Dash 8 Q-300 For Air Nelson

[BCF Breath]

Well done chaps. Nice bit of kit. Have fun.:O
And 17 of them as well. More toys for the boys (oh, and girls) ;)

So who gets to fly the first when it arrives in July '05 ??

[belowMDA]

Ah, you beat me to it BCF, were you sitting in the hangar with your laptop and wifi connection to pprune?;)
awesome and the folks must be over the moon.

[BCF Breath]

Ah, never underestimate the power of a Txt Msg....

[TAY 611]

Good choice the Q300 is a fantastic turboprop. You will all love flying it and I am sure the owners will eventually wish that that was the direction that they had gone with Mt Cook.
Enjoy...:}

[Vmo248]

National carrier Air New Zealand said it planned to buy 17 new Dash 8 Q300 turbo-prop aircraft for operation on domestic regional routes.

The planes, built by Canada's Bombardier, would replace its current fleet of Saab 340A aircraft, which have an average age of 17 years.

The new aircraft are bigger than the Saab and increase capacity. The delivery of the first new aircraft is expected in July 2005 with one joining the fleet every six weeks, completing the delivery process within two years, the company said.

The total investment in the new planes would be about NZ$350 million to be funded by debt.

Shares in Air New Zealand, 82 percent owned by the New Zealand Government last traded steady at NZ$1.60.

:ok:

Didn\'t I rad here that Eagle is getting a couple of the newer 340\'s to boost there capacity??

[Sqwark2000]

Vmo,

Some of Eagle's sectors are being operated by Air Nelson SAAB's over the summer to increase capacity to places like Kerikeri, Gisborne & Tauranga. The Beech will pick up extra frequency to other destinations such as Whangarei.

Congrats to the lads for their new toys.

S2K

[chicken6]

And from Bombardier's website



12:11am (UK)
Bombardier Signs Air New Zealand for 17 Q300 Turboprops

"PA"


Business Editors

TORONTO – (BUSINESS WIRE) – Oct. 10, 2004 – Options on Additional Q300 and Q400 Aircraft Bring Potential

Order to 40 Turboprop Airliners

Bombardier Aerospace (TSX:BBD.A) (TSX:BBD.B) announced today that

Air New Zealand, a Star Alliance partner, has signed a contract to acquire 17 Bombardier Q300 50-seat turboprop aircraft.

In addition to this firm order, the contract includes options on an additional 10 Q300 and 13 Bombardier Q400 70-seat aircraft. The 17 firm Q300 aircraft will be operated by Air New Zealand’s wholly owned regional airline, Air Nelson, which operates domestic services as Air New Zealand Link.

The firm orders are valued at approximately USD269.5 million US, which could increase to USD716.0 million US if all options are exercised. Deliveries will begin in 2005.

“The Bombardier Q300 aircraft offer an ideal combination of economy, efficiency and performance,“ said Ralph Norris, Managing Director and Chief Executive, Air New Zealand. “Our passengers will be especially delighted by the Noise and Vibration Suppression (NVS) system that provides the quietest, most comfortable cabin of any regional aircraft.”

“Air New Zealand is known for the thoroughness with which it assesses potential aircraft acquisitions so we are delighted that our Bombardier Q300 have been selected as the superior choice to meet the airline’s requirements,“ said Steven Ridolfi, President, Bombardier Regional Aircraft. “With some 700 aircraft in service around the world, the Dash 8/Q Series have earned an enviable reputation for reliability, economy and passenger appeal. We are confident they will do so in the Air New Zealand fleet.

“This order further solidifies Bombardier’s dominant position in the regional aircraft market in the Asia/Pacific region,“ Mr. Ridolfi added. “Airlines in 12 countries in the region operate more than 170 Bombardier regional aircraft, with more than 50 of our turboprops in Australia and New Zealand alone.”

Air New Zealand will be the ninth Star Alliance partner airline to operate Bombardier Q Series turboprops or CRJ regional jets, joining Adria Airways, Air Canada Jazz, Air Nippon Network Ltd., Austrian arrows, Lufthansa Regional, SAS Commuter, United Express and US Airways Express. These airlines operate or have ordered more than 600 Bombardier regional aircraft.


Interesting that neither release mentions , "The order includes a simulator to be based in ___________", although I think that with options for 10 more Q300s as well as 13 Q400s it's a fairly safe bet that Auckland will have some more sim technology arriving next year, or early-mid 2006 when the first crews start needing their 6 month checks alongside the new rating training.

When do we think Auckland airport is going to start rebuilding the domestic side of things, now that they know what wingspan and turning radius they have to allow for? Bring on the confusion!:oh: Lots of :confused: faces as the once-a-year travellers get lost finding the right flights!

Some good names in the list of other operators too, to paraphrase Han Solo, "I've got a good feeling about this".

[rescue 1]

That is good news - great to see some investment in NZ.

BUT who is paying for this? From the surface at least, AirNZ have declining yields on the domestic front, so will Helen need to reach into her pocket again...

[Cloud Cutter]

the contract includes options on an additional 10 Q300 and 13 Bombardier Q400 70-seat aircraft.

Hmmmm, 13 Q400s for Mount Cook, and 10 Q300s for..........
Very Interesting.:8

rescue 1 Helen will be doing no digging, the company has over $NZ1 Billion in cash reserves.

[Eurocap]

Or the whole lot for AIR NEW ZEALAND LINK!!!!
:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

[belowMDA]

Precisely eurocap! as I had brought up in one of the many threads about this topic (I forget which!!!) when ANZ are facing huge competition and declining profits they will seek to lower costs somewhere and I think we all know that running 3 diferent fleets and three different management structures is ludicrous. eventually they will be merged into one and hopefully taking the best aspects from all of them to make one big happy family:E
Q400's for the routes that Cook needed the 72 for,
Q300's for the NSN routes and,
Q200's for the Eagle routes.
it has to happen sooner or later methinks.

[splatgothebugs]

BelowMDA

Exactly what alot of people have been saying for years. The companies will eventually merge.

It makes good old common sense to get rid of all the middle management and just put planes on routes that are required (higher laods bigger planes and vica versa) the next 5 years will be very interesting.

Well thats what I reckon.

splat :ok:

oops forgot to say congrads on the new toys chaps:D

[Under Prepared]

So where to from now for everyone at Air Nelson?
Read in the paper that training for the new type will commence within a matter of weeks? That's quick isn't it?
What about the hiring scene? Rumor from other posts was interviews and ground course towards the end of the year or possibly early next? Still happening? Don't they have a ground course shortly? From how long it took to get through the last course I'd assume that another by the end of the year was a bit much to expect?

[centurian]

Ground course starting shortly, 20 Oct I recall. Further hiring (interviews) was dependant on fleet replacement anouncement, so i imagine (hope) that there will be another ground course or more interviews before the end of the year. New hires will cover training requirements for other crew, so hopefully no more of this temp contract business.

Rescue1 cloud cutter - I cant imagine ANZ using cash to pay for these. Cash is reserved for when the proverbial :mad: hits the fan.

[BCF Breath]

From the NZ Herald.
The $350 million purchase will be funded via debt.

[Plas Teek]

So, what now for those in Air Nelson that were looking at Air NZ?
Will this slow down the current two per selection course?
Will more look twice at staying in Air Nelson now there will be a few more $$ involved and new aircraft??
Just curious.;)

[ZK-NSJ]

in saturdays "christchurch press" air nelson were advertising for a techinical services manager and aircraft engineers with dash-8 experience.

[belowMDA]

"Rumour" has it that there has been a sudden flow of expat kiwi dash 8 pilots with highish time apply for jobs which will have a detrimental effect on those 1500/500 hours folks looking for jobs. Keep at it though and no doubt something will come up:ok:

[ZK-NSJ]

there would still be a few of the ex ansett/origin dash-8 guys floating around wouldnt there

[1279shp]

An ex Eagle Bandit Capt form some years ago is/was with Bombardier as one of their chief Dash8 whizzes. Can see him involved..

[CT7]

Great to see that experience in the RIGHT HAND SEAT !!!!

I hope they don't expect to jump into commands..?

[Artificial Horizon]

Why not put a FEW of them in the left hand seat. Seems daft to put highly experienced Dash pilots into the right hand seat, just to save the feelings of some of the pilots. Although I am not applying if I were to I would hope that having over 3000 hours total time with 1500 hours on all variants of the Dash including command time I would be at least considered for a Direct Entry Command. Seems sensible to me.

[MOR]

It is sensible, which is why it won't happen...

[Pharknose]

CT7 they will be in the right hand seat training you guys remember it aint a Saab..:}

[CT7]

As the Tui Beer add goes,

"Yeah, Right!"

MAYBE briefly on contract.
But I'd even guess that might be star gazing.

[MOR]

767pilot

You are absolutely right.

It's about time NZ aviation got past this parochial nonsense and hired the most qualified and most experienced people for the left seat.

Everybody wants to advance as quickly as possible, which is understandable, but putting a bunch of newly-converted people in the left seat is asking for trouble.

In aviation, experience and qualifications rule (well, outside NZ anyway).

[Captain Condom]

Ha Ha Aritifical Horizon - at least I assume you are taking the p*ss. There are plenty of instructors here in NZ with more total time than you. Until a year ago your hours/time wouldn't have been unusual for an entry level position with Air Nelson.

Many of the F/Os at Air Nelson have way more than 5000 hours, including several '000 hours Saab/Metro time. As far as Dash time goes, I can't see any of them struggling with the new type and I know who I would rather have in the left seat.

That's just the way things are in NZ. It is a pretty nice place to live, Air Nelson is a quality company so people don't move on. Can be frustrating waiting for a command, but even an F/O job is a great job.

[Cloud Cutter]

I've never operated a Dash 8, but I would be suprised if it's as tricky as brain surgery. Surely judgement, command ability, and knowledge of company proceedures are the major considerations. If NAC Viscount and F27 captains could manage the conversion to a 737 without too much a do, can't see the big deal about switching turbo-prop types.

That's my two bobs worth anyway.

[NoseGear]

Cloud Cutter, you are dead right, it is not brainsurgery, its about the big picture when you are in the Left Seat. In command of a Saab, or a Dash8 requires the same skills. All this banging on about "inexperiened" Dash8 captains is from those who want to jump the queue.

767 pilot, "a bit" of Saab time? Most of the captains would have more than 5000 hours with at least half that in the Saab.

Nosey

[splatgothebugs]

I could see it getting very ugly if NSN started employing direct entry cappys.

It would only take one very pi&$ed F/O to go and see ALPA and it would all hit the fan.


splat :ok:

[MOR]

its about the big picture when you are in the Left Seat.

If you WERE in the left seat, you would know that it is also about experience on type. One of the dangers of putting two inexperienced (on type) pilots in the same aircraft, is that neither have the depth of systems knowledge, or familiarity with the various "quirks" that every type has, to be able to handle some of the problems that come along. In the Q400 for example, knowing the various ways to circumvent the computers when they start throwing hissy fits - tricks that aren't written down, but come with experience.

And "jump the queue"? What queue would that be? Look around, most industries select on skill and ability, not length of service. Aviation in NZ may have managed (so far) to avoid this common-sense approach, but it is coming - check out how all the low cost operators select and promote their staff - purely on merit.

Why do NZ pilots think they have a God-given right to the new machinery, just because they have been in the same company for years...

And before the accusations fly, I have no interest in flying a Dash 8.

[Cloud Cutter]

most industries select on skill and ability, not length of service

Yip, the ones that have proven their 'skill and ability' (not to mention loyalty) are at the top of the seniority list. These qualities are not type specific - with the right training an experienced Saab captain should have no problem transitioning to a Dash. As with any major fleet change, there will be a teething period - but this can be effectively managed (as both Eagle and Air NZ have recently demonstrated), and does not warrant queue jumping by new hires.

Seniority prevents the shafting and backstabbing that may otherwise get some to the top.

[NoseGear]

MOR, I AM in the left seat, and I see a few guys with your attitude who think because they can grease it on 1 time in 10 they are ready for command. Yes, knowledge of systems is certainly part of the equation, but it is the big picture you need to be aware of.
The queue, if you look around, exists at just about every major carrier in the world. You can throw up all the arguments you like about brainsurgeons, it is totally irrelevant as it is a totally different enviroment. The LCCs don't just promote on ability, and if you try that argument, then you are completely full of the smelly stuff.
And why should the current pilots at Air Nelson not have the right to the new planes, they've been hired by the company, work there now and deserve it far more than anyone else. Quite a childish remark that one of yours mate.

Nosey

[Woomera]

May I suggest that ALL posters should, before they engage their fingers at the keyboard to "have a go" at another posters imagined experience or lack of, that they should remain in neutral, go to the intendeds profile and click on "View all posts by" top RH and have a good look there.

It might save you some embarrassment in the future. CAPICHE:}

[Pharknose]

A wise company and their pilots would take on a few experienced contractors to ease the new aircraft in it would be an injection of experience on type that will make the difference between an average operation and a well oiled one. Think about this for a bit guys as just one aspect the New Dash 8's come fitted with the UNS 1C/D FMS which is an RNP.03 approach aid (lateral and Vertical). With the previous mentality of pulling the CB's of the FMS's on the Saab fleet most Air Nelson pilots, I suspect, could do with a good bit of training on practical RNAV operation along with just driving the "box' along with the aircraft..
Agreed seniority, on the upside, can keep all the brown nosing and back stabbing at bay however on the down side it also tends to keep all the dead wood floating around the top which generally doesn't show too much untill a new type and concept is introduced. :}
Oh and also before the accusations fly, ben there an done that with 4000 hrs command on 100,Q200 & Q300, LHS on a Jet now, no need to go back.

[MOR]

the ones that have proven their 'skill and ability' (not to mention loyalty) are at the top of the seniority list.

Errr... no, those would be the guys that have been there the longest, which is actually the definition of a "seniority" list. Not everyone who is senior is any more than just barely competent.

The queue, if you look around, exists at just about every major carrier in the world.

Not in regionals it doesn't. In what way is Air Nelson a "major carrier"?

The LCCs don't just promote on ability, and if you try that argument, then you are completely full of the smelly stuff.

Who are you talking about? Not Easyjet. Not Southwest. Who?

work there now and deserve it far more than anyone else.

If your criteria is "deserving it", and not "the safest option", then I am sure you are right.

go to the intendeds profile and click on "View all posts by" top RH and have a good look there.

Yeah, like I really have time for that...!! :p

In the end, this argument will come down to those who are beyond all this "they deserve it more" nonsense, and are flying bigger and better equipment, and those who are on their way up through the regionals and can only see the prospect of flying a Dash being dangled in front of them.

The Dash isn't bad... for a turboprop... :}

[sheberight]

MOR
The Dash isn't bad... for a turboprop...



The 146 isn't bad................................................... for a jet... :yuk:

[TAY 611]

The Dash 8 is not new to NZ with Ansett NZ operating them from the mid 80's right through until their demise in the early 00's. They even went through the unpleasant experience of crashing one so lets not forget that there was a lot of experience on Dash 8's in the not too distant past in NZ. I suspect a lot of this has probably moved on to bigger and better things. There currently is a Q200 operating in NZ and one of the guys, a Canadian, who flys it has some 7000 hours over all Dash 8 variants in various parts of the world. So as you can see there are some valuable rescources here right under your noses. Having, in the last year, transitioned to a new type (first of type as well) it proved very beneficial to us, once the type rating course completed, to have training and operational guidance from an Australian operator that had a wealth of experience on the aircraft but not necessarily on our type of operation. The Q300 is an old design that has stood the test of time which is the reason you guys are getting them. It is not too difficult to fly however like any aircraft there are motor memory and management skills that need to be developed to suit the type in the environment you operate. This will require a change in the way you do things and your operating philosopy and policy will more than likely change to suit the new type as its not just as simple as learning where the switches are and a few new speeds. Air NZ recently went to the Airbus and we have all heard of the little incident over the Manukau which I suspect will have at least something to do with the new aircraft being introduced. Look after your seniority list and make sure that it is all done properly, if that is the culture of your company, but don't let it get in the way of gaining quality training and operational guidance as your first year of operation will be your most vulnerable. As someone has allready pointed out you fly Saabs at the moment and I am sure will make fine Dash pilots however don't overestimate yourselves and underestimate the need for some training wheels for a period of time.

[CT7]

Well, that worked!!;) :O

Should Air Nelson get contract pilots for training their training staff? I don't think there would be too many that would jump up and stamp their foot, As no jobs would be comprimised.

Is it a good idea; yes, I think it has merits. I've done just that in the past.

Do I think they should get permanent jobs over the current staff. No.

Some of you may think that seniority is an out moded way of promotion. Tough, it doesn't affect you.
It was hotly fought for by the staff there. And when it came, it was the first time that the staff could actually plan their life and have a life without bending over for an ungrateful boss at any and every opportunity.
People still have to perform to the required standards for promotion and commands are not given out "Willy-Nilly"

Will they source help for various elements of the introduction? Of course they will. And currently are.

767pilot: Jobs at hospitals are advertised, as such outside applicants are then called for.

I too have been F/O on a jet with more time on type and more Command time than the Capt (who had been in the company 13 odd yrs and it was their first Cmd). But all credit to that person, they sought assistance when required. Plus the training they got was pretty comprehensive.

Let Air Nelson get on with the job. They do a good job as it is and they have plenty of resources to call on if required. And I'm sure they will.

Just don't expect to waltz into a perm. Command.
I don't know if I should laugh or cry......... translated......
Just don't expect to get a permanent job.

Pharknose It will be equipped with the UNS-1E Super FMS.

[MOR]

SO what you are saying is, that I if I don't have my hair artificially curled, and I don't participate in formal dancing, I can expect a direct entry command...??? :cool:

[MOR]

No, no, no, that would be far too sensible! :rolleyes:

When I came back to NZ, I applied to Air Nelson. At that time I had about 8000 hours and quite a lot of jet time. The response was that until I had 50 hours recent NZ IF time, I wouldn't be considered.

I asked one of the (then) senior training captains why this was, and was told that "we have had problems with foreign pilots in NZ airspace".

I pointed out that I wasn't a foreign pilot, I was a Kiwi that had gone overseas. I had done all my training, instructing, and charter flying in NZ. I had done my Instrument Rating here and everything.

Didn't matter, he said.

I pointed out that for over ten years, I had been flying in the London, Ansterdam, Paris and Brussels TMAs, and had flown virtually everywhere in the busiest airspace in the world.

Didn't matter, he said.

I pointed out that NZ works to ICAO standards, and that there are only minor differences between the rules here and the rules in Europe.

So what, he said.

Well, I said, this 50 hours recent IF has no practical reason, does it? It is simply a device to keep returning Kiwi pilots out of the company, isn't it?

He agreed that this was indeed the point of it, and that it served us right for p*ssing off to Europe and "circumventing the system". He went on to say that loyal New Zealanders stayed in NZ and worked their way through the system, and these people would always have first dibs in Air Nelson. People like me were little better than scabs in their eyes.

This sort of thinking highlights the parochial nature of Air Nelson.

Of course Kiwi pilots who were unable to go to Europe will say "Yeah, bl**dy right, those are OUR jobs you b*stards". The rest of us know that the real world doesn't work like that, and outside the tiny bubble that is NZ aviation, nobody thinks like that either.

For that reason I would never work for Air Nelson. Any company that thinks like that is hardly professional. It makes you wonder what else they get up to. Don't get me wrong - I am not bitter about it, more mildly amused. I am doing something far better with my time now...

I'm sure I'll get the standard, irrational responses to this from the usual suspects. It would be nice to be able to discuss it rationally, but I realise the chances of that are slim... :confused:

Working overseas is a revelation, as you quickly learn that skill and experience speak the loudest, not perceived "loyalty to the NZ aviation scene" or anything silly like that. It doesn't really matter who you know, or whether you have spent years sycophantically hanging around your local commuter airline. In general, progress through and in the airlines in Europe is a far fairer and more transparent process.

New Zealand aviation needs to grow up. From regulation, to equipment, to operating and training philosophies, we are a long way behind other systems.

Discuss... :}

[BCF Breath]

MOR:
I thought you'd given up on the flying and are doing something else.

Same old bandwagon.

Build a bridge and get over it.

[MOR]

I am, but the point remains that it is a completely unprofessional way of going about things. As such it needs to be exposed and dealt with.

As much as you would l like to sweep it under the carpet, it remains a shining example of why NZ lags behind most of the rest of the aviation world.

[Shagtastic]

What a sad pathetic thread this has degenerated into!

It is a truth however in my opinion that some strange ideas (jealousy perhaps?) exist in NZ about those lucky enough to have flown overseas and seen how it's done in someones elses country, got the break they were looking and deserved.

Back to the Dash 8's.. the 200/300's are reliable old buses and slow, the Q400 is certainly much quicker and nicely overpowered but build quality um.. if it was a car you'd take it back within the first week for sure.

[chicken6]

Shagtastic, good point. It's always a shame to see a potentially good thread degenerate, so back to the rumours...

One ground course on at the moment, not quite full, some from March doing refreshers. All will be flying by Christmas.

Another ground course almost straight after this one, keep your phones on boys and girls, interviews will be in a couple of weeks. At least one round, probably two, some early next year as well.

And LOTS of training going on for the next six months after that, to create training capacity (training the trainers and supervisors). By lots I mean another two ground courses for SAABs as well as two for -8s.

Crikey, it's a wonder if there are going to be many 1500/500 hr pilots left in NZ. Last one out of GA turn out the lights.

[MOR]

It would surprise me that such attitudes, as previously mentioned, do exist towards NZers that go overseas in an airline the calibre of Air Nelson as it would be very misguided.

Sadly, they do, and I still have the letters from them that prove it.