Are you still enjoying it?!!!

[Redline]

This is question for experienced crew, sorry wannabe chaps but your utopian view doesn't count. Am I alone in thinking the fun has gone out of the game. Going to work used to be such a crack with like minded people who loved the job. I just seem to be sorrounded by point scoring rottweilers that bang the drum but don't see the big wide world outside and who think their pitiful minutiae makes them big fish.

The crushing tedium that results from every decision or likely variable being dealt with by a sub paragraph in section 8 (and that the rotties can repeat verbatim) takes the bulk of the challenges out of what used to be a bloody good job.

And lets not get onto the relentless march downwards of our T 's and C's.

[Astronomy Dominie]

I've got out, myself, having been a management pilot with a big airline. Much happier now, can't believe how fatigued I was when flying, and I don't miss it one jot. You're spot on about Ts and Cs, but the rot goes deeper than that... It's certainly not a professional job any more.

[Redline]

A D ... I'm not out yet but I can't help feeling I'm not far away from that decision. Shame.

[Andrew G20]

Problem with this job is that everyone thinks they're going to be lady penelopes chauffeur.
If you don't enjoy it then get out because no doubt there are many wannabees who would like to be in your shoes.
If you've spent a fortune to get into the RHS and you want to get out then fair play, but there seems to be more negative than positive floating around and I would propose that flying for a reputable airline is not at all a bad job if that's what you want. Stop the sodding moaning and head into IT.

[West Coast]

I've missed far too many family firsts, crawling, walking, saying daddy for the first time. Rarely do I get to go to my daughters ice skating practice, yada, yada, yada.

There are individual moments that I still like, greased landings, departures near empty, etc.

All things considered, probably wouldn't persue airline flying again. Its been good as far as providing for the family, but its at a high price.

[ramsrc]

Stop the sodding moaning and head into IT.
What makes you think it's any better here?!?

Believe me, these days software ain't a whole lot better :ugh:

[Bigpants]

Airline flying is now a subtle blend of fatigue, frustration, boredom broken up by periods of high stress.

My own employer now has over 2,400 Flight Crew Orders of course I can use my initiative providing I am acting in the best interests of.....

Trouble is they are more likely to suspend you and threaten the sack than pat you on the head and say well done. So most do not stick their necks out.

BP

[Ivan Taclue]

Hi. I also quit. Used to hold various managerial roles in small/medium airlines. Some failed so I ended up in the dole-queue. At least I had made some money so that I could afford to look around. In the meantime one of my pensions started to pay.

Like the original poster said, it used t be fun. Nice crews, good fun nightstops, great aircraft. But recently I had a Chief Pilot (also CRM instructor!!!) who rings up FOs to find out which old LHS bods are not following Part 8 to the letter, etc.

So I got out and took a groundbased job, whilst saying NO to job offers in the pits of Europe, Middle East and Far East.

Now I can sleep in my own bed every night, have weekends off, see my family and grandkids. I earn less, but I am HAPPY.......

[Gillespie]

As an airline pilot to be it is very disheartening to here moral as low as this.

I stopped training after I realised that it wasn't going to be an easy haul, but I kept on thinking what if? So I had to finish my training to fulfil my ambition.

I've heard many bad things about the deteriorating terms and conditions, but could someone enlighten me with some examples so I know what I'm getting myself into.

[Tandemrotor]

The best paid jobs in aviation are either dangerous, or boring.

If you can do without the money, there are still interesting jobs to be done. Most use them as stepping stones to, you guessed it, the airlines!

So, if you're already doing an interesting job, with a view to joining an airline, make sure you enjoy every last moment, because once you move on, those memories may have to last you a lifetime!

And if you're already flying for an airline, just accept you are doing it for the money, and find your fun elsewhere!

The rot was already well under way, however, now the over-hyped threat of 'terrorism' gives the fun police licence to stamp out enjoyment wherever they find it!

(Richard Reid - The shoe bomber carried explosives in his shoes, so now I have to take my shoes off to pass through security! Good job he didn't secrete the stuff in his underpants!)

Sad, but mostly true!

[Dani]

I agree that times have changed. But some of you bored guys may confuse the change in your personal attitude with the chance of the industry itself!
I remember when I started airline business 15 years ago, the old lads said "well, well, it used to be much much better in the old days". And they may have been (although they still made very good money and didn't work a lot). But most of all one gets tired about the job, and that's what's it making different!

Dani

[missioncontrol]

You only live once,

why waste it , inherit the Earth, yet lose your own soul by selling it to an Airline?

[Fly_Right]

How very sad...I have been flying since 1968 (June 10th to be exact) and I still love it!
Been in the Military and then several different airlines. Sure I've been made redundant a few times but "you stand yourself up, dust yourself off, and start all over again!"
Even Airline flying can be reqarding if you go out there and do the best you can every single day. That's what being a "Professional" pilot is all about.
I am on standby at the moment and hoping the phone rings!

[Finbarr]

This is an absolutely brilliant thread! Says it all. I too have chucked in the towel and am much happier for it. They've taken all the fun out of it and I feel very sorry for the young people starting out in aviation today. Just glad I was there for the good times.

[Max Angle]

I am on standby at the moment and hoping the phone rings! Yup, I remember that feeling, didn't last long. Honestly struggle to find anything good about it now, probably has a lot to do with wrong base (LHR) and wrong company but it just seems to be a real grind now. Looking to move company and base but can't do anything else so will have to stay in flying if I want to maintain my income. If I found the right job I think I could get to enjoy it again but at the moment I can't say I do.

[Maximum]

Have to agree.

In my opinion it's the work/life balance that's all wrong. Days are ridiculously long in many cases, airspace critically overcrowded, a rulebook thicker than the yellow pages, and the old 'six on, two off and be thankful' management culture leaves no time for recovery, let alone R & R before it begins all over again.

In shorthaul we're shiftworkers with crazily changing shift patterns perfect for inducing fatigue, yet we actually work longer weeks with fewer pro rata days off than a stable shift worker.......work that one out. Six on, two off just can't be right for a shift worker expected to control sixty tonnes of jet aeroplane in all weathers at all times of the day and night, make all the right decisions and get kicked in the ass or worse when a small deviation from the ops manual occurs.........

Another point often overlooked is that modern aircraft have taken much of the fun out of it as well, and reduced the actual involvement of tuning and tracking nav aids etc in the cruise, getting your descent exactly right etc etc blah blah.....

And try keeping a marriage going with endless nightstops or earlies and lates. The sheer daily grind is very much at odds with the perception of those who don't do it.

Apart from all that it's bl**dy marvellous.

:rolleyes: :yuk:

[1DC]

Do you really think it is any different today in any job that requires a responsible professional to do it? Times have changed in almost all professions and everyone has more work and more pressure. Competition in business means decisions are made that adversely affect the workforce today that wouldn't even have been considered 20 years ago. We have to live with this and conform, the older people who remember the good old days sometimes find it harder. I'm one of the older brigade who when experiencing my good old days listened to senior people telling me that their good old days were better than mine. I'm sure the young professionals of today who are enjoying the job know what I mean.
If you are thinking of leaving your present job because the shine has gone off it just remember it may be a temporary feeling until you re adjust and if you are serious about moving if you want to earn the same salary don't expect conditions to be much different in the other world.

[Snigs]

Hear hear 1DC. :rolleyes:

I've heard enough whinging on these fora to last me a lifetime. Sorry, but this really pisses me off. :*

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

Snigs, come back to this discussion in about 5 years...

[Max Angle]

Well Snigs, I'm sorry that it hacks you off but the question was asked and is being answered in a candid fashion by people. The truth is the job is not what it was only 10 years ago and many people are unhappy and concerned at how the industry, and our lives are changing. As 1DC correctly points out that the same things are happening in many other jobs, it doesn't mean I have to like it when it happens to mine.

[saddest aviator]

I think I have just about had my fill of the individuals who say put up with the status qo because that is the way of the world! Get a life guys. We have watched our t'S & C's get steadily eroded because we have allowed it Pilots squabble with Pilots quoting seniority lists etc while at the same time Managements enjoy the peace of not being bothered. Unions cannot convince us to take affirmative action it historically only takes the threat. Still we squabble amongst ourselves. God you all deserve what you have got and I'm one of you. WHEN ARE WE ALL GOING TO STAND UP AND STOP TAKING THIS CRAP? Ryanair and MOL are only the start dont think for one moment that the bullying will stop.It wont. A strike threat or even a work to our many rules would certainly concentrate a few minds


Given half the chance I'd be out of here. But we all know what its like to be held hostage to school fees and mortgages etc.

[niknak]

I am an ATCO, so perhaps I am intruding upon the hallowed turf of "the other side", but in 25 years of ATC I've loved every moment of it.

I can't think of any other job that pays as much for not taking the work home with you, and although we work very hard when we are on console, relatively we work a lot less hours than those who would do so to earn an equivilant sum outside the industry.

Naturally, if my ship came in, I would retire tommorrow, but my ship hasnt left port yet.:p

The reason I have posted is that my son is firmly committed to flying as a career, he's a bright lad, and if he continues in his present vein, could easily qualify to become and atco, scientist, politician or pilot, however, he wants to take it that step further and fly.
I know, as does he, what obstacles lie ahead of him in the process of qualification and knowing that that's only the start of things, getting a step on the ladder to becoming a commercial pilot is a monumental challenge.
After that, he knows he may have to spend God knows how many hours flying at any hour or any day to achieve his goal - whatever that may be when he is old enough.

He's only 15, but there are 100s of young men and women who are in the same boat who would kill to get the chance that most of you have worked so hard for.
20 years ago, it was a BA scholarship, now, unless you're one of the exceptional few, it's a chance to improve yourself by flying with a Lo Co or freight airline.

Thats the way the industry goes, all I would ask is that you don't put the pilots of tomorrow off by the bad experiences of today.

[Herod]

O.K., this job kills you. The disruption to the daily life, lack of sleep, etc. shortens lifespan. The disruption to family life, missing kid's birthdays, school sports. Marriage break ups because you're never home. Forced changes of base meaning wife has to change jobs, kids have to change school and so on. Eating and drinking all the wrong things, be it too much coffee and "bacon and beans" on the flight deck or booze and McDonalds on a night stop. Your hearing suffers because of the constant noise (pardon, too many years alongside a Dart). Your eyes suffer from too much glare and UV. Your risk of cancer increases because of the exposure to radiation. A lot of the fun has gone; it didn't become the safest means of transportation by allowing us to continue enjoying ourselves like we did.

Yes, opting out sometimes seems like a good idea, but;

if I'd been in any other job, I would have died of boredom years ago and:

after 39 years, it's still the best way in the world to earn a living.

[Trader]

Lets see...you can get a 9-5 job working in a cubical for a boss who is as tyranical as any in aviation, fight traffic 3 hours each day etc etc etc etc.

I think this is a case of the grass is greener..........

Did the 9-5 and was lucky enough to make very good money. For me it is still not worth it.

But if yuo don't enjoy the flying either fight to make it better or find something you think is better--it may work out.

[BOPralph]

I'm still smiling after all these years. Sh*t I must be a sad b'stard.

I can still remember my first solo, and that first flight on each new type. I have many pearls of wisdom gained from those rear and special top Captains that are now gurus of the industry. I also have some top shelf learning experiences picked up from dickheads that have found their way in to aviation. I've seen the light being switched on in a young mind struggling in this strange world we live in. I've also seen the mellowing and maturing of the "God's gift to aviation" brand new jet apprentice.

Over the years I have tried to stay true to myself and my values. I've had respect for the mob I've worked for, and had their respect. Without that, my feet would do the talking.

I've had the odd run-in with management and thrown my toys out of the cot - only to have management help me pick my toys back up and put them where they belong. I have had management theaten voilence and mayhem - only to end up offering apologies and surrender or compromise.

My current company has a management with some positives and a desire to do better - but enough negatives for the whingers to have a go. The training staff do a stella job - but the odd stuff up gives the pirahnas something to feed off. The flying staff are generally fairly balance individuals - but the infrequent and inevitable personality clash will see the anally retentive spew forth on the worlds evils.

All-in-all, a balanced company. Varies depending on whether your glass is half full or half empty.

The job I'm in now doesn't give me the same time at home as I had before (but that job was special). Even so, my wife sometimes phones the company to find out when I have to go back to work so I'm not under her feet. I've missed too many birthdays and 'firsts', but also been able to make up for it with some specials of my own.

Is the money enough? Define 'enough'. And my non-tangible rewards are worth a bit to me. My family also profits from some of the non-tangibles. We're happy.

Is the job worth it? It can get at you at times, and somedays my eyes don't want to open when the alarm goes off. But I enjoy the flying, the satisfaction of a job well done, the self examination that comes with the odd f**k-up, the adventure of staying right up with it. I can accept a lot of the bullsh*t that goes with the job, but challenge the unacceptable.

Is the job worth it? To me - YES.

[alf5071h]

The question and debate in this thread has highlighted some of the problems in our developing industry. The modern social structure demands quick advancement in our careers, which now sees big-jet Captains at age 25. This brings problems of low experience, lower cross-cockpit age gap, and other ‘CRM’ type pressures.

However, the issue of concern is what happens to those individuals who ‘top-out’ - been there, seen it, etc, or the disillusioned. Some may have to stay in the job for financial reasons, or others focus on sideline activities; in either case this could lead to deteriorating professional standards.

On the other hand, the ‘I do it because I enjoy it’ brand press on propping up an industry under stress; yet even these people at some time will come to the point when enough is enough, hopefully at retirement date.
A problem with this group, as with those who top-out, is that some may not recognise the deterioration in their professional approach.

I have seen individuals continue far too long in aviation for a variety of reasons and I vowed to finish before I reached that point, providing I could identify it. I did, 5 years before retirement, it was primarily due to having achieved all that I wanted to, and a failing body and mind to enable greater achievements.

Professionalism involves self-assessment and judgment; these are very important attributes, even more so in today’s industry.

[Basil]

Loved it!
Great mix of technocracy, interpersonal relationship with FC, CC, station staff and passengers; opportunities to study lands, people, religion and culture at first hand. Not forgetting, of course opportunities to sample their scuba diving, walking, exploring and, what we really joined for: their booze and night life :D

Bro-in-law crystalised part of it when he said flying the TriStar sim was the best Atari game he'd ever played!
You're going to get the rough with the smooth in any job any time. Don't believe all the "It used to be better." crap.
We'll all have ups and downs. You're going to have the occasional skipper who's a bit of a pain and then, when you get a command you'll find that, surprise, surprise, not all the c**** are in the LHS.
Kipling knew about RAF training and sims and route checks and medicals:
"If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster,
And treat those two imposters just the same." etc.

Of course there are family disadvantages. I was working away from home whilst some of my kids were young - so were a lot of guys when I was born in 1942 :(
Fortunately my wife could cope - but still maintains I was probably just too mean to divorce her :D hmm, wonder if she really means it??
That's the downside and shouldn't be dismissed but, personally, despite the effort, disappointments, embarrasments :O and all I count myself lucky to have had such an absorbing and fun life.

Despite the above, I think I'd have found my other possibilities, mechanical engineering or electronics, amusing but now I'll never know.

[daidalos]

I confess!
I like this job!
So please, any pilot who despise his/her work, do not continue to read this post!
I'm sure you won't like it!
In my mid-fifty's and after a set back of 6 months I started flying again in another company, although I was "convinced" by my friends that I was better off home.
Six months I felt the easy does it life of the retired and "happy", as I was told again and again, ex-pilot and at the end a REAL friend told me about the opening and ... here I am AGAIN flying happily and writing to you from my hotel room in Singapore, just arrived from Sydney and having breakfast - sirloin stake - and planning to sleep the rest of the day, since tonight I'm flying back home :-)
This life started in the early seventies and still I love the odd hours and missing all the "important" dates and days "normal" people have for fun!
But then again, I have stayed home the days "normal" people HAVE to work, and I have enjoyed things that "normal" people cannot imagine :-)
Bottom line - I could write a very long post - yeap! I enjoy my life, and more importantly I found a companion - my dear wife - that enjoys this kind of life, following me in some trips, or staying back and waiting for me. So yes I enjoy my life as long as it lasts :)

[Fly3]

Having been in the business for over 30 years and flown in the military and for 6 different airlines in various parts of the world I can honestly say that I still love to fly. Unfortunately I cannot say that I enjoy the job. The erosion of T&C's, the attitude of many managements towards their staff, the hassle of operating in the present security environment (especially in and out of the USA) all conspire to make the quality of life pretty poor. If I could afford it I would retire today and get my fix at the local flying club at the weekends.

[Shiny side down]

I only recently started flying commercially, after a long time 'getting there'.
The flying is generally great. The guys I fly with have become friends. And I am generally happy.

There are days when things really p**s me off, but there are more good days than bad, and thats important.

I changed career. The previous career had me working upto 3 times the monthly hours. Trips away were so budget constrained that the hotels were really awful and virtually no allowances. I had been made redundant 3 times. on average, once every 5 years. Companies going broke through bad management. And slowly having your freedom removed by new technology or working practices.
I can only conclude that aviation is like most other industries. (at least in the UK). I do admit, I did expect aviation to be better. But I won't be going back to my old job.
If you are here to fly and enjoy it, keep going.
If you find you are having more bad days than good, for your own sanity, do what you can to find something else.

[Snigs]

Max Angle

As 1DC correctly points out that the same things are happening in many other jobs

Had I had the patience to say it, this is what I was trying to highlight! I'm not disputing nor questioning what people are describing here, it's a useful insight, but what hacks me off is that it appears that the whingers believe that it is worse in the avaition business than in any other. Well, I'm just saying it isn't!

So shoot me for having an opinion! :ouch:

[Maximum]

Snigs, perhaps if you'd stop using the term whingers to describe those expressing a different viewpoint to your own then you might get a better reaction.

Aside from that, it's interesting to note how this subject always divides pilots - a fact which has always played into managements' hands over the years. That and the constant stream of new joiners who'll gladly sell their souls to the first (never mind the highest) bidder.

Just because someone expresses disatisfaction with their working conditions doesn't mean that they're somehow less of an aviator than those who just keep saying 'yes' no matter what's demanded of them.

It also makes me chuckle when I hear the comparisons with other jobs used to prove how lucky we all are. It's always so black and white - the monty python 'I used ti lick 'road clean w' tongue' sketch revisited. 'I used to lie in a ditch in the pouring rain 24 hours a day and let me tell you flying's far better than that'. Give me a break. The world of work is not just a choice between 9 to 5 in a boring office or flying is it?

And if flying the line is so great, as management will have you believe, how come all the fleet managers etc put up with the extra hassle (as they would describe it) of the office environment? Because they got sick of flying the line that's why - and were generally devious enough to see they could set themselves up with a much more pleasant little lifestyle. And then they could chose when to go flying - but not too much old boy thank-you very much. (While continuing to tell the poor old line pilots not to whinge - lack of moral fibre and all that eh what).

Flying a jet aeroplane is great - but there's obviously a price to pay. I accept that. It's a job after all. People have to make money. Fair enough. But the scales have tipped right over. The conditions demanded by a lot of companies these days means the price to fly that jet has become unrealistic. You are expected to sell your health and personal life down the river.

I fail to see how stating what appears to be a bl**dy obvious fact makes me a whinger. And just because other industries are suffering in a similar way doesn't make it right to have our own t's and c's eroded even further.

[Snigs]

Maximum, point taken, whingers is an evocative word. My initial comment was made after a long stressful day in an industry whose status is being constantly eroded. ;)

Ironically I’ve just finished a conversation with a colleague. I’m currently involved in the stress and design of the A380 and 7E7 hydraulic and landing gear systems for Smiths Aerospace, formally part of the Dowty Group. We’re going through an office shuffle at the moment and a colleague of mine found a long lost photo of the offices he used to work in. A nice country house. Anyway, to cut a long story short, and I kid you not, the conversation ended with the comment “oh well, things are not what they used to be, old Sir George [Dowty] really knew how to look after his workforce” I suspect that he considered the mirth this caused a little OTT as I chuckled to myself all the way back to my desk!!
:p

[Maximum]

Perhaps nothing really changes after all Snigs! ;)

[Redline]

It's been an interesting set of responses to my original post. Reflecting on all your posts each one has a bit of what I feel.

I got into flying having wanted to fly since a small boy, I still marvel at the beasts, just stand under the final approach at LHR, it's breathtaking.

There are days when I'm flying with another passionate aviator and we laugh and take the piss, still getting the job down in a downright professional manner, and enjoy a marvellous job that on its day is unrivalled.

Then I'll come across some little spineless rottweiler that's can quote 8.12.3.4a and thinks he's a clever little f**k. I despair.

And I'll get a bit down because I don't really fly aeroplanes anymore I manage them.

I suppose it's just changing and I think it's a little bit of a tragedy that my youngest son won't be able to enjoy what I have.

[GearDown&Locked]

The romantic idea of being an airline captain, a kind of double-“O”-seven in fancy uniform surrounded by several drop-dead-gorgeous flight attendants, on exotic places, is believed to be far from being true, if ever has been so, and sincerely that’s not what attracts me, and a lot others, to this profession.
In my case I’ve been working since the age of 15 and I’ve had all sorts of jobs, from welder apprentice in heavy industry, industrial electrician, electronics engineer to current IT technical consultant, so airline transport pilot would be my logical next step, just because I find it one of the biggest challenges one can have professionally - coupled with the inherent and pretty obvious pleasure of flying.
I understand the reasons from a lot of the people here, who find themselves frustrated with their working conditions being eroded by the hour, and in my opinion they should fight hard for their jobs and conditions. But unless you guys team up and move to the same side, and I mean ALL of you, companies will try to get the cheaper way out of you. Think of these management persons as a pack of wolves, if you stick together they will not dare to attack, on the other hand, once isolated you’ll be eaten alive, one by one. This is valid for any profession, but pilots (like Gods) tend to be the most individual and selfish persons- “Unions are for miners, firemen and such”; just look what they accomplish by sticking together.
But this is the “political” part of the job, the one that it’s always bad in every way you might look at it. The practical part is where the joy resides. The operation of a 60 ton machine 3 times faster than the fastest Ferrari, full of pax, boxed sheep (or cats), mail and parcels, or whatever you put inside, and get all this to fly(!!) is far more interesting and mind challenging than the “thrill” of keeping a big enterprise network running smoothly.
I’m on my late 30’s, and I’ve been told that I am too old for even trying this line of work, so I won’t be going after your job, but thanks to PPRuNe I would know exactly what to expect from your profession, and probably wouldn’t be so disappointed as many of you are, because my expectations would be different, and I would have a great advantage: I’m not new to the bad management actions, the bellow-the-belt treatment, it has been common practice everywhere since immemorial times; you’re just not used to it, as it is new to the airline industry. And after all, we all are being “held hostage” to our deserved life style. So, fight for your rights, and have a great time flying those machines. Now, I’ll get my coat, and turn to the network traffic monitor. Wow.
Thanks for reading all this far.

GD&L

[pontius's pa]

My dad wanted me to be a doctor.

At the age of nine I thought it a splendid idea cos I could ask women to take their clothes off, (pretty outrageous behaviour in the 1950's).

Then I read Biggles, which was a terrible mistake career wise

The end result was much the same;

but I would have had more success as a doctor

[ZQA297/30]

I suppose I am a typical airplane fanatic.
My father was an instructor at Cranwell in WW2, and a pathfinder in Mosquitoes. As a kid after the war and as my father progressed up the ranks in an airline, we built and flew model aircraft together.

I daydreamed my way through school, designing and building model aircraft at the back of the classroom when I should have been studying. I just didn't see the need for school- all I ever wanted was to be a pilot. I soloed at 16, had my PPL at 17 , CPL at 19, and got a corporate job as co-pilot on an oil company G-159 Gulfstream 1 at 20.

I therefore consider myself qualified as a first class aviation nut.
I have flown in corporate, small commuter, medium commuter, and small international airline environments. I had 8 years of management and 8 years as a trainer, and even 6 years as a union man. All aspects have been enjoyable for the most part, but interspersed with some serious boredom, fear, frustration, and even despair at times.

I have encountered many superb people, and some supremely stupid, arrogant, and mean spirited ones too.

I have flown everything from small twins to large prop jobs(piston and turbine) and several jet types up to wide bodies.
(Loved them all, but the best were both Lockheed, L-188 Electra, and L-1011 Tri Star).

When I started flying, the ops manual was all in a 1 inch binder. I have just retired, and when I left there were 7 manuals none less than 3 inches thick and one or two much more. That alone says a lot.

The enjoyment level was probably at a maximum about 20 years ago when the reliability of the turbine took much of the worry out of operations. Since then there has been a creeping erosion of the purely flying component, and a "flight management" mode began to take over. Job satisfaction became managing a smooth and fuel efficient flight to destination.
Nevertheless, on a nice day at less busy airports it was still fun to punch out the computers and hand fly.

The real decline in working conditions started soon after de-regulation, when hungry start-ups jumped in and their crew were willing to work longer for less. Since then the downward pressure by the bean counters has been relentless as they play one off against the other. "Productivity" is an ever moving goalpost.
9/11 was the golden opportunity by the beanies to force down labour costs, and here we are.

The other aspect is that somehow the camaraderie has fallen off. It used to be automatic that after a long hard flight to some far-off place, the whole crew met for drinks and a meal, but that has become increasingly rare. Many can no longer afford it, but something has changed in how we all relate now.

Would I do it again? Possibly, but probably not in the airlines, and with some form of sideline for income insurance and to afford the little luxuries.

Despite my attempts to discourage him, my son is about to set off into pilot training, as to him it is the most exciting option. Although I feel that it may not be financially sensible, I understand. There are few things more alluring than the flowing lines of those aluminium seductresses.


in response to the PM. ZQA297/30 is(was?) "prune" intersection.
Nassau VOR(ZQA) 297 radial/30 dme.

[Yarpy]

all I would ask is that you don't put the pilots of tomorrow off by the bad experiences of today.

niknak:

I wish I had known some airline pilots before I joined the profession. A frank briefing on the issues would have left me better informed.

As it is I am tied into something that is increasingly untenable in terms of working practices and commercial pressure.

You need to be fully informed to make career choices and Pprune is a godsend for this.

[1DC]

NIK NAK
If your son follows in your footsteps, he will surely enter the business with the same enthusiasm that you had when you joined and will see it as it is at his time of joining and judge it accordingly. After a few years when you are trying to tell him about the good old days he will probably be wondering how you could operate efficiently compared to his day!!!
I reckon this thread shows more people enjoying the job than not and I'm sure that almost all new entrants will too..

[cactusbusdrvr]

I agree with Nik Nak. My dad is a retired airline pilot and all I ever wanted to do was to fly. I've been doing this for 25 years and have just over 13 to go unless they change the retirement age and I can extend. Some days are a lot longer than others but I have put in my time in the cubicals (IT back when I got out of college) and there is nothing better than being in an office that moves up and down and across the continent. I bitch about my schedules and the contract like everyone else and I agree that my job is not as cushy as my dad had it but this still beats working for a living.

[Wrong Sisters]

At the age of 12 on my only holiday as a kid to LHR I decided then that I wanted to fly. Some how I managed to fool the RAF recruiters and they let me in. To my sheer disbelief I than managed to fool all my instructers and two Chief Instructors on chop rides and some three star popped a set of RAF wings on my chest at the age of 19.

I had a wonderful military career, though as cut backs after cut backs set in, I came close to saying that dreaded phrase of the knackered old sh**'s "It's not like it used to be". Then I was the subject of an accident (not of my own making I hasten to add) and I was permanently grounded.

I started to move into computing and web design and initially I didn't miss flying. Then I discovered that I shouldn't really have been permanently grounded and I managed to get a restricted class 1. Two years ago I got back into professional flying and I realised what I had been missing. Not the nice shiney high tech aircraft we now fly but I missed my fellow pilots - the banter, the whingeing, the desire to get things right etc.

The honeymoon lasted for 6-9 months and after taking off my rose filtered glasses I saw a management that couldn't give a toss and ignored FTL's so I resigned. I am now very fortunate to be flying for a small expanding airline where it is a pleasure to go to work. Yes we are away from home a lot but that goes with the job and if the marriage can't cope with that then it is not the right job to be in. Our management aren't perfect but then they have a business to run - it's up to us through the strength of collective membership to ensure our T & C's don't get erroded to unacceptable levels.

At the end of the day there are far harder ways of earning a living and if its not fun any more either give it up or build/buy/hire a little piston and remind yourselves why we entered this wonderful profession in the first place. Great thread keep it going.

[salzkorn]

I've read all your messages and I'm rather surprised at the low spirits amongst pilots, compared to the quite high spirits amongst flight attendants (there is a topic quite like this one in the cabin crew section of this forum).

How come there seems to be more pilots bored of their job than flight attendants ?

Now, so that I can improve my vocabulary (and my understanding of all the messages above) : what does "T's and C's" mean ? It's mentioned several times...

thanks

[hoofhearted]

'T'erms and 'C'onditions.

Basically the contract for the job.:ok:

[A and C]

When ever I hear pilots going on like this and I start to have tiny doubts that I have the best job in the world I just remind myself about the 7 day shift spending 7 hours a day in a 707 fuel tank with a rivet gun.

There are some people above who would not be happy locked in the Northgate brewery with the female cast of baywatch.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I arrived into Gatwick earlier tonight on a Willo 3C and commenced descent overhead the Brest peninsula. Laid out before me was my stunning-looking Airbus cockpit and as I looked up I saw 100 miles plus ahead of me - the Isle of Wight, Portsmouth, Southampton, Bournemouth and all of London laid out glowing in the dark. It was fantastic and even though I have seen the same sight on countless occasions I remarked to the FO that I do not think I will ever grow tired of it. Time will tell, butright now I gladly choose to enjoy those little moments that make all the other stuff so bearable. Who on earth will pay me the money I earn to have such a great time?

[Flying Guy]

Yes, there is plenty of boredom and dealing with dumb management and all the other negative items described here. Never the less, I side with the few aviators in this thread who have described so eloquently the joy that is still there for many of us.

I have little sympathy for the whiners and complainers in this industry. I suppose it all has to do with how we value our job. For me it is not just about money. It is about the romance of the travel, the personal accomplishment, the fellowship, and flying those great big airplanes!

Really, really cool - and I am 61 years old. Had to do a "real" job for a while last year and boy, am I glad to be back in the cockpit!

[Astronomy Dominie]

Might I offer the thought that the 'love it despite everything - it's just soooo wonderful' lobby might be, at least in part, responsible for the continued acceptance of reduced earnings, increased time on duty, decreased standards, fewer opportunities to genuinely execute the task of flying an aircraft, and the fact that pilots tend to be treated by their 'managers' as little more than disobedient children...?

...only a thought - I must try not to have so many of them...

[hart744]

Still love every moment of flying. Of course the challenges to come with it. I have seen Mount Everest so many times from FL 370. I have also flown over Manhattan late at night with the view of Statue of Liberty and the whole area. How about flying over Kowloon at 400 ft for a landing at Kai Tak!!

[E. MORSE]

Aviation is now, as much as any other branch, under influence of reducing costs.

Never needed to have a paycut though , and i feel pitty for those who must have right now , as in US Airways, according to my newspaper.

Went through bankruptcy of a former company , and had a job on the same day, actually the day before (!)

It seems very strange to me that companys are excisting, whith pilots who must pay for their uniform and more.

Or whose pilots are having their day's off, while on their stops abroad.

Those pilots must feel uncertain right now.

And we don't like that , that's what we are there for :
to stop and repair uncertain phases while on duty.

That's why we can't stand most of our colleagues in the office, because they will say, we'll see next week , we'll have to think about it or other apologies or whatever...

While we are in a real time environment, making real time thinking and seeing a direct result, can't wait a week sorry...

I can only speak for myself when i say :

I really love my job,
There is a lot of satisfaction in it,
in the flight itself, the problem solving, the good weather, the bad weather, the sunsets , the sunrises , the take off's , the arrivals , descents and approaches , the smooth landings , the concentration on the landings in very gusty conditions etcetera etcetera.

I have been flying since age 15 , now it's 22 years later.
And still think it's the best job there is. First solo on a glider, now my glider pilot license is not valid anymore.
But this is not a pitty because i know it will not be the same anymore when i'll join the glider society again.

It will be different and i know i will only miss my old friends when i drink a beer in the old clubhouse at night.

Things do change , not only in our branch.

But i am very glad , i made it all the way up.

Maybe one should wonder : "how would it feel if one didn't choose , and wasn't picked out, to become a pilot".

But than again i can only speak for myself.

Be proud,

Cheers.

P.s.
Being a penthouse photographer may be nice as well.

[chuks]

I have got a bit tired of the beancounter's version of 'The Death of a Thousand Cuts' or is it 'The Chinese Water Torture'? Both, even.

And then there is the odd freshly-minted training captain trying to impose his version of reality on reality, which can be a bit wearing....

But, put it down to laziness or a failure of the imagination, I haven't come up with anything else I would rather be doing right now. Taking pictures of penthouses? Where is the thrill in that?

[Arkroyal]

I loved it until 11/9 gave the companies the excuse to commence the 'whitevanmanisation' of our lives.

For that is all we are now, and to prove it, a new uniform that even the Tracy brothers would have looked daft in.

But, hey! At least I don't have to pay for it (yet).

I would assume that the happy guys are working for the old established carriers. Try a British LoCo forced to take on RYR and that disgusting MOL, and I fear your views would change.

Relentless grind is the job these days.

[Airbus Girl]

I went into the profession with eyes wide open, and enjoyed it to start with, a challenge, and new.
Of course, like any job, this wears off unless given a new challenge, like a change of type or a command, but in my company these things aren't available.
I still enjoying the flying.
What I don't enjoy is the total lack of a life outside of work. With the working patterns we now have it is extremely difficult to have much of a work/life balance. 6 on, 2 off. Get home around 8pm before a day off, start at 6.30am after the 2nd day off. Not much chance for doing my own thing.
If the company would offer part-time working I would be there like a shot.
I think this is the reason that morale is low - in the golden days, there were more opportunities out there - for having fun at work (nightstops, real flying, etc.) and also outside of work - because there was enough time off. Most shift workers seem to do 4 on-4 off. What heaven that would be!!!!
I think most pilots are happy with the money, but not happy with the time away from the job.
Also, people's expectations don't help. The public seem to think that this is still a "glamorous" job - with loads of time off, sitting on beaches for a week, and earning £100k plus.

Its like we are supposed to be thankful for having such a good job.

I think the only answer, if you are not happy, is to go part-time, or if that isn't available, take all the unpaid/ part-paid leave in a year that you can.

If I only worked 3/4 as much, or at least had decent rosters, then I would be happy with the job.

[RatherBeSailing]

"Still enjoy the flying" so many of you say as a reason for being upbeat with this job. I used to be that way too in the beginning, but the grind of flying short haul, 12 hours per day, often up at 03:30, or to bed at 03:30, day in and day out, has taken the joy out of flying. I never thought I would experience it, but I'm starting to suffer from the symptoms of burn-out. Not good...

Anything done in excess leads eventually to boredom and complacency. Heck, even sex would be a pain if you were forced to do it every day for 8 hours!

I feel that the 45 hour work week that many of us have to endure (soon to be 60 hours here in the EU, thank you very much!) coupled with this monotonous and totally devoid of creativity job, such as this airline flying is, leads many of us to wish we would have taken a cushy 9-5 in a cubicle somewhere (like so many of our "smarter" management pilots).

And this constant refering to a 9-5 cubicle job as the only alternitive to flying? What? Are there no other jobs that a university educated, highly structured and professional, reliable and diligent person (pilot) can take? I'm surprised at the lack of imagination.

My younger brother embarked on a pilot career. Fortunately, I talked him out of it before he put in too much time and money, as I had. He now works for one of the companies that leases out the planes we fly. He travels the world negotiating deals with the airlines, living it up, wining and dining, having a great time and getting paid quite well. AND he gets to fly the birds (737 rated) a few times per month, just enough to keep it thrilling. He is oh so glad that I talked him out of an airline job. Soon he'll be vice-pres and making a hell of alot more than me.

For me, it's too late to change roads. Strapped down with debt, three kids to support and soon to be 43 years old I can only bite the bullet and try to keep sane. Fortunately, I'm now moving over to the long haul on the A340. While the flights are tedious, the life is better. Short haul is for the masochists.

For all the wannabies I say- DON'T DO IT! Fly as a hobby if you love it so much. Don't make it your profession!

[PULL THROUGH]

I too got out! after ten years of Airlines I moved to a different part of the aviation world. Don't regret the move for one second : lower pay I must admit but, being treated as a professional once more and my contribution being valued is ample compensation.
Wanabes beware the luster of the big shiny jet soon dulls in the poison atmosphere of most Airlines

[Mentaleena]

Flying is fun, being EMPLOYED by a bunch of to$$ers is another thing altogether.

[silo]

I want to say something in regard...
I gave up on flying 3 years ago, got my self a job in Computer repair/networking and I work for my self. I decide when to go to customers in need and if one day I just feel I want to be home I can do it without having to ask anybody. The money isn't great and because of that we can't really go out at nights, take trips every now and then or enjoy life in general. Now, if I wanted to, I could try to get more customers or eventually go working for a company 9 to 6. In either case, I would be working my ass off and I'd be away from home or I would be at home working until late at night, not being able to enjoy life anyway. Plus I would be doing something that I don't really enjoy as much as flying.
In any job there is good things and bad things. You live only once and I think you should take a job that satisfies you the most.
I think nothing can compare to the pilot job, when you are up in the air and watching the sun go down behind a carpet of clouds. I don't think anything can compare to the adrenaline flowing in your body during a take off or an instrument approach.
Being a pilot it's something I would be very proud of. Nothing can compare to that.
I could go on but I'll stop it here bacuse I have an appointment in half an hour and I really need to get going.

Just my 2 cents.

[Firestorm]

I still enjoy the flying in a day to day sense, but the career opportunities seem to be getting pretty limited, and that is what's worrying me. I don't want to spend the rest of my life on a turbo-prop, and a turbo-prop salary. Enjoying the view doesn't pay the mortgage. :confused:

[Aviate378]

...happens quite often that we glide (with those Rolls-Royces idling) over the very same gliderport where it all started 28 years ago when a young boy soloed his first time with an ASK-13 sailplane.

Even though the view from the left seat of a Boeing 757 is bit different the enjoyment and fun is still around... And I do feel that I'm living the best of life there is. Absolutely no doubd about it!

[RAT 5]

Hey guys & gals; let's not get confused here.

There's the job, and then there's the lifestyle.

The job's the almost the same, whoever you work for. True, the enviroment might be different, i.e. sunny climes or chilly cold rainy conditions; type a/c. The enjoyment of wooshing through lower space writing poetry as you marvel at nature's creations? fantastic!

The lifestyle depends entirely on who you are lucky, or unlucky, enough to work for; and even within that, it will depend on what type you fly. That criteria is often the luck of the draw. Therein lies the root difference in the comments made here.

After 10 airlines, following 5 years in GA, and 5 different countries, I can look back and say there were many wonderful experiences. I can also say that most of my bosses were absloute M.F.ers's who should not have been in charge of a supermarket trolley. Friends, who lucked in, and ended up on the gravy train of some major, also had the same opinion of their masters, but somehow found, after comparison, that they could live with their lot, and not wished to swop. Overall they were happy campers.

Some of us came up heads, others tails. C'est la vie.

Would I do it again? Probably. Would I recommend it to a buddy? only if an assured berth of the next shuttle could arranged. I agree with Hairbrushmadam, part-time is the way to go to escape the sweat shop. As someone commented earlier on another thread, half salary = twice the quality of life.

[masalama]

If I got the same T & C's for my first flying job(flight instructor) as I do today , I'd leave in a second .......that was the most fun I've ever had, all my fond memories of flying and the people I flew with are from back there....it's ironic 'cos back then I would have sold off a part of my body for this job .... I keep telling myself WHEN I retire I'm going to a little flying school in the middle of nowhere and teach part-time at my own leisure ....anybody need an instructor in 2020?????

masalama

[Xelcia]

Hello All,

I've just been reading through this entire thread to see what oppinions are being outed about the pro's and con's about this proffesion.

I myself am still a long way away from flying, I have just started groundschool as a matter of fact. But even so, I am looking forward to this proffesion.

It seems to me that there are obviouls disadvantages that come with is, there are the irregular hours, airlines these days are more than ever out for optimum efficiency which usually doesn't involve a caring human factor, usually the opposite. I can believe that this job has a strain on the personal life, especially in family context. I myself am not married yet, neither have proposed, but I do seek a future with a good job/relation balance and this is hard to find in this line of proffesion.

But what about the advantages? The flying, vibrations that go throught the aircraft when take off power is selected? The magnificent views on the horizon, the challenge of getting it right? To me everything might seem more idealized than reality really is. And obvioulsy here in groundschool the only stories told are the ones which encourage study, the bad ones are but a whisper.

But is this job really that bad? When I start I don't know any better, that is my reference point, I think I will love it and then as the years go by, like so often is said, my early days become the good old days, maybe not.

The point I'm trying to make is that everything does change and nothing is the same to me as to the next person, so to say is flying still worth it or no, would in itself I think be an injustice because what evry individual has his/her own reference, his own ambitions and I guess only those make it a enjoyable or dissatisfying job.

If any of you think I have no idea what I am talking about or might want to considder some points please feel free, I'm about to start this carreer and set a certain course in my life, the more perspective and points of information, the better the estimation.

Greets, Xelcia ;)

[JP4]

The flying, vibrations that go throught the aircraft when take off power is selected? The magnificent views on the horizon, the challenge of getting it right?

Take off is +- 30"...so 2min/day if your do a four legs journey.
The challenge is reduced to do it by the book and follow the F/D. If you don't follow the book, the QAR will "tell it" to your authorities.:E

If you like challenges, go Air Force! To stay in the right wing of your leader in a barrel roll, or bring your wingman safe on the ground in bad weather...this was the challenge. And except for some period of the year, I was at home everyday (some day quite late I must confess...), but I've seen my children grow!

Now I'm making "big money" compare to my AF salary, but professionnally it's a double "0".

[gawain]

Its no the job it was in many different ways.

How long ago am I talking? Well 10 years for me but I'm darn sure that then it had changed dramatically in each of the preceeding decades since the very beginning.

[Old Smokey]

No Gawain, it's not the job it was in many different ways, it's a whole lot better, and keeps getting better every day!

I reminisce about the times, the places, the aircraft, and particularly the people in my career starting 39 years ago, they were all great. The new times, places and aircraft are so much better, and now so many more great people to add to the list who shared my 'adventure'.

The one and only depressing aspect is that I have only 4 years left to reach my 'use by' date, present predictions are that it's still going to get a whole lot better in that time.

[terrain_pull_up]

Someone mentioned getting into IT in an earlier post.

Well I'm a wannabe Airline Pilot, trying to get out of IT! I'm fed up with the 1 hour train journey to Waterloo, the battle to get a seat, invariably standing all the way. Get to the office, same old faces and office politics. Same old users complaining that the system is either too slow or doesn't work. Too busy so you always have a sandwhich at ones desk. While you are eating the hotline rings so you have to answer. Five users chasing you for resoltions to earlier calls. About to leave at the end of the day
and the system crashes so you are obliged to stay and sort the problem out. Then on call at weekends for system upgrades, regulatory upgrades. You take work home to complete as you ran out of time durnig the day etc etc etc.

And you still want to leave the airlines.... you must be crazy!

[outofsynch]

I can understand how you feel!!!

I nearly opted for IT instead of flying coz I thought then, flying would be boring after a while!

Stuck with flying and now wouldnt swap for anything! Doing a bit of IT on my laptop whilst flying would be the cat's PJ's though.

Best of luck :D

[Arkroyal]

tpu, sounds like you'll be well trained for the life:Get to the office, same old faces and office politics Get to the crew room, same old faces and company politics.
Same old users complaining that the system is either too slow or doesn't work Same old pilots whinging that the crewing department stinks
Too busy so you always have a sandwhich at ones desk Grabbing a sandwich you've bought from the cabin crew during the third out of six 5 minute cruises, in a six sector day with no break at all.
While you are eating the hotline rings so you have to answerwhile you are eating ATC call, you jam your mike with chicken and mayo
About to leave at the end of the day and the system crashes so you are obliged to stay and sort the problem outAbout to leave at the end of the day, and crewing decide you've got two more sectors to do
Then on call at weekends for system upgrades, regulatory upgrades Don't worry about this one as you'll be working 90% of weekends anyway

And you still want to leave IT.... you must be crazy!

[terrain_pull_up]

haha very good! Did I mention there's almost no women in IT ;)

[beamer]

After more than a quarter of a century in aviation I have perhaps ten years or so left in the business. Since 9/11 I have seen my
'productivity' increase by 10-15% and my T's and C's reduce by a similar amount. Aviation is NOT the world it was - all things change and yes there are interesting new aircraft on the horizon BUT the whole business is increasingly subject to bean counters who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing - you know the ones, they come in from a different industry, want to change the world in five minutes and a couple of years later are gone with a hefty bonus and another tick on their cv.

Medicals permitting I'll see through to retirement and look back through rosy glasses at the best times which in all honesty were when I was doing my private licence at a small grass airfield when I was but a lad feeling apprehensive before a lesson and brilliant on the drive home. Great people - great times............

[Paterbrat]

Clock recently ran out on the medical, framework fatigue due reaching sell by date. Have to say I would do it all over again if I was given the choice. Vividly remember first solo on the ATC glider at Tangmere at sixteen, first solo on a spam can at Sandown at seventeen, first solo in a Fournier RF4, first solo in a single holer Pitts special, first flight RHS in a Lear 24, first Jet command, first time across the pond, first command across the pond. Its been a lot of highs and a privileged way to see the world. The time away from family was a price I paid and a steep one, it contributed to a divorce, it meant a lot of living out of a suitcase and lonely nights in hotel rooms, but that's life and if everything was great and wonderfull we would lack the wherewithal to measure just how good the good can really be.
Yes there were long days and **** jobs with low pay and dangerous equipment in dodgy places. Running heavy boxes into Luanda at two in the morning does not bring back a happy smile, but then again the morning sunrise when you were heading out from the drop really did look good, but times were tight and there were bills to be paid. Flying for a happy airline was a real pleasure and some life long friends. Exec bought it's own delights rewards and hicups. It was an interesting challenging rewarding carreer. I am sorry it is over, miss the flying, all of it the good the bad and the indifferent, it was my life and who I was and what I loved doing. It was worth every single minute

[terrain_pull_up]

thanks for that insight - very rewarding.. sorry about the divorce.. hope you are happy now.

Aviation career sure beats the same old office, people, train journey!

[Oxidant]

Are you still enjoying it?!!!

ERRRR.... NO!

[terrain_pull_up]

Care to elaborate?

[FourTrails]

Ten years on, and I still love every day, from RHS TurboProp - LHS Jet

(Still hopefully more than 10 years to go!)

[unablereqnavperf]

25 years on and still love it can't wait to go to work tomorrow, even though its at an ungodly hour! The only problem is there's only 18 years left in the old frame!

Occasionally mis the days when sex was safe and flying was dangerous but the advancing years have made the former less important and i do enjoy safe flying!

[eugi]

hi everybody

oh yes, just got my first job. no reason to be unhappy
cheers

[lamina]

No I'm bloody well not.

Could you guys just drop this pathetic subject, as I've got to start looking for another job!!!!!

There is far more important ****e on R&N than this crap.

Thank you.

[moo]

somebody's tired..........:)

[wirebyfly]

I'm growing tired of the these old fuddy duddies sticken it to the airlines, I'm a young pilot who just got on with one of the majors, by far the most exciting time of my life, I would'nt trade it for anything. So if lifes so bad, quite your job logoff pprune and move me up the seinority list. errg!

[RoyHudd]

Yep, got 3 weeks off. Loving it!

[Airbubba]

October 15, 2004

For Many Airline Pilots, the Thrill Is Gone

By CLAUDIA H. DEUTSCH
The New York Times

Neil Swindells, who flies a United Airlines Airbus 320 out of Chicago, remembers why he chucked his job as a financial analyst to go to flight school nearly 15 years ago. It was not just the prospect of a six-figure salary for flying maybe 80 hours a month, or the lure of being in charge, or the sheer fun of flying. It was, most of all, the glamour, the respect that the pilot's uniform got from passengers and airline management (usually, former pilots themselves) alike.

When United Airlines hired him nearly 10 years ago, "I thought I'd won the brass ring,'' Mr. Swindells said. "It was my ticket to financial independence, to socioeconomic status, to prestige.''

Today, that ticket feels like a trap. Only the lowest-cost airlines are hiring these days, and they have never paid as much as the mainstream lines like United, a unit of UAL. And a seniority system that bumps pilots down to entry-level jobs when they switch airlines makes it costly to jump ship among the so-called legacy carriers.

Of course, the airlines are in a trap, too. United and US Airways are struggling to get out of bankruptcy; Delta Air Lines is poised on the brink of it. Desperate to cut costs, they are turning to the pilots again and again, seeking ever more concessions.

Not so long ago, even asking for such a vote would have been laughable. In negotiations, the pilots called the shots. When the airlines balked, pilots had many ways to bring them into line. In the summer of 2000 - when weather and air traffic congestion were already wreaking havoc - United pilots staged a work-rule slowdown. Numerous flights were delayed; United was forced to apologize to customers; and the pilots won one of their richest contracts ever.

But today, while pilots still feel in command in the air, they increasingly are feeling slighted, almost impotent, on the ground. Airlines have extracted huge salary, work-rule and benefits concessions from them. Layers of vice presidencies have been created at many corporate headquarters, so that the chief pilot, the person who oversees all of the fliers, rarely reports directly to the top anymore.

Pilots are not giving in without a fight. Northwest, for one, is pleading with its pilots for $300 million in concessions. Pilots at US Airways, where salaries have already been cut by an average of $89,000 a year, are refusing to allow a vote on the company's bid for still more cuts. Delta and its pilots have been at odds all year about the airline's bid for $1 billion in cuts, despite repeated threats by Delta to seek Chapter 11 protection.

Without pilots to lead them, other employee groups generally sit back on similar requests for cuts. But once the airline files for Chapter 11, the sway that pilots have over their fate and those of other workers cedes to a judge's control. And with it, the pilot's dominance is eaten away.

Gone, too, is much of the glamour, a casualty of the plummeting fares that have made air travel available to the masses. "People used to wear stockings and heels; we loved welcoming them to the cockpit, and hearing them say, 'Thanks, captain, you did a great job,' when they disembarked,'' said John A. McFadden 3d, who flew for United from 1967 until March of 2000, when he hit the federally mandated retirement age of 60. "Now you have to ask them to put shoes on, and security issues keep the cockpit door closed.''

All airlines face that, of course, but as a group, United pilots seem particularly galled. United was owned by its employees until its bankruptcy in 2002, so the pilots not only felt on a par with management, in a sense they were management.

United and other airlines say that in a world where low-cost carriers are grabbing market share, fuel prices are skyrocketing and passengers are surfing the Internet for the cheapest fares, they have no choice but to cut costs. But pilots say they have already given too much.

"The only idea this company has is to take more money from us,'' Mr. Swindells said. "Well, I don't see the C.E.O. taking a 30 percent pay cut. When they get their house in order, we'll look at further concessions.''

If Mr. Swindells, even in his defiance, holds out the possibility of further sacrifices, it is probably because he recognizes how dire United's condition remains. It is facing a $1 billion increase in its fuel bill this year, it recently cut back its domestic flights, it is considering yet more layoffs and the termination of its pension plans, and it is facing unremitting competition from low-cost rivals.

Indeed, not all pilots are as disaffected as Mr. Swindells. "Yes, pilots have less authority, and service is skeletal, but cost accounting is making that happen throughout corporate America,'' said Mr. McFadden, the retired pilot.

His son, John B. McFadden, 37, has been flying for United since 1995, and he, too, seems more saddened than angry. He is the captain of a 737 that flies primarily to the Rockies and Canada, and he is clear-eyed about the mounting drawbacks of his job.

When flying took a hit after Sept. 11, he was bumped from captain on a 737 to first officer on a 767 at a "hefty pay cut'' - to $120 an hour from $148 an hour. He regained his pilot's status about six months ago, but he still makes less money than before, is away from home for longer stretches, and worries about his eventual retirement pay.

United should be able to find ways to cut costs without turning to the employees, he said. "I still love flying, but I know pilots who think it's gone from a dream job to a daily grind.''

No wonder. The economy has forced the grounding of many planes and the furloughing of nearly 9,300 pilots, while technology has eliminated some of the entry-level jobs. Pilots used to start out as flight engineers -making sure the instruments are functioning properly - and worked their way up to co-pilot and finally, captain. Now, computers often do what flight engineers once did, which means that increasingly, there are only two cockpit jobs to fill.

And the glamour is tarnished. "I can still remember, as a kid, flying economy class and seeing a flight attendant roll a cart down the aisle, carving slices from a roast for the passengers,'' the younger Mr. McFadden recalled. "The service, the uniforms, everything about air travel seemed glamorous.''

These days, airplanes have become what many pilots disparagingly call "the Greyhounds of the sky,'' and that has unleashed a vicious cycle: with per-ticket revenue so low, airlines have had to cram in more seats per plane and replace roasts and Champagne with soda and peanuts. And, pilots say, as airports become more congested, more flights are delayed, making passengers cranky. "Airlines have not escaped the WalMartization of everything in America,'' Mr. Swindells complained.
Pilots are still paid relatively well, so often elicit little sympathy from the general public. But Mr. Swindells gets furious when he hears people speak of their supposedly cushy life. Before United declared bankruptcy, Mr. Swindells was making $200 an hour for the 78 hours he spent in the air each month and his annual salary approached $200,000. Today, after more than $1 billion in concessions from the pilots' union, he makes $130 an hour. He gets 10 days off instead of the prior 12, and his pay for waiting in airports or hotels during layovers has also been reduced.

Indeed, he was speaking by phone with a reporter from O'Hare International Airport during a two-hour break between his landing a flight from Toronto and taking off again for Spokane, Wash. - two hours for which he says he is not paid.

"If you fly 85 hours a month, you're probably away from home for 320 hours, and you're working 10-hour days for five hours' pay,'' he said. Which means he would have to clock in a lot more time than before to reach the $200,000 mark.

Mr. Swindells expects that soon after he completes this latest tour, he'll be called in at the last minute to pilot another multiday trip. United, like other airlines, has always had the contractual right to schedule pilots on four hours' notice but, he said, rarely did. Now, after furloughing more than 2,000 pilots as part of a cost-cutting measure, it does.

"I'll come back from five days away and assume I'll be called for another trip,'' he said. "I won't welcome it. It will help my pay, but I've got a 6-year-old and an 8-year-old, and after five days away, I'm desperate to be home.''

The airlines, of course, say they need for pilots to be more productive. But Mr. Swindells and others say they are bearing the brunt of management incompetence.

"The bloated structure of United Airlines is the problem, not employee pay,'' he insisted. He points to a recent trip, in which he flew from Chicago to Toronto, Toronto to Chicago, then Chicago to Spokane, then back to Chicago. The trip took five days; one of them, he said, he spent in a hotel in Spokane, doing nothing and being paid only his expenses.

"The airlines say they want us to be more productive,'' he said. "So why do they keep me sitting in a hotel for an entire day?''

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/15/business/15pilots.html?pagewanted=all&position=

[rubik101]

First time back on pprune after several years away! What a difference a few years make.
Remember the story about the old pilot looking down at the boy fishing on the dock and wishing he was down there, and the little boy looking up and wishing he was up there. That was probably written by one of the Wright brothers. Nothing has changed. There will always be dreamers and always be 'old' pilots who want out.
Part-time is an option some of you 'old' pilots might consider. I have been working 50% now for 10 years. I miss the money but that factor is more than compensated by the quality of life. I have another business which takes up some of my time off but that is so far removed from flying as to be a joy. If your company will let you, ask them about it.
Two pilots on 50% rosters are more productive than one on a 100% roster. Each can do 55 or 60 hours in a month. Find a buddy and lean on them!

[::Joey::1985620]

<pilot wannabe>

come on.. so little positive comments?
bored, sick of it, doing it for the money?

:ugh: and i was told only the people who really love the industry would be in the industry

[Airguitar]

A buddy of mine said "You don't see Rolex's in the cockpit anymore..." This is true, the Industry is not what it was when I started out, but I still fly with guys who arrive for work as I do,, Bright-eyed and bushy tailed...
If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[Justbelowcap]

In my experience we spend 10 hours moaning about how life is so unfair, but still fly the aircraft as soon as we leave the hold and a smooth landing always brings a smile to the face. We then sit in a bar, in some corner of the world, buying beer and moan some more about the state of the flying world. Then just before we retire, a quick glance across to your mate before you admit (almost ashamed) that actually you love flying and it's the best job in the world.

Next day at pick up, you both start moaning again!

[eugi]

justbelowcap

wonderful post. i fully agree

cheers eugi

[tunalic2]

Some people love to fly

Some people love to moan

Some people love to do both!

[ZQA297/30]

Life is a cyclic thing. Never forget that.
Right now and for a year or two more, there will be tremendous pressure on employees, especially pilots.
But....
Numbers going through training schools are down, many "baby boomers" are retiring soon.
Air travel continues to grow, slowly I admit, despite terrorists et al.

One day, with little warning, all the furloughs will be back, and new hiring will start. Shock, horror, not enough trained pilots!!!
Boot now on other foot.
I think that time will be two to four years off, but inevitable.
What say you?














are we there yet?

[Kaptin M]

Airbubba's post has identified what I believe is the BIGGEST reason airlines are struggling to survive these days, and in the process reducing the conditions of the primary REVENUE PRODUCING employees....Layers of vice presidencies have been created at many corporate headquarters, and"The bloated structure of XXXXX Airlines"
Airlines have become infested with overpaid, non-revenue productive parasites, whose SOLE task is to try to trim a few dollars from anywhere they can, whilst receiving ridiculously inflated salaries.

[cactusbusdrvr]

I got this off our ALPA forum. It's the best example of airline mismanagement that I've ever heard.

This would be funnier if it wasn't so accurate:

Judge: Ok, let’s get these proceedings started. I understand you are the attorney representing Delta Air Lines, and that Delta Air Lines is seeking protection under the chapter 11 of the federal bankruptcy code. Is this correct sir? Yes your honor.

J: As you are aware, in order to grant bankruptcy protection, the law requires that your company must have done everything reasonable in its power to prevent a declaration of bankruptcy. Furthermore, this court must be presented with a viable business plan to ensure this situation does not happen again. I must now review actions by Delta Air Lines leading up to this situation. Please state your case.

DL: Your honor, for the past three years, Delta has suffered major financial losses and a dramatic increase in debt. We are now in a position whereby we cannot pay the debt service given our current revenue and costs. We feel, the primary culprit of our financial situation is pilot salary costs and we seek relief from the pilot contract.

J:That's it? Just the pilots?

DL:Uh, yes your honor.

J:Well looking at your quarterly financial reports for the past 7 years, it appears you have let your debt level to swell up to around 20 billion dollars, which causes roughly an annual debt service of a billion dollars per year. So I'd like to see where all this debt came from.
First, I see that your company engaged in a 2.5 billion dollar stock buy back program. How much is this worth now?

DL:Um, virtually nothing.

J:You also spent over 2.5 billion dollars purchasing Comair and ASA?

DL: Yes. Both these companies were subcontractors of ours previously. In the case of ASA, there were quality control issues we felt could be better managed if we owned them. As for Comair, by outsourcing to them so much work, we allowed to become a monopoly in our Cincinnati hub. We were afraid they could become a competitor, or be purchased by one of our competitors.

J: OK, I also see that your management then went on an aircraft spending spree, buying hundreds of regional jets for your Comair and ASA Delta Connection division at a cost of an additional few billion dollars. I hope these planes are a wise investment. Are they are cheaper to operate?

DL: Well not exactly. These regional jets have a seat cost of around 16 to 19 cents per seat mile whereas our existing mainline jets cost about 9.5 cents.

J: So then I hope they attract more passengers. They are more comfortable, right?

DL: No, they are smaller, offer no first class, no overhead storage, and you have to be a contortionist to use the lavatory. But they sure beat flying a turboprop. We believe we can we create greater demand due to higher frequency when we replace mainline flying with these jets.

J: So you offer more of a product your customer does not truly prefer?

DL: Yes, but they are profitable.

J: Well how can that be when they cost almost twice as much to operate?

DL: Oh that's easy. Delta mainline subsidizes them by purchasing their airplanes, paying for their facilities, providing marketing, as well as reservations, distribution, etc. etc. Basically, we pay all their fixed costs.

J: Well how would Delta mainline be doing if Delta Connection was actually paying their own expenses?

DL: Well it does not matter, we are all one big company and all the money goes into one big pot, so to speak.

J: Then how do you know if the regional jets are truly profitable?

DL: Um, I’ll have to get back to you in about four to six weeks on that one.

J: And if all your money goes into one big pot, how is it you figure that your mainline pilot costs are your problem?

DL: Look, we need to get our costs down and this is the easiest expense to go after, OK!

J: That is your plan? I did mention you have to have a viable business plan, right? How is your Song operation doing?

DL: Great! It is profitable, customers love it, and it has received great reviews from the press.

J: Because you have gotten lower cost pilots at Song?

DL: Well your honor, that is not exactly correct. Song uses the same mainline pilots at the same pay rates.

J: Bailiff, can you get me some aspirin? I am getting a headache.

Bailiff: Here you go sir.

J: All right, what about these charges of over a billion dollars for terminal improvements in Boston and New York?

DL: Well, our old terminals looked yucky.


J: Yucky? How about the 600 million you lost due to the Comair strike? I hope it was worth it.

DL: Well, we settled at our last offer, so we didn't really save anything. We figure the difference between what the Comair pilots wanted and what we gave them will have been worth it in about 20 years.

J: And I see a few hundred million dollars spend for stock equity in a South American airline?

D: That airline unfortunately went out of business, your honor.

J: I see. I mentioned that Delta needed a viable business plan. You do understand this would presume a management team capable of competent execution and decision making. It appears as though your management has exercised all the financial restraint, responsibility and competence of a spoiled sorority girl with her fathers Neiman Marcus charge card. Were they penalized?

DL: Um no. Actually we gave them bonuses. And a separate bankruptcy proof retirement trust fund. You have to pay top dollar to keep top talent!

J: And have been able to keep top talent?

DL: Well, the funny thing is.............um.......they kind of...........left.

J: All of them?

DL: Just about.

J: Well that is the first good news I've seen regarding this case so far. From what I have seen so far, I am very concerned about the debt accumulation which has been allowed. It appears Delta would be profitable now if there were not such huge debt service. Do you seek a restructuring of your debt? I see about half of it is unsecured. Your requests so far have been unusual in that with most bankruptcy proceedings, debt reduction and restructuring is the main priority.

DL: Uh, can we have our pilot pay cut now please?

J: Enough about operating costs and debt service. How about revenue?

DL: Well, demand is down so we have no pricing power.

J: Really? What are your load factors?

DL: In the 80% range.

J: That seems kind of high.

DL: Actually it is an all time record.

J: Shouldn't you raise ticket prices?

DL: I'll have to get back to you on that one as well, your honor. You see, a funny thing happened. We tried to save money by cutting out travel agent middle men by forcing our customers to the internet. And we kind of lost control of our product distribution. (Heh heh!) We believe the customer always goes with the lowest price