This is what CASA thinks. What about you?

[the wizard of auz]

this is what CASA thinks will solve the problem of under recording of time. I would have thought it was an incentive to do it more than what was being done.
700hrs x the going rate for mustering = a bunch of dollars and incentive to do the wrong thing.
And is there real proof that the mustering pilots will abuse their blades worse than students stuffing up manouvers on a regular basis?.
Interesting reading I thought. what do you reckon? (http://rrp.casa.gov.au/ris/ris0320.pdf)

[Col]

CASA strikes again!

[TinKicker]

Have a look at the date on the front page.....

21 August 2003. Just a bit over a year old.

This RIS came out following the changes to the AD that covers the R22 rotor blades. There was about 6-7 changes to the AD last year following the accident near Camden. Apparently some of the mustering crowd made noises to the hill and CASA found out that because of the change to the AD there would be an impact on the industry.

Part of CASA's requirements is to ensure that this is taken into account. When it was found out that there was none of this done, they hurriedly issued this RIS.

Another interesting word from the cover is RETROSPECTIVE. Happened after the fact.......

[rotaryman]

I really have no time for most of the Dickheads employed by CASA so i am not defending them, But!! i think you really have to question the Mustering Industry that has caused the problem in the first place by under recording of Hours etc....:E

[the wizard of auz]

HMMM, I don't think the whole industry is to blame, just a few within it. as with all industries, theres alway a couple of nongs amongst them. who's to say it wasn't hours under recorded by the training industry that caused the failure?. and what penalties/safty margin was imposed on that industry to help eleviate the problem. who did the study that determined that mustering was harder on the blades than say, training?. I know I did a few things with blades that I wouldn't do now, like overspeeding and over tourqueing, whilst I was learning to drive the little beast.

[4ero]

Any :mad: :mad: found not recording hours should be hung.

Although there is nothing to say a school would not over time a machine. I feel the commercial pressures and visiblity of these organsiations makes it far less likely to happen there than mustering.

Penalising the whole industry is absurd, but unless the cheating murderers are outed it'll continue to happen.

It seems to me that CASA are unable to do anything proactive in preventing it happening. They know who these people are but throw it straight in the too hard box.

It's much easier to sit in Canberra picking your ring, and developing blanket policy to cover your own jacksy.

Reducing time life by a third surely just increases cheating by a third.

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[the wizard of auz]

4ero, that about sums up what I think as well.
I reckon that the training industry would be less prone to doing it though because they are a bit more visible.
But what sort of effect would bouncing a chopper on the ground with the rotors overtorqued during a "to the ground" auto and overspeeding during a turn in a badly exicuted auto, all on a daily basis, have on the rotors?. Surly thats going to be harder on the blades than the odd steep turn during mustering operations.

[rotaryman]

G-day Guys,,yea i agree in part!!

Firstly i think flying schools have to much of a paper trail and as the Wizard says they are to visable...

I really dont believe for one minute that Mustering places anymore stress on a Machine than does Flight Training...The problem is we don;t always know the History of a machine before we fly it!!

I once flew a R22 with over 5,000hrs - the Maint release said it had 60 hours left to run!! I didn;t know its history, and was not a happy guy when i found out......................................................... ..

If CASA were serious about Aviation safety they would spend some money on conducting a serious investigation into under recording of hours,,,,,,Theres always always a paper trail.....

All this other Bull**** is just smoke and mirrors..:ok:

[belly tank]

It was interesting to note that the effects of the AD would cause some operators to loose out on 300 hrs work and about $10 grand due to the grounding,.....but what about the money that was made up in the process of under recording hours, would this par with the 10 grand loss!!!

My two cents worth....and yes i agree not all mustering outfits are to blame only a handfull as in many industrys

[the wizard of auz]

that works out at about $33.00per hour. now if we work that out on the 700hrs that are being dropped from the MR life that works out to being $23331.00 thats being missed out on. where do they get their figures from?. If their talking about just the blade cost, I figure at AUD$55ooo a set, divided by 2200hrs, works out to about $25 per hour. now multiply that by the 300 hrs they were talking about, works into about $7500.
I think the going rate for a R22 is close to $320ph, dry. x that by 300hrs = $96000. working on that theory, the seven hundred hours that is being removed from the blades will cost close to $224000 in lost production. now if we take the $55000 that the new set costs, from that figure, it still leaves $169000 thats removed from the equation. or just on the blades at $25.00ph x 700hrs = $17500. thats about the profit margin for the last 6 months gone. :oh:

[RobboRider]

I've been away for a week or so so I missed whatever event has led up to this thread cropping again.

But what I'm missing is: The pdf file the link goes to is in relation to AD ammendments 6 & 7. Since then we are up to
?I think ammendment 10. Each time an ammendment comes out it has nullified the previous ammendment so isn't this debate now about ancient history. The linked article no longer applies.

I vaguely recall the latest ammendments being better - though I don't have them to hand to check.

But anyway my point still stands - this debate seems to be about a problem that no longer exists.

But I might have missed something, I guess.

[rotaryman]

Robborider:

So what are you saying! that we no longer have a problem with Operators under recording of Hours Flown???????????????????

I believe the situation is still very much an issue and pilots are still dieing because of Blade failures due in part to under recording of hours.

Below is a Quote from your own webb site LOL:)

(Avoid ex-mustering machines though.they have a record of having been worked hard and often not all the hours logged and Hobbs meters disconnected)



:ooh: :ooh: :ooh:

[belly tank]

We are seeing it in new machines like the 120, etc where time recording is virtually tamper proof....its about time CASA made some easy decisions and made time recording devices mandatory in all helicopters and ones that cannot be tampered with. also....im aware of many many helicopters especially BELL types where there isnt any hour meters at all and rely on the operators honesty ( yeah right!!) to log hours on the MR.

come on CASA DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS PROBLEM

[RobboRider]

Rotaryman
So what are you saying! that we no longer have a problem with Operators under recording of Hours Flown???????????????????

No, sorry, as I said I wasn't sure what the point was of the thread. I interpreted the intitial posting to be about the content of the CASA article, as it posted a link to that article which is - as I said - now not valid or legal as it applies to ammendments 6 and 7 which are obsolete. Its pedantic I know but the article can't be a problem if it no longer applicable to an ammendment.

I agree with you that the problem of under-recording of machine hours is probably still going on.

But the initial post said basically we have a problem - It is this article and the information contained within it. My response was we don't have a problem with that article - it has been superceded.

[rotaryman]

..... Yea I guess Next time Robborider,
you might like to take the time to read the entire post and see were its at before you post..

The sooner CASA get serious about safety the better for all of us.

Safe Flying..:ok:

[the wizard of auz]

It was more aimed at the attitude of the CASA, and the reasons they were giving for doing what they were doing. The amendments aint all that different now to what they were.....just a little more refined.
put out there for others to voice their opinion about the bigger picture.
Yup, your right. A bit pedantic. :8