Modular Is The Way

[The Butler]

As there is so much debate and discussion over the modular vs integrated topic, very little of which is based on fact (just opinions) and no conlusions I decided to ask them myself. Yep, I wrote to 14 major UK airlines and asked them directly:

Would you prefer an integrated student or a modular student?

So far I have received 11 replies.

10 of them stated that it does not make a difference and advised me do go with the route that is most cost effective and suitable for me

Only 1 of them said they prefer their cadets to have completed an integrated course at a certain school which they deal with and put their sponsored cadets through.

Well???

From the horses' mouths I sure as hell know now what Im doing, and guess what?

It aint a rip off integrated course!!!

I havn't yet decided where to go but wherever its gonna be modular. Ive just completed my PPL Im gonna get some more hours and get on with it, and be better off for it!

PEOPLE DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY!!!

[silverknapper]

To quote the butler only recently

Eye eye mooney boy, I suppose Im in a similarish situation but Im tryin to decide whether or not to complete my PPL before I go to either oxford or Jerez. Ive done sooo much research into flight schools ground schools etc etc and have arrived at the general idea that I will be better off with integrated training. I don't care what people say that it doesn't make a **** of difference for jobs, I think at the moment that it does. There seems to be a preference and it it seems safer.

Finally the butler does some proper research.

Heres to using the search button!

[Captain Ratpup]

Interesting reply silverknapper. Wonder if Jeeves The Butler will share his thoughts?

Ratpup

[daw]

It seems logical that most young wannabees are drawn to the PR driven world of integrated schools. Ignoring their prices then they do look attractive from the standpoint of providing a one stop shop and if you see them in action at the various flight training shows then the glitz and glamour probably gets some of the more naive young ins as well. For those of us that are more street savvy and willing to spend some time doing the research then modular will win hands down everytime.

Nice bit of reserach though Butler.

[six-sixty]

I may be wrong but you may have been asking only half the question. At the BEOC on saturday, of the airlines that presented that may be taking low houred pilots anytime soon, nearly all of them stipulated integrated training as a requirement.

It's once you've got the hours and/or the type rating that it seems to become irrelevant.

Did you ask them specifically about low houred pilots?

I am doing modular by the way, and have been wishing for some time for all sorts of reasons that I'd gone integrated.

[no sponsor]

Did anyone actually ask the presenters why they prefer integrated?

According to some of the posts on the conference thread, only BA & their affiliates stipulated integrated.

The lack of lobbying from modular schools is quite depressing.

[Send Clowns]

BA & their affiliates stipulated integratedEven that's not true. CitiExpress have taken modular very recently. A lot of nonsense is talked about this. The only two airlines I have ever managed to confirm will only look at integrated graduates are BA and Emirates, and neither has taken low-hour pilots in years.

[six-sixty]

Well I was there and can assure you it was more than BA and Emirates! Emirates is irrelevant anyway as they stipulate min 1000 hrs for SO.

Someone during the session asked one of the airlines, (though I can't remember which one) as to why. The reason given was that "in their experience" they do better on the type rating.

Send Clowns is correct that CitiExpress specifically stated that they have no preference. They were the only ones to say this, hence the queue to ingratiate oneself with this guy stretched back to the M4.

Funnily enough no airline said they prefer modular over integrated!!!

One of the surprises for me was Channel Express saying they wanted integrated. They are definitely on my list of would-like-to-work-fors, and so after discussing this point with them quite vigorously we established that my modular background would not necessarily discount me, but I may have to escort my CV personally around some of the defences when the time comes. I at least get to say "you said I could apply when we met the BEOC"!!!!

Notwithstanding the type rating comment above I suspect that rather than a reflection of the quality of pilot between mod/int it's just a way of keeping the tonnage of CVs down.

Damn. I've just got involved in a modular vs integrated thread..Arggh!

[Mooneyboy]

Its funny how people change their views so quickly especially since at one time I thought the butler had total belief in the intergrated schools. I suppose in April I was the same.

Just one point but modular is cheaper as long as you stick to the required hours to gain each part of the license. If you go over and really bugger up certain ratings then I sure the final cost will be more than what some of these adverts suggest is the total price for going modular. Just a thought.

Six sity, you seem to wish you had gone intergrated, is this because of the school ( would be interesting to know which school you are at) or just the recent situation with the oxford APP students getting jobs easily with Channel Express ( please don't quote me on this last bit) .

Mooneyboy:suspect:

[six-sixty]

Mooneyboy
For me it's probably 30% employability compared to 70% training environment.

Though I am nearly done with the groundschool via BGS who I am extremely happy with, I am not convinced about artificially divorcing of theoretical study from practical flying. I feel that for me a lot of the theory would make more sense in a practical context and vice versa. There's also the support /encougagement/ general energy thing you get from doing this in a group, though I appreciate you can do full-time modular as well.

If I were starting this from scratch, even though I had a PPL already, yes I probably would have gone integrated despite the cost. I am lucky that money is not my top criteria.

I'm not sure one route can be classed as "best". Isn't choice a wonderful thing!

[silverknapper]

Six

I'm not sure that on an integrated course you do that much flying whilst studying. My favourite part of modular was going off somewhere new whilst hour building and studying.
However I know what you mean. At times it just feels that if there was some form of modular school assosciation we may get more lobbying done on our behalf....it's a lonely old route.

[The Butler]

Why the change?

First of all I was totally in the middle. Then as I found out more and more I ended up convinced that integrated was definitely the way (without talking to any marketing people by the way).

Then as I looked more and more into it and considered modular again I was in the middle and undecided. There is such a split opinion to which way is best and noone seems to know any truth and Id had enough of listening to the arguments. So I thought why not write to the airlines themselves.

And there we go. Settled for good and am no longer confused and will be perfectly confident throughout my training that I will have as much chance as anyone else when it comes to getting a job.

Six sixty-
Apart from the long haul airlines which said it doesn't make a difference because they don't recruit anyone with less than x hours, the others said

IF they were to recruit low houred guys (responding to my question) then having completed a modular course done at various different places etc would not hinder them in any way. Some even said that it actually looks good because it demonstrates ability to manage and organize yourself and things like that.

Im so glad I found this out, otherwise I would have wasted a hell of a lot of money for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

Cheers, and remember,

just say 'no' to integrated bolucks! ;)

[Mooneyboy]

I totally agree with six sixty about the seperation between ground theory and the flight part afterwards. I found this a few years ago with the Air Law in the PPL. When things were put into pratical practice things became clearer. However this does happen with the reverse. Anyway good luck with the rest of your training.

Butler. I must have hit a nerve. The reason I thought you were pro intergrated at first was because you were saying you wanted to go through the big intergrated schools, Oxford and Jerez. I do not apologise for at first believing that you were pro intergrated.

One thing I am sure of is when you are going through ( I myself have just applied to a modular course) your modular route there will be definately times when you will feel that you should have gone intergrated. I know that if I had just finished a modular course at oxford now I would have been thinking that I would be in an airline quicker if I had gone intergrated.

So for been ' perfectly confident throughout your course' I somewhat doubt it.

Mooneyboy:p

[WaNNabeFlyEr]

Well i just wanted to say that most schools will charge a big amount for a integrated course but after endless research i did find a reasonably priced intergrated course in Canada and thats where im going to be going on the 21st...now the way i see it is in the end as long as u get your licences and ratings and you are able to do it with the utmost dedication integrated courses can be completed

[Penworth]

I didn't know there were any JAA integrated schools in Canada? According to this caa document (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_APPROVEDFTOS.PDF) the only integrated schools are Oxford, FTE and cabair.
What's the name of the place you've found Wannabeflyer?

PW

[Vee One...Rotate]

The Integrated v. Modular debate is flawed in that it is assumed that one is "better" than the other. The decision to go down a certain route is personal choice based on personal circumstance and personal aspirations.

If Mr. X is loaded and money isn't an issue, then he may well decide that a structured integrated course (on the average, the more expensive route) will get him the required bits of paper pretty quickly and he'll have a nice structured environment in which to complete his training...just what he'd like from his training provider.

Ms. Y can't afford $xx,xxx for Mr. X's integrated course and doesn't want to be in debt from taking out a loan. She decides that she'll have to work while training (though she has a bit saved away) so she goes down the modular route - it'll probably take her a bit longer to get those bits of paper but she figures at least she'll be debt-free.

After 18 months or so, Mr. X has a shiny new fATPL. After 3 years or so, Ms. Y has a shiny new fATPL. Mr. X and Ms. Y have similar hours and ceratinly any difference between them isn't too drastic as they both definately fit in the "low-houred" bracket.

Mr X is happy - minimum time to get his fTPL and a nice support network around him. Ms. Y is happy too - she's been in work for years and didn't fancy the structured integrated option...and couldn't afford it anyway.

Mr. X and Ms. Y made decisions based on their circumstances and, yes, maybe one of the factors they looked at was their prospective employer's preference (if one exists, regardless of them deeming it fair or not fair).

My point is there is no "best way of getting an fATPL" for everyone. It's not that clear-cut. By all means we should talk about pros and cons but not really whether one is better or not.

Good luck :ok:

V1R

[silverknapper]

Except what you just said is wrong...modular can be done in same time or less than integrated. And comes out with more hours.
If you're going to try and make points be accurate at least.

[Vee One...Rotate]

See:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=148724

V1R

[Send Clowns]

V1 Rotate

Could you please not post misinformation? It is commonly said that an integrated course is quicker and more structured. This is a false impression, based on the experience of people who want the flexibility of a modular course, to take the time and use a variety of schools. If taken as a full-time, dedicated programme the modular course can not only be just as quick but also just as structured, assuming the student has one organisation run the training programme throughout.

Posting a false impression like you do can only confuse the issue for people choosing the route they wish to take. Obviously it also damages companies like my employer who provide a complete solution, zero to frozen ATPL, structured and monitored throughout by skilled instructors with a high level of standardisation, but as a modular course.

[timzsta]

I know someone who just finished modular route last month with just over 200 hrs. He is now on a 737 type rating course. Modular / integrated is irrevelant unless you want to get into BA or a BA franchise airline.

[Send Clowns]

Timzsta

I seem to be repeating myself! You don't need to complete an integrated course to apply with low hours for BA CitiExpress, the BA franchise operator.

[WaNNabeFlyEr]

that the catch tho its not a JAA intergrated course..its a ICAO and i am probably gonna have to end up doing a conversion if i choose to return but if u were in shoes where it dosent matter even if it means reloacating to the ends of the world a ICAO qualification is as good as any. newayz im gonna go with pro-ifr...just aint got the money to train over here..modular or integrated

[Send Clowns]

Be wary. If you do a non-JAA IR with a view to cheap conversion, you will probably end up spending more in the end. The 15-hour conversion is a minimum. It is designed for a holder of, say an FAA or CASA IR who has some experience and wishes now to work in the UK. Conversion from a fresh new FAA IR will probably take you longer. I would only recommend doing an FAA IR if you are going to use it, never simply to convert it!

[WaNNabeFlyEr]

ahh gotta keep that in mind...do you know how much it would cost for a conversion to JAA IR? say maybe in OATS? or any other school in the UK?

[Send Clowns]

With my employer you could do 15 hours on the aircraft for about £5145, less if you use the sim for some of it which is about £145 per hour instead of £345. That is about normal for the UK. However, don't expect to pass first time after 15 hours!

[Alex Whittingham]

I asked Bristol Flying Centre and Multiflight to give their realistic estimates for the flying portion of a license conversion for our students. Interestingly they both came in at about £9,000 to £10,000 all in for a CPL skills test and an IR conversion using a typical number of hours, not the minimum. Details of their figures are on our forum (http://jals.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=148).

[WaNNabeFlyEr]

thanx for the figures SC and Alex...so im essentially looking at around 10-12k for my conversion. its a bit more than i anticipated but its still a significant saving if im going to train in Canada. i understand the quality of training over here is well recognized but i can only squeeze so much outta me folks and the rest is going to be coming out from a loan so i havent really got a choice other than to train somewhere else and do a conversion. the canadian one is costing me approx 22k in pounds including accomodation using typical flying hours which i can just bout afford for now. thanx again guys :D

[lscajp]

I think the modular students out there are getting worried now the market has closed up.....integrated does seem to be the way as opposed the the paint by numbers modular route.

If I were an employer i'd want consistency and professionalism. Something you get with a integrated course. Something that is hard to strive for (but possible) with a modular route.

Guess which one i've opted for?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Err the more expensive one that gets you fewer hours, takes longer and sees you as being just a number in a big sausage machine..?

:)

WWW

[Patty O'Doors]

Now then, I am an airline pilot recruiter (pretend) I have 2 pilots in front of me, one is quietly confident, answers my questions honestly, not always exactly what I want to hear but close enough to prove that he/she isn't :mad: ing and has a sense of humour that isn't irritating.

This same pilot passes the sim check okay and generally we like them.

The other pilot is an ARSE!! who I wouldn't trust with a tram leave alone a 737, now, should I just check to see whether they are Modular or Integrated before I choose one?

Should I bollox.

...and BA do/will recruit modular route pilots. If you don't believe me, ask them.

[PilotOnline]

Iscajp,

Without getting into a, 'this route's better than that route' discussion:-

Exactly how has the market 'closed up' for modular students? Do you mean the entire market, airline, bizjet etc or are you just referring to the chances of walking out of school and straight into a major carrier?

[Patty O'Doors]

If I were an employer i'd want consistency and professionalism. Something you get with a integrated course. Something that is hard to strive for (but possible) with a modular route. Guess which one i've opted for?


I missed this before. You've really had the marketing suppository inserted in you good and proper haven't you young man. ;)

Believe me I know plenty of schools where you'll get more consistency of instruction picking the modular route than some integrated courses, and as professional. :ok:

Modular does not mean mediocre, just as Integrated does not mean better. They are different routes to the same end, a fATPL.

[Mr E Pilot]

Madness!:rolleyes:

Why is there so much debate on this subject? It seems to be down to oneupmanship rather than reasonable debate.

Now I'm going to go into a preechy ramble but...

Part of the requirement of pilots is to make difficult decisions quickly. These decisions must be made upon available facts and the circumstances.

The choices we all make in life are difficult and the results often depend on perception/personality. One point that everyone has missed is actually the most important!

It's the point regarding Happiness.:eek:

This is not simply a hippy statement. If you are happy learning then the quality of the experience will be of further benefit to you.

You should choose which ever course you feel happiest doing and the only way you will know is by taking a risk and committing to one path and keeping your fingers crossed.

There is no easy way to fulfilling dreams, or what would be the point? Success is down to many more factors than integrated or modular. Either is only as good as the person doing them. Your success will depend on you and your determination. Your ability to gain a job will depend on your ability to overcome the competition, economic climate and the challenges you face everyday.

So don't get hung up on which might be the best way. There isn't one. Just different ways. Everyone who's done it has a different story to tell. So just go the way that's most plausible to you in terms of cost and time and which you feel is most suitable but mostly, which you are most happy about doing.

Good luck... :ok: just don't get luckier than me:D

[HandspringGuy]

It is not for one person to say that one of the two is better or worse for another person.

That is the main reason why this debate goes on and on.

I don't think there are many of us who would shell out the kind of money we do without knowing all the facts and all the options.

Patty O'Doors has the right idea. If you are a good bloke and you justify the reasons you made the decisions you did, you will get hired.

I chose the Integrated course, personally...not because I am gullible, or have spare cash to burn, not even because I thought it was better than modular. I chose to do it that way because it was the best option for me . I have a mortgage to pay and I am not getting any younger so I wanted the course over as quickly as possible; my bank manager felt more comfortable with me paying one sum for an all-in package and you get to wear a lovely uniform (only joking about the last one).

To quote, if I may:

"...don't judge a man until you have walked in his shoes..."

It doesn't matter how you climb the cliff-face as long as you reach the summit (and you are not an ARSE)

HG :ok:

[Mouse Organ]

Some wise words from Handspring there, I agree whole-heartedly, and not just because my circumstances are very similar in terms of age etc. I have my feelings on the pro's and cons of M vs. I, but I'm not going to air them, because by now it would be a pointless thing to do.

What I will say however is this; although some are pilots and some are not, (I fall into the latter group), I read through some postings here and realize more and more that if you don't have some of the basic abilities such as professionalism, motivation, common sense, ability to listen and learn, leadership potential, confidence, humour and humility then it won't matter one bit what route you take, you won't improve your chances one iota. Want my advice as a wannabe - take a long good look in the mirror.


The way some pilots carry themselves on this forum astounds me, and quite frankly, I can't believe they made it. As I've said before, I've learnt a lot here about different experiences in regard to M vs. I, but my circumstances haven't changed, and neither have my training plans, and they are not likely to either regardless of what people rant on about.

MO