BBC reporting Kinloss Nimrod going to aid of sub.

[Navaleye]

It didn't mention its nationality. Any rumours we can circulate? 201?

[callsign Metman]

BBC now reports sub as probable Canadian. Wonder if it's one of the ones they recently got from us.
Hope all is OK.

CM

[Ian Corrigible]

Hope it's not an Upholder, or this is going to be very embarrassing...

:ooh:

I/C

[Jackonicko]

Why would they send the B-team (120 or 201), when 206 (the A-team) are available? If 206 need more crew, my Dad's up for it, he says, and it's only 60 years since he first joined them......

[Razor61]

It is being reported that it's an Upholder that was handed over to the Canadians on Saturday.
It is 100 miles NW of Ireland with an electrical fault. Fire has apparently swept through the submarine with some crew members needing emergency treatment for smoke.

A Nimrod and Sea King are enroute the area and HMS Montrose is also aiding i believe.

Razor

[Duckbutt]

Apparently its HMCS Chicoutimi, formerly HMS Upholder.

[Archimedes]

Yes, it's one of the splendidly reliable Upholders, now named HMCS Chicoutimi.

As well as the Nimrod, HMS Montrose is on the way, along with RFA Wave Knight.

Edit - Ah. Beaten to it!

[Razor61]

Update:-

RAF Valley Sea King is being re-tasked and is asked to go enroute to Ronaldsway, IOM and await tasking via landline.
RAF Wattisham Sea King is enroute to Lyneham with 2 divers onboard.
RN Sea King from Prestwick is currently at Ballykelly picking up portable radio gear for the Sub to use.
RAF Sea King from Chivenor is currently airborne from Lossiemouth and enroute. (bloody long way!)

The Nimrod has been asked to ask the submarine the status of the steerage, water tight integrity and how many people onboard.

Razor

[Navaleye]

This wouldn't be the same HMS Upholder that BWoS turned into a harbour queen to get the other three going would it? The same one the Canadians bitched about as being of sub-standard quality only last week and demanding compensation? Oh it is!

[bad livin']

Enough of all that - at least there are only three smoke inhalation casualties reported, and she's a conventional boat so that's one less large worry at any rate.

Canadia ay!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Was it sold " as seen" or were the Canadian's wise enought to ensure it had a 3 month warranty:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Navaleye]

Abiw, Yes there was a warranty. This is now the subject of negotation between the contractor and the Canadian equiv of the DPA.

[J.A.F.O.]

Edited to express my condolences to the family of the sailor who will not be returning home.

[Ian Corrigible]

Especially like the fact that BAE Systems chose today to announce an $8.6 million support contract for the class.

:(


Edited in light of the news of a fatality - I/C

[Blacksheep]

Nautical tradition says that you can't change a ship's (or presumably a boat's) luck by changing its name. Upholder is nearly thirty years old, what would one expect of a vessel of such antiquity?

Edited to say that I stand corrected below by Mad_Mark. Launched in 1983 delivered in 1986, so that should read 'nearly 20 years old', not 30 - although Upholder was mothballed from 1993. The original design dates back to 1973 and used railway locomotive diesel engines to keep costs down. These engines were not designed or capable of being started or stopped rapidly. Meanwhile the electric motors were prone to exploding into flames if put into reverse with forward speed remaining. To put it simply, once the boat was up to speed it was impossible to stop quickly - no brakes! These design deficiencies were the subject of modifications after entry into service so they presumably are not involved in this unfortunate incident that has cost one crew member his life.:(

[Navaleye]

I thought she was launched early/mid 90s, she's not that old and with low mileage to boot. Just not very well built that's all.

[November4]

nearly thirty years old, what would one expect of a vessel of such antiquity

As much of aircraft that are that age and much older.....?

[Mad_Mark]

HMS Upholder

Laid down - Nov 83
Launched - Dec 86
Commissioned - Jun 90
Decommissioned - Apr 94


The Upholder Class was a victim, allegedly, of the 1993 Defence Review. In reality the MOD realised what a bag of s#!t they were and decided to get rid! In Apr 98 Canada agreed to lease-to-buy the 4 Upholder Class submarines from the UK (suckers :ooh: ). The first, HMCS Victoria (ex-HMS Unseen), was delivered to Halifax in Oct 00.


Mad Mark!!! :mad:

[bad livin']

The pleasure of owning the oldest nuclear boat in the world also belongs to us...

Casualties now reported 9. Not so good.

[mbga9pgf]

Honest questions,

how much did the canadians pay for the boats?

Where have the been since they were "chopped" before selling?


Did the Canadians inspect the boats before handing over the moolah?

[Archimedes]

More here (http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/10/06/newhmcschicoutimi041006.html); this includes a sidebar with details of how much the boats cost.

[Jackonicko]

"The Upholder Class was a victim, allegedly, of the 1993 Defence Review. In reality the MOD realised what a bag of s#!t they were and decided to get rid!"

At one time these were sposed to be the best thing since sliced bread. Quieter than nukes and better suited to post Cold War type littoral ops, special forces insertion, etc. But not as sexy as having another couple of Vanguards.....

Or that was what Jane's Fighting Ships, JDW and everyone else kept saying.

Was that wrong?

[ORAC]

BBC:

A crewman has died after he was injured aboard the stricken Canadian submarine drifting in the Atlantic after a fire.
Lt Chris Saunders was one of three men airlifted to hospital in Ireland from HMCS Chicoutimi on Wednesday evening. The others are said to be stable.

Canada's PM Paul Martin said he "gave his life serving his country and we owe his family our deepest condolences".......

The Ministry of Defence said the injured men were being flown aboard a Royal Navy helicopter to Londonderry in Northern Ireland, but had to divert to Sligo in the Irish Republic when Lt Saunders' condition deteriorated. The combat systems engineer was one of nine crew members who had suffered from smoke inhalation during the fire.

"A medical decision based on his condition was taken to put down in Sligo," a spokesman said. "The helicopter landed as quickly as it could." .......

RIP
------------------------------------------------------------------

Earlier, a Canadian commander said the damage on the submarine was more extensive than first thought. Commander of the Canadian Atlantic fleet, Commodore Tyrone Pile, said two fires had broken out causing damage which had prevented them from restoring the submarine's power propulsion system.

"Significant damage" was also caused to the commanding officer's cabin and the electrical equipment room, on separate decks.

Captain Mike Finney of the Royal Navy......said: "The early indications of the situation on board Chicoutimi [are] that the problem is nothing to do with any technical aspect, the design or build."

???????????

[Ripline]

BBC News was saying that the 2nd fire was in, or very close to, an oxygen generator plant.

Jiminy.

The possibility of an oxygen-fed underwater fire doesn't bear thinking about. I'm impressed that the crew were able to save the boat, definately hats off to them.

Nothing to do with the accident, but I got the sense that the deal was partly in exchange for making training areas in Canada available to UK armed services rather than for cash.

Ripline

[[email protected]]

The real unanswered question is why the 3 injured crewmembers were not taken off the sub on Tuesday evening - both Valley and Prestwick had SAR helicopters sat waiting at Ballykelly for the word to go. Instead the poor sod that died was left for nearly 24 hours until Wednesday afternoon and then collapsed in the conning tower just before winching - he could have been in hospital by midnight on Tuesday. The captain of the sub would appear to have some questions to answer. Yes the weather was not great at the time, it was 20G30 and 15 - 20 ' seas but lots of people have been winched off much trickier things than a sub in much worse conditions.

[Navaleye]

The crew would have been well trained for just this event. I would hazard a guess that the death could have come from carbon monoxide poisoning from burning cables etc.

I'm not aware of any criticism levelled at the Upholders when in RN service, formally or otherwise.

The problems encountered by BWoS in reactivating them explains why we have no reserve fleet or standby squadron any more. The best way to keep something serviceable is to keep it running. That goes for a/c as well.

[BEagle]

The Sunday Times reported today:

"Senior British naval sources said last week that Upholder had been known to have problems with its power and electrical systems. “There were issues with the power distribution system including the switchboard in at least Upholder if not all of the class (of submarines),” said the naval source.

The defence documents, released under Canadian freedom of information laws, reveal that the four-year refit of the Chicoutimi by BAE Systems had been a “logistical and mechanical nightmare” and that the submarine had been cannibalised for spares."

Somehow I just knew that 't Bungling Baron had to have been involved in this sorry saga!

Hopefully the boat will soon be back in port - and the questions will begin.

RIP Lt Chris Saunders.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Summary (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/rn/content.php3?page=1&article=829)

Perhaps this page (http://www.btinternet.com/~warship/Postwar/Submarines/upholder.htm) will help provide some background information.

[bad livin']

I saw a couple of Chicoutimi guys I recognised from the memorial service out walking around today looking very sombre indeed. I hope some way to prevent further incident can be found here and that more effort goes into that process than nailing anyone that might singularly be deemed responsible.

[ppf]

Just found this:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/10/15/Chicoutimilog_041015.html

ppf :(

[polyglory]

Lots of info flying around, this is another version.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041015.wsubhat16/BNStory/Front

I reckon the RCN will get to the bottom of it and publish the results.

[joe2812]

News that the Canadian government is thinking of suing ours. Can they honestly do that?

[Navaleye]

I would have thought that if they sued anyone it would be BWoS. Then they would have to prove a material breach of contract etc. I doubt it will go that far, these things are usually sorted out amicably. Buyer beware as always.

[Mad_Mark]

Especially considering they surely took her out on sea trials and gave her a good going over before accepting her into their inventory.

Mad Mark!!! :mad:

[Trumpet_trousers]

...according to a small article in today's Times, the Canadians have cleared the RN/BWoS from any blame. Apparently, some of the sub's crew have reported hatches in the conning tower being left open, thereby causing seawater to get into the Capt's cabin and causing a short-circuit and subsequent fire.

[stuk]

Trumpet Old Chap.
What a silly post. Don't want facts and truth to get in the way of the usual ill informed comment and wild theories plus general slagging off directed at Baron Hardupp of BWoS. What will our correspondents be able t put in?

[Navaleye]

Hmnnn. I would have thought it common sense not have both hatches open. The CO obviously had a good reason - but his actions endangered his boat and cost the life of one of his crew. In the RN this would have gone to a Courts Martial for sure.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Board of Inquiry report here (http://www.vcds.forces.gc.ca/boi_chicoutimi/pubs/t-of-c_e.asp).

[Navaleye]

Unfortunate. 2,000 litres of sea water and sensitive electrical equipment don't mix well.

[Icecap]

Interesting Report. It's a shame that the Helo evacuation was delayed. even though the report states the outcome would probably not have differed. Whilst not denying the Captain his command responsibilities, he should really leave it up to the professionals (the SAR Helo crew) to determine whether or not a transfer was possible. No harm having a look.....

[vecvechookattack]

Im not so sure. It takes a big decision for the captain of a Submarine to get on the Radio and shout "Mayday". He would have thought long and hard about that one. His priority would be to safe the ship first and then sort out the casualties.

Whatever, that period of time wuold have the most difficult few hours in that young Captains career.

[Icecap]

I quite agree, and the Captain faced an unenviable task which I for one would not have liked. However, it's easy to turn a helo around if it's not required, and the helo crew remain the best judges of what is and what is not possible. There was a classic example in the Falklands where a rescue attempt was delayed for over 12 hours whilst everybody (ie everybody except the helo crew) debated whether or not a winch transfer from a civvy cruise ship was possible - this based on the opinion of the RN doctor on the cruise ship who thought "it would be too difficult".

[Onan the Clumsy]

Blacksheep here are some links on how to mitigate the consequences of changing the name of a seagoing vessel


Here's one (http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/naming.html) with some other useful information

Here's the correct procedure for renaming (http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/rename.htm)

And another (http://www.48north.com/mr_offline/denaming.htm)

Here's a gratuitous posting (http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/questions/bells.html) regarding ships' bells


Not meant to be a frivolous post btw.