EC135 / 145 Winching

[GameCube]

Anybody done / doing any winching with an EC135 or 145?

Good? Bad? Indifferent?

Any info appreciated.

[Helinut]

Hi, GC

Can't help you I am afraid,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

but I am curious why you want to know - you don't work for the Met do you :) :)

What do the walk-on freight think about hanging from wires ................. :E :E

[GameCube]

A friend is putting together a presentation on general UK Police Air Support / HEMS / SAR and is expecting questions along the lines of 'Why don't Police / HEMS carry a winch?' 'What about the future?' etc.... He has the usual answers but is keen to be prepared and is interested in exploring the subject and gaining opinions.

I'm not Met but do I sense a story there?!

The Self Loading Cargo are keen to develop but are all aware that getting into something like that involves more than just strapping a few kilo's of wire to the side of the aircraft. General feeling is that it is unlikey to happen in UK HEMS / Police as the requirement is filled by current SAR resources.

There was some talk a few years ago about fixed line's which scared everyone to death!:sad:

[Thomas coupling]

Curious? Tell us more of what your friend knows:suspect:

We considered fitting a winch to our EC135 in 1997. So too did Dyfed Powys. Problem then was the CAA. They wanted to make the police officer a crew man with associated paperwork, medicals, FDP limits, log books etc!!
Eventually we were overtaken by events, in that it was discovered very soon that the EC135 in police role can't comply with CAA perf requirements to hover on 1 engine while winching. There were performance issues during training and the coup de grace was: weight and Cof G issues. A non starter I'm afraid for Uk police Ops. You'll need an EC145 and police observer crewpersons, I'm afraid.

[tecpilot]

@GameCube

Hi what do you want to know especially?

Most European Police EC 135/145 are winch equipped. Winching is absolutely normal compared with other ships. The new winch for the EC 135 with 90m cable is in use in North-Italia. In the HEMS business the winch is not so common because both ships needs an additionally winch operator and his weight added to the winch weight is needed for payload in greater altitude.

[GameCube]

TC

Thanks for that. I'm sure there's a pretty high headache factor when it comes to starting something like this and your experience has confirmed it.

I don't think think anything particular has prompted the question. Police and HEMS units are often asked 'Why?' when they have to request SAR when a winch is required and he wants to show he's looked into it when he answers.

Also, winching a stretchered patient into a 135 looks like it would be a little tight (that's before looking at the performance limitations) and we were wondering how people got on.

Thanks for your post Tech. The Italians were featured on some of the 135 winching images you see on the Eurocopter bumpf. I'd imagine the extra weight of the winch would be a pain even at low altitudes (Hot day, roof-top pad, big patient, medical escort.....how do I unbolt this winch?!!!)

[Bomber ARIS]

Ask Autorotate

I seem to remember he did an article on a French marine pilot transfer unit that used a winch equipped 135. He's probably still got the pictures

[Eurobolkow]

Gamecube: 'A friend is putting together a presentation on general UK Police Air Support / HEMS / SAR and is expecting questions along the lines of 'Why don't Police / HEMS carry a winch?'

Why only ask for the capability of winch work with 135/145? To complete the picture you shouldhave asked for info on the 902 and 109 also bearing in mind that no one uses the 145 in the UK for Police/HEMS or SAR work.

Also the Agusta Grand could be ideal for winch work with its performance capabilities and 1.4m sliding cabin door.

[Woolf]

Evening,


There was some talk a few years ago about fixed line's which scared everyone to death!


Not so scary at all. This technique is used quite succesfully on the continent (Europe) on EC135's. Especially in the mountains, operators cannot afford the weight and space penalty of a winch operator. If necessary the Paramedic and Emergency Physician are flown in as "underslung Load". They stabilize the patient and put him into the stretcher. Helicopter picks them up and lands at a suitable location nearby where the patient is treated further and transferred into the inside.

This is even done with variable lenght line where the paramedic can abseil down from a 10m fixed line at his "leisure" for another 80m without having to move the helicopter (used for ravines or very steep slopes).

Takes a bit of extra time to rig up the line and to transfer the patient inside but certainly not a bad solution.


http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/data/christophorus/webuse/AAA_Taubergung8_2.jpg


Regards,

Woolf

[tecpilot]

Also, winching a stretchered patient into a 135 looks like it would be a little tight (that's before looking at the performance limitations) and we were wondering how people got on.

You are right, it's a tricky operation but possible. But don't forget the 135 is a small twin and nearly all small twins have that problem. Therefore the crew decides if the helicopter have to turn to the next usable landing site or if the stretcher have to come into the cabin. And ... the procedure depends on the cabin interior. Most police and HEMS ships have a lot of interior like racks, seats, ... .

Woolf is absolutely right. Fixed line is a safe and proven procedure! Have made hundreds of fixed lines including really rescue missions. Most civil HEMS operators don't have so much rescue missions with the need of a winch. They don't need a winch, the additionally winch weight, the weight of the winch operator and his monthly costs. The police units doesn't have the same problem. Normally they have enough paid personal like technicians, FLIR operators or other missions specialists ready to arm the winch.
Austria is the leading EC 135 country with more than 20 ships in this small country. They tested the winch in the Alps but use today only the fixed line.
Air Zermatt in Switzerland holds a EC 135 with winch. But the ships is nearly empty for winch ops.

Short haul in tricky area is much cheaper with more possible performance, but needs much more pilot (crew) skills compared to winch ops. Therefore the operators have more training costs.
One other advantage is the greater load on the fixed line. In the Alps they lift up to 6 persons at once with the EC 135 (partial fuel)and fixed line for example on skilift evacuations.

[GameCube]

Not suggesting fixed line is dangerous and irresponsible!!!! Just that the 'underslung loads' themselves were a little wary. You've got to feel a little isolated down there!

I asked about 135 / 145 as they are currently seen as the units future and therefore what we should reasonably be expecteed to know about....But you're right, info on any aircraft would be important.

The big question has got to be 'Is it worth it?' Police or HEMS units would have to make some compromises that would affect their core operations. Should they stick to those core op's and leave the winching to SAR or would the public be receiving a better service if we were all winch equipped?

Cheers for the info so far,

Game

[NickLappos]

Fixed lines certainly work, guys, and the ability to do fast extractions should be part of every helo's emergency kit (along with a way to quickly cut those lines, of course.)

The idea that single engine hover is a CAA constraint on a rarely performed emergency operation is an example of over-regulation, for sure. "Sorry mister drowning man, you can't be lifted because you might get hurt if my engine quits while I am hosting you, so just tread water for another half hour!"

Look at the heroic rescue of those folks from the Air Florida crash in Washington DC to realize what a great help a well-flown helo can be in emergencies.

Here is an example of routine fixed string operations - a McGuire rig extraction of an Army Ranger patrol in Vietnam:

The pickup:

http://www.s-92heliport.com/rig1.jpg

The ride home starts:

http://www.s-92heliport.com/rig2.jpg

The site is one maintained by a friend, Mike Gustin, here is the home page, see the photos there, dozens of great ones of helos at work:
http://www.dtroop.com

[[email protected]]

Gamecube- a civilian SAR operation is being set up in Jersey and has bought a 145 for the job - they do not need to comply with CAA regs and will winch and have NVG.

[JimL]

Nick et al:

There is no requirement for single-engine hover for operational lifts in HEMS or SAR. Specifically for HEMS this is spelled out in Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(d) in the following paragraphs:(a)(6) HEMS operating site. A site selected by the commander during a HEMS flight for HHO, landing and take off (See ACJ to Appendix 1 to 3.005(d), sub-paragraph 7); and

(c)(2)(i)(B) Helicopters conducting operations to/from a HEMS operating site located in a hostile environment shall as far as possible be operated in accordance with Subpart G (Performance Class 1). The commander shall make every reasonable effort to minimise the period during which there would be danger to helicopter occupants and persons on the surface in the event of failure of a power unit (See ACJ to Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(d) sub-paragraph (c)(2)(i)(B)).

[tecpilot]

The big question has got to be 'Is it worth it?' Police or HEMS units would have to make some compromises that would affect their core operations. Should they stick to those core op's and leave the winching to SAR or would the public be receiving a better service if we were all winch equipped?

It's a question to your goverment or your officials! Situation isn't the same in every country. We have countries in Europe with "specialised" HEMS and Police Units and we have Police units doing the cop job and the ambulance or HEMS missions.

In the most european countries it seems to me that the cops today and especially in the future will do the special "law and order" jobs. The most of the new delivered ships are special equipped with FLIR, NVG, lasersystems, radios, link and transmitting systems and so on. They could be used for HEMS jobs but the ships are heavy (the new german border guard EC 135 have more than 17km wire inside for all possible equipment) and it needs time to remove the specials. That makes no sense in a country good covered with civil HEMS operators and army SAR units.

Compromises could be possible but with compromises you can't get the absolutely best results.

Rumour going on the short haul should be described in JAR-OPS 4 as HHEC (Helicopter Human External Cargo).