Wg Cdr Guy Gibson VC DFC DSO

[Doppelganger]

Today is the day 60 years ago that one of our greatest heroes was killed in action.
He led 617 Squadron on the raid to break down the German Dams in May 1943 (aged 24) and was awarded the VC.

On the 19th September 1944 he flew out of Woodhall Spa on a bombing mission flying a Mosquito from 627 squadron. Having completed the bombing raid, Gibson went on to check anti aircraft positions. Sadly, the mosquito crashed killing both Gibson and his navigator Squadron Leader J.B Warwick.

I don't normally post any messages on this board, but I think this is worth noting.

A proper leader.

[pr00ne]

Dopelganger

Agree on the date but not much else!

"Having completed the bombing raid, Gibson went on to check anti aircraft positions. Sadly, the mosquito crashed killing Gibson and …… "

Where on earth did you dig THAT up from?

The guy was brought down after descending to low altitude on the return leg after flying a Master Bomber trip that he was neither trained nor qualified for. At the time he was Base Air Staff Officer at 54 Base and he badgered 5 Group to be allowed to fly the trip after not having been genuinely operational since the Dams Raid. The sortie was not officially authorised as he was not to be exposed to any risk of capture, nor was he a Master Bomber.

The loss has always been controversial, much speculation about the actual reasons being bandied back and forth over the years.
Most reasonable explanation being that, not being current or checked out on the Mosquito, he failed to change fuel tanks, couldn't locate the fuel cocks, engines cut causing the descent , at low level the barometrically fused 250LB marker bombs ignited bringing the aircraft down.

[Doppelganger]

Not worth remembering then?

[jimgriff]

Surely the barometric fuseswould not have been "armed" until they left the aircraft.

All fuses are dumb until dropped then they do their stuff.

[Impiger]

Jimgriff has to be right about the fuses otherwise every hung barometric bomb would go bang on finals!!

As for Gibson VC - obviously a top bloke he used to be on 29 (F) Sqn flying Defiants out of Digby. Interesting though how so many first class leaders in the face of adversity etc also have the "reputation" of being complete ar**s. Could this be peer group envy or is there something in the psychology of the warrior/leader that makes them this way? Discuss.

[pr00ne]

Jimgriff and impiger,

Valid point about fusing, the theory arose from eye witnesses who saw the aircraft just before impact and a common theme was a report of the cockpit "glowing."

I don't know much about the marker bombs carried by 5 Group in 1944, but I suppose that they would have been fused in a similar way to conventional HE bombs.

Impiger,

Yes, why do folk like Bader and Gibson have this "reputation" ? Is it maybe because their feats were performed during wartime when propaganda was far more important than the truth? Subsequent films such as Reach for the sky didn't exactly help by giving totally false and idealised portrayals of the characters involved that were easily disproved by anyone who had personal expereince of the man involved.

Also, to perform heroic deeds does not require you to be a saint, why can't you be a hero in a very narrow sense and a complete t***er in every other aspect of your life?

[BEagle]

Far be it for me to query the words of an ex-CO of 29, but I think you'll find that they were in the process of converting from Blenheims to Beaufighters when Gibson arrived.....

Gibson states in his book that 141 Sqn were at Digby at the time - and they flew the Defiant. However, 141 were based in Scotland at the time - perhaps he meant 151 who were at Digby then? They also had Defiants, but only later in the war and at Bramcote, not Digby. The only other squadron at Digby then was 112 with Hurricanes and later Spitfires; the squadron had moved to England in June 1940 and was renumbered as 402 Fighter Squadron on 1 March 1941.

I'm pretty sure, Impiger old chum, that your old Sqn never flew the Defiant.

[Archimedes]

I have to agree with BEagle (although I think he means 121 rather than 112, though - 112 were rather busy in sandy places at the time, while 121 were converting from Hurri IIB to Spits). 29(F) doesn't appear to be recorded as ever having used the Defiant.

IIRC, Gibson did very well with 29(F) and shot down a couple of German bombers (I dimly seem to recall reading that it was three, but this was years ago).

[November4]

at low level the barometrically fused 250LB marker bombs ignited bringing the aircraft down

Wouldn't he have dropped the marker bombs before making the return flight?

[pr00ne]

Nov 4,

No, he was acting as the Master Bomber, the marking was done by dedicated flare force and marker aircraft, the master bomber only carried markers as a back up, they were not dropped on this occasion.

[Zoom]

pr00ne

I met Bader only once and just for a mere 30 minutes or so, but I was left with the firm impression that Kenneth Moore had got pretty close to the mark in his portrayal of him in Reach for the Sky.

But we digress..................

[Jackonicko]

"Why do folk like Bader and Gibson have this "reputation" ? Is it maybe because their feats were performed during wartime when propaganda was far more important than the truth?"

Not all wartime leaders have the kind of controversial reputation (to put it at its most neutral) that have attached to Bader and Gibson, and it may be that these bloke's neo-Churchillian dogmatic, stubborn, short-fuse pugnaciousness made them more attractive to the PR people, and whose thirst for personal recognition made them seek it out?

No.617 had a host of COs whose military achievements at least equalled Gibson's, but whose flying, man management skills and popularity may have been higher. Not least Leonard Cheshire - and then you have the Bennetts, Embrys, Learoyds, Nettletons, and Searbys of Bomber Command, all of whom were great, high-achieving leaders who were not 'tainted' by some of the shadows on Gibson's historical score sheet. Equally, Fighter Command had dozens of squadron and Wing COs who were better fighter pilots, better leaders and nicer blokes than Bader - you might start with Malan, Johnson, Stanford Tuck and Beamont.....

[Flt Lt Spry]

In a recent TV documentary, one of chap who claimed to work with Gibson claimed he had a terrible reputation; he then went on to explain that he drank too much and spent his evenings chasing women. Thank goodness that we have come a long way in the last 60 years and behaviour like that is no longer acceptable.

[G085H1TE]

Most reasonable explanation being that, not being current or checked out on the Mosquito, he failed to change fuel tanks, couldn't locate the fuel cocks, engines cut causing the descent ,

Is that likely?

Why would the pilot be operating the fuel cocks, surely that's the Observer's job? Aren't the fuel cocks behind the pilot's seat in a Mossie, which would certianly make it the Observer's job.

[airborne_artist]

one of chap who claimed to work with Gibson claimed he had a terrible reputation; he then went on to explain that he drank too much

Of course Churchill was no stranger to the bottle.

[Jackonicko]

And as for Aristotle......

(Hoping for full lyric)

[Army Mover]

As requested:

The Philosophers Drinking Song

Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
who was very rarely stable.
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out consume
Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel,
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
who was just as sloshed as Schlegel.

There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya
'bout the raisin' of the wrist.
Socrates himself was permanently pissed.

John Stuart Mill, of his own free will,
after half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.
Plato, they say, could stick it away,
'alf a crate of whiskey every day!
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
and Hobbes was fond of his Dram.
And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart:
"I drink, therefore I am."

Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.

-- Monty Python

[pr00ne]

GO85HITE,

I agree, it is an unlikely explanation and it is probable that the reason Gibson went in will never be known. All that is known for certain is that he was seen descending under what seemed to be control, no flak was seen, the two crew could be seen silhoutted against what appeared to be a fire in the cockpit.

Neither Warwick or Gibson were familiar with the Mosquito aircraft having not carried out a conversion course or been officially checked out on type.

BTW

Like the handle!

[stuk]

Without wishing to get into a discussion about the man's character, nor into a "Why didn't the poor sods down the back get one" but can someone tell me why he was awarded the VC.

[Skeleton]

His Citation reads:

Wing Commander Gibson, whose personal courage knew no bounds, was quickly recognised to be an outstanding operational pilot and leader. He served with conspicuously successful results as a night bomber pilot and also as a night fighter pilot, on operational tours. In addition, on his "rest" nights he made single-handed attacks on highly defended objectives such as the German battleship Tirpitz. Wing Commander Gibson was then selected to command a squadron formed for special tasks. Under his inspiring leadership this squadron executed one of the most devastating attacks of the war - the breaching of the Moehne and Eder dams. Wing Commander Gibson personally made the initial attack on the Moehne dam. Descending to within a few feet of the water, he delivered his attack with great accuracy. He then circled very low for thirty minutes, drawing the enemy fire and permitting as free a run as possible to the following aircraft. He repeated these tactics in the attack on the Eder dam. Throughout his operational career, prolonged exceptionally at his own request, he has shown leadership, determination and valour of the highest order

By all accounts he was a hard taskmaster who did not suffer fools gladly. Given the events of the time and the fact that men such as himself commanded in the certain knowledge they were sending men to there deaths, strong and forceful leadership was surely needed. He was also a man who was most certainly class orientated. His actions in dealing with the two crews who "failed" during the dams raid surely prove his attitude toward those he considered to be of lower standing than himself.

[Archimedes]

His actions in dealing with the two crews who "failed" during the dams raid surely prove his attitude toward those he considered to be of lower standing than himself.

Skeleton - that rings a bell or two, but can you elaborate on that, please?

[Skeleton]

Im at work and need to check the exact detail but two of the crews returned early without going near the dams. Both cited Navigational problems and fog.

Gibson interviwed both pilots shortly after and the SNCO led crew were posted forthwith. The Officer crew were slapped on the wrist and told not to do it again.

Ill check when I get home on the exact detail.

[brakedwell]

I remember being involved with another hero, Johnnie Johnson, in Aden. He was certainly not one of natures gentlemen, but perhaps you needed to be a selfish egotist to become a fighter ace in WW2.

[opso]

Percy Pickard (Gp Capt on the Amien Prison Raid) didn't have a reputation for being an @rse, yet he certainly fits alongside many of the heroes of Jacko's list and was one of the most famous airmen of the war years. Indeed, whilst he didn't receive a VC for Op JERICHO, the French were so certain that he deserved one ahead of other VC recipients that they initially marked the award on his gravestone, convinced that it would be awarded.

[DC10RealMan]

Wing Commander Guy Gibson was a man of his class and time. He was a professional military man prior to the outbreak of World War II and perhaps his attitude to life reflected that. I read a book quite recently about his early life prior to joining the RAF. His father lived in India, his mother was an alcoholic who lived in England with her family including Guy who was a youngest son, his mother died tragically at a young age due to an accident. I would suggest that if this situation arose today then Guy and his family might be taken in to care. When he led the Dams Raid I believe that he did not have enough flying hours to qualify him for an ATPL nowadays. He was a young man who fate decided would be made a "hero", a much abused word nowadays. Let him be remembered as a representative of RAF Bomber Command the vast majority of whose crews faced nearly certain death in one of its most unpleasant forms with stoicism and bravery and did their duty and died unacknowledged.

Tony Fallows
Swanwick ATC Centre

[Yarpy]

one chap who claimed to work with Gibson claimed he had a terrible reputation; he then went on to explain that he drank too much and spent his evenings chasing women.

And so what? Sounds just like a high spirited young military pilot to me. In those politically incorrect times it was probably seen as a good thing to let your hair down.

[Shackman]

Whilst not directly relating to this thread, another member of 29 sqn who served with Gibson is to be remembered on 1 Oct. The Lord Mayor of Hull will be presenting a plaque to Hymers College in memory of Plt Off (?) Freer who was kia on 11 May 41.

He was flying a Blenheim at the time, so may be that also answers earlier questions about the type in use.

[pr00ne]

DC10RealMan,

Very eloquently put, just a damm shame the "system" at the time didn't take a similar view.

Trying to exploit the mans reputation and status by sending him to the USA and encouraging him to stand as a Tory MP did nothing for his sense of reality and certainly added to the enormous ego he acquired prior to his death.

[jindabyne]

Pity about all this character assassination. I know little of their true character, and I doubt whether others on this thread do so - other than through hearsay and written innuendo. It is quite misleading to try to define such people by comparing them with other well-known wartime RAF personalities - I knew two of the those mentioned by Jacko, and neither could be regarded as being contemporarily superior! We are all wired up in different ways - vive la difference.

Whatever flaws they had, so what? They were young men tasked with violent deeds, and their Service records and exploits reflect considerable bravery. Surely this doesn't merit an undefendable public kicking sixty years later on? Or are we on yet another quest to expose and record the 'truth'- lest we forget.

[Archimedes]

jindabyne, I quite agree (my query to Skeleton shouldn't be taken as a desire to gain information against Gibson for knocking him - I'm just interested in the history).

Part of the broader problem, I'd suggest, is the bizarre notion that heroes are all thoroughly nice chaps; in Gibson's case, the problem is made worse by the expectation that he was, in fact, just like Richard Todd...

[Impiger]

Bugger. Too much claret! You are of course correct it was Blenheims at Digby at the time - can't for the life of me think where Defiants came from - must be cos I was feeling defiant about some of the crap you read in the press these days. Ho hum. Still think he must have been a tout circlement bon oeuf.

If you make it to the Phantom Phliers not even remotely disguised PU in the usual place on the Friday before Remembrance Sunday I'll buy you that pint I owe you from 1982!

[BEagle]

Claret? Is that Wheel-talk for Vino rosso collapso di Tesco?

Is there a qualifying criterion for entry to the Phantom Phliers PU, old chum?

Can't help thinking that Boulton-Paul had a point with the Defiant. Not only did the nav have to sort out the intercept, he also had to fire the waepons. So none of that "You fired too late despite my perfect 0.7 Ra solution" crap. Like when Wee Stevie wouldn't give me a SP III kill because there were only 29, not 30 frames on the film......

It was rather a hoot though, thinking back on it all!

[Skeleton]

Certainly no slur here from me, he was a leader of his time and he was like so many of his generation tasked with implementing a plan that was obviously going to cost many lives on both sides. This he did.

Whatever flaws they had, so what? They were young men tasked with violent deeds, and their Service records and exploits reflect considerable bravery
Says it all.

We may look back at history and say he was a B:mad: of a leader but so what he was a brave one, but so were the rest of his squadron. I guess getting "rid" of crews quietly by overnight postings for those not performing or not prepared to risk all was par for the course in WW2. What else could they do? Indeed Gibson himself (or his Flight Commanders) spotted a couple of aircrew that they themselves had tried to pass on beforehand!! Needless to say they were returned whence they came in very short order.

[Jackonicko]

I’m old enough to have interveiwed several Dambuster survivors, and while there’s no doubt that Gibson earned respect, he wasn’t much liked, whereas Mickey Martin and Len Cheshire were BOTH.

Gibson’s treatment of some of those who flew on the raid was appalling. It was clear that those in the third wave would have the toughest job of all – with more difficult navigation with the lower moon and gathering mist. They were also tasked with penetrating German defences that had already been ‘stirred up’ by the previous waves and alerted by the previous attacks, and had to be flexible enough to attack targets missed by the first waves, or the back-up targets. The aircraft did not leave Scampton until after midnight (almost four hours after the first wave!) going in so much later that much of their return flight would be through pre-dawn mist, and even leaving them still over enemy territory in daylight. But Gibson left it to his NCO pilots to form the backbone of this wave, and gave them little credit after the mission, even though the successful pilots (Brown and Townsend) had to make several dummy runs before making successful attacks, and then had to fly recces over the Dams that had been attacked earlier that night. Several people involved in Op Chastise have opined that Townsend, in particular, showed heroism that equalled anything displayed in the first wave.

Both these NCO pilots hit their targets (Townsend probably bombed the Bever Dam rather than the Ennepe) but found no congratulations from the Boss when they returned to Scampton, both having had a hard fight to get home, running out under fire from very heavy flak, and crossing the enemy coast without the cover of darkness.

Flight Sergeant Anderson was the pilot posted away after the mission, and he (the last to take off) aborted his mission only after having received a last minute change of target (from the Diemel to the Sorpe) losing his rear turret, after becoming uncertain of his position, after taking a pasting from the defences around Hamm (woken up by Otley’s aircraft) and with dawn only 90 minutes away.

I’ve never heard of any of the survivors criticising Anderson’s actions (quite the reverse, in fact). But Gibson was less ‘understanding’ and posted him out. Two officer pilots turned back in the Second Wave, and received no such treatment.

To damn Anderson as “not performing or not prepared to risk all” is even shabbier now than it was at the time.

[Skeleton]

Why was he posted out then is the obvious question. Gibson must have had his reasons, maybe a past history between the two.

I understood obviously wrongly that he never went near the dams.

I for one would never question any of the Dambusters crews courage, quite the reverse is true in fact.

Interviewing some of the survivours must have been an honour and more revealing than any history book.

[teeteringhead]

the expectation that he was, in fact, just like Richard Todd... Although Richard T could have his moments....

I heard a good dit about RT and the filming of "Dambusters" at Scampton or wherever, which was a working station at the time. Apparently, to avoid confusing actors with real serving people (after some luvvies got bollocked for not saluting a real orfiser), it was decided that the actors would wear brown boots/shoes to distinguish them (B&W film so it wouldn't show).

Having been really commissioned, Todd insisted on wearing black shoes ..... and getting the salutes!

[Archimedes]

Thank you, Jacko - fills in the gaps in my memory.


Slightly OT, but wrt Richard Todd, he, of course, took part in another 'epic' of WW2, namely seizing Pegasus Bridge. Useful background info for when he later played his own CO [I'm fairly certain he was one of Major John Howard's men] in The Longest Day

[jindabyne]

Jacko

There is/was probably enough dirt around to portray wartime 'personalities' in whatever light you wish to choose. And the older one gets, the better/worse the telling usually becomes. Sometimes out spite, sometimes through memory-blur. I say this not out of unpleasantness or disrespect, but experience. Look only as far as this forum for proof!

As for being 'liked', so what? It has long been described in military circles that being likeable is not a pre-requisite leadership trait. I've had a couple of squadron bosses who were far from popular in the crewroom, but most of the team would have wanted them at the front in difficult times. I've also had thoroughly nice COs who were equally useless in the air.

To be both liked and warrior-like is to be perfect. I suspect that not many were.

[Jackonicko]

Jindy,

Obviously.

But simply being an obnoxious git, refusing advice, crawling to your superiors and exercising favouritism and prejudice to your subordinates doesn't automatically make one a good leader, either.

The great leader will be:
1) Obeyed without question
2) Respected and trusted
3) Liked

Probably in that order.

[Piggies]

I believe that Richard Todd was not a member of John Howard's platoon(?) but rather a member of 9 Para who dropped near to the bridge and then relieved the assault force.

[jindabyne]

Jacko

Ah! So in accepting that there was 'no doubt :mad::mad: earned respect', then :mad::mad:'s a third of the way there. And if we can presume that :mad::mad: was generally obeyed without question (reluctant obedience does not necessarily follow 'refused advice'), then :mad::mad:'s two-thirds the way there. If your analysis that :mad::mad: wasn't generally liked holds water, then so what? It would desirable to be liked, but it's not essential - whereas I suggest your first two criteria probably are.

Did any of your interviewees reveal a different side to the man, or did you not travel that road?

I've no doubt there are those of us that could recall tales of 'revered' peacetime RAF leaders which would similarly and severely dim the odd halo. Most choose not to (in public): it would be pointless, and potentially hurtful to others.

Mod

Why ---?????

[Jackonicko]

Jindy,

Thought we'd gone from the specific (Gibson) to the general. I was just pointing out that while being liked isn't a prerequisite to leadership, nor is being disliked.

My list of negatives wasn't specifically referring to Gibson.

I don't think Gibson was obnoxious, for starters.

I think that professional competence, flexibility and the ability to get the best from one's team (and the ability to listen to and take advice) is an inherent part in ensuring point 2.

I am not a great Gibson fan, despite his undoubted achievements, since I think that he was a bit of a self-publicist and a bit of a braggart, whose trumpeting of his own achievements (and their subsequent trumpeting by others) have distorted history and have led to the achievements of others having been diminished, forgotten or under-stated.

Everyone has heard of Gibson and the Dams Raid, when Searby, Slee, and Operation Robinson and the raid on Peenemunde are perhaps equally worth remembering and celebrating, though they are virtually unknown today. Or if we are only to celebrate heroic sacrifice, then Nettleton and Augsburg should surely be as well remembered as Gibson and Operation Chastise?

Richard Todd and 'Enemy Coast Ahead' are perhaps a poor reason for determining the historical significance of different parts of Bomber Command's mid-war operations.

[jindabyne]

Points accepted Jacko. Can't understand the censorship though, can you?

[Gainesy]

Jinda,
Don't think its censorship, it seems to be a glitch occuring in numerous threads. Spoils the flow though.

[Scud-U-Like]

I wouldn't call it censorship. More like whim moderation.

[DC10RealMan]

One further thing about Guy Gibson, we think of him as a Wing Commander, but I would suggest we are used to Wing Commanders nowadays being in their thirties and forties and with the maturity and judgement that age brings. Guy Gibson was 19 when he was flying Hampdens at the outbreak of war in 1939, he was 23 when he won the VC leading the Dams Raid, and 24 when he died. When I was that age I knew nothing, but thought I knew everything and I hadnt won the Victoria Cross. I think that we should not sit in judgement on a young man sixty years after his death no matter what his "faults" or perceived chracter defects.

Tony Fallows,
Swanwick ATC Centre

[airborne_artist]

A very good point, and well made Tony.

The Telegraph carried today the obituary of Flt Lt David Rodger DFC, tail gunner for Flt Lt McCarthy on 617. It's here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&targetRule=10&xml=/news/2004/09/22/db2202.xml)

[Archimedes]

Note that he played his last game of ice hockey aged 84...

[Huw Roberts]

It's one of the least attractive features of our modern, celebrity obsessed, society that undoubtedly brave men, who fought hard for their country, are subjected to attempted character assassination many years after the events.

There are probably few left alive who are qualified to stand in judgement on men like Gibson, Bader and Johnson. One who was perhaps better qualified than most (Gp Capt Sir Hugh (Cocky) Dundas) wrote the following about Bader:`he showed quite clearly by his example the way in which a man should behave in time of war and his spirit buoyed me up through many dark days...'

Nuff said?

[JessTheDog]

Another of the Few has sadly passed away. Probably not a name that would be familiar to the public at large, but his exploits speak for themselves and he was a pioneer of innovative areas of air power that are nowadays firmly established nowadays - fighter control, tactical fighter and bomber forces, air-ground co-operation, joint/combined operations. And a well-earned retirement in Australia!


Group Captain Tom Dalton-Morgan
(Filed: 24/09/2004)

Group Captain Tom Dalton-Morgan, who has died in Australia aged 87, was one of the RAF's most distinguished Battle of Britain fighter pilots; he later achieved considerable success during the German night attacks on Glasgow before playing a prominent role in co-ordinating fighter operations for the D-Day landings.

Dalton-Morgan had virtually no experience as a fighter pilot when he was appointed a flight commander of No 43 Squadron - "The Fighting Cocks" - in June 1940. The squadron was flying Hurricanes from Tangmere, near Chichester, and together with others in No 11 Group, bore the brunt of the Luftwaffe attacks.

He quickly established himself as a fearless leader. On July 12, he shared in the destruction of a Heinkel bomber; but he was forced to bale out the following day when he destroyed another and then was hit by crossfire. With no badges of rank in evidence - he was wearing pyjamas under his flying suit - he was "captured" by a bobby who placed him in the cells along with the German bomber crew he had just shot down.

Despite being slightly wounded, Dalton-Morgan was soon back in action, accounting for four more enemy aircraft in the next three weeks. In early September, he shot down three Messerschmitt fighters. After one engagement he was wounded in the face and knee, and had to crash-land. His DFC praised him for "displaying great courage when his behaviour in action has been an inspiration to his flight".

Despite his wounds, Dalton-Morgan returned to take command of the depleted squadron after the death of the CO, and took it to Northumberland to train replacement pilots.

A descendant of the buccaneer Sir Henry Morgan and the Cromwellian general Sir Thomas Morgan, Thomas Frederick Dalton-Morgan was born on March 23 1917 at Cardiff and educated at Taunton School. He joined the RAF on a short service commission in 1935, and trained as a pilot.

Following service with No 22 Squadron, flying the Wildebeeste torpedo bomber, he joined the training staff at the Air Ministry. In April 1940 he applied to return to flying, and was appointed to No 43.

After the Battle of Britain, Dalton-Morgan's primary task was to train new pilots for service with the squadrons in the south. He was also required to establish a night-fighting capability with the Hurricane; a task he achieved with great success. Few enemy night bombers fell victim to single-seat fighter pilots, but Dalton-Morgan, hunting alone, destroyed no fewer than six.

Three of his victims went down in successive nights on May 6-7 1941, when the Luftwaffe embarked on a major offensive against the Clydesdale ports and Glasgow. On June 8, Dalton-Morgan achieved a remarkable interception when he shot down a Junkers bomber, having made initial contact by spotting its shadow on the moonlit sea. After two more successes at night, he was carrying out a practice interception on July 24 with a fellow pilot when he saw another Junkers.

Dalton-Morgan gave chase and intercepted it off May Island. Despite his engine failing and fumes filling the cockpit, he attacked the bomber three times. He had just watched it hit the sea when his engine stopped. Too low to bale out, he made a masterly landing on the water, but lost two front teeth when his face hit the gun sight. He clambered into his dinghy before being rescued by the Navy.

His station commander, Wing Commander H Eeles, commented: "I consider this to be a classic example of how a first-class fighter pilot can attack an enemy while his engine is failing, shoot it down, force land on the sea, and get away with it." Dalton-Morgan was awarded a Bar to his DFC "for his exceptional skill". He scored another night victory on October 2, off Berwick-on-Tweed. Finally, in February 1942, after 18 months in command, the longest spell by any of No 43's wartime commanding officers, Dalton-Morgan was rested, having shot down at least 14 aircraft and damaged others.

After a spell as a fighter controller at Turnhouse, near Edinburgh, he returned to operations in late 1942 to become leader of the Ibsley Wing. Here he had eight fighter squadrons under him, with the task of mounting long-range offensive sorties over northern France and providing scouts for the tactical bomber squadrons. After damaging an Me 109 in December, he shot down a Focke Wulf 190 fighter and damaged another during a sweep over Brest. He was awarded the DSO in May 1943, which recorded his victories at the time as 17.

His experience of escort operations led to his being attached to the 4th Fighter Group of the US 8th Air Force, which was just beginning long-range bomber escort work. He flew more than 70 combat sorties with the group. Promoted group captain early in 1944, he served as operations officer with the 2nd Tactical Air Force.

For a period he worked on an air-to-ground fighter control system with Major John Profumo, whom he rated as the most capable and generous Army officer he had met.

Dalton-Morgan engaged in planning fighter and ground attack operations in support of the campaign in Normandy, then moved to the mainland with his organisation after the invasion. Years after, his CO at the time (later Air Marshal Sir Fred Rosier) commented: "It would be impossible to overstate Tom D-M's importance and influence on the conduct of fighter operations for and beyond D-Day".

A month before the end of the war in Europe, Dalton-Morgan learned that his only brother, John, who also had the DFC, had been shot down and killed flying a Mosquito. Dalton-Morgan remained in Germany with 2nd Tactical Air Force after the war before attending the RAF Staff College, and becoming a senior instructor at the School of Land/Air Warfare. Later he commanded the Gutersloh Wing, flying Vampire jets, before taking command of RAF Wunsdorf.

On leaving the service in 1952, Dalton-Morgan joined the UK/Australian Joint Project, at Woomera, where he managed the weapons range for the next 30 years before retiring in Australia.

He made regular trips home to visit the missile testing range at Aberporth, to see his family and to attend service reunions. He was a vice-president of the Hawker Hurricane Society.

Dalton-Morgan was recognised as one of the RAF's finest fighter leaders. Slightly scarred by his wounds, he had the dashing good looks of the archetypal fighter pilot, and always attracted the greatest admiration from his air and ground crews. In an article on leadership written after the war, one of Dalton-Morgan's former pilots wrote: "He had an awesome charisma; some sort of special aura seemed to surround him. He was the epitome of leadership, he was a born leader."

He was appointed OBE in 1945 and mentioned in dispatches in 1946, the year President Harry Truman awarded him the US Bronze Star.

Tom Dalton-Morgan died on September 18, the eve of the annual Battle of Britain Anniversary service at Westminster Abbey, which he had hoped to attend.

[SOMAT]

Huw Roberts.

Well said and, for the greater part, I agree with you. However, with the exception of such 'natural' leaders like Tom Dalton-Morgan, our heros are alas usually, depending on one's perspective, rather tainted individuals; the only criterion one can rely on was that they gave the enemy a much harder time than they gave their colleagues; although some that might be considered a close-run thing!(Bader).

As regards Johnson, I was once ordered (!!) to host him when he came to give an evening, informal, talk at the Staff College. For reasons I don't wish to expand on, I found him a singulary unpleasant individual. Nevertheless, I greatly admired his exploits, his courage and, mostly, the bloody-mindedness which drove him, and ultimately the, by inclination peace-loving, British nation on. Ultimately, where would we have been without such egregiously bullish individuals; alas, in PC-Britain I suspect such people would be viewed as being mad enough to warrant a spot of 'care in the community'.

[Tim Mills]

I'm very glad Jacko mentioned Mickey Martin some posts ago. He was SASO at Episcopi when I was a very junior Sqn Ldr on his staff. As well as having the obvious reputation one would expect as one of the Dambusters, and having more medals after his name than anyone I had met before, he was a delightful gentleman, with none of the pomposity and self importance one got a bit used to now and again. I'm inclined to think it may have been because he was an Aussie, which is one reason I so enjoy living here in my declining years!

One of his dinner party tricks, which no doubt has been done often enough, but I'd never seen it before, involved lighting the dregs of Keo brandy in the bottom of the bottle, and placing a peeled banana in the neck of the bottle, so it was gradually sucked down into the bottle. Looked pretty disgusting, but very funny, and not what might happen at most SASOs dinner parties!

One of the good ones in all respects.