The truth about Oxford Aviation Training

[dogpilot757]

Hi all,

This is for anyone considering using Oxford Aviation Training to complete their modular flight training. This is for information purposes only and comes from a current OAT student.

For anybody who has researched the flight training at Oxford will know that they complete hour building and CPL in Phoenix AZ, so I'll start there.

The training facility is shared with Sabena and there are a mixture of well equipped Warriors, Archers, Arrows and two Seneca 5's. The US branch of OAT is poorly run with schedules constantly changing with certain instructors and students taking the wrong A/C. However the instruction was excellent and I completed my CPL in the allotted 4 week time.

Coming back to Oxford to complete my IR I was sure that the organization would be better and I would complete the course in the 6 weeks. However this is the start of my 8th week and the finish is still approx' 2/3 weeks away. The main cause of this is due to the demand on the simulators.

Simulators

Oxford have 3 Beech King Air simulators which are run in Seneca mode. While this provides a representation (please note the lack of the word 'accurate') of the aircraft performance the cockpit layout is completely different which can not aid the transfer to the aircraft.
The 3 simulators are shared by 90 students, so availability is scares. When the weather is bad there is 1/2 students on standby for every simulator slot. To resolve any conflicts Oxford us a priority list is based purely on the date started, so you may think you have a slot until you get bumped 10 mins before your slot! Also having been there for 8 weeks I'm still only 60ish on the priority list.
The simulators are also prone to regular crashes (of the computer kind) part way throught a flight and you have to wait for the instructor to reboot to carry on the flight. This isn't so much of an issue until you realise that you're still getting charged for the five or so minutes for it to reboot, and at Oxford rates that's expensive.
The other thing that for the life of me I can't understand is they charge 15 minutes for taxi in a SIM? If anyone understands this please let me know.

Aircraft

The Seneca 2's a Oxford are well equipped and well maintained, having said that an aircraft went tech on my 10 minutes into my flight so we returned to Oxford. I'm currently protesting being charged for that flight. Oxford's explanation is "you still learnt something"....

Attitude of it's employees

The general attitude of OAT employees is to treat students like recalcitrant children. They seem to have forgotten that these same children are customers and pay there wages.

Summary

I went to Oxford because they have a good reputation. The instruction I have received has been excellent. If you decided to go to Oxford then be prepared for it to take longer than you originally planned and also to feel like you're being ripped off!!!

Good luck.

[Captain Ratpup]

Very interesting comments. Anyone else experienced these issues? Another good reason not to touch Oxford with a bargepole.

[concorde002]

Interesting post! Myself and friends have Oxford on our shortlist of flight schools to attend in the new year.

Could anyone provide any other feedback on their experience at Oxford?

Also can someone provide a discription of what FTE in Jerez is like as a comparison?

Many Thanks

[silverknapper]

Perhaps Oxford blue might like to respond to this thread.

[witchdoctor]

Very old and long-running comments about OAT, which have been doing the rounds for many, many years - long before the 'new' courses and sims. Hardly an 'exclusive' scoop worthy of the front page. Anybody with the brains to use the search facility would have accessed countless threads of a similar vein going back a loooong way. I'm surprised you're surprised.

Try complaining properly to Oxford. I know a number of people who approached Anthony in a professional and mature manner who had various complaints resolved, including similar ones to this. I know of no-one who had anything resolved after bellyaching on pprune, or after jumping up and down threatening legal action (another old favourite).

No, I don't work for them, nor am I the main cheerleader for the OAT marketing men. I've had plenty of beefs of my own over the years, but please see the comments above.

Finally, you may be shocked to learn that the Seneca instrument layout is not an industry standard, and Mr. Boeing and Mr. Airbus have rather unfairly decided on an altogether different setup, as have all the other manufacturers. Whilst this makes your training slightly more difficult, it does not make it impossible. Having passed the OAT 'selection', you are supposed to be of a high enough calibre that this should not present an insurmountable hurdle. Hardly presenting yourself as the kind of resourseful and determined individual an employer would be looking for.

[TRon]

No I think what our man was saying was that the layout in the sim is different to that on the aircraft.

Considering you do your test in the aircraft and 40 hour sin the sim, there is a fair amount of 'unlearning' to do.

I also agree regarding the sims.

I spoke to a mechtronix engineer on the quite once who informed me that they tested them over quite a boozy weekend and oxford couldn't wait to sign the acceptance to start earning on them.

Fact is, they are a procedure trainer and in that they are OK. They handle nothing the real thing and the feedback is terrible. It crashed on me several times and they didn't charge me for that, but I couldn't log it as training. Oh Well.

My IR took a month longer than anticipated and there were people ina worse boat than me. Just had an instructor who wouldn't lay over for anyone.

[jote]

Oxford came highly recommended to me however my experiences where such that I could not currently promote them to others. They were average on the groundschool (I have considerable training experience)

After attempting to resolve an issue face to face they left me high and dry. My only course of action was to take legal action that I could ill afford, Sadly the CAA insisted that Oxford must endorse my exam applications, needless to say Oxford refused unless I stopped any action against them.

A subsequent arrangement was agreed, which again they failed honour in its entirety.

My disappointment with Oxford cannot be overstated. The school was nothing special in any way shape or form. It’s just OK. Their ethics & morals well I leave that for you to decide upon.

For me I got by in the end, it cost me more than it should have, Oxford also loose out nowadays I come into contact with many wannabees trying to choose between schools………:{

[jamespollard]

just finished the atpl theory exams at oxford.
got 84% average and have now left to fly elsewhere - I
wouldnt contemplate flying there as they are 30% more expensive than other schools.
The American flying they offer (for the CPL and hourbuild) is paid for in Sterling currency, so given the weak dollar they make plenty of profit from this element of the course also.
The IR takes about 3 months at the moment and is 14000 approx.
Go to Bristol or Aeros in Gloucester for the IR
You do get good tuition but there are better providers for the actual flight training out there.
happy landings

[TenAndie]

I imagine that there is always going to be a minority who are unhappy with something. There is always going to be some people who have bad experinces out of so many hundred.
Hope you get your problems sorted out

I am currently looking to do my ATPL ground school, CPL, IR and MCC and theese are the first bad things i have heard about Oxford. I am looking at Bournemouth and Multiflight (leeds), where you do your ground school at Bristol.

Any comments, positive ot negative would be a great help.

Cheers

[acw350]

I have been looking very closely at oxford for flight training and have all there info which all seems good!!!!! They all do. But it is really what experiences people have and tell on this which i think sells a school to potential students like me. Im starting with EPTA doing some ground school then really just having a nosy around for the flying. Talking of oxford i have called them 3 times and left my number for them to call me back and if they really wanted my money they would have called me by now. But as usual they havent and im not wasting my timer calling them.

They are meant to be one of the best but as sime of the above states they decieve us poor poor new students. Is there anything we can do as wannabee's

just saw what i wrote no one talk about my spelling !!!!!!

[EGAC_Ramper]

Strange that,I've often left my number with Oxford and they have always gotten back to me sharpish usually within couple of hours,and before anyone may say 'm not a APP hopeful but someone wishing to pursue full-time modular training.

Regards:D

[ML Handler]

I started at OATS did the ground school and went to Aeros for the flying. Aeros were fantastic I can not say enough good things about them. My class mate stayed at OATs for the flying as he wanted OATs on his CV, two months later he left in disgust. Take the advice above and take your money elsewhere, Bristol is another very good school with fantastic facilities,for a start the Sims are the same as the A/C.

[Mooneyboy]

I hope these experiences are in the minority since 10 minutes ago I sent an online application for their modular course.

All flight schools are going to have problems especially with the size of oxford but they still provide first class training.

Mooneyboy.

[jollypilot]

I completed all ground training, CPL, IR and MCC with Oxford, modular - and if I was to again I would certainly do it with them!

I am not sure why people complain - as said above the only gripes you can have with oxford are already well published - and as such expected and accountable when choosing a flight school.

Yes, they are more expensive, and yes, you will not complete in the 6 weeks quoted - but surely if you have done any research at all you will know this before you go.

The groundschool tuition was excellent, truely. Only one instructor, who despite being a great guy, some in my class weren't happy with - and we had him changed. No problems, no hard feelings.

Flying tuition is more down to individual instructors - not in quality, but in how many delays you may take. The tuition is all extremely good.

Despite what people may tell you, if you do your trainig with the school - and heres they key bit, have a good relationship with the school, they DO help find work - even to modular guys.I'm talking from experience here. However, if you are confrontational, loud mouthed and do your CPL/groundschool elsewhere - you cannot expect that help.

The sims are just procedural trainers - perhaps they do put a little too much emphasis on them and some more seneca time would be ideal for some. I really cannot accept peoples comments about instruments being in the different places from the seneca causing a problem though! For christ's sake! If that is an issue then you will struggle with the IR regardless. There is not a huge amount of difference, and if you cannot adapt your scan ever so slightly, having benefited from the things you can learn in the sim that you can't always in the aircraft (yes there are some!) then I really dont know what to say to you!

In summary - if you prepare yourself before for the bad sides you will not be dissapointed with the equipment or tuition you recieve, in fact you will be a happy customer!

[Cat IIIC]

I did my MCC with Oxford and don't have a bad word to say about them. They were fantastic.

[traumahawk71]

I have chosen the modular route and used a number of different schools.
I did complete my MCC at Oxford and have no complaints about that course. I found the instructors to be excellent.

However having talked to some of the other guys and girls on my MCC course who had followed the oxford integrated they were certainly dissappointed about what they got for their money.

Comments about the length of time it took to do IR, and how Oxford was more concerned about PROFIT than training them especially when it came to flying in USA spring readily to mind. One chap had completed his 170A and was about to do his test when they realised he had not done enough hours. Call that professional?

In summary I would say OXFORD = PROFIT with little thought to students.

I did my IR at Bristol and passed it first time with them and in about the time they suggested it would take. No complaints there.
:ok:

[fly3000]

I think the idea of pre testing students for the course is a good idea and I think the APP course is good , but then again it must be done properly and not just a con. It must be recognised by airlines first......and airlines should state they recognise it.
So many spend money in the hope of an airline position eventually but have little hope after the course of being selected. everyone gets through eventually ...but eventually is not good enough in an airline. Again its who you know and Oxford is a good place for sons and daughters of current airline pilots 'the old school tie' but not the dustmans son. Donot know the answer at present but saving money then doing a type rating seems the way to go.
I think today if you go into a CPL course you must be prepared when you finish to do anything initially and be paid very little..... not think you will pay off you debts by getting that great airline job.
I think counselling and selection should be encouraged before you start ....not lets see your cheque book.

[GRIFFIN2000]

Check out www.pilotutdanning.no :ok:

[zorrotfb]

Never ever been there myself but I once got a postcard from a mate who was on a detachment there and all it said was Beer £5 a pint, fags £ 6 a packet ! and this was a few years ago. The women were quality though :D

[BigAir]

and how many of you pissed off modular people who have done 1 tiny bit of training at OATS still come back years later to the careers presentations and whinge like girls that Oxford don't get you a job??? quite a few I should imagine.

Oxford as has been said here many times before is what you put into it, I finished my IR in the 8 weeks given with our instructor being on holiday for some of that to boot. But at the same time there are people on my course who 6 weeks later where still doing it - mainly because of weather delays, but they also didn't push to get flights done in early days. In my whole course of 14 odd months I finished 1 week late, and that was due to the number of modular guys booking up the MCC courses. Instruction was excellent, first time passes in everything so little to complain about. If you are not prepared to put the work in, or expect someone to hold your hand through your training then maybe aviation isn't for you, it won't happen on your type training, so get used to it.

To those starting training remember that negative comments always go further than positve ones, and there is always little positive to say about Oxford on pprune because the numerous happy people with Oxford can never be bothered to get the constant barrage from a few individuals everytime we make a post.

As regards to attitude of staff at OXford, well they treated me pretty good - maybe dogpilot was unlucky with an odd instructor or expected a Eton reunion type atmosphere

And finally I don't understand his post "the truth about oxford" anyway, in his final paragraph he sums it up "Excellent reputation (why else would you go there as a modular guy and pay more... because airlines have at least heard of them), instruction was excellent (so you were happy then, why this posting?), took longer (could be many reasons, there has been crappy weather over the summer, maybe you didn't like doing 2 trips a day... who knows), feel like you have been ripped off - thats aviation training in general and can happen anywhere - but hey I did APP and feel like I got value for money because I payed my set price and got exactly what I expected having done my research.

BigAir

[silverknapper]

Do you have a job yet?

[TRon]

BigAir, I guess Oxford kissed your little ass all day long as the guinea pig for their new scheme. You still got 20k sitting around for a type rating? Or are you going to be one of the 24, of course all from Oxford, going to BA?

I was on the whole very happy with Oxford as I have stated previously. I never expected to have them help me. I just found Mike Taylor's emails patronising and darn right offensive to us as 'ex-students'

I then see an APP scheme set up to rival CTC's McAlpine scheme as it was then (Now the Wings scheme) and they didn't have any customers but were still asking you to pay the same price. In my view, they were treating you like mugs.

I also passed first time, and now have a job on a 737 getting an A319 rating next June, all thanks to CTC not Oxford but then I never expected them to help me or anyone else which is why I got off my arse and tried CTC. Sure there are some real whingers at Oxford. Couple of guys who went through at the same time as me couldn't be bothered to fill out the application for for CTC. Guess what they are still unemployed. Maybe they blame Oxford I dont know.

Oh and as for people flying twice a day, fat chance mate. The only people who did that when I was there were APP guys who pinched aircraft of other Integrated courses and the modular because they were quote 'Higher Priority'. But hey, you know the industry now mate 'Thats aviation you say' thanks to your 'First Officer Fundementals week' (http://www.macrodata.co.uk/ap231/News/presentations/presentations.html) and got your Cub Scout 2 stripes you can fly twice a day to catch up, as you are a real pilot. I would expect that kind treatment if I paid that much, which obviously you did. Well done Oxford, well done you.

Believe me, once you start a type rating, line training and line flying. you'll realise how insignificant where you did your initial training is in the grand scheme of things and how Oxford's self proposed importance in the training world is complete rubbish, considering they are not even a TRTO for the price BBA paid for them. They have massive fixed costs compared to other schools, Anthony will be the first to admit that. Guess who pays those costs...

[silverknapper]

Thanks for that link tron

Haven't laughed so much in years!!!!

[Frank Furillo]

That is soooooooo funny TRon, do you have any more.
By the way i am going the Modular route and will save £10000's off Oxford.
Frank

[arpansingla]

hello people, i am 15 years old and considering where to do my flight training. i have looked into 'integrated courses' such as oxford, however i dont understand what you lot mean when you say 'type ratings'? could you explain this to me, and also would you say 'modular' training is better than integrated?

[Frank Furillo]

arpansingla

check your pm's

Frank

[BigAir]

Congratulations on the job Tron, I guess on the 737 and going to Airbus soon you must be in with the big easy and I am sure Oxford have you included in their 108 for this year despite you sorting yourself. Seems strange however how you got bumped for APP guys coming through and you got on and through the CTC scheme, type rated on the 737 only to probably not even finish your line training before doing an airbus course... or maybe you finished at OXford a bit earlier than you are leading on to??? If not then 2 type ratings in 6 months is good going mate - well done you. That said there were rumours about APP students stealing ac when the first APP course was still in groundschool, made me chuckle that one.

Seniority system on the senecas - when I IR'd I was about number 30 and never had the benefits of it at all, got bumped once by someone doing their 170 the following day only to get another ac 5 minutes later. I think a lot depends on your instructor going for a sensible programme... as I say we had no trouble, but then we didn't set out to be airbourne at 8am everyday with the majority.

FOF training - well if you haven't done it you can't comment, but trust me knowledge of the industry did not come from that, but it was a useful 2 weeks.

No I haven't got 20k sitting around for a type rating, never intended to, don't plan on working for anyone who wants me to chuck in that kind of money upfront... and yes I do have a job, mainly through my own contacts but with a bit of help from Oxford so no complaints from me.

BigAir

[lscajp]

I love the post from zorrotfb about the price of beer and fags. To be honest I do laugh and the bitterness that goes on here. In any other professional forum you don´t get so many sour grapes.