British engineering for the military

[joe2812]

As a project for college I need to know about the reputation of the British engineering military products, both for themselves and joint ventures such as the F-35 and the Typhoon (cash flow problems aside!).

I was under the impression that the reputation for British engineering was dwindling? However I cant find any site that reflects (unbiasedly) the reputation of us lot.

Is anyone in the military and/or civil area of engineering (especially aerospace systems) and can offer any insights?

Thanks in advance,

[emitex]

aaaaaaaaaaaaand cue Beagle!

[BigGrecian]

I was under the impression that the reputation for British engineering was dwindling?
Blame BAE Sytems, they have habit of going massivily over budget and running late on most, no hang on, all of their projects.

[BEagle]

"Nay, lad" quoth 't Bungling Baron Waste-o-Space. "There's now't wrong wi' owerr reputation, tha' knows. Allus projects has been on time, on budget. Well, on ma' time and budget, that is, not them soft London boogerrs in't MoD box's"

Wiping tears of laughter from his old eyes, 't Baron merrily tucked in to yet another portion of tail and testicle tart whilst Boogeroff, his trusty yet flatlent whippet, snored and farted quietly in front of 't fire.

[emitex]

Soon to be a mini-series on ITV...

[Art Field]

Possibly the problem is not so much British engineering as British Management. Why, for instance did nobody consider that each Nimrod might be different from its brothers when airframe modifications were being made. BWOS should have remembered that the simular era Victors were all different. So many projects seem to amble on, getting deeper in trouble, before anyone gets a grip. Someone gets the sack plus big payoff and the cycle starts over again.

[Echo 5]

Art,

" Possibly the problem is not so much British engineering as British Management. "

You could also add German and Italian management. The jury is still out on the Spanish but time will tell.

[BEagle]

Well, the handover of the A310 MRTT to the GAF/CF takes place next week in Dresden.

How goes the Nimrod Y2K?

Or the KC-767A??

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Blame the managers. UK industry has good Engineers, Scientists etc, but a lot of bad managers. A lot of the problem is that many managers do not have any qualifications, training or prior experience in relevent fields. Thus....

a) They become bean counters - and focus on short term savings whilst not seeing the big picture.
b) They lack an "Engineer's feel" for things - by which I mean they are unable to tell if things are wrong unless its put into statistics and simplistic numbers for them.
c) They try to look at it from an arty farty perspective (see below).

I was shocked a few years ago when I stumbled across the details of some media studies type who was being employed by the DPA on FCBA (as it was back in those days). Exactly how was he considered qualified?

Every procurement horror story seems to be the same - bad management by the contractors , bad management by the Services/MOD, and political goalpost moving. And penny pinching.

[KPax]

I am all for buying British, only if what they are offering is the right and BEST kit for the job. If things had been done on this basis would we have had, F3, Merlin, Nimrod MRA4. I suspect not. To give our guys the best chance in theatre we need the best kit, not the best British kit.

[left one o clock]

'Project for college'
I smell a journo.

[My T Hunter]

If your nose is right he's a pretty lazy journo, I think there would be plenty of comments in the archive which make peoples' views fairly plain.

[Wigan Warrior]

The vast majority of people (as can be seen from the responses you have had so far) don't fully understand the complexities of design, development and production of state-of-the-art military products. The complex negotiations that are involved over sensitive areas such as sensor performance take time and are not resolved easily.
Listen to them and contribute to the demise of British Industry… you can finish your college project and get a job - ABROAD.
You want to know about the quality of British engineering (military products, as this is a military forum):
Vulcan, Hawk, Harrier, Tornado, Typhoon to name but a few.
Quality products.
As for the over budget / late comments, anyone in the know will tell you that every long-term complex military project is inherently susceptible to time and cost increases:
Grippen, Rafale, YF-22 and F-117 to name but a few (recent programmes) which have slipped and gone over budget.
The British lead the world in pioneering technology for: ejection seats, fly-by-wire flight controls, composites and manufacturing, helmet mounted displays, sensor fusion and much more.
Why do people want to rubbish our Nations achievements?
There is a huge difference between military and civil programmes.
How long does the radar and datalink flight test programme take on an A320?
Flight-testing takes a long time from first flight to delivery into service on military products, there is no escaping this and it is more often than not due to the constraints imposed by the aircraft owners (the Government).
In the main, the British produce quality products, we always have. That isn’t to say there is no room for improvement, there is, and always will be.
Unless we continue to invest, we will lose the incentive and the industry will fold.
We then become reliant on buying our defence products from abroad. Think of all the taxpayers money being spent abroad on defence products, what would that do to our national economy?

[BEagle]

Eh oop! Tis' 't Bungling Baron in perrson or I'll go to the foot of ower' stairrs? How ist' tha'? Gerrin' on champion wi' 't owd' Comet Mark 7 ist' tha'?

Bit late to be still at work for tha' terrday, isn't it?

[Wigan Warrior]

Poor Bungle, he doesn’t know much about the world of industry and commerce, he never has any answers, he just moans and moans and moans.
Ahh the Comet :D been flying for over 50 years – now that’s quality British engineering Joe :ok:
A fine example for your project… I’m sure Bungle can tell you all about its pedigree – I only now about pedigree beer and chum (the whippets love it).

[John Farley]

The vast majority of people don't fully understand the complexities of design, development and production of state-of-the-art military products. The complex negotiations that are involved over sensitive areas such as sensor performance take time and are not resolved easily.

You want to know about the quality of British engineering (military products, as this is a military forum):

Vulcan, Hawk, Harrier, Typhoon to name but a few. Quality products.

As for the over budget / late comments, anyone in the know will tell you that every long-term complex military project is inherently susceptible to time and cost increases:

Grippen, Rafale, YF-22 to name but a few (recent programmes) which have slipped and gone over budget.

The British lead the world in pioneering technology for: ejection seats, fly-by-wire flight controls, composites and manufacturing, helmet mounted displays, sensor fusion and much more.
Why do people want to rubbish our Nations achievements?

There is a huge difference between military and civil programmes.
How long does the radar and datalink flight test programme take on an A320?

Flight-testing takes a long time from first flight to delivery into service on military products, there is no escaping this and it is more often than not due to the constraints imposed by the aircraft owners (the Government).


..........sorry but all that needed repeating......................

And it needs saying that the best performing airliner wings in the world to date are all British.

And we have not even mentioned Rolls-Royce technology. If you want an example to quote of R-R dominance in their global industry look no further than the facts behind the HPT blades of the Trent family.

[Gainesy]

Another jewel in the crown is Martin-Baker. Ask them what their world-wide market share is for ejection seats.

[Tarnished]

Wise Words Wigan Warrior.

Well said.

A personal observation not yet made in this thread is that the customer does not help himself in the procurement process, by posting guys in and out on a short timescale when compared to the life of the project. Sure some guys come back to the same project at the next rank, but by then they are working on a whole different level. For example a Sqn Ldr RM, subject matter expert on sensors or some such thing, returns 3 years later as a Wg Cdr but now is dealing with budgets and contracts.

No real answer to offer other than to say that the requirements capture, specification writing and design process need to have current input from the eventual end users. The end users rarely have any idea whatsoever about contracts and specifications.

BEagle, despite your repeated condemnations the chaps and chapesses employed by "Baron" actually do a damn fine job in difficult circumstances. The same issues are present in any large project. If it was easy everyone would be at it, but its not and only the best survive.

T

T

[just noise]

Wigan Warrier,

Do not rise to the bait of this ex-spurt. Beagle often produces similar drivel when industry is mentioned. It amuses some, but then little things…..

I think John Farley has made the point, WHO BUILDS THE WINGS FOR YOUR BELOVED AIRBUS!!!!!!!

In addition who builds a large number of the avionic systems for Airbus. (but don’t let the facts cloud a bit of a slagging).

I think the INFORMED person realises that design, development, manufacture and production is complex. It involves a number of interested parties all pushing for their own wishes. Often these become clouded by the need for Blue Suits to make their mark and get promoted.

In reply to the original post, British Engineering is running down, due to a lack of funding for R&D. Recently, it was stated to Unions that only two things were sacrosanct to British technology – Crytos and Nukes.

Therefore, on this basis, Thales, Boeing, Lockheed and others will benefit.

The fact that UK PLC still has a golden share in BAE SYSTEMS, should mean that work is kept in Country. That’s what the French, Germans and Yanks do.

It has to be remembered that no PLC does anything for charity, therefore the profit margins are key. Problem is, the profits are capped (MoD rules), and therefore no matter how hard you work, you can only make a fixed margin. Therefore where is the incentive?

I do agree that poor management does not help when you have talented workers. You will not, however, get the best managers if you cannot pay the best wages, because your profits are capped.

As for Martin-Baker, well if you don’t invest in R&D, no one will develop seats for free. Go ahead buy seats from someone else, and see what happens when you pull the handle in an emergency. It is easy to be critical of costs, but when you want something to work first time/every time it will cost. Who is it that specifies MB seats as GFE for UK fast jets – NOT INDUSTRY.

Beags, I have tried to use simple words so that you can keep up.

[Art Field]

If you read most of the critical comments you will find little concern for the quality of engineering, indeed I have had the pleasure of helping to sell some of it internationally, once even alongside Beags. And who made our job most difficult, the management of a now large aerospace company who did not even know how their kit worked. On another occasion a company totally failed to respond to a serious equipment query from NASA, I still maintain its not our engineers who let the side down but management whose interest is more in self rather than product promotion and all too often have an overconfidence in their understanding of the task. Could it be that the accountant should go back to his books and the engineer be given the reigns back?.

[BEagle]

Oh dear oh dear. Can't tell talk from banter? Cheeeeel, Winston!

Of course Brutish industry has spawned excellent inventions and products in the past (Harrier, for example) - but it doesn't have an assumed place in the market without clear proof that its products meet either the specification or affordabilty criteria.

Couldn't agree more that procurement weenies often hide behind IWHIMTS (It Won't Happen In My Tour Syndrome) rather than being told that they're stuck with their project until they see it through to delivery. But then again, having just checked my diary for not that many years ago, I see that ISD for FSTA should have been achieved in 2004. But now it's going to be what - 2013......?

How is industry ever to cope with procurement-prattishness like that without having to mark up its products to a considerable degree to see it through the lean years of MoD vacillation, delay and obfuscation?

Pedigree Chum? No thanks - Lassie Meaty Chunks are preferred. Ask any Lancastrian B&B landlady!

Tha' knows..:E

[allan907]

I have a little notice on the back of my 1998 Landrover Defender....

The parts dropping off this vehicle are quality British-made parts!

[Wigan Warrior]

Thanks JN, there are many wind-up merchants about and I shouldn’t have got involved.
The reason I did? I wanted to offer assistance to Joe.
I like to see initiative in students and I am happy to help as much as I can.
The problem Joe has, is that he asks for help and gets a bunch of :mad: feeding him diatribe and, as an impressionable student, he may think that the some people offering their (rubbish) views on this topic actually know what they are talking about.

On a personal note, I am sick of the whingers and moaners that plague our nation, constantly complaining about most everything yet they have no answers or gumption to address the issues.

Rant over 4 final points from me:

1. My Dad is Professor of everything at NASA and says that British engineering is the best in the world.
2. Lassie meaty chunks make my whippets fart too much.
3. I also had a car I never looked after and it fell to bits – rusty vorsprungs all over der place.
4. Sorry Joe, you wanted help and suffered this lot.

[emitex]

its not our engineers who let the side down but management whose interest is more in self rather than product promotion and all too often have an overconfidence in their understanding of the task. Could it be that the accountant should go back to his books and the engineer be given the reigns back?.

Yes, a cultural thing - put any old tw*t in a dark suit , give him a Lexus and he thinks he knows it all...

[BEagle]

OK - cars then. I've only owned 2 British ones, both MG Midgets. Rusted like crazy, carbs forever went out of balance and the build quality was appalling....they leaked like sieves. Then had an Italian one - that rusted as well but I actually made £50 over 12 months when I sold it. Then had a Manta, 2 Sciroccos, another 2 Mantas, 2 Preludes and now a Merc. Sorry, British engineering, but when a salesman once asked me (as I filled up my Scirrocco) "Had you considered the MG Maestro" I burst into fits of laughter. That was around the time that British Leyland came out with a square steering wheel for the awful Allegro...

Hifi &Electricals? Bush or Bang & Olufsen? No contest really - my B&O is still going strong about 25 years since I bought it.

Cameras? Canon, Olympus or.......what?

What actually is made in Britain these days rather than assembled from imported components? OK - self destructing cars like TVRs, I suppose......

Aston Martin? Not really. Now Jaguar is going to leave Browns Lane? Why - because its designs have insufficient appeal. Probably well made, but neither the X nor the S has much charisma. Even the XK-R has now been made ugly!

Our greatest designers have often been frustrated by poor marketing and managemnt, as Art Field commented. And as for so-called salesmen with poor product knowledge......

And why are all the current generation of Made-for-Britain DVB radio receivers so $odding ugly?

I've just been looking around my house and garage for anything Made In Britain. Have come up with 3 items:

1. Flymo lawnmower. Some clever engineering features - well done!

2. Real flame gas fire. Made by a company which then went bust......

3. The garage door. Hopefully not made by a helicopter builder from Somerset!

..and frankly that's it.

AL1. Bugger - have just discovered that the garage door was indeed built in the land of scrumpy. So it'll probably stop working in a year or so's time!

[Jackonicko]

British engineering's down, but not out.

Triumph still (again) make the World's best motorcycles, thanks to John Bloor.
Swindon's Hondas are superbly made.
Cowley can't make BMW Mini Coopers fast enough.
Lotus are still the ride/handling gurus for the motor industry, and the Elise is a superb little car.
Even Vauxhall still have a few great products, some of which are 'Made in England'. My wife's Tigra is better designed and better engineered than my Audi.
The retro LEC fridge in my kitchen is better than a SMEG at half the price.
Bush still make great radios, and make them in England, and I believe some Roberts radios are still made here. (If you want a nice looking DAB, BEagle, how about the digital version of the Roberts Revival?).

Aerospace is more difficult. BAE have some excellent engineers, but have no real imperative to offer competitive prices, nor to deliver on time, because they have no real competition. You have a monopoly supplier who are also a fully commercial company, for whom maximising shareholder value is more important than meeting their customers needs. With other UK defence suppliers to compete with, it might work, but as a monopoly supplier it would work better nationalised - removing the profit/shareholder motive and focusing effort on providing the right kit to the customer on spec and on time.

Free market economics only work in a competitive free market.

[KM-H]

Damn it emitex, now I've got to wipe coffee off the monitor screen and people wonder why I'm choking in my hamster pen.

He paid cash don't you know?

[emitex]

Coz he can!

But it's not uncommon is it? There's a factory somewhere in England churning out arrogant, insensitive f*kwits who end up in plum jobs.

Now there's a British success story.:ok:

[mbga9pgf]

Not disagreeing with those in support of British industry, but I also would not necessarily shout too loudly about the Comet as an example of spectacular British design, especially with those large square windows it had...

JF, I completely agree that BAe get much stick as a result of those individuals who solely wish to remember BAe's foul ups; it is just as much the fault of those idiots who chose to let Italy, a country with very little experience of fbw design the system for Typhoon, at extorsionate cost. As a world leader in FBW system development at that time (and possibly still now), why did we allow Italy to develop such a critical system? Oh yes, got to give everyone a fair share of course!

[John Farley]

mbga9pgf

I take your point, but I believe it was Germany that had the FBW in the original carve up of work (and hence on the job training...)

One has to admire the national military/industrial/political strategy of the French during the 80s and 90s when they said they would do it and pay for it all themselves. Subs, Carriers, Aircraft, Weapons - the lot. Not to mention making Airbus happen.

JF

[Tarnished]

Last time I looked, FCS design responsibility for Typhoon was resident in EADS-D (Dasa as was) with a high level of BAE support. All part of the politics and gamesmanship that resulted from workshare based on procurement numbers.

What Italian bit of FBW were you concerned about?

T

Edited to say:

I see I missed being original by 5 minutes - story of my life!

[mbga9pgf]

My point was not over any personal particular concern over the FCS; I solely wished to point out that some projects have, at times, been shafted before pen has been put to paper. A rational design principle would result in those nations with specialist knowledge of a particular system designing that system, as opposed to the usual wranglings over "well, we could do with knowing how to build that bit, so lets give us a go".

As JF says, the French have done it in style and solo; designing next generation fighters, ships and a solid aircraft industry, in direct competition with Boeing - I have to say it is easy to bash a company for producing goods which take ages to reach full capability; yet without proper political backing (and im not talking about a few bob here and there to keep the workforce happy), our aircraft and more importantly aircraft systems industry is increasingly likely to go further down the toilet. If you want an example of true British multi-national aerospace engineering working togher look at MBDA... ASRAAM and Stormshadow; fantastic systems that, as I am led to believe, were designed and built mainly within our shores. Far more capable I would argue than their US counterparts. We are capable of it, but not while this government shys away from what is required.

[Sunfish]

"British Management" is an oxymoron.

Had one a while ago paid over $250,000 per annum who said "OK chaps, my management style is suck it and see. If one thing doesn't work I'll try something else".

Normally for $250,000 you actually have to know how to manage.

British engineeers are great - witness the Range Rover, however British Management then sat on its hands for 20 years while the rest of the world caught up. They did the same with the mini.

[Tarnished]

Must inject a slight word of caution on the "French did it alone" idea.

I think it more correct to say that they know what they want to do with their wonder jet to make it comparable withTyphoon if they can get an export customer to foot the bill.

To integrate all these system of systems and certify them to internationally agreed standards is a huge and expensive task. Sure you can do it on the cheap but not if "product liability" and "duty of care" are part of your culture and vocabulary.

Furthermore, achieving this with "acceptable pilot workload" adds another dimension altogether.

Trust me I know

T