Laser injures Delta pilot's eye

[Eboy]

"A pilot flying a Delta Air Lines jet was injured by a laser that illuminated the cockpit of the aircraft as it approached Salt Lake City International Airport last week, U.S. officials said. "


http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040928-111356-3924r.htm

[ImageGear]

A pattern may be developing here, I hope someone is taking notice in the UK.....

See Here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140569

[Mark McG]

Could the manufacturers of Aircraft Windscreens not develop a coating that would disperse Laser light that was aimed at a cockpit.

[blueloo]

Boeing can't even build a decent sun shade for their flight deck windows, they have no chance for a laser disperser!

:}

[Airbubba]

Here's a couple of posts off another board from a few days before the incident. These folks are laser "hobbyists" and one of them was bragging about "dotting" aircraft with an illegal (i.e. > 5mw) laser.

Posted September 18:

>>While I'm sure that looked really cool, please be careful about dotting airplanes. That could make the gummint really angry...<<

>>yes, i know...but i probably wont do it again...i just wanted to see if my laser was actually capable of dotting an airplane, like many people advertise. and, now i know that it's possible...i no longer need to prove anything.<<

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB3&Number=689510&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=365&fpart=all


A few somewhat more incriminating posts were removed earlier by the Candlepower Forums moderator.

These high power lasers are quite easy to buy online, for example:

"Hand held battery system up to 200 milliwatts of continuous optical power. Use for serious special effects star pointing, optical intimidation and experimentation. Includes a colliminator for ultra long range effect."

from: http://www.amazing1.com/green-lasers.htm

"Build a burning laser system using our sealed CO2 laser tube with special cooling. High efficiency current controlled power supply delivers over 100 watts of power to this directed energy beam device. Excellent demonstration of future weapons technology."

"Not only is the device a workhorse in welding, cutting and heat processing materials but it also is a likely candidate as an effective directed energy beam weapon against missiles, aircraft, ground-to- ground, etc..."

from: http://www.amazing1.com/burning-lasers.htm

[Loose rivets]

I'm really confused about the physics of lasers causing harm after passing through glass. Richard Feynman was so sure that high energy photons could not hurt his eyes, that he watched the first? Atomic explosion through a lorry windshield.

Is anyone an expert on this topic?

[lasernigel]

Loose Rivets
If you loook at my previous reply in this thread
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140569
I have tried to explain some facts about lasers.
I have worked on Lasers since 1978 military,medical and now industrial so have some experience.
Lasers can be absorbed by glass but that tends to be only those in around the 10.6 micrometer bandwith e.g. CO2 lasers.
Glass tends to let through most other bandwidths especially those in the visible spectrum eg Argon blue/green light and Krypton red light.
Contrary to what Airbubba says 200mW is not high powered enough to get up to an airplane tho this level is used in Opthalmic lasers to treat diabetics by a procedure called diabetic retinopathy and exposures of only 0.1 - 0.2 s to weld up leaky blood vessels within the eye.
Unfotunately old scientific lasers of upto 30W power in the visible spectrum are also available to joe public and with the right optics and a bit of knowledge could easily illuminate a airplane cockpit and cause eye damage.
IMHO these Laser systems should have a restriction on who can buy them.eg a licence.

[Airbubba]

>>Contrary to what Airbubba says 200mW is not high powered enough to get up to an airplane <<

Really? I guess all the folks "dotting" planes don't know that. Maybe the gravity makes the photons fall before they get that high...

[lasernigel]

Although I wouldn't normally come back to a remark Airbubba's has to be the most crass I've seen in a long time.

1.If indeed
I guess all the folks "dotting" planes don't know that
this is happening around your area maybe Cleatus the slack jawed yokel isn't that far behind.There must certainly be a lot of morons there.Duuuuh I'm just goin outside to paint me a plane with this laser I got from e-bay.

Maybe the gravity makes the photons fall before they get that high...

If you maybe knew just a smidgen about our atmosphere you will notice that we do not live in a pure vacuum.The air we breathe has all sorts of bits in it most of them not conducive for laser light transmission from a cheap e-bay 200mW laser with poor optics.
How close are these ' folks' to the planes???
Do not try to compare cheap lasers with the ones they use in light shows either.These are high powered with top quality optics.

[Airbubba]

>>this is happening around your area maybe Cleatus the slack jawed yokel isn't that far behind.There must certainly be a lot of morons there.<<

Yep, you sound like a real expert...

Anyway, the light from the little red and green aircraft nav lights somehow makes it through the mysterious atmosphere all the way to the ground. Wonder why that laser light just stops dead in its tracks? I'm sure us ignorant folks over here wouldn't understand your brilliant personal theories on coherent light propagation <g>.

>>How close are these ' folks' to the planes???

In some cases less than a thousand feet, near the airport boundary under an approach path.

[lasernigel]

Airbubba
Suppose I must be thankful that I worked for the oldest laser company in the world(American for 17 yrs)and I was "expert " enough to be sent worldwide.
Now working on a system(US) and there are only 6 systems worldwide.4 US 2 UK......Expert enough??????? Or do I need one of your $20 degrees available thro e-bay?
As I said Slack jawed yokels who stand
In some cases less than a thousand feet, near the airport boundary under an approach path.
shining their pretty little lasers at planes....Grow up BTW and tell the yokels the same thing.

[End_of_Descent]

lasernigel might be right saying that 200 mW laser power is not too dangerous a few 1000 ft away from the laser source

However, i'd rather argue that most lasers have an opening angle as well. That's very similar to that flash light in your cockpit but a laser has an opening angle which is very small. Nevertheless, being some distance away you'll notice and that laser spot is no longer a 1mm spot but rather an illuminated disk of maybe 0.5 meter radius. Hence the power per area becomes rather small. (But might still hurt the eye; but the eye reflex should give sufficient protection.)

@Loose rivets
Good ol' Dick Feynman was a great and clever physicist but I, too, believe he was wrong here. :rolleyes:
Bright light CAN damage your eyes, just look at all those fools staring into the sun before and after a total ecclipse of the sun without special glasses, hurting themselves despite all warnings in the media.
I figured that Feynman didn't know anything about lasers then, because they haven't been invented back in 1945. By the way, it's the number of photons - the intensity - that counts, not their energy. :D

EoD

[Airbubba]

Like I said, this guy sounds like a real expert...

[lasernigel]

Airbubba
You just had to have a final cheap shot didn't you!
Try a dept of 3 engs with 2 BSc's 1 MSc all in applied physics and laser technology and a total of over 50 years on lasers between us.Good enough??

Either way this should be treated with the seriousness it deserves,and maybe next time you see someone having a giggle pointing a laser at a plane round your way,point a pistol back and see how they like it.

[Airbubba]

>>lasernigel might be right saying that 200 mW laser power is not too dangerous a few 1000 ft away from the laser source<<

Yeah, maybe that was what he really meant to say when he said "...200mW is not high powered enough to get up to an airplane..."

>>Try a dept of 3 engs with 2 BSc's 1 MSc all in applied physics and laser technology and a total of over 50 years on lasers between us.Good enough??

Either way this should be treated with the seriousness it deserves,and maybe next time you see someone having a giggle pointing a laser at a plane round your way,point a pistol back and see how they like it.<<

He seems more than a little insecure with his own alleged credentials. Or maybe he just forgot his meds again with this nutty pistol talk. Perhaps another teen troll...

Whatever, I agree that even a "low power" low divergence class IIIb laser can be quite dangerous to the dark adapted eyes at less than a mile. The idea that the light won't "get up to an airplane" is utter nonsense.

[IDENTING]

now come on boys, no need to argue! although all this sarcasm flying about is very amuseing! i had a look at the link to the laser forum listed above, and on the whole they seem a pretty sensible bunch with a smattering of responsibility, except for one or two that seem a tad excited that they could point at a plane and light it. these few will screw it up for the enthusiasts who like to point at stars and try to hit clouds, and licensing probably will become necessary. but, they are all dribbling about the the powers avalable on ebay etc of around 20-40 to 100mw, so surely a 200mw laser will most certainly light up a flight deck from at least 1000ft? any comments children?:confused:

[Airbubba]

>>so surely a 200mw laser will most certainly light up a flight deck from at least 1000ft?<<

Yep, that would seem pretty obvious to most of us...

[Loose rivets]

Laser Nigel
Thanks for info. If it had been anyone else but Richard Feynman I would have disregarded the statement: I'll try to relocate the article again. With a windshield as think as an aircraft's, and typically a metallic film with enough substance to carry heating current, I would still be surprised if an amateur could blind a pilot. Also, I would have thought the angle that would have to be used, would be difficult to attain.

Incidentally, in the case of diabetic retinopathy, what is the diameter of the beam at the retina? 'scuse the thread slippage.

[visibility3miles]

For all the discussion here back and forth about what type of laser it was, it does seem to be a real event:

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595094973,00.html

Thursday, September 30, 2004

Laser beam injures eye of Delta pilot

Incident occurs as airliner is getting ready to land in Salt Lake

By Jennifer Dobner
Deseret Morning News

_ _ _ Federal transportation officials and FBI agents are trying to determine the source of a laser beam that illuminated the cockpit of a Delta Air Lines plane last week, damaging the eye of a pilot.
_ _ _ The incident occurred Sept. 22 as a Dallas-to-Salt Lake City Boeing 737 was about five miles from landing at the Salt Lake City International Airport. The pilot and first officer told officials of the Transportation Security Administration that the light was visible in the cockpit, with the first officer later reporting he felt a burning sensation in one eye. A doctor confirmed the man had suffered retinal damage.
_ _ _ The plane, however, landed without incident and nothing unusual was reported to airport officials, airport spokeswoman Barbara Gann said.
_ _ _ Local TSA investigators and FBI agents are investigating the incident along with the Joint Terrorism Task Force, FBI special agent Bob Wright said.
_ _ _ "We are right in the middle of trying to ascertain what caused this to happen," said Wright. "We look at it from a number of places, with pilot safety being our number one concern, passenger safety being number two and the general public safety our third priority."
_ _ _ TSA director Earl Morris said this is the first such incident to be investigated in the Salt Lake area.
_ _ _ Whether or not the incident could be an act of terrorism or simply a prank remains to be seen, officials said.
_ _ _ "We're not ruling anything out," Morris said.
_ _ _ Delta officials in Atlanta confirmed the incident but said little else. Company spokeswoman Tanya Dunne said she did not know the pilot's name, nor did she know anything about his present medical condition.
_ _ _ Lasers are readily available to consumers for a variety of purposes, from simple low-powered penlight type pointers used in business presentations to higher-powered devices used for medical, construction or entertainment purposes such as light shows.
_ _ _ Astronomy buffs use lasers when star gazing because the long reach of the beams makes it easier for the human eye to identify features in the night sky, said Ken Warner, a software engineer who is a member of the Salt Lake Astrological Society.
_ _ _ Those lasers are typically red or green. The green models are the brighter and more powerful of the two, with a potential beam reach of up to 25,000 feet, Warner said.
_ _ _ The laser beam seen by the pilots last week was green, officials said.
_ _ _ "One could potentially reach (airline) altitude," Warner said.
_ _ _ Scientific research work is also being done in Utah with the help of high-powered lasers, Utah State University professor Vincent Wickwar said. For nearly a dozen years at USU, a high-powered beam has been measuring the atmospheric temperatures above the university's Center for Atmospheric and Space Sciences. A second laser is atop the Space Dynamics Lab at the school, and Wickwar said lasers are in use at the University of Utah and at the Dugway Proving Ground. Wickwar's laser has a vertical-only reach of about 60 miles and wasn't in use when the Delta incident occurred.
_ _ _ "It's nothing that we could have been involved in," he said, adding that the potential dangers from a laser are real. "Basically the eye will focus on that . . . yes, there is a possibility of doing damage."
_ _ _ Federal Aviation Administration officials are well aware of the potential dangers. A 2001 report by the FAA's Western-Pacific Region indicated that from January 1996 through July 1999, there were more than 150 incidents of low-flying planes being illuminated with lasers. In a number of those incidents, pilots suffered some visual impairment.
_ _ _ Pilots are not overly concerned about such lights in the sky, said Mike Dunn, a Salt Lake-based Delta pilot who is also the spokesman for the Salt Lake chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association. Lasers first came to their attention a few years ago, when lasers became commonly used for promotional purposes along the Las Vegas Strip.
_ _ _ "It was not necessarily blinding, but distracting, and it turns out those things were high-powered lasers," Dunn said.
_ _ _ Still, lasers are not frequently a topic of conversation or concern, Dunn said. In flights Dunn has made in the past week, flight crews were not discussing the Sept. 22 incident, and Dunn said he first heard about it through media reports.
_ _ _ "On a daily basis, (pilots) don't concern ourselves with that sort of threat," he said. "It's one of several we face in the cockpit, but it's not high on the list. My take on it would be that what happened the other day was probably a prank."


E-mail: [email protected]
---------------
[Has anyone here checked with Delta to confirm the report?]

[chuks]

There have been previous newspaper reports of pilots being momentarily dazzled by laser lights. In one case there was a stadium rock event going on that resulted in a complaint about the laser light show bothering a flight crew.

There doesn't seem to be any concerted effort to control this problem, just an event-by-event reaction. Combine that with the access that dedicated nerds have to obsolete high-tech gadgets and you have the makings of a serious future problem. GPS jammers, lasers, radio transmitters... there is a whole gamut of toys available to people with nothing better to do with their lives than cause trouble, perhaps not really meaning to.

Even here you can see that some of the people responding are ignoring the real problem to nit-pick the technical aspects of other replies. What, they wouldn't mind being in the back of an aircraft with a crew having vision problems?

I have noticed that those little laser pointers are on sale, along with the usual tasteful assortment of other goods for semi-morons, on filling station shelves. We had one of our number amusing himself by shining one in the eyes of the other barflies one evening in our 'pub'. Perhaps we must wait for a report of one being used in the cabin of an airliner by bored and boozed-up SLF. I asked to examine the object in question, which had the usual warning message about possible eye damage. I suggested that he put his little toy away lest he be made the subject of a complaint but that was about all I could do at the time.

All of this seems to be part of a general trend towards the development of technology by geniuses that then trickles down to be (mis-) used by the hoi polloi. I remember chatting with a fellow who had a brain the size of a planet; he had access to one of the only two lasers in the state of Maryland back in about 1973. Now any jerk can buy one off the shelf.

We used to have people just zapping themselves trying to clean dead Indians out of their TV sets back in the Fifties. Then there was that celebrated idiot who got hold of a military surplus JATO unit that he built into the boot of his car, winning himself a Darwin Award. Now we have people bragging about 'dotting' aircraft. What next? Well, we have had a couple of dedicated enthusiasts firing off Strelas at an Israeli 757, only narrowly missing due to lack of training. Thanks to extensive de-briefings from the technical press they have learned where they went wrong so that they will presumably try again. That was perhaps the most extreme example to date of military technology escaping proper control, but it won't be the last one. And there are various non-military but high-tech devices out there, such as lasers, that can pose serious threats to civil aviation. If there is some study group paying attention to this growing problem I am not aware of it.

[lasernigel]

Loose Rivets Only too happy to answer your question,as opposed to getting sarcasm from people whose only knowledge seems to be cutting and pasting links.
Normally an opthalmologist would start to treat at a lower power than 'usual' settings.For most retinopathy a start spot size of 200 microns is used and a power of around 100mW and an exposure of 0.1-0.2 secs.What the opthalmologist is first looking for is effect eg a blanching of the sight over the vessel which is leaking and just enough to seal but not overburn on the sight.So by slowly altering the parameters for this effect the operation is carried out.Sometimes upto 2500 shots will be done at one sitting.Originally Argon lasers at 488nM-520nM were used but it was found that it was treated better and less painful for the patient if the blue light was filtered out and the green light component at 514-518nM was used.
Dye lasers at 585nM have been used as some opthalmologists think yellow light is the way to go and in fact the company I used to work for managed this using a Krypton tube with a different high reflector and filter to achieve this 561nM.
Red light can also be used to treat areas of the macula at 657nM.
No longer do diabetics have to go blind thankfully.

[FFFlyer]

Tx for the info LN, very interesting.

[Cayambe]

Not sure why all the fur is flying here. Seems there are some pretty basic facts here.

Can a 200mW laser "reach" a plane a few thousand feet above the ground? Well, it depends on the amount of cloud rain etc. and on the laser type but on a clear night with an Argon ion laser the answer is definitely yes. However, without some reasonably clever optics, the spot size would be very large by the time it got to the plane and it would be very unlikely to hurt the eyes of the pilots. They would not be dazzled or temporarily bilnded. They would notice the green / blue light and it might distact them somewhat. Clearly not a good thing. If the laser was more powerful, 10W or 20W say and somebody knew what they were doing (with a simple telescope on the end of the laser) then the potential for eye damage would be greatly increased. As a 20W Argon ion laser requires water cooling and a three phase electricity supply (not to mention about $50k to buy one) it is unlikely that yer average amateur boffin would be able to run one in his shed.

Richard Feynman was a brilliant Noble Prize winning physicist. He absolutely never said or believed that lasers could not hurt your eyes. You are confusing what he said about radiation and looking at a nuclear explosion. That had nothing to do with lasers - there are all different kinds of radiation - not just visible radiation e.g. light.

[410]

In the very same book where he predicted (or quite possibly germinated the idea of) someone crashing an airliner into a major public building, Tom Clancy had his spook heroes John Clark and the Hispanic guy (Rameriz?) zapping the eyes of the pilots of two Japanese AWACS 767s with lasers as they approached to land at their home base, causing both aircraft to crash.

Anyone interested in giving himself a goodfright might like to take a look through some of these sites.
http://nrac.onr.navy.mil/webspace/exec_sum/88lasereye.html
http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IAV/is_3_90/ai_82009542
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/ap036.htm

[End_of_Descent]

Talking not about lasers but about Richard Feynman again ... the full quote was printed in his collection of adventures "Surely your joking, Mr. Feynman" in the chapter "Los Alamos from Below".

True, he did not have lasers in mind but look at the original text:
"20 miles away, you couldn't see a damn thing through dark glass. So I figured the only thing that could really hurt your eyes (bright light never can hurt your eyes) is UV light. I got behind a truck windshield, because the UV can't go through glass, so that would be safe ..."

True, ultraviolet light is strongly absorbed in glass, but bright light CAN damage your eyes. I still believe that Feynman was wrong here. :eek:
Since the sun's light can damage your light, a nuclear flash might be able to achieve the same. It's all about brightness and exposure time. While a brief look into the sun should be fine, a brief look into a high power laser usually isn't. :ouch: Probably the nuclear flash was just for too short a time, that's why nothing happened with Feynman.

Besides ... glasses used for laser protection in the lab are usually specially adopted to a certain laser wavelength. Glasses which keep green laser light out are transparent to red lasers. So protecting cockpit glasses just won't work for all lasers around.

EoD

[Cayambe]

410

The problem with Clancy novels and James bond films is tah they ignore the reality. A class 3 laser taht could really hurts someones eyes at a range of a 1000ft or more is a big bulky thing. You probably need a forklift to shift the power supply of some of these things. There the chance of someone hding in a crowd and shining one is pretty remote. They are not easily disguised into an Omega writs watch unlike the one that 007 has which can cut metal!!!

As my laser prof. used to say - the best way of hurting someone with a laser is to drop it on them.....

[2close]

Looking at this from the GA point of view, notwithstanding that they do not present as great a risk to persons and property on the ground, is there just as much or even greater risk to pilots of slow moving light aircraft with a sheet of cling film for a windscreen and flying at a far lower altitude?

Most of my local GA traffic tends to be between 1500 - 3500'.

I was informed of an incident not so long ago of the local pond-life amusing themselves with a bundle of fireworks and something akin to a length of scaffolding pole, knocking up a home-made RPG and firing it at (and apparently hitting) the police helicopter.

If they got their hands on this, they would really be in their elements!

Be grateful for any learned advice.

2close

[Danny]

Well, perhaps we can stop the one-upmanship between Airbubba and LaserNigel and return to debating the issue of someone maliciously or otherwise pointing a laser into a pilots face. I can assure you, from personal experience, that even a little Class III laser pointing into your eyes can cause serious, even if only temporary, problems.

A few years ago, waiting to depart at night from runway 35 at Corfu there was a "Cleatus, slack jawed yokel" who probably thought it would be amusing to stand on the road that passes less than 100m from the threshold and shine his laser into our flightdeck. I first noticed the light dancing around on the Captains face and turned to my right only to receive the red glow as it danced across my eyes a few times. As soon as I realised that there was a dipstick pointing his laser at us there followed the usual farce of trying to explain to the tower what was happening and could they please give us a take off clearance so we could get on our way.

To cut a long story short, I experienced spots in my eyes for the next 20 minutes or so. They were distracting and caused some concern for a while. THey did wear off and thankfully there was no lasting damage but to go on about how they are not to be worried about, is quite frankly, a bit of a problem. At night, whilst the eyes are accustomed to the low light level and just before a departure towards a big mountain with a turn out over a dark sea can become a few more layers in the Swiss Cheese if you are not careful.

These small lasers, never mind the more powerful ones, can cause problems even if they don't actually damage your eyes permanently. To dismiss them as being "not serious" is to ignore the circumstances of what they can do and if the dipstick who is pointing it has thought through the consequences of their actions.

[Anne.Nonymous]

Over a year ago there was an instance of a green laser tracking an A321 on finals to Heathrow at night. The Flight crew saw the green light dancing around the flight deck and could see the source north of the ILS path.

It was reported and investigated by the authorities but nothing further came of it. It is almost impossible for the authorities to act quickly enough to catch the idiots that do it.

Anne :O

[Daysleeper]

Well when we all get our anti SAM lasers perhaps we can mod them to fight back :D

[jayteeto]

Just got dazzled by a laser tonight while hovering at 1000' over Wallasey. I spotted the little s**t and we trained the NiteSun on his bedroom window. My light was bigger than his!! Seriously though, we are regularly lasered and regularly have fireworks launched at the helicopter. Sadly a fact of life these days :sad:

[Airbubba]

>>I can assure you, from personal experience, that even a little Class III laser pointing into your eyes can cause serious, even if only temporary, problems<<

Yep, that's my opinion, however unpopular in more learned quarters <g>. If I had only finished grade school...

>>Federal Aviation Administration officials are well aware of the potential dangers. A 2001 report by the FAA's Western-Pacific Region indicated that from January 1996 through July 1999, there were more than 150 incidents of low-flying planes being illuminated with lasers. In a number of those incidents, pilots suffered some visual impairment.<<

Here's the 2001 FAA report which concludes that even low powered laser pointers can somehow "get up to an airplane" and be dangerous in critical phases of flight:

"Conclusions: Laser pointers have caused ocular injury and may compromise aviation safety when used to illuminate aircraft in critical phases of flight..."

http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/aam-400A/Abstracts/2001/FULL%20TEXT/0107.pdf

Also, from a 2003 FBI bulletin:

"...The majority of laser pointer illuminations cause reactions of startling, after imaging, or flash blinding. However, if the laser is powerful enough or sustained on the eye long enough, eye damage can occur. Additionally, bundling lasers, or "six-packs," is a technique that gangs in California have used against law enforcement helicopters. Many varieties of pointer lasers exist and some that project a beam that can reach 1,500 feet cost as little as $15. For a helicopter operating at night between 500 and 1,000 feet, laser beams can present a real threat to pilot safety."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_4_72/ai_100876733

[Daysleeper]

ok its not a LASER but from today 2nd Oct Guardian

S**** O**** 38, of Darlington, who twice shon a powerful lamp into a police pilot's eyes, causing him to abort a landing at Teeside airport, was branded a "dangerous idiot" by judge David Bryant at Teeside crown court. Orr was given 200 hours community service with £912 costs.

[Loose rivets]

Thanks for the info LN and C, it does seem that the danger lies in the concentrated energy of relatively low energy photons - when they are combed into an ordered beam. I imagined that the photons that leave the inner surface of the windshield are not those that enter the glass, and can only have the energy that the latter glass structure can provide. Feynman threw himself on the lorry floor by the way, and could only see a huge mauve flash for the next while, but it does seem that the pilot really did come to harm; the information coming in is certainly cause for serious concern.

The UK legislated quite quickly on the random sale of cheap lasers, but the determined will still find a source. There will always be people that have no concept of responsibility for their actions. It seems that age has little to do with concern for others; the Teeside defendant being an indicator. Prior to lasers, there were the ****** that dropped concrete blocks off motorway bridges...they just don't care, they feel no compassion.

I have always been against deterrent sentencing in principal, but I feel that it is time that, after appropriately promulgated warning, that people willfully endangering an aircraft, or indeed vehicular traffic in this manner, get a lot more to think about than community service.

[lasernigel]

Thanks Danny I tried to keep my answers on this thread sensible 'til diverted by
Yep, that's my opinion, however unpopular in more learned quarters <g>. If I had only finished grade school...
If my answers and what I had written in another thread had been read properly most ppruners would have seen that at no time have I condoned the use of these or other Lasers into the hands of Joe Public.In fact am all for withdrawal of Lasers for any use other than what they were designed for e.g industrial,scientific or medical use,and IMHO some sort of licensing is needed along with hefty fines dished out to those who use them maliciously.

[Airbubba]

Apology accepted, let's move on...

[Whippersnapper]

Regardless of how effective these lasers are (and I suspect they would be very effective at short range on landing aircraft), the individuals using them are trying to endanger or destroy aircraft. By definition, this is an act of terrorism, and 200 hours community service is not an appropriate punisment. Hanging is.

[Airbubba]

Thursday December 30, 11:34 AM

FBI Probes Laser Beam Directed at Cockpit

Authorities are investigating a mysterious laser beam that was directed into the cockpit of a commercial jet traveling at more than 8,500 feet.

The beam appeared Monday when the plane was about 15 miles from Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, the FBI said.

"It was in there for several seconds like (the plane) was being tracked," FBI agent Robert Hawk said.

The pilot was able to land the plane, and air traffic controllers used radar to determine the laser came from a residential area in suburban Warrensville Heights.

Hawk said the laser had to have been fairly sophisticated to track a plane traveling at that altitude. Authorities had no other leads, and are investigating whether the incident was a prank or if there was a more sinister motive.

In Colorado Springs, Colo., Monday night, two pilots reported green pulsating laser lights shined into their cockpits. Both the passenger plane and a cargo plane landed without problems.

Police dispatched patrol cars and a helicopter to a neighborhood to investigate but found nothing. FBI agents were continuing to conduct interviews, agency spokeswoman Monique Kelso said.

Federal officials have expressed concern about terrorists using laser beams, which can distract or temporarily blind a pilot.

A memo sent to law enforcement agencies recently by the FBI and the Homeland Security Department says there is evidence that terrorists have explored using lasers as weapons. Authorities said there is no specific intelligence indicating al-Qaida or other groups might use lasers in the United States.

In September a pilot for Delta Air Lines reported an eye injury from a laser beam shone into the cockpit during a landing approach in Salt Lake City. The incident occurred about 5 miles from the airport. The plane landed safely.

Lasers are commonly used in a number of industries and are featured in outdoor light shows.

The FAA mandates that laser light shows must register their locations and the lights cannot be directed above 3,000 feet. Lasers are also often used by construction companies to line up foundations.

Interfering with a commercial flight is a felony punishable by up to five years in prison.

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/041230/ap/d879nei00.html

_______________________________________________


Green Lights at Airport
Lasers Cause Problems For Pilots

Associated Press

Federal officials are investigating reports from two pilots who say bright lights were aimed from the ground into their cockpits as they headed into the Colorado Springs Airport.

Both planes landed without problems on Monday night.

Federal officials issued a warning this month that terrorists might try to down aircraft by shining powerful lasers into cockpits to blind pilots during landing approaches.

The pilots heading into Colorado Springs about 8-30 p-m Monday reported a bright, pulsating light shining into the cockpits. Colorado Springs police say the pilots described the lights as "green laser lights."

F-B-I spokeswoman Monique Kelso says authorities haven't determined what type of light was used, and F-B-I agents are conducting interviews.

http://www.kktv.com/home/headlines/1309846.html

[Memetic]

A bit off topic but I stumbled across a site for this Alaskan company (http://www.greatlandlaser.com/) making LASER "flares" and LASER airport markings which might be of interest to some of you.

[rotornut]

Does anyone recall the incident involving a U.S. military plane a few years ago? Apparently it was alleged that the pilot was blinded by some kind of laser device from a Russian freighter or trawler off the B.C. coast.

[Wino]

In 1993 I was working for Grand Airways based in Las Vegas when the Rio hotel went up.

They put up a laser light show as part of their advertising for the new hotel that turned out to be aimed up the arrival cooridor for McCarren Airport (LAS).

Grand Airways had 2 pilots injured and America West has a few as well. This went on for 3 weeks before they moved it.

This is nothing new unfortunately, just getting more and more common.

Cheers
Wino

[MonkeyintheCockpit]

The threat is real, and is preventable. There needs to be a more powerful response when things like this occur.

An accident is an accident, but the intentional pointing of a laser or bright light into an aviation cockpit not only endangers the pilot but numerous people, both on and above the ground.

I had a laser pointer run across my eye from across the room once; thankfully there was no permanent damage, but my eye did tear up and burned for over a month before it healed itself.

[innuendo]

Rotornut,
I have been trying to find something on that incident. I seem to remember reading that one of the people involved suffered long term damage to his vision. Not sure what to use to Google it but the info must be around.

Rotornut,
Should have looked a bit more.

"The crew of the Canadian CH-124 Sea King helicopter received hostile fire from a laser weapon on the Kapitan Man," Mr. Smith said. "As a result of this unprovoked attack in U.S. waters, Cmdr. Daly\'s eyes were permanently burned, as was the right eye of the helicopter\'s pilot, Captain Barnes, which ended his flying career."

This would be the case you were referring to. Not sure what kind of laser was used. The Russian vessel was searched but nothing found. Probably at the bottom of The Strait of Juan de Fuca.

[rotornut]

OK, thanks for finding that:\

[agfoxx]

Here's from the BBC:


US probes 'laser-tracked' flights

US investigators are examining a spate of cases in which laser beams have been shone into the cockpits of aircraft.

The most recent case was in Cleveland, Ohio, on Monday night, where a pilot says a green laser light was shone through the window of his cockpit.

The light tracked with the plane for several seconds as it came in to land.

The FBI, worried that terrorist may use lasers to stun and disorientate pilots, is investigating a series of similar incidents involving lasers.

The FBI has recently warned law enforcement agencies that terrorist have explored using lasers as weapons. However, authorities say they have no specific intelligence to link the incidents with al-Qaeda activities in the US.

"It didn't just splash and vanish, which made the pilot believe he was being tracked," FBI agent Robert Hawk told AFP news agency.

The pilot landed the plane and the FBI traced the beam to a residential area of Cleveland.

Six similar incidents are being examined by the FBI.

On Monday, two pilots in Colorado reported green pulsating laser beams in their cockpits in Colorado Springs. Both planes landed without incident

[Airbubba]

Wow, first I heard of this <g>...

[Ignition Override]

This topic reminded me of warnings not long ago about Las Vegas casinos in an ALPA magazine safety article, and I just now noticed Wino's comments- am surprised that this was not brought up sooner. Edited for unneeded duplication.

Can the FBI attempt to prosecute anyone, whether at a casino or not, who intentionally shines these into a c@ckp1t/flightdeck, on a repeated basis? The FBI might not want to publicize the fact that some of these are a threat. Some segments of the flying public are not too different from mindless sheep or chickens anyway. A police helicopter might "troll" for the location of any powerful beams coming from devices which are in private hands, in residential or isolated areas. They already patrol for marijuana patches and meth labs in the south and midwest. I am all for a stiff warning then prosecution when called for, after a repeated offense. Maybe have two car loads of pilots ( take a few Navy SEALS along in an 'advisory capacity') drive repeat offenders into the desert for a chat with a few rattlesnakes, as incentive, then bring him/them back to Vegas etc with something to contemplate. This gives the nickname (for a Nevada area which does not exist) 'Dreamland' a whole new meaning.

H.G. Wells seems to have anticipated these in his story "War of the Worlds".
:suspect:

Maybe the government should have lists of which facilities/casinos have the more powerful versions, in case some are stolen.:ouch:

[flowman]

Sounds like some lunatics playing with their new Christmas toys.

[OVERTALK]

www.lasershoppe.com

has acknowledged that they've stopped selling the powerful green LASERs that are being used to annoy pilots on approach

[410]

See

http://nrac.onr.navy.mil/webspace/e...88lasereye.html
http://articles.findarticles.com/p/..._90/ai_82009542
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/ap036.htm

[arcniz]

In the 70's I spent many happy hours devising laser-beam steering mechanisms, electronics, software, etc. for light shows and other purposes, with laser-beam power levels of 1 to 20 watts. Back in the days when laser shows were completely unregulated, relatively basic and mostly hand-made technology cribbed together for the occasion was up to the task of writing legible text on a wall (or cloud).
This was also before the advent of high-power semiconductor lasers, so most of the light sources were great hulking water cooled boxes with 10 or 20 KW coursing thru them to make the beam, and water cooling to keep the temps down at the prevailing power efficiencies of 0.007 percent or so. They weren't portable in any sense.

These days, permits and inspections and such, along with thick rule books, impose tight controls on aerial discharge of light beams... with procedures specifically intended to prevent eye damage in the event of casual unintended contact.

Laser diodes have made the optical power source easier to carry and afford, but beam aiming is still very challenging at any long distance if done from anything but a superstable platform. Successfully putting a single beam through a small window aperture on a rapidly-moving target, in real time, and on short notice is not really much easier than it would be with a projectile weapon. Doing that continuously or even repeatedly for one or two seconds seems very nearly impossible to me, using manual or simple mechanical and electronic means for aiming.

The one simple technique that would "appear" to work for such a time duration is to scan the target vicinity quite rapidly with the beam (perhaps spread out to make it cover a wider surface) moving in a pattern that would tend to periodically sweep all points on a larger surface. This process of "waving it around" greatly dilutes the cumulative beam power on any surface, however, be it eyeball or skin.

Because the mechanism of damage from laser light is tissue heating at the microscopic scale, the cumulative intensity on a surface in a given period of time is the metric of danger for permanent damage. I don't have the tables handy, but my intuitive guess is that
100 mw at the source for example, would not be able to cause much ocular tissue damage after a few hundred meters of normal surface atmosphere, however well it might be aimed and focussed at the source.

With even 5 mw of distant visible beam, one certainly is very aware of being targeted. The brightness of frequent flashes can be subjectively quite spectacular, and certainly would be a worrisome distraction during night flight.

It might be some consolation to know that truly damaging laser light works so rapidly that one tends to not actually even see it.

More sophisticated methods, which I will not detail here, can be applied to provide near continuous tracking with a laser beam of a spot on distant moving surface, but the cost and complexity to do any of these in a field-able way would take them far out of the kitchen-table category, and the result even then would probably not be readily capable of reliably "blinding" the unhappy recipient after running through the atmosphere, window material, etc. Anyone with the motivation, skill and budget to produce that type of device would likely be able to devise much more dangerous effects with equivalent effort.

So, my guess would be that the actors in many of the inflight illumination incidents are amateurs...trying to find something interesting to point at with their expensive toys.

[flowman]

Er, yes. That's what I meant to say :O

[Algy's Monocle]

What would be the experience of pilot of a slow-moving, low-flying GA aircraft, turning final only 500’ above some oik with his laser pen? The effects may not be permanent, but a solo pilot seconds from landing is presumably very vulnerable?

I seem to remember Steve “I can’t hold her, she’s breaking up, she’s breaking up” Austin, The Bionic Man, when faced with a similar situation, reverted to breaking the glass on his AH and flew truly blind by the feel of his fingers…:suspect:

[Dan Winterland]

It's not just the lasers that are a problem. There are 1 million candlepower handheld torches available now. My local garage will sell you on for £6.99 if you buy 6 quids worth of fuel. I mention this, as some pillock shone one at me (I assumed it was one of these due to it's brightness) while I was at 3DME on the approach to 06R at MAN a couple of weeks ago.

[ImageGear]

From a CNN report 5 minutes ago:

Citing the targeting of an approaching aircraft at Cleveland.

FBI to aggressively "go after" laser users targeting aircraft.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/US/12/29/laser.plane/index.htm

ImageGear

[LatviaCalling]

The following is a message I received from a professional photographer friend regarding the laser threat:
---
What concerns investigators is the apparent ability of the "Laser Dudes" to TRACK the cockpits, over a period of several seconds, and to "wash," or mechanically oscillate the beam into a wide-coverage pattern of the cockpits with the laser beam.

As a matter of personal perspective, as a photographer... if you were to attempt to track a landing aircraft with a camera, and a 400mm telephoto lens, you could not hold the camera/lens steady enough, without some mechanical support, to follow the aircraft smoothly.

Motion Picture cameramen, and still photographers who specialize in aviation, use fluid-damped tripod heads, very big and very expensive, and shoot a LOT to edit out a small amount of footage, or a few sharp, well-composed frames.

It is clear that these events are NOT some overweight, freckle-faced, red-headed 16-year-old kid with a laser pointer. Whoever it is has sophisticated equipment.

Minimally, it would have to be a heavy-duty tripod with a fluid head, and probably a computer controlled platform.

More evidence for computer-control is the "washing" of the cockpits. This requires a C-C platform, and the same sort of software that moves the lasers used in Laser Light shows, in dance clubs and at public events, as it has to vary the "aim" of a single small-diameter beam around the target area at
many times per second.

Finally, the reports include that not all these Laser Events are red
lasers. Some are reported as blue-green.

I have not seen a blue-green laser pointer, although I would happily be corrected on this matter by anyone who uses these things regularly.

[RiverCity]

Just noticed this on CNN.com

(CNN) -- Law enforcement officers were questioning a Parsippany, New Jersey, man who they say may have pointed a laser beam at an airborne police helicopter Friday night and a Cessna aircraft two nights before, said a spokesman for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

The officers spent much of Friday trying to determine the source of the laser beam reported by a Cessna pilot Wednesday night, spokesman Steve Coleman said. The flight was carrying about a dozen passengers.

As a Port Authority helicopter circled the New York area Friday, using information from the Cessna pilot, someone aimed a laser beam at the aircraft between 5 p.m. and 7 p.m., Coleman said. He said the helicopter had Port Authority markings.

There were no injuries or other problems from either incident, he said.

The man was being questioned at his home by members of the FBI-New York Police Department Joint Terrorism Task Force and FBI agents. He has not been arrested, Coleman said.

Coleman said authorities were trying to determine whether the man might have been involved in similar incidents.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/31/aircraft.laser/index.html

[Airbubba]

>>It's not just the lasers that are a problem. There are 1 million candlepower handheld torches available now.

Yep, another report of a possible Christmas light incident:

__________________________________________


Bright light near airport bothers pilot

By Mike Gordon

Advertiser Staff Writer

Somewhere on O'ahu today, a homeowner is rethinking the number of outdoor lights he turns on at night after the Federal Aviation Administration and Honolulu police told him they bothered a commercial airliner pilot making his approach to Honolulu International Airport. Authorities couldn't say today, though, if the lights were part of a Christmas display.

The problem began just after midnight Monday when a pilot on a commercial flight from Los Angeles complained about "a very bright, bright light" near the airport, said Donn Walker, an FAA spokesman based in Los Angeles.

"I don't know if the bright light made it hard for him to see," Walker said today. "I don't know how well he was able to see because of the light. All I know is that it was bright enough for him to report it."

The flight landed safely, and Walker said he did not know if the pilot was ever in danger of losing control of the airplane.

But at the FAA's request, Honolulu police searched the area Monday night and found a likely source of the problem: a very blue and green floodlight from a home.

Authorities told the homeowner to unplug the light, Walker said.

Police then checked the area on two nights, including a noisy 11 p.m. helicopter search yesterday near Mariner's Ridge.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2004/Dec/30/br/br05p.html

[RiverCity]

Follow-up on New Jersey laser incident (which I posted above):

PARSIPPANY -- The attorney of a Lake Parsippany resident questioned by authorities about his suspected use of a laser light said Saturday her client was in the "wrong place at the wrong time."

David Banach was showing his daughter a common laser pointer that he had purchased on the Internet, said attorney Gina Mendola Longarzo. Longarzo said she met with Banach on Saturday.

"At one moment he was in the backyard playing with his daughter," said Longarzo, "and 10 minutes later 12 police cars descended and he was whisked away by authorities and interrogated until 4 a.m."

Banach was taken from his Pitman Road home Friday by state, local and federal authorities investigating the shining of green lasers onto aircraft flying over the region.

For the complete story, click on the local newspaper's URL:
http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/articles/news2-laser.htm
(It doesn't add much to the excerpt I have posted here.)

[UNCTUOUS]

<<<<What concerns investigators is the apparent ability of the "Laser Dudes" to TRACK the cockpits, over a period of several seconds, and to "wash," or mechanically oscillate the beam into a wide-coverage pattern of the cockpits with the laser beam.>>>

Rifle with high power scope and laser mounted on the rifle-rail. Tracking from a head-on oblique aspect with the rifle on a bipod mount shouldn't be all that shaky. There's adverts for those type rigs all over the Internet.

[Fokker28]

LN, I hope you don't think your expertise goes unappreciated here. Thanks for the info.!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if this has been said before, but:

Surely there must be some missiles that will backtrack the laser? Even if you don't want to fit them, fully automated, to every airliner, police helicopters could carry them? They wouldn't need much of a payload, about hand grenade size should do so as to take out the laser (and the terrorist holding it) but do little or no collateral damage.

[RiverCity]

That's all well and good if you are dealing with a terrorist. But if it's some idiot in his backyard spotting planes (check back a dozen posts), a grenade or two isn't going to make good press for your airline/police department. 90 seconds on the evening news, with video of the amateur being led off in handcuffs will probably suffice in such circumstances.

Problem is, at the time you most likely will not know if it's a terrorist or an @hole.

[yazman]

idiot in his backyard spotting planesThe term for this nonsense is dotting planes. I know plane-spotters are generally denigrated on these forums, but they are harmless and get a bad enough press as it is.

[RiverCity]

Thank you; correction noted.

[Airbubba]

This is getting worse than 'powdermania'...

Cockpit Laser

01-02-2005 -- Nashville

NASHVILLE, Tenn -- An investigation is underway Sunday night at Nashville International Airport after an airline was hit by a laser beam. An FBI spokesman says United Airlines Flight 7136 from Nashville to Chicago landed safely. The FBI and TSA say the flight was flashed by a laser while it was about 3,000 feet above ground. The flight was able to continue...but the transportation security administration is looking into the matter. Lasers could blind or disorient pilots and could cause a plane to crash. Federal agents are investigating similar incidents across the country. Just last month, the Homeland Security Department issued a memo warning terrorists may be exploring using lasers as weapons. However, there is no evidence the Nashville incident is connected to terrorism.

http://www.wztv.com/cgi-bin/csNews.cgi?database=FOX%2017%20News%2edb&command=viewone&id=4634&op=t

[arcniz]

LatviaCalling wrote:

What concerns investigators is the apparent ability of the "Laser Dudes" to TRACK the cockpits, over a period of several seconds, and to "wash," or mechanically oscillate the beam into a wide-coverage pattern of the cockpits with the laser beam.

If you have a beam oscillating all over hell and gone, "tracking" is easy. Is much harder to "track" with a powerful beam concentrated in a few mmsq than to shake the beam over the area the size of a barn.



It is clear that these events are NOT some overweight, freckle-faced, red-headed 16-year-old kid with a laser pointer. Whoever it is has sophisticated equipment.

More likely a flabby office worker with money to burn and less respect for aircraft than your average 16-year old.
A laser pointer IS sophisticated equipment.


Minimally, it would have to be a heavy-duty tripod with a fluid head, and probably a computer controlled platform.

Not so.. I can show you 5 different ways to get this general result with things one can buy quite cheaply in a grocery store.


You seem sincere in your concern about this problem, but you are missing the points about spreading laser power over a large area: a) the hard part is holding a beam still on a "target" surface, and b)any sort of scanning reduces the point contact power of even very powerful beams to such a tiny fraction that the direct health hazard goes away... although the annoyance surely persists...and is more likely to be seen.

[yazman]

Just last month, the Homeland Security Department issued a memo warning terrorists may be exploring using lasers as weapons. However, there is no evidence the Nashville incident is connected to terrorism.There is no evidence that any of these incidents has the remotest connection to terrorism. The only 'hostile' action was that against the Sea King off Vancouver Island, the rest are simple bloody stupidity.

I imagine terrorists would want to down an airplane, requiring a great deal more powerful 'weapon' than your local Radio Shack carries. Will that be before or after they perfect their rail gun, I wonder ? :rolleyes:

[Ignition Override]

One problem, besides taking all of our eyes away from the altimeter and airspeed etc which is a bad idea, is the risk to our eyes if trying to just see where it comes from, another really bad idea. How could we begin to locate the origin? A suspect and conviction would help deter wannabes.

A police helicopter would really help. Maybe the spotter could wear goggles used during early nuclear tests and mark the laser origin with his own laser until the pilot circles the, eh, 'target', and helps the local squad car to find the jerk(s).:eek:

Taking any such jerk on a tour of the local prison, having lunch with potential pals, might result in 'behavior modification'.

[Airbubba]

>>The Source of the LASER "WeaponS"

www.lasershoppe.com

has acknowledged that they've stopped selling the powerful green LASERs that are being used to annoy pilots on approach<<

A review of the >100mw portable green laser that this guy was selling is here:

http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/second/pgliii.htm

As of a couple days ago, he's been persuaded by the FBI to stop importing this product:

______________________________________________


Guys, I would strongly recommend against trying to import these into the US right now. I spent an hour on the phone this morning with a Special Agent from the FBI, and that's why I cancelled the orders. Just forget about these lasers. Trust me on this. It's not worth having a search warrant served and your house raided by a bunch of agents with guns.

When shipping to the US, CNI most certainly DOES indicate on the outside of the shipping box that there are lasers inside. There is no way to get these into the US without being put on a list and receiving a call from the FBI.

Too many people are lighting up airplanes with lasers, and if you import one (or more) of these, the authorities are going to assume that you intend to do the same thing. The whole situation is really bad right now. Idiots with lasers, media hype, ignorance, confusion, and a bunch of FBI agents who are under pressure to do something about it all. If you don't want to be made an example of, then just forget about owning a PGL-III laser and use the money for something else right now.

That's my advice. LISTEN TO IT. You can't say you weren't warned.

From:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=lasers&Number=795569&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=186&fpart=all
_____________________________________________

By all accounts he was importing the lasers legally as far as U.S. Customs (or whatever it's called these days) was concerned. Whether it was legal to sell these > 5mw products to "hobbyists" without a "variance" is not clear to me, the Food and Drug Administration seems to have the lead in laser classification and regulation in the U.S.

There is an active community of personal laser enthusiasts here:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=lasers&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=186

It is interesting that many of the arguments on whether a small laser can successfully target a moving airplane are similar to the ones in this PPRuNe thread.

From one of the messages on the forum above, here's information about targeting an aircraft with a green laser to simulate gunfire for a documentary:

http://www.lumalaser.com/redbaron.htm

[RiverCity]

New Jersey man charged in laser incident

NEWARK, New Jersey (AP) -- A man who initially claimed his daughter aimed a laser at a helicopter was charged after he told federal agents that he pointed the light beam at two aircraft, authorities said Tuesday.

David Banach of Parsippany faces charges of interfering with the operator of a mass transportation vehicle and making false statements to the FBI. He is scheduled to appear in U.S. District Court on Tuesday afternoon.

The aircraft were targeted by the lasers near Teterboro Airport.

On Wednesday night, a pilot preparing to land a chartered jet with 13 people aboard reported seeing three green laser beams about 11 miles from the airport.

On Friday, a helicopter carrying Port Authority detectives was hit by a beam as they surveyed the area in an attempt to pinpoint the origin of the original beams.

The two incidents were among a rash of recent reports of lasers allegedly aimed at aircraft, raising fears that the light beams could temporarily blind crew members and lead to accidents.

Last month the FBI and the Homeland Security Department sent a memo to law enforcement agencies saying there is evidence that terrorists have explored using lasers as weapons, though federal law enforcement officials have said there is no evidence of any terrorist plot in the current incidents.

According to court papers, under questioning Banach admitted lying and said he shined a laser beam at both the jet and the helicopter. He has not been charged in the helicopter incident.

His lawyer, Gina Mendola-Longarzo, did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment Tuesday.

The chartered jet was flying at about 3,000 feet when the pilot and co-pilot saw a green laser beam strike the windshield three times, according to court documents filed Tuesday. The flash blinded the two temporarily, but they were later able to land the plane safely.

After the helicopter crew also reported seeing laser beams, FBI agents canvassed Banach's neighborhood trying.

Banach told the agents it was his daughter who shined a beam at the helicopter, according to court papers. He denied the laser was in use when the jet had passed nearby. But later, Banach submitted to a lie detector test and eventually said he shined the laser beam at both aircraft, according to the court papers. The papers did not give any alleged motive.

[PaperTiger]

The papers did not give any alleged motive.Uhlman's Razor (http://home.pacifier.com/~ascott/they/quotesu.htm) applies I believe :8

[RiverCity]

I think you pretty much hit it.

[Self Loading Freight]

There's not much published science about lasers and retinal damage, especially with the class IIIa handheld devices popular with the nerds. However, a discussion about astronomy and lasers (green ones make great star pointers) elsewhere revealed this from the Mayo on PubMed:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11115266&dopt=Abstract

The abstract says:

"We report the absence of photic retinal injury after exposing the retina to light from class 3A laser pointers for durations of up to 15 minutes. Three patients with uveal melanomas were scheduled to have an enucleation. Each agreed to have his or her retina exposed to laser light from a class 3A laser pointer prior to enucleation. Continuous exposure was directed to the fovea for 1 minute, to the retina 5 degrees below fixation for 5 minutes, and to the retina 5 degrees above fixation for 15 minutes. Ophthalmoscopic evaluation of the cornea, lens, and retina and fluorescein angiographic studies of the retina were conducted before, 24 hours after, and 11 days after laser exposure in the first case; before and 86 hours after exposure in the second case; and before, 96 hours after, and 15 days after exposure in the third case. Other than transient afterimages that lasted only a few minutes, we were unable to document any functional, ophthalmoscopic, fluorescein angiographic, or histologic evidence of damage to any structures of the eyes. Transmission electron microscopic studies of retinal sites targeted by the laser pointers in the second and third cases revealed ultrastructural abnormalities in the outer retina and the pigment epithelium that were similar to abnormalities seen in the retina approximately 8 mm away from the targeted sites. The risk to the human eye from transient exposure to light from commercially available class 3A laser pointers having powers of 1, 2, and 5 mW seems negligible."

Which doesn't help with dazzling, after-images and other nasties, but nobody should lose sleep thinking some idiot with a laser pointer from Maplins is going to blind them for life.

[Airbubba]

>>David Banach of Parsippany faces charges of interfering with the operator of a mass transportation vehicle and making false statements to the FBI. <<

According to news reports, he got the laser here:

http://www.bigha.com/sky/index.php

It appears to be a totally street legal <5mw class 3a laser pointer...

[Iron City]

In the version of this story in this morning's Washington Post the charge was interfering with the operation of an aircraft.

Suspect a Citation on a charter would not qualify as a mass transit vehicle.

Interfering with an aircraft and how about attempted murder seem appropriate charges. Ought to be good for about 15 to 50 years.

[Airbubba]

>>Interfering with an aircraft and how about attempted murder seem appropriate charges. Ought to be good for about 15 to 50 years.<<

I predict he'll cop a plea, get off with a fine and probation. We'll see...

[Airbubba]

>>Suspect a Citation on a charter would not qualify as a mass transit vehicle.<<

Maybe it does qualify:
_________________________________

...The anti-terrorism provision of the Patriot Act was used to prosecute Richard Reid of Great Britain for hiding explosives in his shoe while on a flight from Paris to Miami in December 2001, but that count of the indictment against him was dismissed because a federal court ruled that an aircraft was not a "vehicle" under the scope of the Patriot Act.

The law subsequently was amended to define "vehicle" as any "means of transportation on land, water or through the air."

From:

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-8/110499786917220.xml

[kmi]

Spotted this comment on salon.com yesterday - been following the story via "ask the pilot". Some good points.

http://www.salon.com/tech/letters/2005/01/05/laser/


[Apologies if I'm repeating a previous post from another member!]

[LatviaCalling]

kmi,

I have a few bones to pick with Alex Small, the almost Ph.D. None of my comments reflect on you, because you only posted what Mr. Small said.

First of all, he says: "Terrorists would need a large laser with a portable power supply and cooling system. Such systems are available, but they are bulky and expensive."

My comment to that is that if it would be a concerted terrorist attack, they would have the money. No question about it.

Second, Mr. Small says, "...teporary blindness is certainly dangerous. However... blinding a pilot for a few second is not necessarily enough to bring down a plane."

What if you're on finals 1,000 or 500 feet from touchdown and you can't see a thing? I don't think Mr. Small has ever piloted an aircraft, large or small. I have.

Thirdly, he says, "Realistically, the weapons system would cost a hundred thousand dollars..."

I don't think that is out of the reach of potential terrorist funds.

Then he says that the system would have to be dismantled so as not to leave a trace. That's where the fertilizer and diesel come in to place. They've done their job and now let's blow it up to cover our tracks.

If they are foreign terrorists, they'll disappear in a day or two. If they are domestic terrorists, the FBI will probably put the pieces together and eventually arrest someone. In any case, I was rather commenting on the international types.

[wombat13]

Tosh.

About five years back the media went wild about people pointing lasers at aircraft, kids, cats et al in the UK. Everyone was at risk of going blind.

Soon as there was something more worthwhile to report, we heard nothing more about it. Must confess I have not come across any pilots, kids or cats that have been blinded by lasers.

[wombat13]

An assertive response to nonsense does not alter the fact it is nonsense. Give it thirty days and see where this story is then. Binned along with Jonny Wilkinson's near miss?

You really have to take with a pinch of salt what our American friends come out with.

Sorry to hear about the "spotting" incident you experienced at Manchester. Let's not confuse this with blinding pilots and interfering with the avionics.

As for giving road directions to ATC from 160. I salute you.

[ImageGear]

Sir, an over-reaction you may say, but last year, inbound to LHR and descending to intercept the localiser for 09L, we were scanned on the starboard side from a point NW of Bracknell.

Both of my eyes were momentarily blinded and irritable for a few seconds thereafter. Had this occurred on short finals the outcome could most definitely have been somewhat different.

I hope they catch the imbecile (s) and throw the key (s) away.

ImageGear

(Edited sans beer goggles)

[wombat13]

You sure it wasn't 09L?

[ImageGear]

You're right, mental abberation brought on by too much sherbet.

Imagegear

[Ignition Override]

Why are smaller, compact lasers even legal to import or buy in the US?:ouch:

Is it practical to regulate these objects, and if so, why is it so difficult to do so? :cool:

[cwatters]

It seems 20mW lasers are available...
http://www.megalaser.com/20.htm

or you can have yours "tuned up" ....

http://www.backdeckstudio.com/lasermods/

[Airbubba]

Folks, you can't make this stuff up...

_________________________________________________


Military Tests Lasers To Warn Off Aircraft

By Sara Kehaulani Goo
Washington Post Staff Writer

Friday, January 14, 2005; Page A06


A day after the Department of Transportation urged pilots to report hazardous laser beams aimed at aircraft, the U.S. military said it is testing a system to beam red and green lasers at aircraft in the Washington area as a warning when they enter restricted airspace.

The plan has prompted confusion among some area pilots who said they were unsure whether they would be able to tell the difference between a commercial laser used by someone playing at home and one operated by the North American Aerospace Defense Command. Transportation Secretary Norman Y. Mineta on Wednesday urged pilots to report laser sightings to the Federal Aviation Administration and local law enforcement. A commercially available laser beamed into a cockpit can distract a pilot and in rare cases cause permanent eye damage.

NORAD said yesterday that its lasers are less intense than a typical laser pointer and that they will not harm or distract pilots. "During the tests, citizens in the [Washington] area may occasionally see beams of red and green lights in the sky during the hours of darkness," NORAD said in a statement. "The lights are so designed that illumination levels are eye-safe and non-hazardous at all ranges."

NORAD spokesman Michael D. Kucharek said a document posted on the Federal Aviation Administration's Web site for the presidential inauguration mistakenly suggested that any unauthorized aircraft flying into the restricted areaknown as the Air Defense Identification Zone around the nation's capital would be signaled with a laser beam. He said the posting was premature because the FAA has not granted its approval.

NORAD would like to use its Visual Warning System soon for all aircraft deviating into restricted airspace because it is a safer way tosignal pilots than the current method of dropping flares near unauthorized planes. Until it gets approval, NORAD will test lasers only on military aircraft in the Washington area. The test period began Dec. 28 and ends next Thursday.

Commercial airliners and private aircraft pilots "won't experience our laser" for now, Kucharek said. "We're only using the Visual Warning System against pre-designated aircraft and pilots."

Unlike the thin, focused beams of lasers that have reportedly been pointed at 31 planes since the Christmas holiday, Kucharek said the military's beams are in a red, red, green sequence and appear as wide beams that pose no harm and won't distract pilots from flight duties. "We want to have another way of letting [pilots] know, 'Hey, you need to vacate the area,' " he said.

Even so, local pilot Scott Faught said NORAD's announcement about its limited testing left the impression his plane might be beamed. The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association, which represents many private pilots, said it didn't know enough about the program to comment. It advised pilots to continue to report all laser incidents.

"If they plan on hitting me with lasers, it still raises the issue: Are you trying to distract me? How in the world do we know the good ones from the bad ones?" Faught said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7708-2005Jan13.html

[KES-rayman]

I was removed from these forums for unknown reasons!
I have legit questions some may have been offended by..
I am a wealth of information for you about the hazzards of lasers
and the positive use of the same..
cockpits are getting flashed for sure that is obvious,,
A simple coat of 532nm blocking film or dichroic material CAN be added to the windscreen ..along with the MORE dangerous wavelengths 1064nm-808nm these you cannot see but can do
EXTREME damage to optical devices and retina damage...
simple tool too have is a pair of laser goggles even if you think you saw a green sparkle throw those pups on!
Retina damage is very rare anywhere,,laser show,military,lab..
It does happen though so just be safeguarded..

now mod. throw me off again!!


edited to add,

I am C.D.R.H. U.S F.D.A. F.A.A.
Varianced and Licensed for providing to the public Lasers upto 60 watts of laser energy!
U.S. ARMY 6yrs Mosquito mechanic,Gen(APU) Mechanic.

Also with some of the new coatings you can hear an audible "snap" thats when to duck and take covor!

If anybody has any concerns or questions please let`s hear them!
I have friends from the laser show industry to NASA brains.

[Airbubba]

>>I am C.D.R.H. U.S F.D.A. F.A.A.
Varianced and Licensed for providing to the public Lasers upto 60 watts of laser energy!
U.S. ARMY 6yrs Mosquito mechanic,Gen(APU) Mechanic.<<

Yet another "expert" graces the PPRuNe forum with his expertise...

[cwatters]

It's worth remembering that the laser may just be the targeting device for something else...

http://www.skomer.u-net.com/projects/missiles.htm

Starstreak
Shorts shoulder launched SAM.
Launches a trio of guided armour piercing darts at the target. Laser guided. Replaced Starburst. Entered service.
L = 4.6ft (1.4m) Ø = 5in (12.7cm) W = 35.3lb (16Kg) R = 3.8miles (7Km)

[KES-rayman]

Yes that is true,,
But they use a infrared type laser,which of course we can not see
un-aided.

[KES-rayman]

Laser detection units for aircraft.
http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=16244

[Ignition Override]

Kes: Somebody asked some questions which suggested that pilots need to make sure that they do not 'drink' before a duty period begins, maybe just for sake of comparison, instead of worrying about high-energy beams which can cause pilot incapacitation and/or blindness (loss of career etc).



:ugh:

[KES-rayman]

We are on topic!

[Ignition Override]

Kes: It's only because somebody mentioned that other topic which the media loves, like a vampire near a young virgin.

I'm looking forward to reading about personal lasers and especially whether there is anything that pilots can do about them, and whether there are any new regulations which seriously limit the sales to individuals. Why did people need these in the first place, if they are not in the business?
:confused:

[KES-rayman]

I would hope by now with all the media focusing on bozo`s putting spots on planes will stop the ignorant few..
Has anybody ever demonstrated a laser to you?
Home scientists will always be~ you can homebrew quit a powerfull unit with skills.

I.O. those posts were removed by the moderators..

[Ignition Override]

Hi Kes: Can't remember seeing any demos, except maybe at a concert years ago. Those things are fascinating and I would enjoy seeing them at another show of some type. Might even drive to a casino in world-famous Tunica! Took my son there to sit in front of Buzz Aldrin-what an outstanding speaker and gentleman.

Are the 'private' versions just bigger versions of what we used in "laser tag", which I played a few times when my son was younger? Whatever they are, that game is really a blast in a dark room with many obstacles to hide behind, with such a tiny red beam to activate your opponent's dectectors across a large space.

Pardon my sarcasm earlier (that's all it was), but maybe many of us at Pprune have only focused on the negative aspects of this industry (which most don't understand), and we pilots can't afford any serious injuries to eyes, ears, fingers, feet etc, on or off the job-we all know about passenger/crew safety being paramount. And our careers do not transfer to other jobs. Although such possibilities of permanent injury are rare, any random factors which can end a career is something which pilots jump on with both feet-maybe people overreact a bit. I enjoyed your info on previous pages and if all of this is somehow kept in context maybe we can all become better informed (open-minded) and learn some things.

[KES-rayman]

One word of caution,,,
If you are ever flashed by a laser DO NOT LOOK AT THE SOURCE or look for the source !
Look away quick,very quick!

goggles frequency range should be 532nm-1064nm blocking

[KES-rayman]

The laser used in those devices emit 630-685nm(Red) at aprox.
5 mw the same as a laser pen,,these can cause ZERO eye injurys..
Now from the info I have gathered pilots are getting flashed with
532nm (Green) lasers,,a 5mw green vs. 5mw Red,they have the same output power but the Green is centered right in the middle of our visual spectrum thats why we perceive it as brighter.
Now if your cockpit is flashed with a Green laser and you see an afterglow of Red in your vision take ALL precautions to avoid
that is more power than a simple 5mw green laser pen!