Typhoons export chances?(Merged)

[jwcook]

(From Western Daily Press)

In a recent competition run by Singapore to find a replacement for its F16 fighters, Typhoon was up against the American F15E and the French Rafale. Typhoon won all three combat tests, including one in which a single Typhoon defeated three RSAF F16s, and reliably completed all planned flight tests. According to one observer, neither competitor aircraft could claim the same (Defence Analysis August 2004).


This is the first details of the deployment I've seen., by all accounts the Singaporeans were very impressed, including reports of demonstrated M1.21 Supercruise on a hot humid day at noon. anyone else had any feedback on the deployment. good or bad?.

Has anyone else heard of export possibilities to Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Switzerland, and what do you think its chances are in each.

I would love some comments from pilots on the aircrafts performance.


Cheers

[mbga9pgf]

Be interesting to see whether the engagement was BVR or "up close and personal". Typhoon I feel will have excellent export capabilty, as long as the project is not further delayed. I suppose you would also have to take into account of what block F-16's they were, and whether AWACS was involved.

MBGA

[jwcook]

I would imagine that it would have been BVR, WVR doesn't tell you as much with regard to system/performance as a BVR Exercise.

I would also think that three F-16's against one Typhoon WVR is a bit of a lottery.

From the WWW it seems the Singaporeans have
8xF-16A/Bs, Block 15 OCU standard.
30xF-16/D's, Block 52
12xF16C/D's, Block 52
and possibly another
20xF16C/D's Block 52+

It would seem sensible to pit the contenders against a later Mk aircraft, to really test out the future aircraft.

Can anyone guess the varient that was used against the Typhoons.


Cheers

[the_flying_cop]

hurrah for the typhoon.

did it have an english driver too? always nice to hear us get one over on american equipment.

you never know we may fall out with them one day and get our independance back !!!

[jwcook]

The aircraft were flown out to Singapore by no 17 squadron aircrew, and two BAE pilots, Archie Neil and Brian Kemp flew the evaluations with Singaporean pilots in the cockpit.

and from the excellent Air Forces Monthly:-
AFM understands, however, that the evaluation, which was the first time Typhoon had flown outside Europe, was a resounding success. Though BAE and Eurofighter will not confirm any details, it is believed that the two aircraft flew 28 missions, totalling 35 flying hours, during the course of which the aircraft convincingly demonstrated its air-to-air capabilities, first against a pair of F-16s and then against a package of six F-5S and F-16C/D aircraft. It also demonstrated its ability to 'supercruise' (fly supersonically without reheat), achieving Mach 1.21 on a normal, hot Singapore day. This impressed the Singaporeans - and Typhoon's rival bidders, whose aircraft require reheat for supersonic flight.
"They didn't wait for the cool evening, they didn't wait for a cooler day - they just went out and did it in a hot, daytime, tropical environment," one Rafale programme insider told AFM, with grudging admiration. "The Singaporeans were astonished ask asked why they hadn't advertised that they could do it. The answer was that these RAF jets weren't weighed down with a tonne of flight test instrumentation, so they could do it where the Development Aircraft ere probably a little slower!"

Cheers

[BlueWolf]

OK; so what happens if they're flying against, say, Indonesian Su-30s, and the Indonesians let off an EMP bomb obtained from their large neighbours to the north, and it fries the Typhoon's computers, and they can't control the leading edge anymore?

At least the F-16 will still be controlable.

Unstable airframes = not a good idea, IMHO. A bit like warships made from combustable alloy, or armoured vehicles with rubber tyres.

Or do we have absolute faith in this unproven concept based on untried theory and falible technology?

[jwcook]

OK I'll bite...

1. Just how big an EMP bomb are you talking about?, you really want to be pretty selective where you pop those off.

2. Just how is the F-16's 4 channel digital fly by wire system immune?, does it have reversionary controls, how does that work with a side stick?.

3. Even if the F-16 were to be fully controllable in flight , what are you going to do with it, ram something?.


Just wondering.

Cheers

[BlueWolf]

Curious sort of bite, but nevermind;

1) Why does the size of the EMP device matter? Simple answer in two parts, first, large enough to be effective, and second, they're not selective, that's the whole point of them.

2) Fly by wire and fly by light are both controlled ultimately by a human. The leading edge in an unstable airframe is controlled by a computer. The computer is susceptible to EMP. Humans aren't, at least not in the sense of the pulse emitted by the devices under discussion.

3) Your gun will still work even if your missiles don't, but the important distinction is that your airframe will remain stable and controllable long enough for you to a) point it away from anyone on the ground, and b) get out of it and survive. Your unstable Typhoon airframe won't allow either of these things.

Everyone thought magnesium ships were the best thing since sliced bread, till they went to the Falklands.

Just a thought.

[jindabyne]

Bluewolf

There is an answer to your question that would knock your concerns on the head. Trouble is, if anyone gave it to you, they'd be shot.

[jwcook]

First the reference to the EMP device is to be careful where you pop them off, such a large device over your own soil will cause more havoc than a Typhoon, so its got to be delivered somehow if its a small device.
BTW modern military aircraft are hardened to EMP, you'd have to be pretty close to pop off a small device, a large device would cause all sorts of problems.


Can you explain a couple of things to me,

How can a digital FBW aircraft not use computers, 'Fly by wire and fly by light are both controlled ultimately by a human' thats fine and dandy, but the pilots commands are collected by the side stick, then what?, it has to be quantised, transmitted and acted apon. How if not electronically?.

IS the gun on an F16 physically linked to the fire button, hope its not through any semiconductors!!, and your fire control isn't going to help with leading the shot.

As for the loss of control, your absolutley right, the Typhoon would start to lose control about 1/50 of a second after the FCS went bang!, leading to a rapid departure and probabely airframe breakup, not an ideal situation for an ejection. but then again the auto stab on the F-16 would seem to be at risk too.

In short how does the pilots commands in an F-16 get from the side stick to the flight control surfaces?.


Cheers

[ORAC]

EMP works by inducing voltage in the boxes and connecting cables. You prevent it by putting the boxes in faraday cages and connecting them by fibre-optic cables which are, effectively, not susceptable to EMP.

"Since fly-by-wire without manual reversion requires the highest integrity, the Typhoon is fitted with a quadruplex FBW flight control system. Each of the four FBW units comprises eight 68020 processors, as well as several application-specific integrated circuits (ASICs) for handling critical tasks. Each box connects to the main avionics system via a STANAG-3910 high-speed optical data bus.

Avionic Systems Standardisation Committee (http://www.era.co.uk/assc/FO1.doc)

[Lima Juliet]

Most modern fast-jets will turn into inefficient gliders after a significant EMP burst in their vicinity - my bo!!ocks probably won't like it either...

LJ:ok:

[Echo 5]

the_flying_cop,

Don't wish to appear petulant/pedantic but............

" did it have an english driver too? "

No................but he/they were probably British !!

[lightningmate]

Archie is most certainly not English!

lm

[Echo 5]

lightningmate,

Don't know the guy but the name does have a certain Celtic flavour. Not wishing to appear presumptuous I thought the generic term of " British " would be appropriate.;)

[Zoom]

I had always thought that the F-16 was unstable (good for agility) and had no manual FC backup.

[Magoodotcom]

"I had always thought that the F-16 was unstable (good for agility) and had no manual FC backup."

F-16 is most certainly unstable and does not have a manual backup. If the Typhoon were to depart controlled flight 1/50th of a second after being fried, the F-16 would be right with it.

Magoo

[John Farley]

F-16 is most certainly unstable

Isn't it amazing how some ideas persist?

There is a world of difference between stability that is relaxed below the standerd used for ordinary aeroplanes and instability which is just that.

[ORAC]

"When you start looking at the F-16 from the aerodynamic standpoint, one particular fact immediately stands out: This (the F-16) is the first operational aircraft intentionally designed to have a negative static margin. In subsonic flight, the F-16 is negatively stable (read, unstable) in pitch."....
F-16 Aerodynamics By Joe Bill Dryden — Senior Experimental Test Pilot

Code One (http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1986/articles/apr_86/f16_aero/)

[John Farley]

Thats interesting!

Now we can have a scrap between 'my' F-16 tp (who told me what I quoted) and yours!

Should be good to watch

Mind you it may be a block number issue which would be dull....

[Jackonicko]

I'd always understood that the F-16 was unstable, and recall various Farnborough display pilots saying so in the early days, when it first came over.

[Navaleye]

I think Jacko is right, I'm sure I saw some F16 sales blurb which said it was the first a/c designed to be unstable from the outset. Mind you that was 30 yrs ago.

[M609]

The F-16 is unstable. After engine failure, it's controllable as long as the EPU has fuel, then it's curtains.....and time to leave and take the furniture with you. :E

[althenick]

With regards to EMP - did they not overcome this in the late eighties??? last I heard was that the had a Gamma detector that earthed down the equipment before the pulse hit - Hard to do that on an aircraft I suppose - where's the earth! - Bring back Valves ala the foxbat!:D

[just noise]

Let's recap

On the off chance that someone lets off an EMP bomb, Singapore should buy F-16, even though the Typhoon beats the pants off the F-16 in the first place.

Chances of Indo getting an EMP bomb?

Chances of Indo going to war with Singapore?

Chances of Typhoon being EMP proof?

Chances of F-16 being EMP proof?

Congrats BlueWolf you have been chosen to represent the UK MoD in the next round of procurement. Go directly to DPA and start writing contracts (sorry I presume you dont work there anyway).

Well done to the Typhoon boys and girls. Firstly for getting the jets out and back, and secondly for giving this project a shot in the arm.

I was lead to beleive that the F-16 was a neutral stability aircraft.

[caspertheghost]

M609.
The fact that the F16 is uncontrollable without power has nothing to do with it being "unstable", more to do with the pilot being unable to move any of the control surfaces!!!

[16 blades]

Unstable does not necessarily mean unflyable. I would hazard that both aircraft would be unflyable, though, in the event of complete loss of electronics.

Well done to the Typhoon boys - but haven't we been here before? Lets hope our govt now has the balls to resist the inevitable pressure from our US cousins now that they've been shown up. It would be a crying shame if Typhoon were to become the TSR/2 of the 21st century!

Time to see if the 'special relationship' flows both ways.........

(not holding breath..............)

16B

[A10 Thundybox]

samantics chaps

Its rather a definitional arguement, less stable and unstable do eventually meet up somewhere, instability is surely infinite? The more something will tend to want to plough in, the more corrections per second it will require, and so it goes...I guess you have to draw a line between instability and less stable at the point where the human fails and processing power succeeds...?

EMP is a threat but surely there is a newer,cheaper, greater threat from infection to the onboard systems?

[BlueWolf]

Hmm. I've been out of both the UK and the industry for many years now.

To answer just noise's points;

1. Undefinable, but probably good

2. Massive

3. Nil

4. Probably nil, but also probably N/A

Correct, I don't work for DPA. If the call were mine, I'd say UK go for a mix of F-15 and Gripen until such time as you can build your own replacement without interference from Europeans and other incompetents.

And I believe my definition of instability is fairly close to that of John Farley.

[Jackonicko]

"If the call were mine, I'd say UK go for a mix of F-15 and Gripen until such time as you can build your own replacement without interference from Europeans and other incompetents."

F-15 is inferior to Typhoon, why would we buy it?

Gripen is inferior to Typhoon, but it would be a great interim aeroplane and a useful addition in a high:low mix. But it's made by European 'incompetents'.

[ORAC]

Chances of Typhoon being EMP proof? - Nil

Nil? You speak with what authority?

"...Ultra Electronics Electrics Division (UEED)...supply the pilot's Stick Top and Throttle Top for the Eurofighter Typhoon Aircraft, and are therefore responsible for the design and test requirements referenced in the equipment Specification. One of these requirements is Nuclear Hardening."

"QinetiQ, as one of the few global companies that currently offers EMP consultancy, is working with the Typhoon Integrated Project Team and overseeing the work to ensure the aircraft will survive an EMP."

BAe EMP tools (http://www.compliance-club.com/currentissue/article.asp?artid=75)

Eurofighter test generators:

SG NEMP-EFA 1, SG NEMP-EFA 2
Pulse simulators according to the EuroFighter-specification SPE-J-000-E-1000 / chapter 4.3.5 (Issue 1,1991-02-14)....With these simulators / test systems equipment or installations can be tested to direct and indirect electromagnetic effects of a nuclear explosion.

An EMC test system from Rohde & Schwarz has gone into operation MTU in Munich. The company is now able to carry out its own EMC tests on engine control systems, test equipment for control systems and ground handling equipment The system allows tests to various regulations such as EFA standard SPE-J-000-E-1000.

[BlueWolf]

Hello again ORAC old chap. And apart from lots of free time and a good search engine, your authority is...what precisely?

Specifications, schmecifications. It's never been tested against one. All we have to go on are glossy brochures and spin. I have been aware of the concept described in your link for some considerable time. I do not believe it will actually work in practice. Time, very probably, will prove one of us correct. If that turns out to be you, I will happily eat humble pie. If it's me, billions will have been wasted, and many good people will die needlessly.

Jacko, Typhoon may prove to be superior to the F-15 in time. On paper, it should be. Until then, Typhoon's record is that and nothing more; on paper. The Eagle's record is in the air. It is a proven system.
And the Swedes are not Europeans. They are Scandinavians. There is a difference. Ask any one of them. Ask me, in fact.

[mr hanky]

Hey, it works with all sorts of things. Look:

'Typhoon may prove to be superior to the Spitfire in time. On paper, it should be. Until then, Typhoon's record is that and nothing more; on paper. The Spitfire's record is in the air. It is a proven system.'

Works for me!

[jindabyne]

Bluewolf

So, can you tell us which platform HAS been tested against one -aside from Enola Gay?

All modern systems are susceptible to EMP, and without adequate protection, most would be fatally affected. ORAC describes just some of the 'protection' procedures being applied to Typhoon - and as I implied in an earlier post, there are others which cannot be described in too much detail. All the next generation combat aircraft will be subject to similar treatment; not glossy brochure or spin - but rigorous development and production measures to give the best guarantees available - with the knowledge gained from earlier aircraft (eg Tornado) that were badly protected to begin with. In all of the foregoing, prey tell us just how different Typhoon differs from the rest of the next.

Your response to Jacko belongs in yesterday's tray. Whilst Typhoon has yet to show its combat capability in-Service, there is now enough demonstrated evidence to claim confidence in its superiority (I deliberately avoided the use of 'potential') - especially in the A/A role. Ask those who have flown both. I acknowledge that the A/S role will depend on customer funding - the 'spec' is there, and achievable. All of that avoids talk of cost of ownership, availability, and all related issues - no longer the sole realm of the marketeers.

You seem a little over-sceptical old chap. And oh yaaaaaah - our Svedish friends are very different - not a little to do with a fondness for the clear stuff, schmecification, and the long white cloud.

[Razor61]

quote:- So, can you tell us which platform HAS been tested against one -aside from Enola Gay?

Valiant - dropped the bomb in Oz
B-36 -
B-47 -
B-50 - Flown to see what would happen to an aircraft when a nuke goes off nearby.

Ok, all old aircraft in the age of 'getting to know nukes'...
and not relevent to whether any 'new jets' can withstand it.
:hmm:

:ouch:

[WE Branch Fanatic]

A lot of the techniques used to protect systems from EMP are the same ones (or similar) as those used to mitigate EMC problems.

EMP weapons (thus far anyway) are short range devices, the effect is limited to with 100m (say) of the weapon. Useful against a communications centre on the ground, not so useful against a fast moving aircraft.....

[jindabyne]

Razor61

Quite right - but you got my drift I think?

[BlueWolf]

jindabyne, I'm not certain that we are actually at loggerheads here.

Yes, I'm sceptical. Very sceptical. Just to give you some background, I am an engineer. I am not an aircraft engineer. I have never served in any military. But I have worked for the UK MoD, albeit that it was a while ago now.

These days I make my living by making wine. I'm on the other side of the world from Typhoon and anything which may concern it.

So perhaps I have no business flouting my opinion here; but I have always admitted to being a guest in this forum.

I'm not sure what you mean by "yesterday's tray" with regard to my response to Jacko. I have crossed swords with the illustrious Jackonicko many times, and though we seldom agree, I do have respect for his knowledge, intellect, contacts and professional opinion. I do think that Jacko still believes I don't like Europeans. This isn't the case. I do, however, believe that aeroplanes are best built under one roof.

Without going into the detail of any of the anti-EMP technologies either available or under development, some of which I have had a little to do with, my fundamental opposition to 5th generation aircraft is the un-soundness of building an airframe which is essentialy un-aerodynamic. I believe we are placing too great a reliance on technology which is as yet unprovable.

As I have said, I believe that such an approach belongs in the same basket as building combustable warships, and putting armoured vehicles onto rubber tyres.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

But surely the technology has been proven? The F117 has been around for a while now, and is certainly unstable....until you add computers.

Like I said, the EMP problem has been around for a while now, and precautions can be taken against (and presumably have been tested in some laboratory somewhere).

As I said earlier, non nuclear EMP devices are short range (in open air anyway, if the pulse gets conducted by cables etc that's another matter).

[Navaleye]

"If the call were mine, I'd say UK go for a mix of F-15 and Gripen until such time as you can build your own replacement without interference from Europeans and other incompetents."

Is the F15 still in production? I thought it finished with the last E.

[BlueWolf]

Nope, the K is being produced brand spanking for the South Koreans, and the Saudis and Israelis still have unfinished orders on the books.

[dmanton300]

Nope, the K is being produced brand spanking for the South Koreans, and the Saudis and Israelis still have unfinished orders on the books.

There are new builds currently going on for the Koreans (Incidentally the only production F-15's to have GE F-110 engines), but the last Israeli aircraft were 24 F-15I Ra'am, delivery of which was completed some years ago. There was talk of a follow on Israeli order, but they decided the F-15I was too rich for their pockets, so instead ordered 102 F-16I Souffa, delivery of which began last year. There were the odd one or two Beagles dribbling off the line for the USAF up till a year or two ago but I think that has ceased as well.

(Only trying to help, anyone seen my anorak?)

[althenick]

EMP is a threat but surely there is a newer,cheaper, greater threat from infection to the onboard systems?


OH MY GOD - MR GATES AND HIS TEAM HAVEN'T BEEN INVOLVED IN DESIGNING THE SOFTWARE HAVE THEY??

:uhoh:

Seriously though what would be the chance of that? They test the backside of all avionics software before releasing it dont they?
Could a virus come from other sources (JTIDS/Link 11 Perhaps??)

Breaking into the oppositions Netcentric systems to leave them Deaf, Dumb and Blind? - Now there's an idea!

Just a thought

[SpinSpinSugar]

Don't joke about Mr. Gates - seems the Royal Navy's new Type 45s are already planned to run on Windows For Warships (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/06/ams_goes_windows_for_warships/).

Lets hope that trend doesn't extend to BAE's other defence interests, eh?

"Your Flight Control System has suffered a serious error. Do you wish to send an error report to Microsoft?"

Cheers, SSS

[Tarnished]

Little paper clip on the TV screen saying

looks like your trying to do an ILS, would you like some help with that?

[Violet Club]

Many many pages ago a question was asked regarding Typhoon's export chances.

Perhaps we should put all the Star Trek EMP worries to one side and consider what's really going wrong with the programme, right here and now. In other words, Tranche Two - and EF production sustainment.

Without agreement on Tranche Two there is precisely ZERO chance of any Eurofighter exports. The failure to agree T2 is already threatening to squash the deal with Austria and will make any Singaporean order a non-starter.

Eurofighter now admits that it's touch-and-go as to whether is can meet its contractual obligations to deliver on time to Austria (May 2007). In fact, the situation is worse than that and the two sides are discussing penalty clauses and compensation for a timetable that was already unrealistic before Eurofighter's optimism on T2 was blown away.

If there is no T2 agreement then we can't even give Singapore a price, never mind an outline level of capability - and bear in mind too that Singapore is going to want EOC levels of capability that are so far away right now as to be almost invisible.

The same caveats apply to the Greek deal and everything else Eurofighter has on its books right now.

If the UK does not get its act together and sign an agreement REALLY REALLY SOON this programme is going to plunge into depths of delay and cost overruns that can hardly be imagined. There is no indication that any movement is being made on HMG's side whatsoever - Eurofighter officials say the process is out of control.

The other thing to be concerned about is that all talk of Tranche Three has now disappeared off the radar. One can say, 'well, let's get T2 in the bag first' - and that's just fine, but there is almost no real discussion, planning or even movement (particularly within the UK) to indicate that there's is any ambition for 232 jets.

[jindabyne]

Violet

Don't know of the sources upon which you base your opinion, and I won't reveal mine. Although I share much of your concern, I don't think it's quite as bleak as you suggest. There is still much to play for, Tranche 2 is almost there, and potential customers - well aware of the issues to be faced - are not walking away. The product remains attractive, and whilst T3 is mostly a wish at this stage in anyone's eyes, that does not preclude the possibility of a Typhoon variant in years to come that will be an affordable and highly competitive acquisition worldwide. I don't know who those EF officials are that say things are out of control - but I do know of others that are less alarmist, and would prefer to talk of a future with much potential.

There is much that gives rise to a pessimistic scenario - equally, there is much to suggest the opposite view at this point. There are those that are working vigorously to that end.

The fat lady hasn't yet sung (or something like that) ----

[Violet Club]

Jindabyne

What is the definition of pessimism we're working with here? For at least 12 months now, if not more, programme people have been confidently telling us that the deal is about to be done - and if you ask (almost) any of them today that's still the party line.

And I suppose (at least I fervently hope) that in the most fundamental way they are right – the deal *will* be done. That has to be a given...doesn't it?

BUT at what cost – financially, industrially, politically, militarily? The UK's singular failure to sign on the dotted line for a well-telegraphed contractual milestone that has been due since 1998 is having a devastating effect.

It is putting people out of work, it is setting back deliveries of operationally useful aircraft, it is cutting the ground from under export efforts. The RAF was supposed to declare to NATO in 2006. Ask anyone for a date now and you won't get one - but in reality we are looking at 2007, probably 2008, and that's only for a bare bones FOC standard!

An FOC standard that is still not fully defined or contracted for.

Because even once we get over the whole Tranche 2 Supplement 3 hurdle there's a still a whole new round of negotiations to come, to define what those aircraft will actually DO – as I'm sure you know. Everybody 'knows' what the baseline A2G fit for the RAF will be - but is there a contract in place to make that happen?

The answer is not yes.

So, while I'm with you on the fundamental point that the T2 contract will be signed, the question of when remains valid - and every week that goes by is hurting more and more. Yes there are plenty of people working vigorously as you say, but it all boils down to this - has the Treasury handed over the money. Indeed, has the Treasury even been *asked* to hand over the money.

No. And No.

I hate to say it but I don't believe that a deal will be done before the new year - and where will that leave us?

The Fat Lady may not be singing but she's having one last drag on her fag before the curtain goes up.

[jindabyne]

Violet

You're clearly close to things. I'm now much more distant, but do still share words with senior 'do-ers' that are trying to achieve. If we were to share a beer or two, we might leave the pub thinking that there's still much to play for. It's difficult, but don't despair.

[NURSE]

How worried are the opposition about Eurofighter exports?

IE the Americans and the French?

[Frenzy]

Anyone know where i could D/L large clips of the Eurofighter in action.......please:D :)

[MobiusTrip]

The Americans do not seem even mildly perturbed about it being exported. This might be because few of them know anything/much about it, or perhaps other reasons.

MT

[ORAC]

The Americans are indeed worried, look at the campaigns fought in Austria, Hungary, Poland etc for orders. Their problem is that they do not have an equivalent platform.

The JSF is primarily a mud moving platform with a light AD load, and is long way down line for delivery for any new orders. the F-22 is unexportable because of price and security and the F-15 and F-16 are getting long in the tooth. There is just so much selling you can do on avionic upgrades.

The US aircraft industry has got itself into the cleft stick of optimising itself around the needs of the USN and USAF with high tech and the problems of technical transfer. About the sole new(ish) platform they can push is the F-18E, and even that is a limited upgrade to give it the performance promised 20 years ago.

The truth is the Americans will, within just a few years, not have an exportable, effective, AD platform. The Russians will clean up the low cost market, the French the middle and Eurofighter the top. The Americans will survive on selling hand me down F-15s as the F-22 enters service....

[jwcook]

More news items stating the signature is imminent.

Finmeccanica: ' optimistic ' on II tranche orders Eurofighter We are moderately optimistic that the thing can happen shortly '. Cosi ' the president and a.d. of Finmeccanica Guarguaglini has said: ' We are to the final phase ' of negotiatation even if there still exists a small resistance in the English Government '.

Source http://www.ilsole24ore.com/fc?cmd=news_sez&chId=30&radioId=6319179&sezId=8722

Sorry about the poor translation, I used bablefish, here's the raw Italian

Quote:
Finmeccanica: 'ottimismo' su II tranche ordini Eurofighter
Radiocor - Milano, 05 ott- 'Siamo moderatamente ottimisti che la cosa possa avvenire a breve'. Cosi' il presidente e a.d. di Finmeccanica Pier Francesco Guarguaglini sulla firma dell'ordine da parte dei Governi di Gran Bretagna, Italia, Germania e Spagna per la seconda tranche del nuovo caccia Eurofighter. Guarguaglini ha detto: 'Siamo alla fase finale' del negoziato e 'tutti i Governi sono orientati a dare quest'ordine, anche se esiste ancora un piccola resistenza nel Governo inglese'..


Perhaps someone could do a better job... :-) thanks in anticipation.



There are stock market reports that BAE is now a good buy due to imminent contract signatures, looks like somethings moving in the right direction!!!

Cheers

[Navaleye]

Well, judging the by the centrepage spread in the Sun today, the EF is almost starship enterprise technology. Anyone else read it?

12,000ft in 6 seconds?

[sprucemoose]

You're not wrong, Navaleye - he also reported that he was wearing an "anti-gravity suit".

I'm pleased to see that the former Mirror man says "Our Boys deserve nothing less" than the Typhoon. But then they also deserve tabloid journalists who don't write fabricated stories about them abusing Iraqi POWs, don't they.

"I can take the killing, I can take the slaughter, but I don't talk to Sun reporters". Well said Billy Bragg, and well done Charlie for making him sick as a dog!

[airborne_artist]

BBC Business news report here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3712770.stm) on the BAe
"secret slush fund" used to help win Saudi business. Wg Cdr Tony Winship gets a mention.

[Wigan Warrior]

"I prepared for take-off by reading The Sun in the cockpit - and for a mesmerising minute even took the controls mid-air."

I think that was a quote from the Sun reporter and not Charlie (OC 17sqn)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,5-2004460926,,00.html

[BEagle]

No doubt folks will take the pi$$ over some of The Sun's comments, but see this for what it is. Excellent PR which the RAF (and TypHoon) both desperately need.

It is certainly an astonishingly good jet - far better than most people can believe - and really needs some psitive andd aggressive marketing free of the bumbling beancounters in Whitehall!

[Flip Flop Flyer]

I'm afraid I'll have to take offence at your statement that "Sweden is not in Europe - Scandinavia is not part of Europe". That is, Sir, utter bolloqx from any point you may wish to view it from. Geographically, politically, historically and in a cultural sense, the Scandinavian countries are very much a part of Europe. I would reverse your statement and postulate that Canada is not part of North America; China is not part of Asia and New Zealand not a part of the Pacific. Catch the drift?

The Typhoon looks like an excellent platform, if it is given the necessary funds to see it through a proper development program. Cut the development short at the whim of short sighted politicians and you may end up with a flashy piece of worthlessness. I'll choose to be optimistic and trust that trance 3 will be delivered and live up to expectations. Whether or not it'll be exportable in significant numbers is as much a political decision as one based on performance and capability. The Russians might be able to offer less performance and capability, but at a significantly lower price. The Americans might be able to twist enough arms to flog inferior types, but wrap it in promises of continued political support. Or rather, failure to buy US might have adverse political consequences. Bribe and bully tactics, in other words.

Norway looks promising for the Typhoon. According to reports this end of the world, there are significant movers and shakers in the Royal Norwegian Air Force that have reservations about single engined fighters. Yes, they operate the F-16 but would like to have a twin, again, in the future. The competition is currently single (JSF) vs twin (Typhoon). They've got a lot of water up there and not much flat land to place runways on. Couple that with the Noggies being less than impressed with the SDD contracts coming from their Level 3 membership of the JSF developement group, and the Typhoon might yet win an order for around 40-60 copies.

My country, Denmark, is currently "blessed" with a government with their heads so far up Uncle Sam's arse even your Blair would faint at the thought. As a little "thank you", Terma of DK has won a couple of lucrative orders for the JSF. DK will almost certainly replace the F-16A/B MLU with JSF's.

[BEagle]

From J35 to F35 then, eh FFF?



;)

[M609]

At the moment, and at least after the next parliament election I fear that the F35 has a snowballs chance in hell of winning the "contest". (Quite anti-US feelings in the parliament at the moment, and it will stay that way if Dubaya is in office post november)

If the trend in recent polls over here come true in the election next year, the Gripen may well be in the race again.

(The retoric from the Norwegian MOD is still very pro-F35, but they are led by a blond bimbo with her head allmost as far up Rumsfeldts arse as her collauge a bit south. :yuk: Fortunately it's not her call alone...)

[Flip Flop Flyer]

Didn't know the Noggies were ever a Draken operator, but according to this site http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/norway/noraf2.htm they are now solely F-16AM/BM. I've seen RNorAF F-5s, but never any Drakens. Sure you're not mistaken them with the RDAF, who operted Drakens in recon and air-to-mud roles up until a few years ago?

In my young and foolish days in the Army, our platoon were in position over looking some stupid village during an exercise which was, technically speaking, being bombarded by artillery. Out of nowhere a Draken came zooming over our positin at a great rate of knots, but not a lot of altitude, scaring the bejeebers out of us. We responded by firing whatever was at hand at the FJ mate, until some party pooping officer shouted he was friendly. Whatever, the chance of hitting a fast moving jet with 7.62mm ejects at ever increasing range from a rifle are acedemic at best. We claimed a kill none the less, but were not surprisingly overruled by the refs. Didn't stop one entreprenurial chap from painting a silhouette of a Draken on the side of his APC, suffering the wrath of aforementioned party pooping officer for his efforts. He was a humourless idiot. Bloody noisy, them Drakens were. Gotta love that :ok:

[BEagle]

"DK will almost certainly replace the F-16A/B MLU with JSFs."

DK being Danmark, not Norway.......

[Flip Flop Flyer]

The J-35 left the RDAF inventory in 1993 according to this link:

http://www.vectorsite.net/avj35.html

[jwcook]

There have been several more reports of a tranche 2 contract in the near future., from several news sources, and financial institutions.

With ranges of a couple of days to 2 weeks., for the contract signature.

If true this is good news for the program, though the Austrians are getting a little nervious as they require their first tranche 2 jets in 32 months, and it takes 38 months to make them.

I'm assuming they will use tranche 1 aircraft for the RAF upgraded to Tranche 2 standard to solve the problem.


Cheers