New TSA Rule - Your Thoughts?

[RDRickster]

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2004/040921tsa.html

....The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) has issued a new rule that it says will guard against foreign terrorists learning to fly in the United States. While AOPA doesn't oppose the intent of the rule, the association is taking issue with the broad-brush application that would affect every single flight school and CFI.
If you read the ACTUAL requirement, it says...

....the Transportation Security Administration is requiring flight schools to notify TSA when aliens and other individuals designated by TSA apply for flight training
I think AOPA is over-reacting a bit; this isn't a big deal. For rotorcraft...

....aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or less must comply with the requirements of this rule regarding such training beginning October 20, 2004.

[helipat]

Isn't a big deal ? I'm really not sure of that.

quote:
For a foreign national to receive training in an aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds, the school or flight instructor must send TSA a photo of the student after he or she first arrives for training. The student has to send TSA passport and visa data, fingerprints, and training details, among other things. In an illustration of the confusion over the rule, the student also must supply a "unique identification number assigned by TSA." TSA will charge the student $130 to process the application.


Any foreign student will have to pay and be fingerprinted to be able to fly in the US.

I think that's really silly to put the blame on the GA as a big terrorist threat.

[B Sousa]

"Of course, if TSA determines the student is a threat, training must stop."

Yes, that would be a good idea TSA. Maybe even better idea to NOT LET THEM IN THE COUNTRY in the first place.

[Martin1234]

Just to get a visa to the USA makes you feel incriminated. This silly rule will really bite back on the training industry.

If I want to, I just go to Canada and rent an R22 and fly over the border. However, I will probably be able to do more harm with a car compared to the helicopter!

Oh, do the TSA think that the USA is the only country for flight training? It might be cheaper but the terrorists don't seem to be on a tight budget. If I really wanted to succeed in hi-jacking an aircraft in the states the last thing I'll ever do is to receive flight training IN THE STATES!

[RDRickster]

This silly rule will really bite back on the training industry I don't think this will have an adverse impact on the U.S. training industry at all. Most train under Part 61 and the few Part 141 operators that sponsor foreign students will have a little more paperwork then they already have, but not much. My point was, that AOPA should not opppose every new regulation that comes out. There needs to be a balance; otherwise, AOPA will start to get a radical reputation. In the grand scheme of things, this is a minor inconvenience at best... not a big deal.

[B Sousa]

RD
Maybe the hidden point is that some of the Pinheads in TSA that are making these rules have no clue as to Aviation. Most all the top management at TSA are retired FEDs from everything to include the Forest Service and the Food and Drug Administration. If you think its not the "Good Old Boys Network" at work you are mistaken.
Somebody has to challenge them from the Aviation side with a working knowledge of whats going on. Im hoping some of my 35 years of dues with AOPA will be used to get in someones face over some things that TSA are doing.
Too many "Minor Inconveniences" out there today. Some here will say its all in the name of security. B:mad: ,its mostly in the name of Political Correctness. You want to stop A:mad: from coming into the U.S., you can. If some are offended for profiling, stay home.

[helipat]

"Most train under Part 61 "

Yes, but this regulation does apply to part 61 either.

If you want to come for a few days in the States (for holliday or work), you will not be able anymore to fly even one hour with an instructor...

If you really want to do it, you will have to pay a month before $130 to the TSA, to be fingerprinted (with some more fee) even if it's already done for your visa, to know exactly where you will fly during your holliday (and not going to any airport to find a local school to enjoy the place where you are). This school will probably also refuse to fly with you as they will not take any chance to do any mistake with this silly regulation.

If you are a foreign pilot, even a legal permanent resident, you will not able to do any BFR before paying $130, be fingerprinted again (even if it's already on your immigration files). You will also have to plan it a month before to be able to fill out all the requiered information. If a few days later you want to add a new rating to your licence, you will have to it again (and of course pay the fee again).

You're really sure that this will have no impact on the US flight schools. Tell me, what's the ratio of foreign student in flight school in the US? What do you think will happend when 20% or 40% of these foreign students will prefer to choose another country ? Of course you will have 60% to 80% of them who will continue to come, but even them will not do as much training as what they were doing before.

I'm please that AOPA is fighting for us. And I'm really concerned that some of you are so blindfolded not to see the implication for our jobs.

I fully agree that security should be enforced, but use effective way to do it, not 'protect your ass bull****' that will damage the industry.

[Rotorbee]

If I understand that right, all the time I need a CFI a need to do this.

That's probaply it for flying in the US for me.

Want to do a Safety Course at RHC? Pay 130$
Want to do a BFR? Pay 130$
Want to do Taildragger endorsement? Pay 130$
Not to mention all the hassle I would have with the paperwork.

I had a wishlist of trainings I wanted to do. Bell School and some other things for my safety and because it is fun to learn new things. I also wanted to go to Alaska for holidays with my family and show them the best flying country from the air. I think I can forget this for the next few years.

AOPA does only fight for the US-Citizens, not for all the aliens who happen to have a US license. And a lot of pilots I know will not go there anymore.

I really liked to go over there once in while and enjoy the freedom of GA.

It is really sad and I think this administration is not fair. It wants, that our soldiers got to Iraq but treat the citizens from the same contries like potential criminals. At the same time they allow that semi automatic guns can be sold again.
Their logic is funny, but it is all about political correctness. Pick on those who have no lobby.

New Zealand must be a nice place to fly, too. Or Canada.

[Buitenzorg]

RDRickster, you've made clear your views on any foreigner flying in the USA before. Also, I suspect that not many foreign students have previously opted for training in Maryland, so to you it may not look like a big thing. Believe me, to many people I know it will be.

If you looked around Florida and California, which have the highest density of flight schools in the country, you'd immediately realize that this ruling, as proposed, will really hurt the flight training business. Many schools teach far more foreign students than US citizens.

The low cost of training in the USA has indeed always been a strong selling point, but what has also been strongly in its favour has been the absence of red tape and hassle. The TSA is now proposing to change that, as well as adding slightly to the cost, and it will hurt. Japanese students, previously in CA by the thousands, will probably start opting for Autralia, and Europeans will take a closer look at Canada and South Africa. Good news for flight training organizations in those countries.

Most helicopter training, due to the cost of helicopter flying, is for professional trainees. Many of these will have put a lot of planning into their training, picking a school etc., and for them this will probably be a one-time thing and not much hardship. But an awful lot of fixed-wing training is for pleasure, and once these students have a PPL, they'll likely want to visit and fly in other parts of the country. Hey presto, you need a check-out at any FBO with an instructor, that's flight training so there goes another $130 and a ream of forms. Fixed-wing flight schools, especially the smaller ones catering to pleasure flyers, will take it in the teeth.

If the TSA had put a little sense into this proposal, they could have made it, for instance, a once-every-five-years thing. The foreign student would apply to TSA for a "flight training clearance", and could then take and show his clearance at any flight school or FBO he would want to visit. Why has the rule been put in its present form? Probably Bert's views are close to the truth.

[RDRickster]

Buitenzorg,RDRickster, you've made clear your views on any foreigner flying in the USA before Really? When did I do that? Regarding foreign pilots in the USA, I don't recall having an opinion for or against, let alone voicing an opinion either way. In fact, I've had the pleasure of flying a B47G2 with Flying Lawyer in the Shenandoah Valley and meeting with The Nr Fairy from this forum. So, please don't put words into my mouth.

Now, as far as your other comments and those who've posted earlier... you raise some valid points. I believe there is a public comment period for the TSA proposal, and this discussion may provide new insights for consideration. That said, I think that the goal of the TSA in this matter is a prudent course of action. Granted, most of the things the TSA implements in the name of security is purely window dressing for public consumption. However, the intent of this rule is something that should have been acted on years ago. As far as a common sense procedure that works, like a one-time check, will likely take time. That doesn't mean the overall objective is a bad idea.

[Buitenzorg]

RDRickster, my most humble apologies. I :mad: up in a very bad way. Just found the thread to which I was referring and which I didn't check before posting, and the person lambasting foreigners training/flying in the USA wasn't you at all. I'm very sorry to have made such a snotty remark about you. Mea maxima culpa.

About the new rule, of course it's objective is laudable: to prevent terrorists etc. from receiving flight training which could be used not only against the USA but also against anybody these people don't like. But why does it have to be such a burden? Is it because GA people tend to be responsible and law-abiding, and therefore it's easy to impose new restrictions on them? Would the Teamsters take it quietly if rules as disruptive as this were imposed on interstate trucking because of "credible intelligence"?

The implied message with these new rules is that "9/11 wouldn't have happened if these rules had been in force then". I don't believe that any of these rules would have woken up the security and intelligence agencies that were firmly asleep at the switch up to that date. Nor made them listen to the few alert people voicing concerns to deaf ears.

9/11 was a security and intelligence disaster. And to date, I don't believe anybody has even been fired over it. These officials appear to be bulletproof. And that makes me sceptical about how much they consider the impact of any of their actions on others.

[helipat]

I found quite funny also that when you call different FAA offices to ask about this TSA rules (specialy the CFI registration), they seems to discover it and are really scared by it. They don't know how they will be able to implement it...

[Robbo Jock]

This strikes me as firmly in the class of 'lets be seen to be doing something'. Proposed by someone who seems to believe that the only place in the world where you can learn to fly is the US. People can learn to fly anywhere and, having learnt, the skills are transportable. So Johnny Terrorist could quite easily train in South Africa, hop on a 747 to America, get a connecting flight and then take over the Flight Deck and away he goes into the wide blue yonder. How is the new rule going to stop that happening ? Even better, I've just noticed that our Terrorist can train on aircraft over 12,500 lbs without having to jump through this hoop, so he can learn anywhere he likes, go to the States to learn to fly the big stuff without anyone taking any notice, then grab himself an airliner and he's off.

Notice the important bit is to stop him grabbing the airliner, 'cos you sure as Hell ain't going to stop him training.

[moosp]

From my own experience this will affect training organisations in the States. Several airline pilots I know, like myself, like to rent a helicopter with or without instructor on layovers in the US. Then on vacation we rent for a week and go flying in free airspace over beautiful country. I have spent over $20,000 in your schools, but it is unlikely that I shall spend more.

Also for conversions (endorsements) we like to come to the US for good factory courses. I was planning to come to Dallas next year to do one - but it looks like it will require too much intrusion and personal inconvenience.

It is sad that TSA are out of control wielding absolute power in ways that do not improve security. Their control will only grow worse and drive overseas students away, as they are already doing to the universities and colleges that have seen their foreign applicants numbers fall away.

:(

[Disguise Delimit]

Is this going to affect simulator refresher courses? Is the annual trek to FSI at West Palm Beach part of all this, or does it not apply if you don't actually get in a real aircraft???:confused:

[helipat]

"Is this going to affect simulator refresher courses?"

I wouldn't be surprised by it.. It's a formal endorsment made by a CFI on your logbook, then now you will probably need every single time:
- a $350 student visa (M1 or J1) with fingerprint and all
- a $130 TSA recurent training authorisation with fingerprint and background check..

Do you think that they are reactive enough to be able to do do instrument recurent training every six months ?
Or should I apply two sessions in advance ? :bored:

[Rotorbee]

Is this going to affect simulator refresher courses? Is the annual trek to FSI at West Palm Beach part of all this, or does it not apply if you don't actually get in a real aircraft???

I would think it does apply. You learn to fly there.


Notice the important bit is to stop him grabbing the airliner, 'cos you sure as Hell ain't going to stop him training.

Right on. But that is not the logic of this administration.

I wonder when they are going to stop giving J1 Visas or the CFI will be for US citizens only. All those aliens that work as flight instructors or pilots will probably be the next target.

This new rule is useless but it does give voters the impression that something is donne.

The problem is, that this administration has no clue how to deal with terrorism. Not like the uk and other contries.