db/mdl_esperanto.htm)

[Captain Stable]

Blimey, that takes me back! I started learning Esperanto at University, never finished the course, never used it since. All I can say now is "Un, du, tri, qvar, qvin, ses, sep, ok, nau, dek..." and I'm not sure about all of that! :ooh: :\

[Panama Jack]

I think that´s an endorsement fellows. :O

By decree from Captain Stable, English and Esperanto are the permitted languages on The Caribbean and Latin America Forum. :p

[Captain Stable]

Errr... I don't think that's quite what I said! :confused:

I speak even less Esperanto than Spanish - at least I can order a couple of beers in Spanish! (Paying for them is when I start to have trouble - but then, don't we all? :E )

[brazilianpilot]

HI EVERYBODY! HELLO FROM BRAZIL!

I'M AN ATP PILOT IN BRAZIL AND I FLY AIRBUSES...I THINK FROM ALL THAT YOU ALL SAID....AS A PRO POINT OF VIEW, THE LANGUAGE SHOULD BE ENGLISH. AND I THINK THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD PAY FOR ALL CONTROLLERS TO LEARN IT...BECAUSE IF YOU FLY FROM LATIN AND SOUTH AMERICA YOU WILL BE SURPRISED HOW THEY DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH AT ALL...ONE THING THAT YOU ASK AND THEY WON'T ANSWER BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW....I MYSELF USED TO HELP LOTS OF TIMES THE FOREIGN CREWS TO TRANSLATE WHAT THEY WANT ON THE RADIO...IT'S AMAZING...SO WHEN FLYING OVER THOSE PLACES BE ADVISED...LANGUAGE IS A PROBLEM.

[Captain Stable]

Hi everybody! Hello from Brazil!

I'm an ATP pilot in brazil and I fly Airbuses... I think from all that you all said.... As a pro point of view, the language should be English. And I think the government should pay for all controllers to learn it... Because if you fly from Latin and South America you will be surprised how they don't speak English at all... One thing that you ask and they won't answer because they don't know.... I myself used to help lots of times the foreign crews to translate what they want on the radio... It's amazing... So when flying over those places be advised...language is a problem.CAPS LOCK OFF please :ok:

[brazilianpilot]

hey Cap. Stable

sorry I didn't know it...tanks for your advise.

[Chess Mate]

To everybody:

as far as this thread is towards spoken languages in ATC, my reference was in this regard. I say INDEED, all the SA countries speaks spanish in terms of ATC, but Brazil. (What minorities has f
:mad: to do with it?)

Just as a note and I won't come back on this topic. Falklands Islands is a colony of the UK in SA and they are GEOGRAPHICALLY considered part of SA, but they are not a country, they do not exchange any kind of products with the rest of SA, and as far as I know the Royal Navy fly from Ascension Is. or via SBGL or SBGR Do you know any regular carrier going to EGYP or SFAL? (Despite the intentions of LAN-Chile?)
Well, let me go further, IN FACT, the Guyanas (the three of them) are not POLITICALLY members of SA.
There is any one willing to say that because Gibraltar Rock IS PART of Spain, people speak english in Spain? :yuk:

In other words: Guyanas and Falklands(Malvinas) (Does any one want to include South Georgias or Sandwich Is?) are phisically located in SA but they have no political relationship of any kind with SA)

Note 2: ->Glonass _ Why don't you try for the next time to found a more suitable source of info? CIA said (in loud voice) that Irak had massive destruction weapons...(?)
The high comissionate of the UN said there weren't even before USA invaded Irak... come on man! take care on who r u trust on in !!

Any way...we must go back to the MAIN TOPIC, if any of u want to discuss this, send-me an em- .I really like it but has nothing to do with this thread, forum.

___________________________________________________

I support the words of P J , the ideal is a UTOPIA, it's fine for me. I think we have to be realistic first of all.

[Captain Stable]

Yes, the Falkland Islands (Las Islas Malvinas) are English-speaking. But so also is almost all of the Caribbean, with the exception of Aruba, S. Maarten, Guadeloupe, Martinique and a few others too insignificant to mention (such as Marie Galante).

Incidentally, there are quite a few Welsh speakers in Chile (Patagonia).

The problem is not with Spanish per se. The problem is with a second language in any region. It would be no problem in, say, Siberia, if all pilots spoke only Russian and controllers spoke only Russian. But as soon as a non-Russian speaker turns up, there is a problem.

The problem with English in the Caribbean / Latin American region is that there are a significant number of flights from English-speaking areas such as the USA. Norte Americano pilots are not known for their ability to keep to standard phraseology which is all that many controllers can manage - this was a contributory factor in the Tenerife crash.

English is not the most common first language in the world. But it is the most common first and/or second language in the world. Hence its widespread useage. This should not be seen as denigrating those who do not speak it. It doesn't mean they are stupid or ignorant or lazy or uneducated. But I feel that the use of Aeronautical English should be a prerequisite in many areas of the world.

This is not from an arrogant, jingoistic viewpoint - merely from a pragmatic approach to aviation safety.

That, however, is purely my opinion. Please feel free to disagree and argue! :ok:

[Squawk7777]

Chess Mate, no reason for you to get personal because I didn't use the tilde. My crash pad computer's keyboard does not have it. Since you're so picky I'd recommend in reviewing the difference between "being" and "been" in English.

I have had many discussions here on pprune about this subject. I find some replies interesting. I personally support dual-language use for ATC. It does not make the pilot feel safer who does not speak the local language, but I think that it is overall safer, provided the controller masters both languages.

Now I am waiting for Jerricho's comment :rolleyes:

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P.S.: Capt Stable, check your PM please.