want to buy myself a job...

[ss_0001]

anyone know if for someone with only 500hrs and an instrument rating, there are FO jobs around on say a B1900 or metro if you pay for the endorsement or some sort of a bond?

I've spent the last six months working as a station pilot and was wondering if spending some cash now ($15K ?) would move things along a bit.

[Boney]

..... umm.

I reckon this one is gonna get ugly, real quick!!!!!

[newbe200]

I think you will find that by paying for your endorsement you will screw the people down the other end of the chain.

It makes it very hard to bargain for the proper money ( not the money you SHOULD get but the maoney you will be LUCKY to get ) when there are guys that will do it for less, because they know six months down the line dad will get them a Virgin interview, and hey, who needs money while your living with mum.

If you are keen to get off the station, do the hard yards and earn the twin job. You should be right with a thousand or 1500. Surely thats not far away...

Anyway, I am sure there will be alot of replies saying go either way. If I had the choice again I may have taken the easy road. Who knows???

With 500 hours you could apply to Qantas or even be a cadet, but that is another can of worms all together.....:ok:

Cheers nb20

ps Not matter what you do, some one will hate you for it!

pps How did you come up ith that name for yourself?

[U2]

Rather than invest in someone elses business, invest in your future.

1 Get a few endorsements or time up in the U.S.

2 Do some private flying and go visit some employers

Try to avoid bargaining your slavery with a future employer

my two cents

U2

[The Enema Bandit]

Get off your arse and do it the hard way like everybody else does.

[vh-oja]

Withdraw all your money as cash, walk into every Operator you can find and casually flash your cash around and tell them you and your bag of money are here for the twin job, make sure you wear a shirt with 4 gold bars on it too, this'll impress the chief pilot even more.

Or if that doesn't take your fancy you could just get a couple of endorsements, send out resume's and make phone calls like everyone else.

[Lodown]

ss_0001 in answer to your question - no, I don't know of any operators.

In reply to the other respondents - he asked about jobs if a pilot pays for the endorsement. There is a difference between paying for an endorsement and subsequently working for award wages and; paying for an endorsement and then working for free or paying to build up hours. In the first instance, aviation employment appears to be following that trend for good or bad, eg. Virgin, Jetstar, etc. I'll give him the benefit of doubt. In the second instance, ss_0001, if you do it, don't advertise the fact.

[tinpis]

Windy,heres an opening for your talents .

AUSTRALIAN AVIATION JOBS FOR SALE.

[AT502]

Keep your mouth shut about all deals you make along the way! And make sure you work twice as hard as the next pilot, so you have a clear conscience.

Where theres a will, theres a way!

Good luck!

ST:cool:

[Capt Fathom]

AUSTRALIAN AVIATION JOBS FOR SALE
Or How About...

AUSTRALIAN AVIATION FOR SALE

[TopTup]

Take the advice given above: your damned if you do and damned if you don't, and (no matter what you do) in this industry work twice as hard as the next bloke, and keep it to yourself!

I started in this game 12 years ago and have learnt to keep quiet through some tough lessons. There are many pilots out there who will disagree with whatever and however you progress It will never be good enough unless you did it the same way they did it. 404 time is better than Chieftan time, Territory time is better than the southern states...... yadda, yadda, yadda.

I've seen guys into in CX with 1450 hrs (200 twin time) and others miss out with 6000 hrs (3000+ turbine time), and then hear the rants and raves that it's all rigged, that so and so must have known, shagged or paid someone something.....

Mate, do what you feel is best and keep it to yourself. For all those who say you're cheating by paying for your job, ask them if they have a CV in with VB, Jetstar or Brunei (to name but 3!!!), or if they would like to work for them. No pay = no job. Full stop. If you get into QF, the captain you're flying with might be a cadet - but of course from the wisdom of others, he is not as good a pilot as them because he didn't fly a C210 for 800 hrs. Having said that, those C210 hours and experience are gold that cannot be purchased or undervalued.

I'm not advocating either path is better than the other, just a few observations I have seen rampant in many crew rooms and aeroclubs. Train and study hard no matter which way you go and no-one can question your ability and professionalism. Hold your cards close to your chest. The mate you thought you had will disown you if it means getting ahead and ditching you as a consequence.

Best of luck with your choice and career.

[AT502]

Hear Hear!!!!!:ok:

Top Tup said what I should have said.

One of my mates is in the process of leaving Ag flying to go to the airlines. He has been at the crossroads of been able to buy a job to get twin time or doing it tough just like everyone else. When you do come to the crossroads yourself it is very hard to know what choice to make. The argument is that all pilots in the future will have to buy their future in aviation, but I don't quite agree. I think while times are tough like it is now, it really is survival of the fittest, and if you can manage to get yourself ahead by doing things slightly differently then the next guy, then I say do it. But, as I said before, keep your mouth shut and work twice as hard as the next guy.

Anyway I have not been able to answer your initial question, I'm sorry.

Cheers,

ST:cool:

[ss_0001]

TopTup,

thanks for the great post. I guess I was trying to find out if with limited experience there are actually jobs out that you can buy yourself into.

I don't agree with working for nothing.... but I don't have a problem with paying for an endorsement and/or some icus time if that's whats needed to prevent having to clock up 1500hrs+ of single time.

You're right, the time spent on the station / in a community etc etc is great experience and something that you can't buy - I just don't want to spend too long on this rung of the ladder before moving on.

If you are not in your early twenties or have changed from another career then you will know what I mean. Why wait in the long queue if you can go through the 15 items or less express checkout lane? I wouldn't call that jumping the queue and it sounds to me like a lot of sour grapes when people complain that everyone should do the hard yards and graciously wait for something good to happen...

[U2]

A pilot once quoted me this:

"there are three stages in a pilots career, your first job, your first twin job and your first jet job."

Each stage is just as hard as the last to get a leg up. One way or the other you got to pay for it. Either in hard cash, time out in wonderland or return of military service. There are no free lunches in aviation, not even the cheap and narsty airline food.


Another quote I once heard

'your life is determined by the choices you make, not the chances you take."


I say:
Keep your nose clean and your mouth shut.

Am by no way am I trying to sound pessimistic, just frank.

It's kind of like getting sex....you can pay for it in cash...pay for it in hard labor...or pay for it in return of service!

U2

[Cloud Cutter]

ss

In NZ there are a couple of operators (metro, J31) that require you to pay for your type rating. However their minimum requirements are similar to comparable airlines that bond for training. These operators also pay a bit more so it all evens out over a year or two (ie you pay for the training one way or another).

Be vary carefull of anyone who offers to 'sell' an endorsment with no guarentee of work. I know of a couple of operators in Aus that will do a B1900 rating for you, but would steer clear of both. As previously stated, if you try and buy your way into a GA twin job you will be as popular as a pig in a temple, and IMHO buying ICUS does you no favours - by all means do it for free if it leads to a paying job.

Good luck, It's a long road but it's worth it.

[Boney]

Just goes to show - if Mum and Dad have money, your chances of actually getting somewhere in this game are greatly improved.

If you are in your 30's, maybe a child or 2, you are probably going to struggle the rest of your life and retire with a $1,000 in the bank and same bomb car you are driving now.

Oh to be young with a rich daddy!

[EPIRB]

I'm always of the belief that if you want something badly enough, you'll get it. I paid for all of my flying and could only do my subjects part time and via correspondence. My parents couldn't afford to pay for my lessons and now I've worked for two major Australian airlines.
When I was chief pilot of a charter company, I would only give work to those that had paid for their training themselves as I felt that they were more deserving.

[TopTup]

SS_001:

Looking at some of the responses, have you learnt your lesson yet with regards to keeping your mouth shut?

Aleardy some people have ASSUMED AS LAW that you are a spoilt brat who lives off mummy and daddy and that you must do things the way they do it, just because...... One person won't employ you if you're the best pilot to ever grace the earth because the next below average Joe Shmow paid for his training him/herself. The Pprune bandwagon has spoken!! and have already judged and convicted you on 1 simple question that you asked. One person warned that "things could get nasty" and then when the time came couldn't wait to slip in the boot!

To the knockers: Do you know or even bother to ask if SS-001 has saved the money him/herself, or will take out a personal loan, and what business is it of yours how it is spent? Get over it. You chose your path and he or she is in the process of choosing their own.

Again, I do not advocate either path as better or worse, just a person been around long enough to be so tired of ill-informed meanderthol drool coming from head-in-the-sand pilots. Judge on personal merit, not ill conceived biasses.

(For the record, I did it the old fashioned way - not that that defines my standard as a good or bad pilot, or person).

[always inverted]

ss0001

looking from the other side of the ditch, I will tend to agree with the first couple of posts, and hoped for your sake that you hade a flack jacket on when you hit submit.
I think that every 500 hr pilot or almost all, goes through the stage of wanting to pay for a job.
I did, kept it relatively quiet and got burnt real bad.
Cashed in the life savings and hit the parents up for a loan and got a loan from the bank- still paying it all off.
That was 22000 nzd for a bandit type rating and then 200 hrs on type, after that you rolled onto the payroll.
Said company went into recievership 2 days before the type rating day.
Now a few years on and a few more hours under the belt I realise that it was a mixed blessing.
On one side, 12-18 months to be a captain, would probably be in a jet as a co now, or at least a captain on on of the regional turboprops.
The other, you realise that aviation is full of bulls@#ters and wan%$#s. The flying that I have done since I would not change for anything. I've had so much fun and now think that from a maturity standpoint that I'm ready to move into turboprops.

Don't know how old you are but if you are like I was 22 and thought of the fastrack as a good idea- it is in some ways.
It's like growing up to fast and not enjoying your childhood, and the fun things about being a kid.
After talking to alot of people, why would you want to jump into a metro or beech now and be bored within 2 years of doing the same stuff.
What I say is - If you want to do it then go ahead but as many have said, KEEP IT TO YOURSELF. The one you tell may be on the panel of an interview in a couple of years and may remember.
When sitting in the crew room at an airport someone may say something about an experience they had and it's nice to be able to know what they are on about.
Remember the GA years and enjoy them cause they will be like a distant memory in 3-5 years.
Don't be in to much of a hurry.

[The Other Half]

Here Here!
You've got a good head on your shoulders there.

Cheers :ok:

[U2]

EPIRB, who paid for your two australian airlines jobs.

-Australian taxpayer
-slave money from corrupt corporations
-politician traveling on other peoples hard work money
-money made from the privatisations of aviation infrastructure and the flow on effect of the corporatisation.

the list could go on.

If ss0001 had his training paid for by his/her parents, did you both to find out if they are honest people.


Earning isn't the same as growth.

U2

[The Enema Bandit]

U2, who gives a **** who paid for his airline jobs. It sounds like he worked hard for them and got what he deserves. I hope he didn't pay for his endorsement there. PS Go and take some English lessons, you're punctuation/spelling is dreadful.

[ss_0001]

for those of you who asked where the cash is coming from, 'mummy & daddy' haven't paid a cent. My hard won earnings come from another trade I did before entering the well paid world of the GA pilot...

yes, something along the lines of the post re the bandit endorsement plus 200hrs was what I was thinking of. Reading all the posts thus far it sounds like there's nothing like this on offer in Aust.

I read somewhere once there are plenty of companies doing this in the US but the cost is big bucks US$40K (?)

[EPIRB]

U2, yes, I suppose all of those people on your list contributed to the cost of my endorsements, just like they did for the vast majority of airline pilots. Passengers like those you mentioned (who are most likely a very small minority anyway. No doubt Virgin fly them too.), whether you like it or not, are just a fact of life. I get the impression that you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about who paid for my airline training. Why?
Can somebody explain why an employee should pay for their endorsement rather than their employer?

[Massey Pro]

want to buy myself a job...

Mate just another poor old soul out of touch with reality.... Who would ever buy themselves a job?? Personally I'd just get my Dad to come up with the money for any required type ratings and things the like...

[TopTup]

EPIRB / Massey Pro,

I agree with what you both state. In an ideal world when you are employed into a new carrier, no matter what the size, the endorsement and training should be part of the package, all be it with perhaps a "return of service" agreement / bond.

Also I must apologise to EPIRB as after reading what I had written earlier. I did not mean to paint you in the manner it is too easilly interpreted, ie who is hired over who..... I just believe that the differences in commitment between one who goes into great financial debt and the pressures associated with that debt are not too dis-similar to another's commitment doing things out in the bush.

My point is that the sorry fact of this world is that the days that EPIRB had are unfortunately going along with the rise of the word wide low cost carrier boom. If you were a director, it was your money and therefore bat and ball what would you do? Pay the $24 - $28 grand (indirectly) yourself or employ suitably qualified people willing to pay it for you?? That is the way it is, no if's but's or maybe's. Those at VB, Jetstar (soon to be) and Brunei do pay for their job. As mentioned, no money, no job. Cut and dry.

If SS_001 chooses to go down the path he or she is considering then what business is it of anyone's? He/she earnt and saved the money him/herself, just like the VB, Jetstar, Brunei drivers did and will continue to. If an applicant meets and exceeds a job's requirments with min hours at the age of say 23 as opposed to another some 3 to 5 years older what is wrong with that? I just wish people in this industry would not be so narrow minded and accept, unfortunately, the way things are now and will continue to be. The $15 grand SS_001 is talking about could be readily retrieved in a better salary being earnt a few years earlier than expected. Investment in yourself and career is better than the investment I have put into the Bundy Rum Factory over the many years.....

Again, I don't like it, but it's the way things are.