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candoo
28th Sep 2004, 11:59
Travelling through the US last week I had a flight LAS to EWR on Continental. Now I know paper tickets should be guarded with one's life etc but it had been a long night and I had left them on the back seat of a taxi on the way to the airport.

Major panic ensued as I was not sure of cab company name so approached Continental desk who, politely, informed me as it was a paper ticket they could not check me in even though all my flight details appeared on their screen as well as my onward flight back to the UK. It would have been no problem with an e-ticket, passport sufficient identity to carry me on. Continental wanted a thousand bucks just for the Newark leg!!!!!!

As it happens my hotel in Vegas managed to locate the taxi who very kindly met me at Continental drop-off 20 minutes later with my tickets and received a proportionately large tip!

What is the deal with paper tickets, why is there no flexibility when they are misplaced? what happens when they are genuinely stolen? I was very disappointed by the check-in staff who flatly refused to offer any assistance at all, and then gave me the SSSS for my trouble! I have since learned you can fill out an indemnity form which for a small fee would allow you to travel - is this correct?

Any comments appreciated.

CargoOne
28th Sep 2004, 12:34
Sounds strange. It happened to me several years ago when at last minute at check-in I realised that I lost my Finnair tickets and it was too late even to try to find them anywhere (hotel/taxi/etc). I've been forwarded to ticketing desk who just asked me for passport and travel details (dates/segments) to verify that most probably it is really me and reissued tickets. I've paid an equivalent of about 50 or 100 dollars as penalty and that's the end of the story.

DistantRumble
28th Sep 2004, 16:36
because they get a bonus for doing so.

PaperTiger
28th Sep 2004, 21:20
Paper tickets on US domestic have been on the way out for several years. In fact all US airlines now charge you for issuing them in the first place. Works well most of the time except when the computer system(s) crash, then everything grinds to a halt.

If you lose/misplace/forget a (paper) ticket or e-ticket ref. number, you will be required to purchase a replacement. The airline may or may not charge a walk-up fare and/or a 're-issue fee' at their discretion. Unless you have mega status in their FF program, you will end up paying handsomely. If the original ticket does not resurface within 6 months you may apply for a refund of the original fare.

Or something like that.

bluestars
29th Sep 2004, 09:59
Hi

I used to be a ticket agent for 3 and a half years so perhaps i can go someway to answering your question here...

first and foremost can i just say that in no way does someone refusing to reissue your lost ticket mean that they are being awkward or unhelpful... these are the rules laid down by the airline involved and is about revenue protection. There is so much fraud that goes on with the issuance of tickets and i dont think people realise exactly how rife this problem is.

If you are unfortunate to have had your ticket stolen or lost then of course tickets can be reissued... a fee is imposed which is normally equivalent of that to raise the documentation and also the manpower used to locate all the relevant information. If you take the time to study an airline ticket you will see that there is alot of information on it and is not just simply a piece of paper showing your name and where you are going to... it is an accountable document, has a serial number on which can be likened to a sterling note...

if you have used a travel agent who has used a special fare, then this is transmitted through the system to the airline.... all that will show to the airline is your name and a routing... this is in no way proof that you have paid for the ticket... unless of course an e ticket has been issued... here the airline can see everything... so you can see that if your paper ticket goes astray it is very difficult for the staff member in question to allow you to board really not knowing whether you have paid or not. a ticket is the only thing that will prove this, as an invoice is still not adequate. in these circumstances i would do everything possible to track down a copy of the ticket but very often due to time zones this wasnt always possible. i would then advise the customer that they had two options. they could either come back when i could locate their ticket details or alternatively pay for a new ticket to get them to their destination, i would continue to try and get the copy of the ticket and once we had retrieved this ticket we could then refund the ticket that been subsequently purchased.

as far as e tickets are concerned, this shows how technology has moved on as we can now see everything that we need to... i think it still has teething problems however but im sure it is a case of each airline manipulating it to a way which suits them. i do think though that it has somewhat disgruntled some of those fraudsters out there as it is much more difficult to cheat the system, you will occasionally have people insist on having paper tickets which kinda of begins to ring alarm bells.. although very often it is a tradition thing!!

i hope this assists in some way.... the world of ticketing and fares is complex in its own right... thank god i dont have to worry about it anymore :E

SLF3
29th Sep 2004, 12:26
Learnt the hard way - keep your tickets and your itinerary separate, make sure the itinerary shows the locator code. If you have the itinerary and the locator they will re-issue the ticket and charge not much. If not, you have to buy a new ticket.

Also learnt the hard way - some airports make you show your ticket (Manila, Mumbai) to get into the terminal building. This is hard with an e-ticket!

bluestars
29th Sep 2004, 13:03
This is why you will find that some destinations you cannot hold an eticket on... this is due to immigration constraints.. however you will find that on the eticket receipt it will still state that you may need to show it to immigration authorities, this also happens in Australia and probably numerous other destinations.

So whats the point of etickets you may ask if you still need to carry a piece of paper... well in all honestly it really is to streamline the airlines paperwork and not really to convenience the passengers although they love you to think this!! it means less staff are needed therefore more profits!!

at least that is the idea... in my opinion!! :)

Globaliser
29th Sep 2004, 15:57
bluestars: So whats the point of etickets you may ask if you still need to carry a piece of paper... The main differences, at least, are that (a) you don't have to show the paper nearly as often and (b) it's not a crisis, let alone a disaster, if you happen to lose it.

PAXboy
29th Sep 2004, 16:09
I agree that e-ticketing is only for the airlines! However, with self check-in (online or machine) and fast bag drop facilities, I am more than happy to print a single peice of A4 paper. Also, with the confirmation email on-line and a copy of the print file on my lap top, I can regenerate the paper fairly easily.

Hopefully, once we have got folks onto e-ticketing, we can then move onto smartcard ticketing. However, that is probably eight years away on the high density routes and another ten across the world. But, like e-tickets, it will happen.

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"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

candoo
29th Sep 2004, 16:28
Thanks for the responses.

Unfortunately as I work for a large multi-national we are asked (forced) to book through the company travel agents. This inevitably means more paper tickets as more revenue for them. Often fly to Dusseldorf with BA for a day or two at more than 250.00 return when an equivalent flight with LCC would be 50 or less into Dortmund (closer to HQ, Luton closer to home).

I would prefer all my flights to be booked with e-tickets but hands are tied.

To extend my opener I did contact our company's travel agent at the time of loss and they were as equally unhelpful as the carriers - not really what I expected from an agent who has a virtual monopoly with our company.

redfred
29th Sep 2004, 17:17
Paper tickets cost the airline something like USD7 per coupon so ETKT are much more convenient for the airline but also for the passenger aswell, you cant lose it being the main advantage, sure enough you are supposed to carry a copy of the itin with you but these can be reprinted at checkin desks or ticketing desks.
Sure if you lose your paper ticket then you will have to pay for it to be reissued, I could never understand why people complain about this as if you lost your bus ticket, concert ticket, train ticket it wont be replaced you'd have to buy a new one..... lucky you dont lose your LX ticket as it will cost you 80 for a new one!.
Also I think airlines are trying to promote it as BA for instance will charge you a fee to have a paper ticket on an ETKT route, plus then they have your email address to add to their data base for endless special offers

CargoOne
29th Sep 2004, 17:48
redfred

Bus ticket, concert ticket, train ticket etc cannot be replaced if you lost it for a very simple reason: it is not personalized and in most cases it is not stored into any kind of reservation/inventory system. So you can buy it, then make it "lost" and if you reissued then your friend/family/whoever can accompany you for free. But clearly it is not the case with airline tickets. If someone want to use stolen ticket he should have ID or passport with matching name and photo and pray that ticket is not cancelled yet.

Ranger One
1st Oct 2004, 01:36
PaperTiger:

Paper tickets on US domestic have been on the way out for several years. In fact all US airlines now charge you for issuing them in the first place.

Not entirely true; they still issue paper tickets at no charge for situations where e-tickets are not an option - for instance, an infant not occupying a seat.

If you lose/misplace/forget a (paper) ticket or e-ticket ref. number, you will be required to purchase a replacement.

Certainly not the case for e-ticket reference number. I frequently don't have a printed e-ticket, I just give my name and ID and they find me and check me in. I can't imagine any circumstance you would have to *purchase* a replacement e-ticket!

R1

bealine
1st Oct 2004, 08:18
There are different circumstances surrounding the loss of a paper ticket:

1. If ticket was issued by the airline being used, a replacement can be issued against a "Form of Indemnity" (in other words, you agree that if the original ticket is subsequently found, you will forward it to the airline and prevent its attempted fraudulent use or that you will make good the loss to the airline if the lost ticket does get used fraudulently). The airline has the right to charge an administration fee for issuing the F.O.I.

2. If ticket was purchased by another airline, or by a travel agent, the carrier cannot get hold of the money for the journey without producing the coupon (the word "ticket" is commonly misused - the ticket is the entire document, the coupon the individual "flimsy" for the sector being flown). Therefore, if you lose it, you might be, quite rightly, refused travel as the airline will be carrying you free of charge!

It is quite a common occurrence that the "coupon" is lost between check-in and the gates, yet very rare that we decide to offload a passenger as a result (but it does happen!). If you read the Boarding Pass small print, it does clearly state "Not Valid Without Flight Coupon", the only exception being the E-Ticket where the Boarding Pass is overprinted.

As far as the following is concerned:
quote:
If you lose/misplace/forget a (paper) ticket or e-ticket ref. number, you will be required to purchase a replacement.

reply:
Certainly not the case for e-ticket reference number. I frequently don't have a printed e-ticket, I just give my name and ID and they find me and check me in. I can't imagine any circumstance you would have to *purchase* a replacement e-ticket!

...........Assuming your booking is okay! I have had literally hundreds turn up with no paperwork where the booking was for an entirely different date or destination!

Ckin Gal
3rd Oct 2004, 09:02
a couple of weeks ago our ckin system crashed. we handle both e tkt airlines and paper airlines. To check in a boeing of 131 pax with e tkts we had to get a copy of the manifest from reservations
and then use that as a form of cross check.
With the tktd flt it was simply produce the tkts and check them in as you can use the tkt as a cross reference to the ckin sheet.
as you can imagine a very long morning for all concerned, yet just as we'd finished writing out the 3rd set of boarding cards the sets came back up.

About a year ago, half the flt was ckd in and the system crashed how do you know who you've got and who you haven't without calling the pax all back and double checking. You are unable to account for baggage as well.

any ideas?

PAXboy
3rd Oct 2004, 14:31
Any ideas? Have the airline pay for a fault tolerant system with 'mirror disks' and one that is not based on Microsoft operating systems? :p :}

--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

candoo
3rd Oct 2004, 15:48
This has become really interesting.

Have asked my company travel agent to only do e-ticket reservations in the future. They now cannot guarantee seats compared to paper tickets, on a business level I have to be where I have to be at a set time.

So ARE paper tickets worth the money they are printed on?

Scottie Dog
3rd Oct 2004, 16:51
What a load of rubbish. As a travel agent I can say that that there is absolutely no difference - from the Pre-Reserved Seat aspect - whether you have an e-ticket or a paper one. The only difference between the two documents is in the way that the 'ticketing line' is entered.

The only other comment that I would make is with regards to sameday return checkin on British Airways. If you have checked in for your return flight and then want to make a change, it is impossible for your travel agent to revalidate your ticket without having to telephone British Airways. To do that the agent will be charged the sum of 50p per minute whilst on the telephone - more than the miniscule commission that the airline pays. If you are likely to want to change your return flight time then I suggest that you do not checkin - then call your agent and they will have changed your reservation and revalidated the coupon within a couple of minutes, and wih no inconvenience to yourself.

On the subject of e-ticket versus paper, I would go for e-ticket every time. It amazing how many times I get calls from an airline checkin desk to say that they have apassenger with them who has lost their ticket, and who do not want to have to pay for a Form of Indemnity to be issued. Equally amazing is the number of times that the ticket suddenly appears after you tell the passenger that it is the airlines charge and must be paid!

kimono
6th Oct 2004, 20:59
Same thing happened to me at Nice Airport a few years ago, I had no CC on me and had to call a friend to use hers to buy a new ticket.

As Im sat waiting to board, the taxi driver showed up yay! Gave him a nice big tip and my friend's card was refunded.

I was semi delerious with flu at the time, that's my excuse. OMG the flight was hell with that! :(

PsychedelicGoat
26th Oct 2004, 13:32
So now I know how I caught that flu :p

And e tickets are great, I scribble the booking number on my palm and flash it to the check-in staff - very convenient for me (but i keep a print out of the e ticket on my person in case I need it - like if their servers crash etc)

Globaliser
1st Nov 2004, 18:54
Write PNR locator, flight numbers, dates and booking classes onto a yellow Post-It note, and stick it on the passport page opposite personal details - works a treat.

redfred
1st Nov 2004, 21:15
dont bother just say im going to xxxx and my names xxxx thats all we need to find you.....

Globaliser
1st Nov 2004, 22:58
redfred: dont bother just say im going to xxxx and my names xxxx thats all we need to find you.....When all goes well and all the systems are working properly.

When they aren't ... well, there's a reason why I started doing what I do!

Jordan D
2nd Nov 2004, 16:29
I flew with easyJet last week EDI-LTN-EDI and on both legs, I put on the counter my ID & paper ticket. On both legs, they didn't even pick up my paper copy, just looked at my ID, checked it was me and put my name into the system to come up for the booking ... it seems it varies from some airlines to others....

Jordan

PAXboy
2nd Nov 2004, 16:59
I have found that many prefer to key in your name as it is easier than the ref number. If the person's name is Eddington, say, ;) then it is still easier to type a longer name that you 'know' than a shorter number that you have to look at on the paper and check carefully.

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"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr

wirgin blew
7th Nov 2004, 11:57
FYI - I have been told that a paper (carbon) ticket costs around $25 AUD to make. So sooner or later all companies will go with the e-ticket and pass the savings onto the traveller, shareholder and CEO (and not in that particular order).

PAXboy
7th Nov 2004, 23:42
Indeed. The bank's rapidly discovered the savings to be made with 'hole-in-the-wall' ATMs and then on-line banking. One day, they may even pass some of the savings on to their customers. :*

All airlines will go ticketless and many routine small 'cash' payments will be via smart card and/or your mobile (cell) phone. Trimming even 1 cent from a transaction is worth it - if there are millions of transactions each year.

The technology already exists for you to download ticketing data and confirmation number to your own smart card (Chip or RFID based) and then Swipe this on arrival. At the mooment, you have to be a member of a FF scheme for this to work. The intention is that as many people as possible should have smart ID cards. The only drag on this is the cost of implementation and who will pay and, of course, public acceptance.

For example, when automated credit and charge card authorisation was introduced into the UK in 1983, the technology existed for this to print the Record of Charge (ROC) but the banks, card companies and retailers could not agree on who would pay. The banks stood to gain the most so, naturally, they wanted the retailer to pay. :ok:

Secondly, the technology existed in 1983 to make a fully automated payment. The buzz word was EFTPoS, Electronic Funds Transfer at the Point of Sale. This could have effected direct transfer within minutes from your account to the retailer. True, there was not enough capacity in the system for the whole of the UK, but all the technology was there.

The local ROC printing was implemented some ten years after the 'Swipe Telephones/Machines' were introduced and full EFTPOS with instant transfer of funds has still not be implemented in the UK. The banks make too much money for them to give us control of our own money. :hmm:

PAXboy steps down off soapbox.

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"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

skydriller
8th Nov 2004, 10:05
When I first started travelling with E tickets there were initially a few problems when I travelled to the US, regarding phoning up to change the flight details, but I have not had any problems for a couple of years now. I prefere E tickets cause you as pax cant lose them!!!

What does annoy me is that a few times in the last couple of months, when getting flights, I have been issued with a paper ticket and I have asked about an E- version. Then been told they cant issue one on that route, which I know isnt true because Ive flown it before with an Eticket, and then I get charged extra for the paper ticket too!!!! Whats going on there then? This is generally for a flight that day or the next bought at the airport of departure direct from the airline.....

Regards, SD..

slim_slag
8th Nov 2004, 10:18
dont bother just say im going to xxxx and my names xxxx thats all we need to find you.....

Except when flying the no-frills airline which expects you to know your PNR even though it is written on the piece of paper in front of them, next to your name which they have located using the passport you handed them. And then they bollock you!

And they think they are like Southwest, who will put you on the next available flight even if you aren't booked on it, just by entering your name.

Scottie Dog
8th Nov 2004, 10:40
Skydriller

I don't know the actual routes that you are talking about, but I suspect that it might be a result of that old adage the 'code-share'.

If for an example you are flying on a SK flight from the UK, but using a BD flight number then an eticket is not available and you will have to have either a paper ticket or a Ticket on Departure.

BD very often offer lower fares then SK on the same aircraft, so you have the choice of either a eticket at a slightly higher fare or at the lower fare and then pay an 'excess' for the paper ticket. I'm afraid it is a Catch 22 situation.

Only when all the airlines have introduced Interline e-tickets will the problem go away.

Hope this helps

foxile
10th Nov 2004, 10:54
Over the last couple of years I have flown with TAP nigh on seventy times, reserving through various web agencies but more often than not TAPs web site.

Latterly TAP are now adding a charge (after reservation) of 11 euros to issue an e-ticket.... uhh? Why? Is this a new additional charge (considering the current increase in fuel costs) or merely one being identified more clearly? Are all airlines doing this now? Mind you its not all bad as I would have to pay 17 for a paper ticket!:D

PAXboy
10th Nov 2004, 12:06
I have not heard that one before!! Sounds wiley to me. I suspect that it stems form the point of view that has long dragged down any selling organisation ... the desire to make the 'headline' price as low as possible and reckon that, by the time the customer has taken an interest, that they will not be put off by various small increases.

I prefer a final bill price at all times, rather than having to calculate it myself. Equally, when I see adverts saying, "Free bottle of Arsenic, with every edition of the Daily Mail", I grind my teeth as the correct usage is not 'free' but 'inclusive'. Enough of the soap box, I'll go and make a mug of tea to calm me down. :bored:

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"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

foxile
10th Nov 2004, 13:41
I agree with you on the headline price, leads me to think, if they are charging me extra to issue any form of ticket, then why can't I have the option of flying without one, at the advertised price? Heh heh....;)

PaperTiger
10th Nov 2004, 15:14
TAP's gouging is confirmed (http://www.tap.pt/eportal/v10/EN/jsp/horariosReservas/reservasOnline,2452.jsp) on their website. Simply outrageous IMO, I've never flown with TAP and I have no intention of doing so if this is how they do business. Boycott the s0ds.

Really, really :mad: :mad: :mad:

redfred
10th Nov 2004, 17:17
its shocking I can understand the charge for an ATB or a paper tkt when an etkt is available but to charge for both...but they are skint i suppose

ASCIL
27th Apr 2005, 19:58
With BA over here, most of the tickets are electronic and there for we rarely have to fill in those forms if Indemnity. Its only when your traveling on with airlines that do not operate an ET service, that you will be required to have those PT. I know they can cause some caos at times, but i much prefere to have something in my hands.

With the tktd flt it was simply produce the tkts and check them in as you can use the tkt as a cross reference to the ckin sheet.

I quite agree with you Ckin Gal, working as you do makes it easier to cope with the unexpected!! :D

:ok: