Weather Minimums

[raven2]

I have about 100 hours and I was wondering what peoples personal weather minimums are?

Eg What wind or conditions will make you decide to stay on the ground?

I have sort of set 20knots wind, cloud base 2000 agl and 9999 as my minimum but I never seem to get days like that. Very frustrating!

Any advice or wisdom you can share would be welcome.

Regards

Raven:confused:

[muffin]

Apart from the legal minima wherever you are based, it is largely a matter of what you are comfortable with. Howver, if it is any help, I saw a notice on the wall at our local training school the other day that said their minima for self fly PPL hire are 1000 ft cloud base and 5 k vis. Wind speed for the R22s that they rent is covered by the FAR limitations in the POH.

[Shawn Coyle]

The fact that you are worrying about personal weather minima is a good sign.
"The aim of every trip is to walk back into the office / your house. Sometimes you can accomplish that aim by not even going to the aircraft."

[Whirlygig]

Where I fly, the minima are 8km vis, cloud base 2,000ft and 20knots and that is in Norfolk where there are no mountains which can hide behind clouds!!

Cheers

Whirlygig

[helicopter-redeye]

The authorities have set weather minima for Fixed Wing VFR flight below 3000ft, and the R44 carries certain restrictions (around wind and gusting).

Why not use these?

However you need to focus more on flight planning and on having suitable alternatives to divert to if weather minima are below an acceptable standard on the hour.

You can be fairly certain about UK weather at +3 days and pretty much accurate the day before. If it looks like its going to look marginal the next day, take the train.

Over the past five years ("since records began", well mine anyway) we have on average 120 unflyable days a year in the UK for the type of VFR flying you are likely to do, so this leaves a lot of potential days when it is above the VFR minima for low hour fixed wing pilots and within R44 wind ranges.

Take a look also at the R44 crashes (and other rotary) in the UK. Mostly poor weather, at night and VERY marginal conditions.

Safe flying is about planning (routes, weather, diversions, conditions en route); effective supervision (somebody with grey hair who watches over thee; and confidence in what you are doing or about to do.

[Woolf]

.... 60kts Wind, no cloud base and 500m RVR ... :=

[muffin]

The effective supervision is actually a very important factor. During my early plank days, there was always a wise old CFI who would help you to make the go/no go decision. When I moved on in later years to independent private strip flying from lonely uninhabited farmers fields, I realised how much I had depended without realising it on the wise advice at my elbow. Over a long period, numerous friends came very close to disaster in that situation, and in some cases too close.

It is very different making your own decisions without the support of a club/training school behind you, especially if you are low hours.

[Camp Freddie]

hey woolf,

i understand you have 60 knots max to land offshore and the RVR 500 metres at Aberdeen, but how does the "no cloud base" bit work.

I know you can depart ABZ in even less than this down to 150m vis and only enough cloud base to allow reject before TDP, but you do have to come back and you do have IFR minimums for the approach dont you?

correct me if i am wrong but i thought you had a 200 ft decision height, so a 100 foot cloud base would be below your minimum, or am, i being naive and missing something?

[bovinedude]

Camp Freddie

You are naive and missing something!

[helicopter-redeye]

The supervision aspect is even harder where flying your own ship.

With club/ school machines the supervision comes (with good clubs/ schools) as part of the package.

So how to achieve it and stay safe when an owner?

Some of it has to be self regulation/ self briefing. If you study the stats for R44 accidents in the UK 'since records began' it has been rare for an owner to wreak their own machine. Usually it is somebody else doing it for them ... (2 out of 12 to Jan 04).

[MightyGem]

Raven, as Shawn said, it's good to see that you're concerned.
Regardless of the legal minimums allowed, everyone has their own.
You should never scoff at someone who won't fly when you are quite
happy to, and likewise don't let someone pesuade you to fly in
conditions that you are not happy with.


Yours are fairly high at the moment, but they will come down as you
gain experience. Have you thought about preparing yourself for the
day when the met man gets it wrong and you find the cloud and viz
getting worse?

On one of those days when you have a solo trip planned and
the weather's too bad, how about taking a trip with an instructor
just around the local area. Get a feel for flying in poor viz and a
lower cloudbase than you are happy with, ready for the day when it
happens, as it surely will one day.

[rotatrim]

raven2

You sound like one of the sensible ones.

I've been working around helicopters for the last few years (I'm fixed wing) and despair at the number of heli pilots who get a PPL, build up a bit of experience, buy a decent machine and become over confident, believing that the basic PPL and their growing competence allows them to fly night/IMC/IFR/in horrendous weather, etc.

I've also met a few PPLs who don gold bars and charge their mates for flying them to weddings, sporting events, etc., but that's another story.

[Camp Freddie]

hey bovinedude

what am i missing?

[ShyTorque]

Rotatrim,

If you really do know of a PPL holder doing Public Transport work then PLEASE report it to the CAA.

You owe it to his passengers / potential victims and to the helicopter industry as a whole. Not so much for work taken from those who have worked their guts out / sold their soul to do it properly, more because of the terrible impression this will give to the public if it goes wrong and there is an accident. In addition, he will be uninsured because he is flying illegally outside the terms of his licence. :(

[Vfrpilotpb]

Good morning Raven,

Well actually it's not such a good one if I look outside, low cloud, intermitant rain and gusts.

But at one hundred hours you will be confident enough to start to plan and make longer and greater flights, in doing so, you will without a shadow of doubt be caught out somewhere by quickly moving wx or fronts, I had exactly the same thoughts as you are having now, and one much more experienced pilot explained to me to pick a target nearby, in my case it is Pendle hill which stands at roughly 1800 ft below that and still in view is Jeffry hill which is 1150 ft, the big hill gives a very clear indication of cloud base and the smaller one is my no-go indicator. A lot of the pilots in this forum are the ones who job depends on flying, my job depends on getting wagons going so I let the hills make my mind up about my pleasure flying , that really is the difference, I dont need to go, the Pro pilots do need to go, and what I always remember, is some clouds especially around where I fly contain some very hard bits.

So if I cannot see the top of the small hill in my view, I do something else, Like go shopping with Mrs Vfr, I have been in cloud once with a very good pilot, he knew what he was doing, I was quietly wetting myself and was totally unhinged by the experience, so much so, I wont ever risk becoming a long mark on any hillside!


Fly safe, always land under control, it feels better.

Vfr

[magbreak]

You can be fairly certain about UK weather at +3 days and pretty much accurate the day before

Helicopter Redeye forgive me for asking but are you on drugs or do you work for the met office??:O

The Met offfice do a very good aftercast, a fairly good nowcast but the forecasting still leaves something to be desired! I have had to ring them on more than one occasion to question the TAF at an airfield when they were giving 5k+ viz and a 1000 ft cloudbase as the worst expected weather and the airfield had been sat in fog for the morning!! On pointing this out to them an amended TAF was issued which gave the fog as a temp.

bit off the initial question! My limits 55kts to startup, and 250 ft cloudbase and 500m for landing.

[helicopter-redeye]

No, I don't work for the Met Office (or take narcotics).

Sorry to hear that the airfield forecast did not match the actuals at the required time. That is the nature of forecasts I guess. especially ones local to a airfield and vacinity. Especially in the UK.

That would raise another useful point for the topic starter about "always phone ahead to check the forecast matches what is happening on the ground".

[bovinedude]

Camp Freddie

Yes you can take off from ABZ with 150m RVR, this is due to the runway lighting being of a certain standard and RVR info being available. Overcast @100ft does not prevent this take-off, even though the ILS mimima is 200ft/500m RVR.

However, you must have an alternate, within 1hr flying time of departure airfield, where the weather is 'acceptable'.

Worst case scenario, just after CDP, enter IMC, engine fails, you have a 1hr transit single engine to alternate.

Hope this explains it.

[Shawn Coyle]

Another interesting twist to this subject -
When do pilots finally get to make decisions about the weather? In my experience, it is unfortunately when they get their licence and not before.
In training, someone else typically makes the decisions and you aren't privy to the experience of learning when to say no...
Simulators might help in this regard.

[Woolf]

Camp Freddie:

On precision approaches it is only RVR that counts. You are allowed to fly down the ILS even if the cloud is overcast on the deck (as long as you have 500m RVR). The 200ft limit does not refer to cloudbase or ceiling it just represents your decision height.

Regards,

Woolf

[Thomas coupling]

UK police Ops:
For getting the job done (VFR): 350' c/b and 1km viz, day.
600' c/b and 5km viz night (night VFR).

Wind speeds for us: engaging/disengaging rotors: 50kts. Worst wind I've flown in on the job: 75kts.

[ec135driver]

Seems like the original reason for this thread was for the poster to get some idea from other private pilots on their personal limits to help him decide on his.

Forget legal minimums(but NEVER take off if wx is below them) and forget forecasts (Mat Office personnel ARE on drugs and work in windowless offices!)

Know when to land and give up the flight, look stupid, be embarrassed, take some stick, but be alive to blush another day.

[Helinut]

Raven,

Lots of useful info here I think. For me, the two best bits relate to the uncertainty of forecasts:

1. As MG says, get some dual experience of "bad weather" flying - it is amazing to me (now with a bit more experience) how low-time PPLs do not see the pretty obvious signs of in-flight weather deterioration and take the necessary steps;

2. Do what you can to improve on the forecast: definitely talk to yoour arrival site if you can, and any obvious alternate

BUT also do not forget, you are flying a helicopter: if you do not like what you see in front of you, and YOU are wishing you were not up here - LAND.

[Camp Freddie]

hey bovinedude and woolf,

I know all that stuff about departure single engine alternates and RVR being the deciding factor about whether there is an approach ban or not.

I was just taking issue with woolfs statement that
".... 60kts Wind, no cloud base and 500m RVR ." was your limit"

the implication for people who are not aware of IFR limits is that you could/would fly a normal line trip with no issue about cloudbase/ceiling at all. wheras if you had OVC 001 at aberdeen this would be a factor and is likely to pack you off to dundee (or somewhere) !

regards

CF

[Woolf]

hey camp freddie:

You are quite right, there are certain limits concerning cloud ceiling/base for IFR flying even if all your approaches are precision approaches. Destination or Takeoff-Alternate limits do not require any cloud ceiling. However Destination-Alternates do, normally a cloud ceiling of Decision Height + 200ft and RVR + 400m. So for departing or returning to Aberdeen OVC001 is not really an issue if you can find a suitable Alternates.


Regards,

Woolf