Heat Exhaustion

[FEWNCOP]

Anyone got any thoughts on the new 'aclimitisation' (sp)measures being introduced to prepare us for working in hot climates?

Apparently, it involves trotting off to the gym to do a bleep test to destruction. You are then fully prepared for a trip to the desert. This has been underway at ISK for a while now it seems, and is about to spread around the rest of the RAF.

To the best of my knowledge, Health and Safety at work decrees that you're not supposed to continue on the bleep test past the level for your age. Last I heard, even IOT doesn't do a max effort bleep test anymore.

More importantly, how exactly does this improve your operational capability?

Open to the floor............

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Most excellant, if you fail it you can't be deployed:O .......bring it on:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Charlie Luncher]

Methinks
It smells of all sorts of blunties who justify their very existence and manning levels by proving to be very important to your deployment prep.:ooh:
You would only be spending time taking training flights or even spending time with your family, perish the thought.
Does anyone remember when we used to deploy regularly without all this crap, no sorry we are all part of the team effort - my :mad:

Charlie sends

[QuidProQuo]

Actually, this regime has been in place since May - across the whole of the RAF! It is not designed to make you go above the RAFFT standrads, but if you can - and many people can - you do. The aim is for an individual to determine their maximum effort and then train somewhere below it.

Most people I know have little difficulty with the regime. But the big issue revolve around who it applies to - going for an 8-week det and you have to train for 6 weeks before? Even worse, a short trip out there - a week or so! And there is also supposed to be programme when you arrive in theatre.

The concept sems right, it may be that the application needs some tweaking. But overall, it may also have the effect of getting the RAF generally fitter - and that can't be a bad thing.

Off to the gym........................

[Mad_Mark]

Most excellant, if you fail it you can't be deployed:O .......bring it on:ok:

If only that were the case :) Failing does not stop the individual from deploying, it simply means that they are suppossed to visit the gym several times a week to try and improve. So, even after a few weeks down the gym you could still 'fail' it and be deployed. What utter bull$#!t :mad:


Charlie Launcher has it right, people trying to justify their existance! Let's see how they justify someone dropping dead whilst trying to push for a level well above their ability, just to 'pass'! It WILL happen!!!!

Mad Mark!!! :mad:

[Tourist]

If you drop dead during a bleep test, or indeed any phys, then you have no business being in the armed forces, in my humble opinion, you whinging pansy crabs!

[tradewind]

Tourist, I wouldn't have quite put it like that, but I entirely agree with you!

Doing beep tests before deploying, to get you fit - oh do @:£% off!

This strikes me as another PC move to make sure that if any bigwig asks whether our boys and girls are fit to go on ops they can come back with this gem.

Makes my mind boggle!!!!

[airborne_artist]

Different people respond in different ways to heat/humidity - so can a beep test in UK ambient temps give a meaningfull result?

I've seen a fit guy not only collapse, but come close to death, in the Brecon Beacons, because his heat regulation mechanism flipped when he reached a relatively low temp. He'd been a good schoolboy rugby player, so it was not the first time he'd broken sweat.

I'm not sure why people are "getting fit for a detachment" - shouldn't you be keeping fit as a matter of course if you are in or likely to join an operational unit?

Is it good enough to be fit to do your own specialist task? Discuss....

[DuckDodgers]

Hold on, this was put in place because of the temp and humidity in Basra, in winter it gets a little chilly and wet! So where is the logic?

I recently did my fitness test and having entered the details into the Stn R2 database i was then asked to fill in forms, make a copy of my pointless blue card and send one to FDS and the PEd section!! to prove i had done it! The bloody info is on SAMA! This also applied to IDT! Felt like saying and here is a picture proving i'm in work today!!!!

[juliet]

i agree that the logic involved as to why we have to do the fitness training is slightly flawed, ie. because it is a very hot and therefore taxing environment. however, the fitness levels in the raf are pretty terrible so i dont think it would hurt to get people off to the gym for a little bit of training. of course people will come back with the argument of being fit enough to do their job and that is all they need to be. i think that is rubbish. i personally get quite embarrassed when other forces or civvies see the state of a fair proportion of the people that we have in uniform, im just surprised that so many people have such little pride in themselves that they let their fitness levels drop to such pitiful levels. juliet

[BEagle]

And there was I thinking that A1G1Z1 was an acceptable medical employment standard and was assessed by doctors who know what they're talking about, not some PTI with a stopwatch.

The jcokstrapping mafia seem to have this ridiculous notion that hoofing up and down the gym (whatever one of those is) is somehow a universal solution to everything that's needed pre-deployment.

Didn't need it in GW1 - sufficient acclimatisation from relaxing around the Hilton pool seemed to get most people used to the heat.

And if people had wanted to be grunts wiv guns, they wouldn't have opted to go to war sitting down!

[Flak Jacket]

If you pass the RAFFT then you are assessed as being fit enough for the RAF. Fact.

If this is now seen as not being fit enough for the job we are doing, then just up the pass mark in the fitness test. Do not go about calling it some other rubbish. This just sends mixed messages as this thread proves and brings about a two tier society where it seems like you are being punished for being deployable.

I agree that the fitness standards across the board should be improved but the only fair way of doing this is to up the pass mark.

[Melchett01]

Heard about this from a mate that has just been tested to max for his time in the sandpit, and I have to say it does strike me as being pretty pointless.

The first thing I was told when I got out to the sandpit last summer (the hottest for over 50 years - high point was 155 degrees on the r/w at Balad one day in Aug!), we were told welcome to theatre - if the locals don't get you, the heat will! So much for the warm welcome. That very week, they had shipped home 3 people who had unfortunately been victims of the excessive heat. By all accounts, they were pretty fit blokes and had been in theatre for a good few weeks.

Moral of this story - being fit and thrashing the PTI's bleep test tape to destruction doesn't mean you won't fall over.

To come up with a sweeping generalisation that thrashing everyone going on det in the gym means they will be ok is nuts. Everyone will respond differently to the heat and conditions, regardless of what level they got to on a bleep test. The best advice I got was to stay indoors for the first few days (if possible) then gradually build up an hour a day. For the first month or so, drink as much water as you can get down your neck (8-10 litres wasn't unusual for us) and don't do anything stupid like PT!!

Then as your body gradually gets used to being baked, you should be able to start going out more, doing physically more demandin work and eventually going for nice long runs with the PTI :ugh: :ugh: You'll know you've acclimatised because one day you'll be thinking bollocks it's hot and eventually you start not to notice it. And we worked all this out without running up and down the gym.

Sorry if all this is teaching people to suck eggs, but it goes to show that the new pre-det acclimatisation package is all about the RAF covering their arses and nothing to do with people being effective in high temperatures. What would happen if we suddenly had to go to the Arctic - would we be shoved into the Mess freezer for a couple of hours a day????

[Ali Barber]

I have been told that the French Air Force in Djibouti enforce a no PT rule outdoors during the summer months.

[buoy15]

The present SMO at ISK told me a while ago, that medically, an individual should have 24 hours rest for every time zone they pass through prior to working in theatre. So, going to Florida meant 5 days off before flying - RIGHT!!
In fairness, I did get 2 days stand down to acclimatise.when I was posted to FEAF in the late 60's.
Over the last 3 years, I know of 4 supposedly very fit chaps dying trying to keep fit at lunchtime either in the gym or out running.
I think your born with so many heartbeats - when you use them up - quickly or slowly - that;s it - byeee

Love many, trust a few, Always paddle your own canoe!:)

[brit bus driver]

Is there a VO2 max test, or super-duper beep test level check as part of the Emirates interview?

Thought not......I'll get me sunscreen and shades:cool:

[The Swinging Monkey]

Chaps,
I have to say that a lot of this 'jock-strapping' is a load of utter nonesence frankly!
Remember Afghanistan? and all those who spend 3 - 4 months out in that wonderful $hithole called Thumrait?

The only casualties that the RAF suffered out there, were the bl00dy idiots who insisted on going for a run every day, trying to prove to the rest of us just how fit they were!

God knows how many came back injured, burned blah! and yet, as is so very often the case, those of us who are slightly 'more sensible' and perhaps slightly 'chunkier' chaps (of which I admit to being one!) ended up flying the 'jock-strappers' sorties because of their bad feet, burned shoulders, twisted ankles blah!

Lets face it, we 'knacker' more aircrew by 'jock-strapping' than we ever do in operations.

The most imoportant thing is to look afetr yourself, and if that involves a nice glass of grouse, whilst reading the paper, Hey, Go for it!!!

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
'caruthers, time for my morning glass of health tonic please!!

[PMA's Toy]

I'm a bit disappointed by a lot of goings-on in the PEd branch in general. I'll admit that compared to my first few years of service a while back, I'm a couple of flying suit sizes larger ;) but can still stumble my way through a fitness test if they let me sit down afterwards.

However, I thought it'd be quite nice to get fit again. So I bimbled off to the station gym to ask one of the Physical Training Instructors to, well, instruct me.

It turns out that they're a little busy hoofing footballs around the gym and wandering around in shell suits to actually help a gentleman who wants to improve his fitness. The attitude was that I should be fit enough; if I'm not it's my fault; and if they're all staying fit, why can't I?

Another station I visited recently has started a policy of "naming and shaming" fitness test failees (is that a word?) in SROs. I would have thought pulling them aside and saying "don't worry mate, down the gym after work, I'll put a program together for you, we'll get you fit" might be better than laughing him off the gym and sticking his name up a flagpole.

Thoughts? Have I just got a bad gym here?

[NURSE]

yes but in Iraq one of the RAFP died of heat stroke!!!!

so some changes to fittness standards are required.

What with purple ops and the RAF wanting to take command slots and put people in what was previously army units etc maybe fittness levels approaching the army's might be what is needed.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Nurse,

I'm not sure I can agree with you there old bean.
As many of you will know, a dera friend of mine collapsed and died three weeks ago in the gym at Waddo.
A fitter (and more importantly) healthier person you could not wish to meet, and yet he died instantly.
Of course the circumstances were such that he had serious heart disease. Nevertheless, it strikes me that too much emphasis is put on 'getting fit'

What do we want in the RAF? Do we want a bunch of super-human fitness fanatics or do we want people who can pass their AFT? If the AFT is no good, then yes, we need to change it, but it is surely about time that the whole of the RAF stops pandering to PTI's.

As you say, if an RAFP died of heat stroke, then someone should be held accountable for not ensuring that he was aclimatised prior to deployment. But does that need a change in the AFT? I'm not sure, maybe we need to take a long hard look at all this fitness/health fiasco eh??

PMA's Toy, I don't think that you have got a bad gym. I think that it is indicative of todays RAF in that PTI's and scribblies in general do a lot of shouting, but when it comes to actually 'helping' people, then it's a different matter.

Rant over

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey

[StopStart]

Having now done several dets at BSR I can safely say that any PTi/gym based training regimen carried out in the UK pre-det would be about as much use as SROs at a deployed operating base.

If the RAF and Army really were keen on taking such issues seriously then there would an acclimitisation period at the hub in theatre where folks could spend a few days getting used to the delightful conditions prior to being shoved in the back of albert, dumped in BSR and then being told to get on with it. Such a period would also enable everyone to attend the thousands of briefings etc that just repeat all the balls-ache one went through in the UK prior to being deployed.

Or do bleep test. In the UK. In winter. Brilliant.

:rolleyes:

[Doppelganger]

Fitness and acclimatisation are not directly related in my opinion, unless an individual is either the size of a cow, or stick-thin. I am not very fit, but have no trouble with extremely hot, or extremely cold environments. It's all about susceptibility - human beings differ from each other (surely this is not a scoop?). This bolleaux is all about accountability and the Forces being SEEN to be doing something should somebody take a dive abroad. It's also about self-justification for certain branches and trades. I deploy frequently for short periods of time and to countries with many different climates and have experienced no difficulty (other than creepy crawlies in the shower). How many people who post on here have fainted during a parade or been on a parade when somebody else has? Was physical fitness a factor? I doubt it.

In my humble little view, the MOD wants every aspect of Service life (including getting shot) to be the responsibility of the individual with no accountability either up the chain or in government.

[maniac55]

I'd still like to know on what medical basis a bleep test to destruction in anyway helps you acclimatise to the Gulf?

I'm no Doc but it sounds like absolute cobblers to me, so what is the real reason for doing it?

There are those who like to jockstrap and those who don't, all that matters is can you do your job when asked?

I'm not paid to be a marathon runner or international sportsman (I so wouldn't be either) but I am paid to get in a plane and achieve a task, for which the AFT is quite adequate.

[Scud-U-Like]

I'm no doc either, but I assume, although administered by PTIs, the acclimatisation programme was conceived by physicians. Surely, anything that helps the body better to cope with hot climes, can only be advantageous to personal health and operational effectiveness.

Having been jiffed for all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff in the last couple of years, I'm glad I've kept myself reasonably fit. In my experience, being physically fit is good preparation for whatever physical and mental rigours Service life happens to throw at you.

[Anton Meyer]

Well, I am on the programme even though I will be in-theatre for a few weeks of the, ahem, hot season.

The bottom line, as far as I see it, is that the PEd peeps work out for you how long it will take you to acclimatise. The idea of the programme is that you hit the ground running and are as healthy as you can be to withstand the austere conditions that many of us will be exposed to.

If you are going out on winter tours, you don't do it.

The positive spin is that, getting fit ifor your V02 max test is a duty, so you are entitled to go to the gym in company time...

The reality is....:confused:

I guess it just boils down to the old Duty of Care chestnut....

[JessTheDog]

This seems like a good idea in principle until you take a magnifying glass to the small print/accompanying bulls#!t factor.

This adds to the pre-deployment admin faff. A flt cdr will now lose someone earlier, along with IDT, kit collection, medicals, clearance and pre-deployment leave.

What happens if the flt cdr kicks up a stink? Does he/she get placed back in his/her box, or does the OOA person get stitched with doing the PT in his/her own time, electronically tagged with the Orwellian "exercise compliance" gadget?

It would seem to make more sense to do the acclimatisation in-theatre, but that would involve more resourses than getting a blue-suiter to run around a bit more before deploying. Therefore this solution provides lip service to duty-of-care at little cost!