At Balpa Conference Now - Your Views

[jamestkirk]

I am sitting in the lobby of the renaissance hotel just after the BALPA conference.

If you did not make it down here, you did'nt miss much.

There is some recruitment going on but not alot. Well you probably know that already.

The airlines still seem to be interested in integrated people and not modular. Still don't understand this way of thinking, but who am i to argue.

Apologies to everyone who did'nt pass the selection for the 747 JAL brighton pier simulator job. I eventually gave the Captain position to a frozen PPL holder with IMC. And the F/O position went to a recently captured Orang Utan (but he WAS an integrated student).

You can book your future sim rides with one of the above at any time Brighton Pier is open.

I am interested to hear from other attendees at the conference today on how you rated the day.

[B3av]

My ex girlfriend was at this event I think. Her current boyfriend works for the pilots union.

Sorry for being ignorant but would you mind explaining the difference between integrated and modular?

[Preppy]

Well, I thought it wasn't depressing! With approx 500 - 700 "new" jobs in the airline industry (2005), it was the most positive outlook since 9/11.

[Sky Goose]

Just got back now,

Dont mean to be pessamistic but I thought it was a bit of a downer.

There are allot of jobs out there but only if youve got the experience or type ratings.

What realy upset me was all the talk about intergrated being preffered to modular (2 airlines mentioned this), what the !!

City express also mentioned that to apply you have to have completed your course within the last 12 monthe and have flown 50hours in the last twelve months, well there goes another option, bugger ! In other words if you dont get hired ASAP youre stuffed, nice!

But on a better note I met a BA 747 captain who has to retire (55 years BA thing) and he gave me his e-mail address, said hed keep hes ears open.

So in conclusion fom a point of view of knowing more when I came out than when I was going in , not so shure, £50 would better be spent on a few cases of Belgian Wife Beater, but if you managed to get some networking done...who knows.

Good luck all and chin up.....:yuk:

no really good luck

cheers for now
Goose

[moku]

Yes I was there and have to agree that this year was a waste of £50. I know of one airline rep who also agreed that this year was not as good as last years.

A few of the presentations had funny moments with plenty of jokes at the expense of Ryanair. There was however one really BORRING one given by a young chap who seemed to be sucking plums at the same time as talking.. he presented a lot of info but delivered init in an extreamly boring way!! But good on him for getting up and giving it a go.
I felt that some of the presentations were rushed, but that is down to the time restraints but down by BALPA and the whole event did not seem as organised as the past years. But hey that is only my two cents worth.


At least they had good chocolates and cakes :)

Moku.

[MrBernoulli]

moku,

Would you be referring to the SFO from Britannia? If so, I agree, he did it all wrong. Comedy is not his strong suit .... and his presentation was somewhat canned and stilted. Hey, but he does have a pilot job at least!

[DysonDriver]

I agree with Preppy, 600-700 jobs is the best news that I have heard in a while!

The industry is on the move and that means us low houred guys and girls will be given a chance to move up the food chain. Fingers crossed.

Not quite sure it was worth £50 though.

Spoke to the Brit's (Thomsonfly) guy during the Lunch, he seemed very encouraging and said that they might be taking on a number of SO's early next year.

[timzsta]

I thought it was far from doom and gloom. If you want to work for BA or BA Citiexpress or GB or BMED then yes lots of hours and integrated is the best way. I hate to say it, because I am still a great fan of BA for it is dealing with the world we live in now far better then its rivals on the other side of the pond, but if I was an experienced 5000hr guy the operators that presented and made the best impression on me were people like Cathay, Dragonair and Virgin. I think many of us are still trying to decipher what poor old John Monks had to say (BA purchased more LHR slots but has no plans for growth???). BA will be back but it will never quite be what it was IMHO.


But plenty of other operators I spoke to were not so fussed about the integrated / modular issue.

If you came into this game with your heart set on getting a job with BA then you are going to be spending alot of time sitting around feeling sorry for yourself at the local flying club. I intend to be the FO of the aircraft from the smaller, perceivably less glamourous operator, taxing past your flying club as you cry into your tea....

Finally I thought Capt Robin Cox from Virgin stole the show at the end and told us all the attitude we need to take. If you want an aim for 10 years time then there it is - a job with Virgin which is an airline clearly going places.

[DysonDriver]

timzsta,

Likewise Virgin and Dragon sound good, but I could not hear a word that Oz chick was saying about Cathay.

I thought the BA and Britannia guy did the same presentation :zzz:

[ccatfanclub]

Sky Goose,

Maybe if you learnt to spell you would get a job a bit quicker?

Ha Ha

[joe]

Guys and girls,

Did anyone catch what thomascook had to say????????

Any info would be gratefully received.

Cheers Joe

[Snigs]

It just told me what I already knew that as a 500 hour pilot over the age of 35 that I'm in a black hole that no recruiters (I repeat no recruiters) are interested in looking into, and as such was a complete waste of £50.

Ohh, and that's another thing, when I first went to a BALPA conference it was FREE.............

[RVR800]

Yes I went a number of years ago '00 and there were about
70% people who put their hands up to the 'have been lookin
for more than a year' question reported in the log as most had been successful in the last year... duh:ugh:

[Spyke]

I think BALPA should be giving us more for our 50 quid.

With the current format, it would have been better spent on another hour in the log book. (Or inventing a age-reverser to get back under 30!!) :)

It's all very well BALPA getting together 20 or so airlines, but the format of the day needs completely reviewing. The presentations were ok - it's never easy standing up in front of 400 people telling them they're not wanted. But the bun fight/queue to be told you've: not enough hours/too old/not integrated is a complete waste of time.

Why not provide the prospective employers a list of all attendees, grouped and sorted by experience - preferably a few days in advance. If they spot someone they like the look of - have a quick chat on the day and invite them to interview. It can't be a best use of time to try and get 400 people queueing up to see the same people to be told the same thing, over and over.

The timing of the conference needs reviewing too: Many operators said they hadn't yet got their plans together for Summer 2005, so couldn't give any useful recruitment figures. Maybe the EOC needs to be mid-Nov instead?

Summary: Waste of £50 plus parking, plus petrol, plus time. But with a few refinements, could be a very useful day.

[Biscuit]

Hang on Hang on!!

I only remember one speaker saying he preferred integrated. He also said they would accept applications from modular students and review them individually. Also, if I remember correctly, the particular employer in question was only going to recruit a v.small handful of fATPLs anyway! So, to be honest, it was nothing to worry about.

And another thing, the fair number of good jobs available for 2/3000 hours guys with the flash airlines will free up quite a few jobs I would imagine at the lower end for us wannabees!!

I agree it wasn't fantastic and my £50 quid may well have been better invested at the bar, however, the outlook wasn't too bad to be fair...

Biscuit

[jamestkirk]

Concerning the presentations.

Robin Cox (virgin) was very good at presenting, especially as it was short notice for him.

Most of the other guys were dull and plodding. That's ok, because unless you present for a living, it is difficult.

What i fond funny, was some of the guys asking questions after a one or two of the presentations and said;

" thanks for that interesting and enjoyable presenation"

- why did'nt they go up on stage with their CV and perform certain acts to get attention.

Desperation can do funny things to people - I'm talking from experience!

[Sky Goose]

Hey dude, its not my fault, theres no spell checker on this site !

Was there any usefull info at the end of those long q's.

I didnt bother as I was the only bloke there no in a suit...mabey its time I took this job hunting malarkey more seriously....what happened to the days when pilots wore jeans and leather jackets ?

[Chuffer Chadley]

Hey dude, its not my fault, theres no spell checker on this site !

What has the world come to?

[Sky Goose]

Crazy place !!!
Next thing you know, well be responsible for our own actions !!

[ccatfanclub]

Sky Goose,

.....And I waisted all those years in school learning to spell. All the time those busy bees at microsoft were making a spell checker, why did I bother?

Remind me not to get on your plane. It'll be the FMCs fault when we end up in Timbuktu but at least you'll have jeans and T-shirt on though like a real pilot

[ChocksAwayUK]

what happened to the days when pilots wore jeans and leather jackets ?

Quite. Well done you.

And spelling doesn't come as naturally to some people as it does to others.. never affected anyone's ability as a pilot.

[TRon]

These employment conferences are always f limited value. Wannabes, fine. They are more aimed at the 'experienced' guy. i.e. those with 1-2000 hours and type rating. The wannabes in my opinion make up the numbers, sorry I mean cash, for each year. I know as I certainly contributed.

Certainly worth a visit, once maybe, just to enjoy the hot stuffy room.

[Malc]

I thought it was better than expected. If there are actually more than 700 positions being advertised, as was commented on during the day, this has to be good news - 700 is much better than none.

Even if some of the requirements are for more than 4000 hours total time, doesn't that mean that someone with 4000 hours might apply, then their job will be opened up to, say, someone with more than 3000 hours....and so on until at the bottom of the food chain there's some openings for folks without thousands of hours experience.

Maybe this is just rampant naivety getting the better of me, but it works for me.

[Megaton]

Rampant naivety may not be too bad a description! There weren't anything like 700 jobs on offer. The few real jobs that were discussed were either for young, integrated or experienced high hour pilots with ratings. Given that there were nearly 400 BALPA members in the room and that the majority of unempoyed/in-training pilots almost certainly didn't attend there's an awful lot of competition out there for very few jobs. If you've borrowed £60K and you're "lucky" enough to land a F/O TP job you'll be paying the loan back for the rest of your life. Don't wish to be too pessimistic but if you're looking for your first job you better hope you're integrated, under 30 with first time passes in your IR (and preferably exams too). I know there are always exceptions and you could, of course, buy a type rating but how much debt can one man stand. I think some of the schools are irresponsible in taking money from people who have little real chance of getting a job (perhaps including me :{ ). We're all doooomed!:ouch:

[zorrotfb]

.....And I waisted all those years in school learning to spell.

Did they teach you irony as well ?

[ChocksAwayUK]

Maybe if you learnt to spell you would get a job a bit quicker?

Ha Ha

....And I waisted all those years in school learning to spell

Haha.. prat. :ok:

[jaarrgh]

I just want to point out that the value of the conference is greater than simply an airline saying they want pilots. Seeing as the industry is run on personal contacts and recomendations it represents an incredible opportunity. You are able to catch up with people that you have worked with or trained with or knew in a past life and the people they know and so on.... As they succeed so they may well remember and recommend you when they move on, and hence that is your 'in'.

[ccatfanclub]

ChocksAwayUK,

You must be next after sky goose on the airlines most wanted employee list. Am I upsetting you pulling your boyfriend up on his spelling? Ask anyone who checks cover letters or CVs to find out what the number one reason is that they end up in the bin, spelling.

I've checked your previous posts and see that you're a nosey little wannabe, sticking your snout in left right and center. Leave the more complex topics up to us big boys please.

Regarding your previous post. I never said that spelling has anything to do with your pilot ability. Do you have an inferiority complex?

Good luck with the ATPLs....prat:ooh:

[ChocksAwayUK]

Oh, i'm sorry. I really didn't mean to upset you. I was only joking. It just seemed a bit rich to criticize someone else's spelling when you can't spell yourself, that's all. :ok:

I'm sorry if it's wrong for a lowly wannabe to be showing an interest in the interview/jobs etc forum.. i just find it useful.

I think it's quite clear that the person you were having a go at suffers from dyslexia hence my "spelling doesn't come as naturally to some as to others" comment. I'm sure when it comes to matters such as CVs etc then spelling can be checked, i presume that's what you'll have to do as well.

Again, sorry to upset you.

edit: I'm sure the bile that consumes you with 2/3 of all your posts stands you good stead to make a great pilot:

Prior Posts (http://www.pprune.org/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=1187214)

Thank god for interviews and psychometric testing otherwise we might end up with people like you flying passenger aircraft. *phew*

[Sky Goose]

Im really sorry about the spelling thing, I didnt realise that I would blow my chances of an airline job if I misspelled something on pprune, thank for the warning.
When it comes to CV's I do take more care (duh !!).

I hope thats put your mind at ease.

ps. I promise to buy a suit aswell, with the money I get from selling my leather jacket...big boy

pps: one thing not to forget about being a pilot is that after spelling, ability to wear a nice fitting suit and programming the FMC (to avoid Timbuktu) one also needs to get on with the bloke next to you, so ease up on the bashing.
You wouldn't want people to think you were an otherwise sort of chap, I would think that does alot more to harm your carrer than a misspelled word somewhere in the mountains of pre and post flight paperwork.

Just my 2pee worth.

cheers

[ccatfanclub]

Sorry boys, you're both right.

Spelling, looking smart and programing the FMC aren't that important if youre a stand up chap!!:yuk:

I'll make more of an effort from now on.

(bet you're busy PMing yourselves to death now with how much you love eachother.Meet at the balpa conference did you??)

[Sky Goose]

Ill let you have the last word....I think were beging to bore people with this ccat fight.

ps never met the other bloke, but sounds like a nice chap

[jaarrgh]

c'mon guys group hug now........all together;)

[itchy kitchin]

Right you lot.
This is not about who can spell and who can't.
All of you who are drowning in pessimism can go elsewhere. We pilots who are looking for a first job should be pulling together and sharing experiences and information.
I found the Con to be invaluable. It gives us a picture of what the airlines are looking for. Do we not need to know that? A lot of the reps said to me that qualifications and hours are not the B all and end all, but if your face fits, then there is a chance. Also, there was a wealth of information to be gleaned there, not just making contacts, but by talking to each other as well. The opportunities are out there guys, we need to look outwardly, be prepared to go the extra mile and be flexible.

And remember: Nobody owes us a living. That dream job will not fall into our laps. Spend at least 1 hour a day mailing CV's, getting on the blower and working towards your own future.

Good Luck To All! Remember what the man said: If you want it badly enough, it'll happen.

...but i do agree that Britannia bloke's joke was corny! Didn't stop an application going off yesterday though!

[A and C]

Don't worry about the laggs on this website there is always some under brained public school boy who has been "educated" far past there ability by daddys money and all they can do is try to get "one up" on you for a spelling error or two, it makes them feel important you know !.

The small minded plum voiced pond life usualy fall by the wayside sooner or later , they did when I was a wannabe and I'm sure it's the same today.

As you can see I still can't spell but sitting in the left seat of a B737 I don't give a damm what these people might think or say.

[flying jocks]

can anyone fill in the blanks for the airline representatives:

BA - John Monks
BACitiexpress - Ian Cheese
Thomas cook -
BMed - Mick Crosby
Dragonair - Tim Watts
Cathay Pacific - Clare Delaney
Channel Express - Nick Hayter
Excel Airways - Gerry Crumbie
Flightline -
BMIBaby -
Britannia - Leo Nugent (who was the other chap Nick ??)
First Choice -
Flybe -

Any info, greatly appreciated:ok:

[itchy kitchin]

Jocks,

Thomas Cook: Adrian Richards
Flightline: Kevin "Bloody" Wilson
BmiBaby: Tim Berry
FirstChoice: John Murphy
FlyBe: Don Derby or Mike Wood

Hoping that helping!
Regards from the Kitchin (and before the spelling police jump, Kitchin is spelt that way for a reason. One that i shall not impart!)

[Sky Goose]

Cheers A and C, I was starting to think I was a bit too casual for the modern airline industry.

Kitchin - dont know so much about the conference being that valuable but do agree that we must help each other and send CV's, somethings gotta give eventually...right?

cheers

[Leo Nugent]

Hi Guys and girls,

Critique re: my presentation dually noted, plums and all! £50 to listen to that drivel!

The reason for my post is to point out that Thomsonfly (Britannia Airways) will still take on Second Officers (modular or integrated) in the future. As to when we do depends on the the rate of expansion of our new bases in Bournemouth, Coventry and Robin Hood.

The job market in general is looking better and given what the other airlines had to say future prospects for job seekers seem excellent.

For those whom took the time to speak to Nick, Geoff and I after the presentations, thanks very much. Most of you I meet seemed to have the drive and determination to become successful airline pilots.

Best of Luck

[itchy kitchin]

Mr Nugent,

I'm GUILTY! Yes, i did have a "pop" about the bad joke! Only because it is usually I who am criticized for bad jokes and it is better to have the comments "outgoing" and not "incoming" for a change! Sorry.

Anyway, I did talk to your colleage (I think it was Geoff?) and found him to be very frank. So duly, an application is on its way, and as told, i am expecting to have it rejected. But at least you'll have it on file and will know who i am when i phone you up every couple of months or so! I am hoping that you'll get tired of me enquiring and say: "Somebody interview this guy, at least to stop him calling us!"

Thanks again for the presentation. Do you have a military backround? (just asking, as a couple of us thought you were ex-airforce)


SkyGoose,
You would be suprised about airline types ability to remember your face. If you were to turn up at an FBO and bump into one of the chaps (or chap-esses) that you spoke to at the con, i bet they would remember you. That's why they call it "getting your face known". If you go to interview and it's a toss up between you and A. N. Other similarly qualified candidate, and the Chief Pilot saw your countenance at something like... ooh, off the top of my head, the Balpa Con- who will get the job?

Sorry, that doesn't mean to sound sarcastic- I'm just trying to get a point across. You see what i mean though?

recherche le kitchin

[Sky Goose]

I get your point, I shall concede defeat. I suppose If I get a job as you describe due to recognition than £50 would be well spent.

I didnt mean the conference was a waste of time, just at £50 quid, I was questioning weather it was worth while. If it was a tenner or so Id say it was a day well spent.

But I get your point, just a bit bummed on the day, hence the sour grapes.

Thanks for the feedback Leo, will get back on track and get the CV's rolling again, the prize is too big to give it up.

cheers all (even you ccat, no more banter ?)

[itchy kitchin]

SkyGoose,
No need to concede defeat!
I got home that evening feeling a little despondant too, but it wasn't till i sad down looked at the notes i had made, read the blurb and digested all that had been said that i started to feel more optimistic. (Yes, the glass is always half full...)

"If we're all facing the same direction, all we gotta do is keep walking..."
D. Brent

nil desperandum som kitchina

[Leo Nugent]

Itchy- No not ex-forces. Joined Britannia as an S.O from Oxford having finished a modular course.

Getting a foot hold in this industry is hard work, but once you are on the ladder things change quickly.

[itchy kitchin]

On the subject of Modular Vs Integrated, do you think there really is a preference for Integrated Students? I have seen the question come up a few times on app forms...

Me? I was Integrated until Pilot Assist went to the great recievers in the sky and then i went modular... (sigh)

[Leo Nugent]

Itchty- At Thomsonfly we value the individual more than any particular training format. The 3 stage selection process is an excellent tool for us to identify the type people we want. I know several people who failed at stage 2 (math's, english, etc) only to reapply 6 months later to become successful.

Off to Malta now. Cheers

[JB007]

Blimey Ham Phisted!

I don't agree with any of your comments and you can't afford to think like that, believe me, it isn't reality - to succeed you need bundles of self confidence to sell yourself as better than the other guy and get through the interview processes...let alone what is required to get through a type rating of a decent aircraft...

I know 9/11 seems long ago now, but I was told by a well resepected airline senior flight ops manager in the December of 2001, that it would be 2004 before any sign of an upturn would come along - well, I think it's started, lots of positive things going on...hang on in there chap!

Cheers
JB007

[itchy kitchin]

Thanks Leo!

Have a good trip and don't make the Maltese Cross (see, i told you my jokes were bad!)

[tom24]

Off to Malta now

Are you sure about that?

[Leo Nugent]

Tom 24,

On the ball as always! It's Monastir on the 757.

[Megaton]

JB007,

Thank you for the words of encouragement. I had a successful interview the week before the conference and will shortly be attending a sim assessment but I stand by my earlier posting. For some, sheer bloody-mindedness will get them that elusive first interview but, for many, it will never happen. I am fortunate that I have had a great deal of support from friends in the industry (including one who occasionally flies for the same organization as yours, I believe :) ); however, I feel for the majority who are not connected or do not have the funds to type-rate.

I am quite nervous about my forthcoming sim assessment because I am acutely aware I may be supping at the last chance saloon! With interviews so thin on the ground, you really can't afford to let them slip through your fingers.

Wish me luck. :eek:

[boeingbus2002]

Leo,
Whats Thomsonfly's views on recency. BACX for example wanted 50 hrs in last 12 months. After training, this isnt a problem. But for those a year or two out of training its difficult unless in some flying job (instructing etc). I can understand why there is a preference for "current" pilots, but would you be in a serious disadvantage if your recently flying hours is "low"....very low!?
Many thanks

[JB007]

You'll be fine HP - I wish you all the best.

I haven't spoken to JA for a while, give him my regards when you speak to him, i'd love to fly with him some day.

Have you thought of buying a few hours on an FNPT II sim for some practice...or maybe JA can get you a good deal at Cranebank on a B737 or something....???

Let me know if you and the Reds are at BLK again sometime...

Cheers
JB

[Megaton]

JB007

Looks like we've both been rumbled!

I leave the Team in a few weeks but will see JA next week for game of golf and few beers.

[Leo Nugent]

We have no specific currency requirements for S.O's. Whilst it is nice to "keep your hand in" we appreciate the high cost involved for little benefit. The same applies to the IR.

Please Private Message me for any further questions. I shall try to reply quickly, but have just found out that several of my friends have died in the MK 747 crash in Halifax.

[Lee-a-Roady Moor]

Interesting comments.

Was at the conference last year - hadn't been for a while prior to that but considered last year that things may be on the up. Alas, it was a complete waste of money, including the additional cost of overnight accommodation in one of the nearby hotels.

Majority there were low hours people and therefore not of interest to the major airlines who were seeking experience; and the majority of companies represented were jet operators. A few turbo operators but they were in the minority.

The sums just didn't add up - airlines looking for lots of experience targeting an audience who have very little experience. It seemed more like an advertising forum for the various airlines, as well as a fund raising opportunity for the "sponsors", rather than an opportunities conference.

The format is a little tired and sad looking at this stage, with very little in return for the expense to the individual.

While I accept the industry is improving, I didn't consider attending this year, as I felt the format would be identical, and that very little *real* opportunities would be realised.

Reading the various posts, I think I was correct. *And* I have the cash in my backpocket!