proposed 'copilot' licence 2006

[kebab kid]

anyone know whats the latest regarding that new airline licence that was talked about here a while back??
last i heard was that EASA wanted to introduce it in 2006, but were still writing the small print at the time.

it was going to be mainly simulator based i believe, with a little time on spamcans too and lead to a licence specifically for right hand seat heavies

perhaps they'll make an integrated one and a modular one, then everyone can have an interesting debate <yawn>

apologies if this question has been done recently, havent surfed for a while!

cheers, kk

[parkfell]

Whilst it may well be possible for someone to gain a licence, they could hardly be described as someone who has been exposed to the necessary enviroment.

Just how airmanship can be taught in this mainly artifical enviroment is difficult to see.

Might suit the beancounters, but I think it is fatally flawed as a training scheme, and comes under the heading of false economy.

Only the likes of BA use to take 200+ hour students straight onto jets. The insurance companies would need to be convinced that this had merit.

[expedite_climb]

Outside of these problems, I believe the idea of a two stage licence is a good one. It'd be going back to how it used to be, and yes in the long term you'd have more work to do, but with 4 years instructing and then 4 years on jets behind me I can remember very little about my exams. In my present company it looks like 10 yrs to command too, so perhaps having to do an ATPL course nearer command time wouldnt be a bad thing ?

[Cabotage Kid]

Whilst it may well be possible for someone to gain a licence, they could hardly be described as someone who has been exposed to the necessary enviroment.
It isn't a new license but a new training proposal. I'm not sure. Yes I do have concerns about the airmanship side if only because you have to try had to die in a sim crash. But then again, the pressure of getting things 100% right in a sim multi-crew+trainer environment can, I imagine, be much more demanding than the seemingly remote possibility that your engine will fail somewhere near Reading.

On the face of it a rational and modern apporoach to multi-crew flight training. However, it will probably only be cost effective (in the short term at least) to those organisations with the existing sim hardware. Also on a practical side, how many sims are free? I get the impression that most pilots end up doing their sim checks at about two in the morning.

[ecj]

When all systems are working normally, a low hour competent pilot has no difficulty working the aircraft systems etc.

However, when the chips are down, it is the overall experience, not only on type, but also from a previous life which will be called upon to deal with the situation.

No matter what your occupation or profession, you need that solid base, which is tried and tested, when asked to cope with a serious event.

This proposed style of training is fatally flawed, and the powers that be in the airlines need to be convinced of this.

[RVR800]

The ICAO Multi-Pilot Licence will be available from 2006

It enables airlines to take a PPL chappie and put him straight into the RHS by completing his training in an airline simulator. He will then be able to fly an airliner but wont be able to fly single crew IFR. He will therefore be unable to fly his grannie IFR to Blackpool in a BE76 on his weekends off unless he enrols on the Single Crew IR course. :{

Why is this happening?

1/ Technology divergence GA vs Airline glass cockpit
2/ Cost of Simulators falling
3/ Cost of ME IR training rising
4/ The GA route does not train pilots multi-crew just Single crew
5/ Cost of the 'traditional' route and its competitive disadvantage
6/ Recognition that the single crew IR is not a pre-requisite for completion of a Multi Crew IR

Will it happen in Europe ?
The carriers in Europe will demand it......
Will it be popular ... not with the flying schools...

http://www.gapan.org/committees/edtc/0307.htm

[parkfell]

I really would not recommend this scheme to anyone who is funding the training themselves.

It might look good on paper, and new pilots might be taken on under this new arrangement. However, airlines may well be disappointed with the result - not through any fault of the new person as such, but because it is unlikely to produce the QUALITY required [that all important Q word again].

The acid test will be the way in which visual approaches are flown.

This scheme will impose additional training requirements upon the airlines, whereas this will be considerably reduced through a convential route.

Be warned.

[0-8]

*Really* bad news for self-sponsored wannabes.

As far as I know not only would the license restrict you to multi-crew ops only, it would also restrict you to a specific type. Which of course severely limits your job opportunities in what is already a very tough market.

So if nobody is hiring on your chosen type, you are stuck in no man’s land. You can’t get a job on another type, you can’t instruct, you can’t get air taxi work; there is no way at all you can build up your hours. It’s either straight to the right hand seat of a jet or nothing at all. Do or die.

And if that’s not enough, the nature of the course effectively rules out it being a modular one. So we are all looking at paying 65,000GPB minimum.

[Vee One...Rotate]

My gut reaction is similar to ecj's - not convinced by the safety implications of this proposal I'm afraid.

V1R

[RVR800]

The airline pays for it - its designed to reduce costs for them if they elect to provide that training.

At the end of the day if you had your own airline would you pay £6.00 per minute to someone else to train your people in a BE76 or use your own sims using your own methods?

It appears to be driven by time and money for the airlines

By the way this is not new please correct me if I'm wrong but dont the RAF steam direct to multi-pilot from SE light aircraft? T67 direct to RHS sim and airliner...You will then get an ATPL on leaving on the basis of your experience...

Sentry to Easyjet

It's a cost saving to the taxpayer I bet..

They go from Elementary skip basic and go direct to the RHS?

[P1 Forever]

Hi,

I am a little concerned with regards to gaining employment with the airlines when this MPL comes online in 2006.

I am planning on gaining CPL/IR fATPL by the modular route by summer 2006 and therefore wonder if I will be as appealing to the airlines compared to someone who went through MPL.

I know it's very early to tell at this stage but does anyone have any thoughts about my concerns???

Thanks,

P1

[Luke SkyToddler]

Actually for those who are cunning enough to think outside the circle a bit, I reckon it might be the best thing to happen to the self-improver for a long time.

I can see a huge gap in the market developing 5 years down the line, where operators of older and/or more unusual aircraft types can't get pilots.

Reason being, that all the kids coming out of the schools won't be able to apply, say, for a job on a Fokker 100, or a DC9, or a Bae 146, because every single one of them will be typed on 737NG or A320 (or whatever the 2006-equivalent glamour type of the moment is). And it's a type specific licence so they'll be stuck with it once they've paid the money.

And it will be wildly popular with the kids, I mean who the hell wants to spend their £70k on learning to fly the old fashioned way in PA28s and PA34s and a couple of years instructing and turboprops, when all their mates who've just gone first solo are getting turned loose in the A380 sim?

You know exactly what's going to happen ... Multi crew CPL training gets approved, OATS buys a 7E7 sim or whatever, launches a big sales drive, 2 years later the market is awash with a few hundred dip sh!ts who've bought identical type ratings without thinking of the implications and all of a sudden they find they're all competing for the same small number of jobs ... and they can't even apply for any other jobs on ANY other aircraft types.

Result ... the ever reducing pool of people who actually hold old fashioned ATPLs, and are free to add as many types to them as they want, suddenly become in hot demand by the older school jet and pretty much all turboprop aircraft operators. I reckon it will be hell on the turboprop operators in particular, their pool of suitable applicants will become very small indeed after 2 or 3 years of this new style of training.

Got to be some opportunity there for those brave enough to stick to their guns and train the old fashioned way, when all around them are diving into glass-cockpit sims like lemmings :ok:

[ecj]

So let us say you go down this route and obtain this restricted RHS type specific licence - is it proposed that a way exists for "conversion" training onto a new type eg. your F.100, BAe 146 etc etc ?

If you have jumped through the hoops and passed your LST for the Airbus, it is only reasonable that you be allowed to transfer your skills onto a type with "older technology" ?

[wbryce]

Luke,

I hope your thinking does turn out to be correct otherwise we're gonna have a frenzy with GM Pilots :E

[Artificial Horizon]

Guys, you have all got the wrong end of the stick. There will be nothing to stop these new licence holders changing types just as regulary as those of us with full ATPL's. The training for these guys just cuts out pretty much everything post 'solo' and replaces it with around 150 hours of multicrew simulator time. This simulator time does not have to be in a specific type, it could be a case of it being allowed to be carried out in say the new generation of FNPT2 with only the last 25 hours or so to be carried out on a full flight simulator to issue an initial type rating.

Once these guys and girls have this licence they can then go on any multicrew type rating course and gain extra ratings like happens now. So they will be employable by all the same airlines as everyone else. I think this is very bad news indeed, it will mean that someone in the future will be able to get the new licence for much less money than what most of us have spent and will be on equal footing. I don't think that there are safety issues here, someone who has completed this type of training 'should' be just as capable of hand flying bigger types as anyone else. I just wish it had been an option a few years ago, it may have saved me a bit of money.

[RVR800]

Yes I can see the number of pilots taking the Single Crew IR drop even further...

I was amazed to read on the CAAs site that last year only 25 PPLs in the Uk passed the IR out of 30,000 PPL licenced pilots (less that 1 tenth of one percent)

Compare that with the FAA system - I suppose thats European 'progress' ? :ugh: