Ba Recruiting App Graduates!

[moo]

This is hot off the press guys and gals - British Airways have asked Oxford for 24 APP graduates!

Also, Channel Express (Jet 2) have taken on 11 integrated students out of 11 interviewed! (I believe some were APP and some were standard Integrated Course prior to the first APP course graduates but don't quote me)

Before you all go chewing my face off about where I got this information, I can 100% assure you of its truth. It may not be on the Oxford website yet, but when this does go public there, remember you heard it here first!

[Mister Geezer]

Poor old Lofty often gets his wires crossed - The BA that he will be talking about in this context could well be 'Bangladesh Airlines' :D

[BigAir]

Mister Geezer, You obviously have some sour grapes and are an ill informed nitwit - to all those people who constantly whinge about integrated courses, take this as a big in your face - I agree, it might not be right, but to Scroggs and all the other people out there, there are airlines who rightly or wrongly do want integrated students only.

Everyone pays there money and takes their choice and I think this is good news for those who have invested in integrated courses, despite the constant barraging seen on sites like these - it can and does make a difference.

Bigair:O

PS. I really don't care what people reply to me as I probably wont bother to read it, so save yourself some typing!

[expedite_climb]

Moo,

What is your source ? Would be very surprised, given they have only just finished taking applications from type rated candidates (yesterday), and wont know for 6-8 weeks how many of those have got through.

Also, it's not like BA to advertise such available positions, and finally would be interested to see how many get through the interview and sim - it's not easy you know !

[Alex Whittingham]

From Oxford's web site:

BA SSP Scheme (http://www.oxfordaviation.net/info/news/ba.htm)

If it is exclusive to Oxford it is certainly a coup for the current management. Why not take from Jerez and Cabair as well?

[Mister Geezer]

As an integrated student from Oxford who has an airline job in the right hand seat I have no sour grapes at all!!! All I was doing was injecting a bit of light hearted humour into the discussion. Life doesn't have to be serious all the time!!!

Seriously it will be good news if this is the case. A friend of mine on the 73 at LGW said that they are being worked hard and going into discretion has become a bit more frequent than in the past. Running tight on crews??? - who knows!

[luckyPierre]

BigAir,
Your comments on integrated Vs Modular are vailid ones. It is up to individuals.

However why do you bother putting a post on this forum if you claim you are not prepared to read the replys to it anyway.

Your petty, narrow minded arrogance astounds me.

[euroboy]

Mister geezer - your post made me smile........pity some people are highly strung.


hows life up north? I heard you at LTN.

[MAX]

Makes sense if you think about it. Why sponsor pilots when they can pay for their own training with the hope of joining BA? Coupled with retirements and the possibility there are less direct entry applications due to drop in conditions (final salary) would mean that they may need people.

I wouldnt suggest you do an integrated JUST because of this. But it may sway some of you wannabes. Will mean more people signing up for Oxford I guess.

Good luck.

MAX:cool:

[moo]

I have recently been told is not exclusive to Oxford.

[ChocksAwayUK]

Funnily enough John Monks, BAs head of recruitment, told me about a 8 months ago that BA were planning on recruiting about 25 integrated students on their SSP scheme. He said they would be from CAA approved schools Jerez, Oxford, WMU and Cabair though dropped a heavy hint that they hadn't recruited from Cabair for the longest period of time.

I promptly ignored him and signed up with Bristol ground school.. ho hum. Still happy with my choice of course... not sure i could 85%+ in all my exams for a start.

Big Air... it scares me that you might be a pilot one day.. your attitude is astonishing. Maybe you're just very young, I don't know.

[Alex Whittingham]

Its less of a coup then, and less of a compliment to Oxford. You wouldn't know that from their website! I wonder if BA will be taking modular students from the likes of Multiflight and CTC?

[expedite_climb]

Okay, I'll eat my hat then!

Obviously good news for the industry, and for those of us in the hold pool hoping for long haul....;)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its not exclusive to OATS. It does seem to be exclusive to Integrated.

Its 24 slots. Not enough to warrant the £25,000 premium required to go Integrated.

Cheers

WWW

[scroggs]

to Scroggs and all the other people out there, there are airlines who rightly or wrongly do want integrated students only

Yes there are, and in my opinion they're wrong - but that's been argued about before and I can't change it! However, neither BA nor any other airline I know in UK recruits from a single source. You are probably aware of BA's direct-entry pilot scheme, which should have recruited around 130 pilots this year alone. There is no mention of preferred schools in that scheme; simply a requirement for a type rating and a fairly minimal number of hours. Similarly, BA and most others have in the past recruited from the pool of modular and self-improver pilots - and in numbers far greater than the 24 quoted in this case. So the fact that BA intends to recruit 24 people from OAT and others is good news, both for the schools and those 24 peeps, but this is far from being a statement that all their future pilot requirements will be met from the APP, or any similar, scheme!

Incidentally, Big Air don't you think your 'Future Training Captain' line in your profile is a teeny bit arrogant? :rolleyes:

Scroggs

[Re-Heat]

My last post deleted as it was off-topic.

Just to add that BA did recruit in this way, unadvertised, in the past to fill spaces that arose due to expansion. Perhaps - one might hope - it is as a stopgap once again, and a revised TEP might work in conjunction with it in the future?

Good news, but still cannot afford to do the training.

[0-8]

It just goes to show how fickle the job market is.

Only 6 short months ago John Monks was at the Flyer flight training show saying that BA would not be recruiting anyone with a frozen ATPL for the foreseeable future. I guess 6 months *is* the foreseeable future in this industry…

I remember him saying that the order of preference was:

1) Candidates that are experienced and rated on the type they are being recruited to.
2) Candidates that are experienced on other types.
3) Integrated graduates.

He went on to say that as there is an abundance of candidates that fit in to categories 1 & 2, there would be no recruitment of low-houred people for a quite some time.

What does this tell us?
Are experienced candidates in short supply or is BA just not that appealing to many of them?

Either way, recruitment of low-houred pilots is good news for all wannabes.

[moo]

If you ACTUALLY read the thread MP, you will actually see that no-one is saying that it is exclusive to Oxford's APP. I in fact have stated that it is not exclusive to Oxford, as has WWW, as has chocksawayUK.
I hope the world is now a little better informed

Err, not really.

What you tell us about the conditions to be considered for the SSP is glaringly pointed out in Alex Whittingham's link. (which you haven't looked at - so you wouldn't know)

nope, nothing new there mate :ok:

[Magic Pie]

I have no wish to get involved in one of those oh so familiar and terribly exciting PPRUNE slanging matches so I shall keep this short.

Mr Moo, at which point did I say YOU had said that it was exclusive to Oxford? I merely pointed out that it was not exclusive to Oxford as someone else had raised the question at the early stages.

No I haven´t looked at the links as I thought I´d quickly summarize the situation in my post for those reading the thread. As it was, WWW etcs posts came up whilst I was in the process of typing my reply so beat me to it.

Calm down, it´s a commercial.....

As I said and I´m sure you´ll agree - positive news but no guarantees at all. Ciao. :cool:

[no sponsor]

So what's wrong with Modular students...?

[Alex Whittingham]

How about this as a 'spin-free' version, based on information received?

BA have identified a potential need for up to 24 recruits on terms similar to their old SSP scheme. The first to be called forward for the interview/selection process will be cadets selected before 9/11 and subsequently dumped who completed their training elsewhere. I believe several of these went to Jerez, several went through CTC (and are now flying for EasyJet) and one went to Oxford. BA are considering taking the remaining candidates from certain FTOs on a recommendation. The FTOs in the frame are Jerez, Cabair, Oxford and CTC. I'm led to believe that the decision to go beyond interviewing the previously selected cadets has yet to be made.

[superstall]

Has anyone had any contact with/from their fto's about this ba recruitment?
I've tried to call Oxford a few times but keep on going through to voice mail

[adwjenk]

Hey Guys

Glad to hear BA is recruting again.

Just a question does anyone know if this scheme is a one off or will it be run every year or twice a year i hope to start a integrated course in 2006??
Any info would be greatful but with the change in this industry it could be a one off!!

Cheers
ADWJENK

[er82]

>>I remember him saying that the order of preference was:

1) Candidates that are experienced and rated on the type they are being recruited to.
2) Candidates that are experienced on other types.
3) Integrated graduates.

He went on to say that as there is an abundance of candidates that fit in to categories 1 & 2, <<

I've been waiting desperately for BA to drop their requirements. They haven't yet advertised for any pilots who perhaps don't have a type rating but do have experience on other types. So how come they're going straight for low-houred guys straight out of training?

[moo]

so informative was your post that it has been deleted MP??!! ;)
You referred to me in your post so don't argue on a technicality.
I totally agree there are no guarantees, but it is very worthy news on this forum and by the number of hits, a lot of people are interested in this news. When you heard the news on Friday, you may not have wished to run to Pprune to tell everyone, but as a member of this forum for a reasonable length of time, I knew there would be particular members interested in this thread.
After all, that's what its here for aint it? :cool:

[Alex Whittingham]

You've overplayed reality a bit, moo.

"Ba Recruiting App Graduates!
This is hot off the press guys and gals - British Airways have asked Oxford for 24 APP graduates!"

I'm ready for time to prove me wrong here but BA, by your own admission, have not asked Oxford for 24 APP graduates. More like one bloke who went to Oxford having been previously dumped by BA is being asked back for an interview and they may ask Oxford and a few other schools for recommendations if they can't recover the cadets they had previously selected from the other airlines and jobs they ended up in.

Oxford's website is over egging the pudding to the point where its nearly all egg and no pudding. No change there, then.

[moo]

At the time of the post alex I was under the impression that the title of the post was true, and we are on a rumour forum. I was given more information today and from that I stated that the cadets were not exclusively going to be from Oxford, as I openly admitted.

[Alex Whittingham]

OK, fair point I suppose.

[TRon]

Here is a bit from the email he sent out:

'Their selection could take place in November or earlier. It should be noted that two other FTOs have also been approached but we anticipate that our graduates should get at least half of the places'

Good news for Oxford, hopefully this ups the moral there. They will be dining out on this bit of news for years, and there will be more APP loans taken out than ever......

It is at best 12 places for Oxford by Mike's own admission. Be interesting to see how APP grads get on.

We all knew if BA did start recruiting they would go to OAT, but lets not forget they are looking eleswhere...

[Cageflyer]

The comments made are incredibly interesting and make much discussion! I am currently embarking upon my commercial training and work for BA based a LHR as Cabin Crew. Having previously applied for the Oxford APP together with passing the aptitude tests but not being able to raise the money I am now faced, having worked 3 jobs and still continuing to do so, go modular or intergrated. From what I can gather from decision makers within BA everything is very positive for the future.
Being at the cross roads to go modular or with the APP Oxford course which means I will need to wait at least a year and half or two until I can start whilst I raise funds is challenging. Knowing the airline, it's culture, general trends and from what I can gather from those pilots online I have chosen to take the later option such that I can increase my chances of obtaining a job with the worlds favourite airline!
I know one thing, I have wanted to fly for 19 years and think the industry we all thrive to be within is the best in the world. Having worked for BA, and within a different industry our love, passion and dedication for a profession that has no comparison must be maintained throughout. I feel as though we must keep a positive view of everything within this industry so we help not just ourselves but everyone out there to obtain the same end point.
It's incredibly exciting to be joining the ranks of those on this forum who have completed what I am, not shortly, about to embark upon and salute you all. I hope this message is received as a statement of motivation to help you all attain your dreams. Keep going and please don't think I'm trying to be chessy of sucking up in any way!

[Pilot Pete]

He went on to say that as there is an abundance of candidates that fit in to categories 1 & 2, there would be no recruitment of low-houred people for a quite some time.

What does this tell us?
Are experienced candidates in short supply or is BA just not that appealing to many of them?
There was a post some months back which gave the inside track on what life in BA is going to be like for new joiners, I can't quite find it now, but well worth a look; it was an insider's view, not a jaundiced failed BA Wannabe with an axe to grind. I think this would answer your question. BA would appear not to be quite as appealing as it perhaps once was, especially for someone the wrong side of 30...........

PP

[Cabotage Kid]

Some thoughts:

The corporate "preferred supplier" paradigm is common across most industries and all large corporations.

I bet that BA and many other schools will recruit from Integrated schools as this fits in with the preferred supplier model. It prevents the time wasting and expensive (and tedious) process of advertising, networking, arranging, phone calling, etc that goes with piecemeal recruiting.

I imagine that they are well aware that all integrated schools turn out both excellent and sh*te pilots. But they avoid half the sifting process by asking the school who they should speak to. The school, with a reputation to maintain, will only want to put forward who it considers to be the best (however that is judged).

There are few posters on here that seem a little insecure and try to dress up the 'school of hard knocks' modular route or 'clean cut right stuff' integrated chaps. I'll bet in terms of the 'quality' gap you couldn't fit a rizzla between the two groups.

For a manager in a large organisations such as BA, it is both important to keep the costs low and the option of at least partial passing the buck should the general quality of the pilots being interviewed be lacking. After all, nobody ever was sacked for buying IBM; not true but not wide of the mark either.

That in my opinion is why BA and many other will nearly always look to the integrated bunch first, whenever possible.

However, the flip side is, once they have the names of the best 24 OAT candidates, I imagine they would be reticent to ask again from that intake so if you are not one of the chosen ones your advantage may have just gone *poof*.

Good luck to one and all,
CK

Edited: Howling error removed. "always look to the modular bunch first" should read "always look to the integrated bunch first"

[Lucifer]

I suppose the reason that modular students are not being sought is that one would have problems assessing the candidate - in terms of who exactly do you ask about one's performance if different schools have been used? It is simply a method of sorting from many hundreds of candidates to make the process manageable.

[Arrowhead]

FYI I just heard from internal BA sources that the entry criteria may change "in about 2 weeks". Also, there were hints that the criteria would loosen. This fits with what I have seen on this thread.

If you dont have a 737/744/777 type rating, or Integrated training, dont get too excited though....

[lotlwc]

A quick question as some have suggested to go the instructing route first.

What happens to the instructors that conduct the intergrated courses who where also once on them themselves?:confused:

[Canadiankid]

If you dont have a SSTR or Integrated training, dont get too excited though....

Ok from this comment I am assuming the company will not take experienced pilots unless they have a type rating on a BA machine. What a load of crap. Oh but if you went to a certain school and have a whopping 200 hours of piston engine hand held circuit time, your in. Boll%$!s.

I have and know dozens of pilots with 3000 hours plus of multi crew turbo prop and jet time that would like to work for BA. In some cases this includes heavy command time (50 tons plus) on numerous types flying worldwide. None on BA types? We don't want you. We want the highly experienced Oxford graduates.

Get in line folks and get some experience. BA may take some of you but saying they will not look at 'Our types' is just silly.

Oxford clearly brain washes many into thinking this way. Once you have paid your 60 grand plus things get a little clearer.

Sorry for the rant, but someone had to jump in on this one.

[scroggs]

Cabotage Kid has it spot on. This is BA going looking for candidates, and it wants someone to blame if they're not up to the mark. It's quite a different process from selecting from speculative applications.

Scroggs

[timzsta]

There is one other thing I feel that is overlooked. OAT used to have a major contract with BA running part of its Cadet Scheme, and similar setups with BMi. When 9/11 happened those airlines pulled those schemes within days - thus taking away a huge amount of OAT's business.

Now any contract between two business such as BA / OAT will almost certainly have clauses in it to protect the smaller player in some way. It just may well be that there was a clause which said that in the event of BA withdrawing the Cadet Scheme a percentage of any future BA recruitment had to come from OAT. Thereby Oxford could still attract business with the good old 'we have links to airlines' promo.

And BA need some pilots at the moment and low and behold they turn to Oxford to get some of them.......

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You are reading too much into it. BA have used every Integrated school (there only ever were 4) there has ever been. They periodically moved the contract about and dipped their toes in other schools waters.

OATS did get the bulk of BA cadets from the later 90's. But many said they were welcome to it - such was the discount that many believe no profit was made doing the training. Mind you - as a recruiting tool for more lucrative business it was a priceless contract.

There basically is NO difference between any of the large schools and to be honest the deal at smaller school is often better in my opinion. BA couldn't tell the difference between someone trained at Kiddlington, Jerez, Cranfield or Little-Piddlington-In-The-Marsh. And neither can anyone else.

Cheers

WWW

[Regis Potter]

What happens to the instructors that conduct the integrated courses who where also once on them themselves?

They move on to retirement ! Seriously though, a number of instructors asked about the chance of recommendation to one of the "contact" carriers following 9/11 & the inevitable redundancies at OAT. The response was swift : NO CHANCE !

I heard that BMed were taking on an APP graduate without any pre-screening or assesment; surely testament to the high quality product delivered by the programme ? What happened to that individual ?

[KrazyKraut]

Are 200-hr, piston, integrated students a safer bet than a non-BA-TR'd captain who wants to fly for BA? Are Oxford's integrated students an iota better than a modular guy from a smaller outfit? If they are, I'd like to see the evidence. I think CanadianKid has it right.

But in reality, it doesn't make the slightest bit difference why BA prefers to take integrated students. It may be the case that the biggest factor is the reduced administrative burden and the - apparent - "risk elimination" that a long-term, preferred supplied can provide over a smaller modular school, or even over a pilot who's flown for other large types for another airline. Of course BA will always make the decision which it deems the safest, cheapest and easiest for them, and no-one can really blame them for that.

But in my opinion the most annoying about this story is the Oxford way of marketing itself: Join us, and you'll land on the right seat of an airliner.

Does the recent uptake of a few integrated guys into BA guarantee any specific individual who now enrols on the APP a job at the end? No. Does it even increase his chances of getting straight into an airline? No. But hey, hand over your 60 grand, dress in a slick uniform, walk around feeling like a 747 captain - and you just might get there in the end! On the other hand, you might end up with a mountain of debt, low hours, and no job at all. For those who can easily gamble this sort of money, it may well be worth it. It's just sad that for so many others, the story ends in tears...

[scroggs]

Are 200-hr, piston, integrated students a safer bet than a non-BA-TR'd captain who wants to fly for BA?

KrazyKraut, BA are not recruiting integrated graduates instead of type-rated experienced people, but as well as those people. You surely don't believe that BA are just going to take 24 people this year, do you?

BA need to spread the ages of their recruits, or they end up with 'age bulges' which later bring 'retirement bulges', which are bad for planning your training programme. They are also one of the few remaining airlines which really do like the idea of employing a pilot from graduation to retirement. However, they never have, and probably never will, recruited only fATPLs, and the fATPLs they have recruited have not been exclusively from Oxford (or any other particular school).

Scroggs

[moo]

love em or hate em though, oxford have placed 108 (known) graduates this year alone....that's not a bad statistic given the shape of the market....

[Alex Whittingham]

Oh, please. We've got nearly that many sponsored with Easy & Thomas Cook, never mind all the hard working self-sponsored bods who've got places as far afield as Thailand and Newcastle. Its all guff, you can't check it, they're selling a product that has to show results now, or it's dead.

[Gunman returns]

Thailand and Newcastle! You said that in the same breath....I work in NCL..............would never move to Thailand...Thanks for asking

[KrazyKraut]

I agree. I wouldn't want to dispute the quality of the Oxford APP, it's one of the best-designed programmes out there.

But the point is this: spending the sort of money Oxford are asking means student are taking a big gamble, no matter what Mike Taylor and the glossy brochures might say. For those who have access to the funds, the same (Oxford) money can buy APP-level qualifications plus a TR on just about any type that pilots are currently being recruited for. And this, in my opinion, puts into question the unique selling proposition of the APP - which is its claim that OATS can provide cadets with a better chance of employment than any other school. Is the APP better than an fATPL from another school plus a TR? And in the context of BA, let's not forget that the fATPL+TR route would also bring any potential applicant a lot closer to getting a job there. Of course I'm aware that just an fATPL+TR is not enough for getting directly into BA as a DEP, but for recently qualified fATPLs a TR will certainly improve the chances with a lot of other carriers who are currently recruiting. For those that then really want to carry on to BA, it would therefore also enhance their chances there - given enough time to build the necessary hours.

As Alex Wittingham says, even without spending the Oxford money, or without buying a TR, students of many other schools have been equally successful in securing the first job. And as far as Oxford goes, it's true - given their investment in the APP and the associated facilities (which are remarkable) over the last 2 years, things would go downhill without the programme being able to recruit a steady stream of new cadets...!

Scroggs, I'm curious whether the BA decision to recruit both APPs and DEPs is based on a requirement to avoid 'bulges' down the line - given the relative age flexibility for both recruitment streams (a DEP might be younger than an APP graduate). I think it is more a case of meeting both the airline's short and long-term requirements.

[zzz]

Me thinks that BA are having to recruit straight from the flying schools due to the underwhelming response to their recent advert for type rated pilots.
Whilst I understand your keenness, be warned of the very long time to command!

cheers
zzz

[rotormad]

I'm an intergrated pilot currently at Cabair and apparently something went up on some board located somewhere saying something about BA wanting 24 guys/girls with 85% average and 1st time pass on IR..blah..blah..blah..It also said 'apparently' that they were looking at OAT (yeah i know what your thinking it came as a surpise to me too!!!), Cabair and Jerez!! So there you go straight out of some horses mouth!!

[moo]

errr, rotormad, if you read the thread you'll realise that what you say has already been said and is what this thread is all about??!!!

[rotormad]

Err, moo, i did read the post i was mearly pointing out that we at Cabair have been told 'officially' too...that's all...jeeze

[TRon]

Bottom line is BA dont want to open their doors to the whole wannabe community. They dont have the need, nor the manpower to cover this. So, they get the guys at the integrated schools to do all the work for them. Suddenly Oxford seem all empowered and can now flog APP courses for another year....

Hell, you dont have to pay your type rating, but the amount 'extra' you have paid for APP or integrated will cover this.

As for Oxford supplying a superior product in APP. Rubbish.

3 New Sims which, even the instructors will agree, are crap. I personally loved the refurbished aircraft, but make no bones about it, they were refurbed due to the sims coming in and taking the load of te flying program. If you want 40 essentially unloggable hours in an FNPT II which should actually be a king air, then be my guest.

You will get top class training from individuals, not poorly adjusted training aids, and no doubt meet some great coursemates. By god you will pay through the nose for it.

[KrazyKraut]

Tron , I think you are right - the news of BA recruiting APP graudates has two sides to it. On the one hand, BA gets the cadets which Oxford instructors consider to be 'suitably qualified', and resembling previous TEP candidates; the other one this is a great marketing coup for Oxford.

But - apart from BA's sheer manpower/retirement considerations - I'm actually wondering whether BA actually needs to recruit OATS graudates to meet long-term goals. Sure, it's a straightforward solution - qualified individuals who probably haven't screwed up anything in their previous aviation career (that being all of 200 closely guided hours), are being recruited.

But long-term, any airline can only survive by recruiting committed, high-quality individuals who are focussed and dedicated to the company. I wonder whether this goal is being met by BA's recent decisions. These graduates are new people who may be easily mouldable and 'fit in' with the same corporate paradigm that TEP cadet's have met years ago. But so many people - ranging from check-in agent to 744 captain - are pissed off with BA. I need not remind you how many are disgrunted with the way things are done, no matter whether it involves scheduling, pay, or benefits.

It may well be the case that new graduates will fit in well with whatever BA currently things its future captains should be like. Chances are, they can be moulded enough 'to fit'. But it's an illusion to think that a long-term solution to the problems BA is facing (particularly amongst its workforce) are resolved by taking on people who closely resemble the clones of the previous TEP cadet scheme. It's essentially a blast from the past. Aviation is changing. BA - in terms of so many aspects crucial to survival in today's competitive marketplace - has not. Under Captain Eddington, Shareholder value has become more important than any other consideration which a prosperous company needs for long-term survival. BA needs people who challenge the old paradigm, come up with new ideas, and are dedicated on taking the company into the future. NOT the old types who proudly wear the wings of The World's Favourite Airline and work there as drones until retirement. But finding individuals who meet this requirement (as well as being good pilots) is extremely difficult - so APP graduates seem to be the answer.

Oxford is a wholly different aspect. The APP isn't a superior product; it's just marketed better than many competitive programmes. Hey, how many image transformations has Oxford gone through in the last couple of years? New logos, new brochures, new web sites and marketing people have come and gone. Mr. Petteford may have gotten them to figure out the right way to get new customers eventually. But does this change the quality of the course? No. The APP remains an outrageously priced product which promises - essentially - nothing.

But it doesn't matter - although Oxford's products aren't superior, they're very good. Individual instructors do, of course, have a bearing on how good the 'product APP' actually turns out, but I think it's indisputable that the Oxford Instruction isn't bad.

What IS bad is the promise of a right-hand seat, which seems to have been further strenghtened by the recent BA coup. It's great news to all wannabes to see this as a "direct route in". But two things mustn't be forgotten: Oxford isn't the only option for first-class flight training, nor is BA the first-class choice as an employer that it once was...

[scroggs]

I wouldn't want to dispute the quality of the Oxford APP, it's one of the best-designed programmes out there

Says Oxford.....

Funnily enough, I have yet to find an independent endorsement of Oxford's APP scheme!

Scroggs

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Extra hours on a pretend-not-quite-real 737 Sim plus some interview coaching is how some have described it to me.

A fine course no doubt. Certainly staffed by excellent instructors and also well known in the industry.

Value for money remains in the eyes of the beholder.

Cheers

WWW

[Megaton]

If you think the quality of instruction is high, have you tried asking the RAF ME students who've been through there recently? These are winged pilots so their opinion is reasonably valid and they have no axe to grind since they're not paying for the tuition but I don't think many of them will sing Oxford's praises particularly highly.

[BigAir]

Ham,

Maybe the RAF guys at OATS have a slightly jaded view having been fast jet streamed, flown the hawk then told "sorry no jobs on fast jets anymore, off to Oxford for ME training"... it would piss me off and no matter how good the training was, I would not be happy with it.

In terms of the instructors I had, well they got me through everything first time under hours. So in my opinion they are good quality. Value for money in my eyes... but as you say that is in the eye of the beholder and I do know some pissed off people, but then I know their history and most of them have only themselves to blame.


BigAir

[darkbarly]

BA HR posted an internal advert on the 13th of OCT for applications from FATPL holders, currently employed WITHIN BA, to apply for their JOT training and pool. Restrictions were current CPL/IR, height, GCSE and age under 49.

Successful applicants would grad to the 737/a320 at LGW/LHR.

No type or minimum hours specified.

Can't be many of those within BA, will the next step be external advertising???

[tster744]

KrazyKraut


BA needs people who challenge the old paradigm, come up with new ideas, and are dedicated on taking the company into the future.

Total BA guff - careful if you spout it too much BA will recruit as a manager!

Despite all the corporate spiel the realities of what BA want from their employees and in particular pilots have become painfully obvious in 14yrs of working for them..
BA do not want 3500 managers who also happen to be pilots.

They do want 'malleable' pilots who they can strap to the RHS (and many many years later the LHS) and fly them right to the legal maximums (and beyond if they can twist the CAA to up the anuual limit). They want max productivity at min cost (and that includes min training cost - min ground training, min sim time, min route training , first time passes, min recurrent training)

Ur right a lot of BA is still stuck in the 70's - but it aint the pilots. 850+ hours in the last year at plain time, and the shorthaul guys are well above 700pa now - more productivity to come.

BA will recruit OATS approved graduates because they want to!
- and because they will deliver the above productivity over the long term (less likely with a co/type hopping dep) at min cost.
-because they meet the standard and have a proven training ability which will deliver min training cost.

[African Drunk]

Moo

You mentioned 108 students placed by OAT. A good friend who left OAT 3 years ago and slogged his guts out, in instructing and air taxi was suprised to find out that he was placed, by OAT with his current employers, which was news to him and them. I have heard similar stories from a couple of pilots at Logan Air.

Lots of schools could play that game if you set no time limit. I did my IR at BFC and if you took all the guys that took IR's that year they could claim graduates "placed" in companies from BA to Cathay.