CORK - CHICAGO IN USA PRESS - likely also KERRY

[neidin]

The normally correct - Irish Echo in New York has an article on likely Cork-Chicago with ATA.
http://www.irishecho.com/newspaper/story.cfm?id=15306

Seems unlikely unless the Shannon stopover goes. There will be heavy pressure for this when the new boards from Cork airport get going. ATA are also looking at CHICAGO - KERRY according to other reports. Kerry has that big fat guy working for them again -anyone know his name? He got ATA to Kerry from JFK before.

If Shannon let this happen - they will be crippled. With Cork getting USA flights and the fat guy from Kerry sitting on them SNN will feel the pressure.

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- A plan to provide historically low airfares between Ireland and the U.S. is being considered by Chicago-based ATA Airlines.

"This is a significant development where consumers could consistently find a low airfare without having to wait for a sale," said Professor Austan Goolsbee, an airline industry expert at the University of Chicago Business School.


ATA Airlines would use the same approach as several new U.S. carriers and offer deeply discounted tickets on non-traditional service routes; in this case it would be to link Cork and Midway Airport in Chicago. Midway is Chicago's second airport, after O'Hare International Airport, which is the busiest in the U.S.


"U.S. and European legacy or traditional airlines are clearly in bad shape, but you see new companies flourishing that seek niche routes, like Jet Blue in the U.S. or Ryan Air in Ireland," Goolsbee said.


The commitment by the Irish minister of transport, Seamus Brennan, last week to support a renegotiation of the Ireland-U.S. bilateral flight agreement to allow trans-Atlantic flights into Cork has spurred interest in opening new routes.


"Airlines are loath to announce publicly their intention of entering into a market for fear their interest could spur competition," Goolsbee said.


An ATA Airlines spokeswoman would not confirm their interest in the Chicago to Cork route.


But ATA, a budget, "no frills" operator that already has trans-Atlantic-capable airplanes, was considering a trans-Atlantic route before Brennan made his remarks.


In papers filed with U.S. government regulators, ATA Airlines stated that it believed profits could be earned by low-cost airlines entering into the trans-Atlantic market.


"The company is currently evaluating capacity and demand in several secondary trans-Atlantic markets. ATA will consider beginning limited European service in Summer 2005 or Summer 2006," the company stated in 8-K papers filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission that were obtained by the Irish Echo.


A spokesman at the Irish ministry, Tom Riley, said change is inevitable for the airline industry.


"Separating Dublin, Shannon and the Cork airport authorities will make it a more competitive market, and opening up new trans-Atlantic routes is a part of these renegotiations," he said.


And just what would this mean for airfare prices?


One statistic from a Pacific route might hint at future trans-Atlantic developments -- ATA Airline's current roundtrip fare to Hawaii from Chicago is $400 lower than Delta Airlines or US Airways' current "sale" fare.

[EIDW Spotter]

They can bypass SNN if the flights are sold on a charter basis, this is the way Aerlingus have started to sell the MCO flights. Another option is to do a touch and go as this would meet the requirements of this stupid stupid commitmnet to SNN.

[EI-WAT]

They can bypass SNN if the flights are sold on a charter basis, this is the way Aerlingus have started to sell the MCO flights.
You maybe wrong there as all flights back to Ireland have a stop-over in shannon.


EI-WAT

[Tom the Tenor]

Not a chance! Most emigrants to Chicago from Ireland came from the west of Ireland area along the western seabord. Cork people mainly emigrated to New York and Boston. Not too sure about where Kerry people emigrated to - guess it must be close enough to the NY/Boston/Philadelphia/Pittsburgh areas.

ATA have a lot more on their mind than worrying about potential new routes to Ireland - they are simply trying to survive and beat off Jetblue and Southwest and the likes.

Far better for Cork to look closer to home. For a start what about the Emerald from Liverpool - all gone very quiet there?

If it ever happens at all the only airline that will fly the North Atlantic successfully from Cork will be Aer Lingus. An A330 with a restriction on the belly cargo volume might be able to do the trick. Hard to see the likes of Continental ever turning up at Cork. Not enough high yield passengers out of Cork?

So no need for airbridges at Cork?

Yes, please, to a 9,000 Euro watch. Thanks!

[FlyCorkInternational]

It was interesting to read about ATA's interest in a Chicago-Cork lowcost service. Am not sure as to ATA's ability to get this one off the ground in view of their own financial difficulties. As for a pure lowcost transatlantic service i believe its only a matter of time before this will happen - but more likely will be on a more busy route like JFK-LHR, CDG, FRA and perhaps to a lesser extent DUB. I would not see it initially operating between lesser regional airports. As for a transatlantic service into Cork, its not now a question of if, but WHEN (its only a matter of time). My own feeling is that it will be EI, but dont be suprised to see CO aircraft in Cork.

As for airbridges at Cork - it would be very shortsighted of Cork Airport to have a rethink here. As TA traffic is only a question of time, they will need them even if it is only 2. If they put them on hold for now until the traffic need them, they will prob end up costing them 3 or 4 times what they would pay for them now. IMHO they should at least go ahead with a minimum of 2.

As for emerald and Liverpool - yes things have gone very quiet here and am not sure what the status is. On another vein, seems FR might be reacting to EZ coming into Cork. Rumour has it that FR are sniffing around cork with the possibility of a LTN service, and even some continental destinations. I knew they would not let EZ in without some reaction.

[CaptJ]

There you have it. FR only interested in delivering extra services to Cork as a reaction to EZY coming in. Show a very cynical attitude to "home" customers.

I hope the people of Cork take note.

[neidin]

EI A330 would really struggle with restrictions at Cork. ATA is a live bait. VFR traffic and the sad destination of crusty Cork people from the famine will not determine ATA CHICAGO service. They have the 757 at CHICAGO and CORK with massive discounts makes as much sense as competing with Southwest. ATA do not need or care for airbridges. Maybe EI will charter in 757?

Still anyone know the name of the big fat guy from KERRY. I think FR will go to Kerry before they compete with EZY from ORK. FR pilots talk of 10 minute turnarounds at KIR and 10 min waits just to park at ORK.

Hair raising times.

[FlyCorkInternational]

I agree fully concerning FR - they have never had any loyalty to Cork and have treated us here with utter comtempt. Personally I would prefer to see ANY other airline develop here before FR.

As for EI 330, cannot really see any problem in them operating from Cork, plenty have done before, and even the Qantas B747-400 which was here last week took on a full load of fuel in Cork to get her to Singapore due to the fuel problem at LHR on that day. I accept she did not have many pax on outward from ORK. EI have also stated they would not have problems in operating TA with A330 ex Cork.

[Tom the Tenor]

The talk of Ryanair and Luton to Cork has no other purpose other than to spoil things for EZY from Gatwick. However, business is business so if FR did want to throw on flights from Luton why stop them?

An option for Ryanair would be to go from three to two flights a day from Stansted and go twice daily from Luton. This would have two benefits for Ryanair: save on charges at Stansted and secondly put it up to Easy at their own home ground so to speak!

In the short term this would all benefit the passenger by offering very low fares. However, guess things would not stay sweet for long!?

As for that blinking runway at Cork - well for any operations requiring more than an Airbus A321 or Boeing 737-800 Cork would benefit big time from a modest runway extension in terms of safety and by making it more attractive for longer range operations. Cork is 2133 metres. Newcastle, UK has a runway at 2333 metres approximately and has MYT flights with A330-200s to Florida. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The runway issue will be a good test for the new Cork Airport Board.

Incidentally, the CAT II ILS to Cork's runway 17 came back into life last weekend and immediately proved it's worth as the weather was at times below CAT I minima.

[Powerjet1]

Wouldn't any ryan service between Cork & Luton, if it happened, have a detrimental effect on AA's service between Waterford & Luton, or is the distance between the two sufficient, so as not to upset the apple cart.

[Tom the Tenor]

Good point you have there Powerjet1. The roads from Waterford to Cork are very good quite like among the best of UK A roads so I guess if FR were to start LTN they might take a little from RE from Waterford if the prices were right too of course. Luton would be a new route from Cork so would be eligable for new route incentives too so the fares could be very low. However, even at best the journey from Waterford to Cork is still about two hours by road. Guess that would discourage a lot of people?

There were complaints to the local media in Cork yesterday about the lack of a coach on the ramp last Sunday morning when the weather was again very poor with wind and rain. The matter was discussed with the Cork Airport manager in the local popular station, 96FM. Did not hear the topic myself so does anyone know more?

[eoinok]

HI lads, I have stated it several places but I remember reading before a good few months bac in the evening echo before that Cork has been granted an extra €10 million in funding along with the current development up there, to extend the runway?
Now, I dont know which direciton they could go? The road at one end wouldn't be a huge problem, a tunnel underneath the runway for it would do, but the problem would be a house that is directly in the path of any extension I think??? If it is not in it's path, it would only literally be 30 metres away form the edge of the runway!
Maybe the plan would be to buy this house out and knock it??

Anyone see this article or aware of any plans?

As has been stated, and a previous thread before was nearly totally dedicated ot the subject, airbridges need to be installed. As the argument has been made before, I would rather see X million of my tax payers money being wasted on air bridges that may/may not be used, than X million X5 that it would probably cost later on to install them if they are needed for TA traffic?

Can you imagine it? Getting off a red eye in Cork at 6am down by the Cargo terminal or something and to be faced by a wall of rain being driven sideways and having to walk all the ways up to passpost control?!!!
Now, I know that with the new terminal, it might not be as bad a walk, but still, would be some shock to get!

[neidin]

CORK - TRANSATLANTIC is unlikely to happen before the next Irish election as the Shannon stopover will have to be changed and the Fianna Fail govt. has so many marginal seats in Shannon area that it would not risk chaging Shannon status just to keep a few people in Cork happy. Political reality.

Things at Shannon, Cork are very tenuous now. Shannon is the only airport in Ireland that will likely have a decrease in passengers in 2004. It is losing hangers full of money.

Cork is becoming very reliant on new LCC traffic at high discounts. If BMIBABY, EASYJET, AER ARRAN take a hit across the winter with fuel and other issues ... then there could be a clean out of routes in Autumn 2005. It happens. Cork and Shannon have been losing money for years ... The new board at Cork will not find it so easy to lose money and write it off to Dublin.

The only airport outside Dublin making money is Kerry - KIR. The PM tells me the big fat guy at Kerry seen in Hungary at Wizz is Peter Bellew.

[Tom the Tenor]

Neidin, at a stroke you have indicated how suspect the Shannon stopover is. The whole thing just stinks.

[FlyCorkInternational]

I agree fully with you TTT - the stopover issue is a farce. Before I go any further let me say I AM NOT ANTI SHANNON IN ANY WAY. However for a business point of view the comments that u made Neidin that Shannon (even with the Stopover) continues to "loose hangar loads on money" as you put it - does not instill confidence in Shannon as an overall Airport. Basically even forcing all TA traffic to stop at the airport and they still cannot make money - whats next force all UK traffic to stop there as well and see if that works. I am not advocating that Shannon should be left to die at all, but perhaps the energies would be better served if management there did a little more work on investigating how they can generate income from exisiting or new sources, than focusing the majority of their efforts ensuring the compliance of a outdated, anti competitive farsical rule, which will sooner rather later be scrapped. Management at Shannon know that this is what will happen, so the should be acting NOW to seek alternatives.

Anyways on your other statement about Crok TA traffic. Dont be too sure about saying it will never happen till the rule goes. WW at EI is a very shrewd individual, and you can see what he has done with the Orlando flight (even thought its appears that the flight will do a touch & go in SNN on the return leg). Rumour from a very reliable source in EI has told me that an announcement by EI is imminent on a Cork-USA service by them, along the same lines as Orlando. (3 times weekly to Boston has been mentioned).

Another possible announcement for Cork is only speculation by me at the moment, however Malev people have made a few visits to Cork in the last number of months. Previously their website has made no mention of Cork in the list of destinations. But in the last few days, Cork has appeared on their dropdown list when you go into their flights and schedules section and choose routes. However when you try find a flight or date to ORK it doesnt find it - so watch this space.

[neidin]

The SHANNON stopover people have already buggered up EI's plan for direct Orlando - DUB. EI is unlikely to operate charters from CORK to BOSTON and sell them on its regular channel site. Shannon stopover gang will kick up a storm. But who knows. A330 is supposed to have a minimum runway T/O of 2400 metres which would put ORK right outside margins. A long run and heavy payload restrictions from ORK to BOSTON on A330. But hey WW and EI might go for it just to put manners on SNN. They really hate SNN.

[Tom the Tenor]

The EI stop on the journey back from MCO to DUB is a last gasp attempt to tart up the numbers at SNN. Are things becoming desperate? Time to read that top class Sunday Times article again. Aer Rianta - what a shower of beauties they were!

EI not sell ORK-BOS tickets on it's regular channel site? My eye, they wont! What say do the SNN stopover gang have in how EI sell tickets to it's customers? That sounds crazy to say the least.

Air Luxor have been happy to operate A330-200s and A330-300s to Faro from Cork during the past summer. Might be time for EI or Air Luxor for that matter to offer a once off charter or proving flight from Cork to Boston to resolve what is possible or not possible? Good wing though on the A330 and little or no obstacle clearance limit at Cork should all help.

I'll buy a ticket!

[Cyrano]

As I understand it, under the US/Irish bilateral:

US scheduled carriers can serve SNN and/or DUB [from anywhere in the US].

Irish scheduled carriers can serve BOS, NYC, CHI and LAX [from anywhere in Ireland].

My understanding of the SNN stopover (as it relates to scheduled flights) is that it is linked to Dublin only, i.e. a scheduled service from (say) Cork to New York wouldn't have any SNN-stopover issues. Of course, no US airline could start such a service, as the US carriers only have scheduled rights to DUB and SNN.

Interestingly, I believe that under the bilateral, charter flights can go from anywhere in Ireland to anywhere in the US but need to serve SNN (as a traffic stop, not a touch-and-go :cool: ) on either the outbound or return leg except for charter flights from NOC or ORK.

So there might just be an interesting opportunity there...

C.