Eastern Airways

[circseam]

It seems the ER145 is being phased out, does this mean an end to their "Jet Service" but I also understand that they have procured (rather than sub leased from the ex-fleet of Bral)another J.41, can anyone confirm?

How are they performing against BMi regional or have they kissed and made up and settled their differences not drive one another out of business?

Is Finningley a possible new base for Eastern?

Circseam

[Flightrider]

Hadn't heard anything about the 145s, but I had heard that they were acquiring Sun-Air of Scandinavia's two J41s. Sun-Air have taken on a load of Dornier 328s to re-equip and rumour had it that their two J41s (which are immaculate) had been sold to Eastern.

And PS - wouldn't have thought Finningley would figure. I think Eastern has quite enough bases to be getting along with - my calculations make it nine (HUY MME EMA LBA NCL NWI ABZ IOM INV) and I thought they were trying to reduce this slightly rather than keep opening new bases at every airport throughout the land.

[aeulad]

Any chance of expansion from their HOME BASE Humberside??

Why havent they started flights to Brussels from HUY? The route has always been profitable, and it is a 90% business market, which would fit in well with the high fares that Eastern charges.

Regards

Mike

[Oshkosh George]

From another site,Eastern now have TWO replacement ERJ145s!

SE-LOM now in Eastern titles ,and
SE-DZA to become G-CCYH,which left Southend on Friday(17th) in FULL colours.

Also added G-MAJN J41 ex OY-SVS,nothing on the other one.

Credit to Tony Kirkbright


(edited to spell Tony's name correctly!)

Apologies for inaccuracies in previous post--

SE-LOM(035, ex HB-IZS) is a Saab 2000 leased to cover maintenance on SE-LOX(009,ex HB-IZF) Saab 2000 already in service.

Therefore back to ONE ERJ145!

Could someone tell me which route the Saab is operating?

[Jump Airlines]

The Saab 2000 operates the Norwich to Aberdeen route after they removed the ERJ to fly Aberdeen to Southampton.

[mmeteesside]

The Saab 2000 operates the Norwich to Aberdeen route after they removed the ERJ to fly Aberdeen to Southampton

The Saab 2000 flys ABZ-NCL-SOU

mmeteesside
MME Movements (http://www.mmemovements.tk)

[10 DME ARC]

At present the E145 fly's ABZ-NCL-SOU, took over from the S2000 beginning of summer. S2000 doing ABZ-NWI.

However rumour has it the 2000 coming back on the route this winter!:)

[mmeteesside]

Oops, I meant to say E145 :) Silly me :O

MME Movements (http://www.mmemovements.tk)

[kirstys_little_man]

They currently operate E145 GCCLD & SEDZA (to be GCCYH) is currently awaiting delivery at Southend

KLM

[Hotel Uniform Yankee]

There is a strong rumour going around Humberside that rescently an Eastern Airways Captain has been demoted for leaving EDI with insufficient fuel. Has anyone any furthur details.

The topic is alleged phasing out of the ER145 and Eastern's performance against BMi. Please keep it on track. Thanks
H

[ecj]

When you say "insufficient" fuel, do you mean less than what was required on the PLOG/fuel plan

OR

Not enough extra fuel for the conditions which might reasonably be expected - be that weather, traffic etc etc?
:ooh:

[Hotel Uniform Yankee]

Because he has been demoted, I think it is worse then that. Along the lines of, thought he had been refuelled, but hadn't.

[ecj]

And the fate of the FO in this alleged incident?
:confused:

[niknak]

The SAAB replaced the E145 at NWI because they could'nt get all the freight, baggage and pax on the same a/c, the E145 was a very nice a/c to have on the route, but for the sake of 15 min's flying time, they get a lot more out of the route.
Don't know about elsewhere, but at NWI, they seem to have "come to an agreement" with BMI, both operate at different times - sufficiantly apart to meet demand - and both charge almost exactly the same price, still extortianate, but the demand exists.

Expansion from HUY - I don't think it will ever happen.
HUY has a very small passenger catchment area for scheduled flights, because it is so well served by road and rail networks, and will suffer even more when Finningly opens.

AEULAD, I don't know where you get your info from, but any attempts to operate from HUY to BRU have always been a complete failure, precisely because of lack of demand.
From Humberside's nearest railway station, you can get to London in under 2 hours, then to central Brussels in another 1hr45mins, at a return 1st class fare of under £200.
Whilst that is a 3 and 3/4 hour trip, compare it with a similar amount of time to travel to HUY airport, check in 45mins before, wait for the aeroplane, possible delays due tech/wx/etc, 1hr 30min flight, wait at BRU for baggage (30mins), taxi or bus to centre of BRU - another 45 mins.
Roughly the same time for an air fare of at least £300.

[aeulad]

I am not on here to argue, but I have my sources, and if you have your own opinion, then that is fine, of course you are correct, how could I have been SO stupid:rolleyes:

Regards

Mike

[Nice Jam]

From Humberside's nearest railway station, you can get to London in under 2 hours, then to central Brussels in another 1hr45mins, at a return 1st class fare of under £200.

Oh really?

Barnetby - Doncaster: 55 mins
Wait: ?
Doncaster - Kings X : 1 hr 46 mins

Or, if you prefer

Barnetby - Newark: 58 mins
Wait: ?
Newark - Kings X: 1 hr 38 mins

Any reasonable waiting period puts both routes over 3 hours, by my arithmetic. And how does one get to Brussels from Kings X? The Eurostar? That'll be a lovely trip across London on the underground then, and another wait at Waterloo.

[circseam]

When I started this thread I had not realised it would turn into a train v aircraft thread.

Understand where aeulad is comming from, HUY has in the past had more routes than are currently available, I know from first hand information that HUY to Esbjerg was the most profitable for Genair / Eastern Mk I (compared to all other routes they operated in 1983/84) and would presume the old Air Anglia / Eastern / Air UK HUY to Heathrow was profitable.

But I also agree with other postings that HUY just doesnt have the population catchment area to make routes to mainland european cities economical both for the operator and the fare paying self loading cargo.

I had hoped that with the proliferation of the Low cost airlines that at least one would of attempted a route to see if demand was sufficient to operate a program of routes from HUY, I can only presume that either the owners were not prepared to offer landing fee discounts etc or the airlines themselves indentified the catchment are was just too small.

As for rail and motorway connections from the region, both are very good but if there was a London service from HUY I for one would at least would of snapped their hand off.

[aeulad]

It was well publicised that the Euro Direct HUY-BRU service was one of the few successful routes for 9R out of HUY. Eurodirect Belgie then took the route on when the parent company failed. It was subsequently operated as a SABENA franchise operation, and was increased to 3xdaily. The route was due to be upgraded to an EMB-120, but then SN phased out this a/c type and the D8-300 was deemed(correctly) too large an a/c to operate profitably on the route. The HUY-BRU route WAS working at the time.

The Esbjerg route was doing well in the early 90s, but demand wained as the years passed, going down to a weekly Gill Airways SH360 NCL-HUY-EBJ charter. I would think that there is not sufficient demand to operate this route now.

HUY-London has been a patchwork of services over the years. The main HUY-London market came from the North Bank, however, now there is Hull Trains which operates with an excellent reputation, and the mainline connecting services from Grimsby, Cleethorpes etc to London are fast and frequent. The only way I could see a service to London working is a low cost flight to Gatwick. Heathrow will never happen as the operational costs for such a small a/c would make the service ridiculously expensive to run. The HUY-NWI-LHR route was always busy, but the charges eventually got to AirUK and the route ceased.

The emergence of DSA onto the scene now dictates that HUY has very little chance of gaining a low-cost operator. The size of a/c is an issue as a 737/32S would be too large for the market. I would also say an F100 would be a touch on the optimistic side. Something more like an F70, or an EMB-170 would be suitable to operate limited services to the likes of Malaga, Alicante, Palma, Faro, Barcelona, Prague, Paris, Amsterdam, Belfast and Dublin. However, with DSA already having an impact on the HUY summer 2005 IT programme, all of this seems very unlikely.

I have had connections with HUY in the past, and it would seem that the management have been reluctant to lower fees sufficiently to attract a low-cost operator. HUY has missed out and could have been something more, if it had gotten it's act together before DSA came on the scene.

Time will tell, we shall see!

Regards

Mike

[BRUpax]

niknak

I would question your times a little. Check-in at a small regional airport can be as little as 20 mins prior to dep. (Indeed that's what SN Brussels Airlines post from a larger BHX to BRU). Block time HUY-BRU in an EMB-145 would be about 1:20. As for waiting a half hour for your bags at BRU, I very much doubt it. I often fly into BRU and nine times out of ten my bag reaches the carousel before I do. Finally, there is a frequent and rapid train service from BRU airport to the city centre. No need for buses or taxis.

[hermann der german]

There is a strong rumour going around Humberside that rescently an Eastern Airways Captain has been demoted for leaving EDI with insufficient fuel. Has anyone any furthur details

:{ :{ :{

Dis unt a godamnt lie !!!!!!!! spread by der untermenchen soviet shweinhunds to discredit me. Of course there vas enough of der fuel stuff on board, I said so, just because you verdamnt tommies build your aircraft to confuse a good deutchlander is not my fault.
Unt as for de other matter I vill personally shoot de tailor who sew der rings on my uniform, only after a few weeks der godamnt rings fell off der sleeves. B*#&^%D.

:ouch:

[Tiger]

Nice Jam. Currently, St. Pancras station is being rebuilt to accommodate new Eurostar services.
Think you find in a year or so a short walk from Kings X to St. Pancras will cut out a tube/bus journey.

[Harrier46]

Not been to Humberside for years but in the early '90s remember regular Intercity 125 trains from Habrough (couple of miles from the airport) to London and indeed when I made the trip it took just two hours. Has this service stopped now? Always thought it unusual that a tiny village saw so many trains, the 125s overhung the small platform at both ends! Rationale presumably was close proximity to Immingham and the airport, neither of which had their own rail link.

[Jump Airlines]

Can anyone tell me why Eastern deceided to close the Norwich to Groningen route?

[DC10FAN]

Niknak,

Reference your quote:

"From Humberside's nearest railway station, you can get to London in under 2 hours, then to central Brussels in another 1hr45mins, at a return 1st class fare of under £200.
Whilst that is a 3 and 3/4 hour trip, compare it with a similar amount of time to travel to HUY airport, check in 45mins before, wait for the aeroplane, possible delays due tech/wx/etc, 1hr 30min flight, wait at BRU for baggage (30mins), taxi or bus to centre of BRU - another 45 mins."


This is a slight exaggeration regards time for the rail journey; The shortest time from Barnetby to London Kings X..2hr 23mins. (Most trains actually take @2hr 45mins) Then you have to get to Waterloo to catch the Eurostar.. say 45mins transfer at the best of times. Then the 1hr 45min trip to Brussels.
I make that at least 4 hr 53 mins.

[Mooncrest]

I flew from Southampton to LBA on Eastern this afternoon. The aircraft operating the Newcastle trip was a J41 (G-MAJC for the spotters among you), no sign of the Saab 2000.

It was also a J41 on the LBA trip. Sooper flight by the way, lovely weather, no turbulence and a delightful stewardess from the old days. Shame about the ticket price though.

[johnwalton]

Mooncrest,

The afternoon NCL-SOU-NCL rotation is scheduled on a J41. The morning and evening rotations are currently on the ERJ. The Saab 2000 is currently operating NWI-ABZ but may be returning to ABZ-NCL-SOU for the winter.

[niknak]

Jump

The Norwich - Gronigen was a short term series of charters on behalf of BP, it was never destined to be a long term thing, although it appeared as a schedule service so that any spare seats could be taken advantage of - that rarely happened.
It now operates once, maybe a maximum of twice per week, (sometimes only fortnightly), usually by other charter operators, and the aircraft depends on the load factor.

Whispers are that Eastern are negotiating the lease of another Saab2000, it certainly seems far more practical on the NWI - ABZ route than the EMB135.

[circseam]

Been looking back at routes previously flown from HUY over the past 20 years and the operators of said same routes, quite depressing reading actually

Eastern Mk I
Air UK
Genair
Air Ecosse
Peregrine Aw
Aberdeen Aw
Gamma Aviation
Brown Air
Skyrover
Eurodirect
Gill Aw
Citi-bus
Eastern Aw
Klm
And presume there are more (No doubt someone can add to these) but if this is just one typical example of one regional airport then what does the future hold for airports of this type throughout the UK.

[aeulad]

The Brussels route was operated under the guise of SABENA and the Paris route for Air France, so they can be added to the list. British Regional as British Airways operated a daily ABZ sector when AirUK first gave up the route. Cimber Air operated HUY-Esbjerg-Sonderborg also.

In reality, it is a great shame, considering KLM, SABENA, Air France and British Airways, all major european airlines, have operated from HUY in the past, there seems a rea sense of missed opportunity.

Regards

Mike

[kenfoggo]

Yes , depressing how many people think that they have spotted a market that no-one else has seen, or believe THEY will be the niche operator who can make a thin route work.
Operators like Eastern are the scariest of the lot, 15 plus bases variety of aircraft types, thin routes and high fares. Slightest downturn in the economy and even if the airline has it balance sheet in order, the first thing that suffers is corporate travel budgets and people stop flying on these routes.
I suspect that even if Eastern are getting the J41 s at a give away price from British Airways , trouble lurks not far from that particular house of cards. They look set to join the list above of failed operators .

[circseam]

While I understand your point of view, I think Eastern is like any other regional operator both past and present, the slowing of the economy, especially the oil and gas industries would be bad news to Eastern Aw but enough to put it out of business, i think not.

Eastern have weathered the 9/11 passenger drop off, seem to be managing the rise in oil prices and the Chairman has a vast experience of operating both an airline and being based at HUY.

Like any other evolving business, the market changes and the operator has to change or it becomes defunct. Eastern has capitalised on BA's downsizing, they have grown probably alot faster (but probably the J41's are on good lease terms, the routes were established and marketed) than the owners could ever of imagined but I'm sure and hope Eastern are here for the duration.

[niknak]

Absolutely spot on circseam, Eastern have got HUY by the balls, they operate from there as their base cos it costs them between nothing and nowt to do so.
Politically it would be inconcieveable for the HUY management to tell Eastern to go elsewhere, equally it would cost Eastern nothing to pull the ABZ flight from HUY and move elsewhere, because they know that no one else would commit themselves to the expense that they do not endure, of taking it on.

Kenfoggo - if you take a close look at the routes Eastern operate, you will note that almost without exception they are those which can only be served by the rail network in terms of a day return journey, even then the first class return rail fare is just below the Eastern return air fare, and the air fare permits you to do a days work and return home by 7pm, which for the most part the railways can't do.

Eastern have weathered the best and worst of the UK economy over the last 5 years, I believe that they are here to stay, and will almost certainly stay at HUY, but when Finningly is up and running, they will virtually be the King of the Hill.

[kenfoggo]

NikNak, Yes I have looked at the schedules Eastern fly. I may also have used them from time to time. I also wonder what kind of passengers use these services. For example, Manchester to Stansted three times daily at 295 GBP return. Not VFR traffic. Not interlining traffic. Only leaves business travel.

I wish them well, I hope for their employees sake they DO have their business model well and truely tied down.

If you are who I suspect you are you will know very well how the managing personel operate. You have obviously moved on to different and hopefully better things since Eastern Mark One twenty odd years ago. That was half a lifetime away, but I would wager money that if you were to put your head round the door of the Marrowbone and Cleaver on any Friday lunchtime, you will see the same people holding court at the bar, different hangers on in attendance but the same or similar old stories being told, alledgedly.

Having said that they rule HUY, I say, so what? No money there and too small a catchment area. The real money comes not in operating an airline but in the deals that surround it's operation and you have to be in the game to play. I'm sure a man at a bar told me that once .

rgds

[Punditgreen]

Eastern's relationship with HUY is best described as symbiotic, but they are by no means the only Operators about.
The situation may indeed change with the advent of Maid Marion International, as NikNak is always keen to point out. (His Local Authority pension was preserved or transferred many years ago so lobbing brickbats from the sidelines is risk free for him)
Let none of us forget the enmity between the two major players in the Airport stakes; minor pieces can be of major value at times.
Time, as they say, will tell.

[circseam]

Eastern, have alot of history of been based at HUY, Eastern Mk I days saw them even operate the airports refueling farm, operated from the then 2 hangers and handled for other operators. Maybe Eaqstern Mk II doesnt have that same strangle hold on the airports economy but they are the dominant player at the airport.

As for attracting new airlines and subsequent new routes, I can only assume the airports owners are activley seeking the illusive operators but I think more can be done and due to the compexity of the ownership (believe North Lincs Council still have kept their share) I just hope that HUY can be a profitable enterprise for all concerned.

Jenkins - Why invest in a/c when you already have an a/c that probably costs very little to be leased (thanks to BA), operating economies of operating such a substantial fleet, i.e. spares and pilot training must also aid Eastern in their costs. Maybe someone could enlighten us to the direct operating costs of the J41 against the types you have mentioned.

[kirkbymoorside]

Just heard Eastern won this years European Regional Airline Associations Silver Airline of the Year award.

They won it last year too and as the judging takes into account all aspects of an airlines business including strategy and financial performance this would seem to suggest they are doing things well.

[kenfoggo]

Punditgreen, not sure that I understand the last bit of your post about hostility between HUY players. Do you mean there is friction between Manchester Airports Group and the Council? Or between competing airlines at HUY?

[aeulad]

Unfortunately, there are no competing airlines at HUY. KLM operate to Amsterdam, and Eastern Airways to Aberdeen, that is it:{

Regards

Mike

[circseam]

Mike - May be not for long, I keep hearing the same rumour from numerous people that Flybe may become a direct competitor on routes currently served by both Bmi regional and Eastern.

Would the current operators match Flybe's pricing or just try to catch the business end of the market.

[ALLMCC]

Well Eastern have certainly reviewed their pricing on the ABZ - BFS following Flybe's arrival on ABZ - BHD - used to be £200+ cheapest now available at around £90

[eastern wiseguy]

Get the cardiac unit on standby ....I AGREE with allmcc.The reduction in price is VERY noticable. I recall the last time something like this happened was when there was competition on the LGW route to BHD where Flybe saw the writing on the wall and reduced their fares in direct response to the arrival of EZY(and seemed to survive). Great news for the customer but I wonder how sustainable it is for the airlines ...and ultimately which one has the deeper pocket.

[Going loco]

"I keep hearing the same rumour from numerous people that Flybe may become a direct competitor on routes currently served by both Bmi regional and Eastern"

Yes, I'm led to believe bmi regional @ Leeds are being lined up for an offensive. EDI/GLA/JER all on the flybe network of course and with bmi filling these at quite extraordinary fares, they are ripe for the flybe treatment.

loco

[nclairportfan]

There are also rumours at NCL that flybe have been looking at Easterns other routes such as BHX, ABZ and IOM.

It's also interesting that Flybe went double daily on the NCL - SOU with good times for business travellers! I wonder who will win the war!

[skiddyiom]

Eastern are essentially a business airline, and will find it hard to compete with LCC's and similar. However, I believe their policy is not to go head to head on routes. Their service is excellent and the J-41 is ideally suited to the levels of both customers and frequency.

I do also believe, however, that Eastern are looking for a J-41 replacement. The lease (BA) on them expires in 2007 and unless Eastern take on an extension, then the aircraft will return to lessor.

Skiddy

[Flightrider]

skiddyiom, the J41s are a problem. Eastern's business model relies on being able to get a relatively small number of passengers at high yields onto its aircraft. This is an absolute godsend to FlyBe. All it needs to do is transfer that small number of pax at high yields onto the Q400s and then it's paid for the operation of the aircraft, but still has 50 seats to play with.

Eastern's only saving grace at the moment is that FlyBe's frequencies on a number of key routes like NCL-SOU and LBA-SOU have been fairly light and have not provided the business schedules offered by Eastern. However, this is progressively changing and NCL-SOU is the first route to come under sustained direct fire. It will be interesting to see how they get on.

In my view, the only way for Eastern to survive is to get more 50-seat turboprops and play FlyBe at their own game. Frequency increases; turn off some of the smaller markets which have no potential for growth; and try some new routes linking existing network points like Newcastle-Norwich, Edinburgh-Isle of Man.

It would not be surprising to see NCL-BHX and routes ex ABZ feature in more FlyBe announcements.

If they fail to do so, Eastern will become marginalised rapidly and I believe they have only six to twelve months left in which to make radical changes to their business plan. Any route which will sustain a J41 will almost certainly sustain a Q400 with lower fares to expand the market. It means the future for Eastern is either grow; or cut back to J31 operations where markets will be too small for anyone else to serve. The latter doesn't seem like much of an option.

[skiddyiom]

Flightrider, you could be right, although I am not sure Easterns business plan involves competing with Flybe. Or, indeed, if Flybe intend to aggressively compete with Eastern. Flybe seem to be concentrating more on expanding into Europe at the moment.

The aircraft are a big worry though. As I said, the J-41's are due return soon, which may be no bad thing, and I believe the J-31/32's are slated for retirement too. But routes like IOM-LBA and IOM-BHX are not busy enough for a 50 seater. But they are relatively busy with the 19/29 seats of the Jetstreams. And I would imagin there are other routes on Eastern's network in the same predicament.

skiddy

[Buy one get one free]

If the price was right to stimulate demand, you may well be able to fill your 50 seater aircraft, and still do okay.

An integrated approach both ends of the route can only help.



;)

[circseam]

I'm trying to get my head around why FlyBE would want to compete with other established operators that far North of their main operations.

I presume they would have to establish a base station at ABZ and would surely at first take losses on these routes as they vie for market share.

I thought the FlyBE business model was based upon operating up European routes from their Southern bases but with some frills.

Is there really a need for 3 operators to vie for a market that they all know is just not large enough for that many operators. Heard that FlyBE would then open up the ABZ base to scandanavian routes to compete against SAS and CityStar.

Tough times ahead for both Eastern and Bmi I think

[Trislander]

Woulden't an a/c like the DHC-8 100/200 and a couple of 300's be a good choice for Eastern? That way they have a/c for the 30 seat and 50 seat markets and can chop and change last minute with no crewing probs. I'm not an expert, just a thought.

With the larger, faster a/c of flybe and cheaper seats however, how long can Eastern compete for as they seem to have a very flybe-esque network, but more pricey seats. Even these days businesses are more reluctant to shell out on expensive business fares and instead place their employees on the loco's.

Tri :ok:

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

They are slowly getting one of the fastest turboprops around the Saab 2000
(3 in fleet)

G-I-B

[Mark Lewis]

Had a nice shiny Saab 2000 in Farnborough today, came in from Norwhich and went out to Belfast City, first time we have seen one of these here, usualy its the Jetstreams.

[ALLMCC]

Noticed this on BHD's arrivals board showing an EZE flight code - any ideas what it was doing?