Dick Smith's Media Release for Monday 20 Sep 04

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Lifted in entirety from http://www.dicksmithflyer.com.au The breathtaking arrogance of this man whilst an investigation into the Benalla accident is underway is absolutely shameful...............

Direct link here: http://www.dicksmithflyer.com.au/Content.php?ContentID=311


Benalla airspace upgrade delayed
MEDIA RELEASE MONDAY 20 SEPTEMBER 2004
BENALLA AIRSPACE UPGRADE DELAYED

DICK SMITH TAKES AIRSERVICES AUSTRALIA TO COURT
Aviation reformer and former Civil Aviation Safety Authority Chairman Dick Smith will be in the Federal Court at 10.15am on the morning of Tuesday 21 September (at the Law Courts Building, Queens Square, Sydney) in a legal action aimed at preventing Airservices Australia from reversing Government policy on airspace reform.


Dick Smith says, “The Airservices Board intends to reverse the NAS (National Airspace System) reforms on 25 November 2004 and return to a 1930s system where air traffic controllers operate as if blindfolded without radar.


Dick Smith says, “If ever there has been an example of the conflict between a profit making body also regulating air safety, this is it.


“This reversal of the NAS policy will delay for many years the introduction of the airspace upgrades at smaller airports. Under the NAS system, airports with instrument approaches, such as Benalla, will be upgraded from Class G airspace to Class E controlled airspace.


“This is the safer US based NAS system, however because of a lack of leadership its introduction has been resisted and frustrated,” Dick Smith says.


“The pilot at Benalla was forced to operate in “do it yourself”, “dirt road” Class G uncontrolled airspace, whereas with the Government policy, NAS, the pilot would have operated in higher safety Class E airspace and would be “cleared” and “directed” by air traffic control instructions using radar to the instrument approach point.


“Even if the pilot had keyed the incorrect approach point into the navigation system, the air traffic controller would be required by law to advise the pilot and direct the aircraft by radar to the correct location,” Dick Smith says.


“If the Class E upgrade had gone ahead at the original planned date (June 1993) air safety would be clearly improved,” Dick Smith says.


Dick Smith says, “I understand the present attitude by Airservices management is that if an aircraft is in Class G airspace, it is not their responsibility. In effect, “If radar shows the pilot is off course it’s his problem, not ours.” This is supported by the fact that Airservices do not even have all of the Class G approach waypoints installed in their $350 million advanced air traffic control system.


Dick Smith says, “This is extraordinarily slack and irresponsible. A current Jeppesen database for the whole of Australia would cost less than $300.


“The mentality with Airservices management is still back in the 1950s when Flight Service Officers operated Class G airspace without radar.


Dick Smith says, “In the USA with the NAS, radar is used to the maximum extent. Wherever Instrument Flight Rules aircraft fly approaches they have controlled airspace and pilots follow air traffic control instructions.


“Our controllers are as good as any in the world,” Dick Smith says, “it is the training and procedures that are 50 years out of date. If the NAS reforms are reversed on the 25th November, more lives will undoubtedly be lost.

[tobzalp]

In related news it is talk like a pirate day tomorrow

Ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar!!!!!

http://research.amnh.org/users/leighty/pirate.jpg

[SM4 Pirate]

Not happy Plazbot! Take my photo down... I haven't got my stuffed parrot or eye patch on...

[Uncommon Sense]

Dick,

Won't this look a little suspicious when you become the Director of the new Airspace Directorate after the election (proxied by a certain current ASA board member of course)? Assuming calamity John's party is returned.

Perhaps, considering your rumoured arrangement to dismiss the ASA board, it would be best if you kept a somewhat lower profile?

If that is at all possible!

Of course - it is all rumour - I may be waaay off the mark.

[tobzalp]

OMG GUESS WHO!!!!!!!11one!!!!!!!


http://users.bigpond.net.au/plazbot/pirate.jpg

http://users.bigpond.net.au/plazbot/hahanet.jpg

[Icarus2001]

“Even if the pilot had keyed the incorrect approach point into the navigation system, the air traffic controller would be required by law to advise the pilot and direct the aircraft by radar to the correct location,” Dick Smith says. whereas with the Government policy, NAS, the pilot would have operated in higher safety Class E airspace and would be “cleared” and “directed” by air traffic control instructions using radar to the instrument approach point.

Dick congratulations. You are a master of short, sharp snappy, media friendly quotes. On the surface for Joe Public in election land they sound logical, rational and down right common sense.

However to those of who earn our living in this industry everyday! they are complete and utter rubbish.

Your PR savvy is fantastic, your understanding of airspace procedures is tenuous to say the least!

whereas with the Government policy, NAS, the pilot would have operated in higher safety Class E airspace

Tell me. How do you keep a straight face, I'd love to know. Unless you actually believe the nonsenese you spout. In which case you need professional help.

[CaptainMidnight]

I suggest everyone hold back from countering his arguments on this one - let him sink himself.

He uses the expertise here instead of having to pay someone to do the research, and so unwittingly we've probably helped him on many occasions.

[gaunty]

CaptainMidnight

Wise advice indeed.

[flichik]

gee whizzz

This little club of six, plus "all things to all people" gaunty do get upset when the other side fires a shot back.

Since coming on here a few weeks ago I have found that ONLY TWO of you are prepared to listen and respond to reasoned debate, but you get soooo upset when the other side 'aka Dick' does the same.

Wake up to yourselves!!!

Shirl

[Uncommon Sense]

Since coming on here a few weeks ago

Ahem.

Kind of says it all really.



Moving Sale
Kirribilli House
October 9
Everything must go (some furnishings slightly knawed)

[CaptainMidnight]

flichik

You need to do some research on PPRuNe - search for "NAS" titles over at least the past year, grab a coffee and have a read. This one (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=133791) is probably a good place to start - it's the thread involving a one-on-one debate between Voices of Reason and Dick. Take the time to do the research.

This "debate" isn't a new thing - it's been going on here for at least the last two years.



I can assure you Shirl is well versed on the NAS debate in PPRuNe!

Woomera

[TIMMEEEE]

And just whom, prey tell is paying for this expensive little extravaganza???

Jamming the courts unncessarily is one thing, but Dick has now taken his arrogance to the next level.

Thank Christ this deranged person doesnt run for parliament !!

[robroy]

PROMISE,

Cheers,

robroy

[flichik]

Like Mr Gaunt says, I am well versed in NAS, just not overly interested anymore.

What I do see is two sides locked in an intractible debate with neither giving ground.

I suggest you (your 'side') and Dick (and his 'side') go read a book called "Getting to Yes, the Art of Negotiation"

Shirl

[Blue Sky Baron]

I think you might find it easier to solve the problems in the Middle East than solve the problems with :8 Dick.


:hmm: BSB

[Atlas Shrugged]

Plonk........................!!http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/toiletsmilie.gif

[Uncommon Sense]

Somebody else can 'negotiate' with Dick.

My goodwill with that creature is all used up.

[mjbow2]

Dick,

thanks for fighting for NAS. You have my support.

MJB

[WALLEY2]

Dick,

This legal action does not sit well coming from one who originally proposed a 10nm CTAF(USA) in G class for Broome and Ayers Rock. Remember you said "not one pilot would fail to make a recommended call or you would have failed and you have never failed!" and that by having a CAGRS at Broome "I had just become a retirement home for ex ATC and FSS operators."

You unlike us have never financed a study of G class terminal airspace, infact you have continually in recent private life and when in position of influence always resisted such studies with regards to NAS.

You are now seeking injunctive releif from AsA after they have done extensive industry consultations and studies of NAS 2b. I am sure you will quickly reteat or fail to get relief as you would have been advised that any cost incurred would be payable by the plaintiff if the injunction was later shown to be incorrect or spurious.

If this action in anyway adversely effects Broome International Airport we will seek to join AsA or act seperately to recover all costs.

AsA executives pleased be advised that the statements I make above were witnessed and I will sign a declaration to that effect.

Minister Anderson, I and others expect that Mr Smiths action makes his position as an adviser to you untenable, this conflict, your last minute direction for RADAR in Class C Airspace and your duty in this matter will be raised in the public domain Australia wide.

This is the least we can do to support the AsA executives who now have to divert their attention and efforts on yet another attack on their integrity.

Mike Caplehorn

[OVER THE TOP]

Somebody should submit to the court hearing the latest copy of “Flight safety Australia” magazine.
The story about the mid air collision between the Tupolev TU 154M and the Boeing 757 freighter provides an example of why we need an acceptable level of safety within our airspace system. Although this accident happened entirely inside controlled airspace, this article would provide food for thought for anybody whose job was to make a decision regarding the validity of Dick’s little protest.
I especially like the comments regarding the use of GPWS as a last line of defence and the requirement that “any significant safety related change to the ATC system………… should only be affected after a safety assessment has demonstrated that an acceptable level of safety will be met and all users have been consulted……….”
A tragic story on many levels

[Bizpax]

Wally2
on behalf of all Australian passengers, I would like to thank you and your management and also the experts within and hired by AirServices Australia for the protracted efforts you have made to protect our safety. Having now managed to read both your report and the world-leading risk analyses performed on behalf of ASA, I wish to congratulate you on the quality and professionalism displayed in countering the spurious, mind-bending, gob-smacking crap that Dick throws at anyone who gets in his way. The risk analyses conducted by ASA are of world standard and the cost benefit analyses irrefutable -well done all!

Walley, thanks for putting your money where your mouth is -unfortunately too many of us are dependent on the industry to come out publicly and fight this little p###k. I'm hoping that if the case goes ahead and Dick doesn't display his usual cut and come again style, the facts will be on public display in court. Any chance of taking him to the cleaners?

Eternally grateful and looking forward to getting to Broome...

[WALLEY2]

BIZPAX

Thanks for your comment I will pass them on to the consulting team, I agree that AsA has done a great job unfortunately this makes Dicks action all the more inappropriate and annoying.

Be assured if he leaves any door open for action we will take it. During the course of this debate I have come to realise we are one of the few able to take him on where there is an even playing field. I would love to get into a court with our DAS vs his and the sceptics reports.

The thought of a QC cross examining him on the twists and turns of his statements on NAS brings a smile to my face as would the puzzled look of the judge as the ineptness of his contradictory statements unfolds.

However I am sure he will not let that happen, far to cunning. Mr Anderson will feel the heat if he does not take action on this latest farce. We have four marginal seats in WA and a little funding goes a long way. Plus public knowledge of his gutless inaction todate will not help them, it is his choice do the right thing or take the consequences.

[QSK?]

Dick:

There are only two words that I can use to describe both your court action and your reference to the unfortunate event at Benalla, which is still under investigation by the ATSB.

BL**DY DISCRACEFUL !

As a former Board Member and Chairman of various service provider and regulatory institutions charged with the delivery of aviation safety services, even I would have thought you would've shown more decency, maturity, discretion and sensitivity befitting your previous aviation management roles. Your actions clearly demonstrate you possess none of these desirable qualities.

Surely, the Government must now see that Dick Smith ,by his actions, is totally UNSUITABLE to occupy any position of influence in the management of Australia's airspace resource.

[missy]

Federal Court of Australia
For Hearing on Tuesday 21 September, 2004
FEDERAL COURT OF AUSTRALIA
LAW COURTS BUILDING, SYDNEY


JUSTICE STONE - COURT: 21C
10:15 AM
(Directions and Notice of Motion)
RICHARD HAROLD SMITH -v-
AIRSERVICES AUSTRALIA
N1351/04

[WALLEY2]

Interview on ABC AM Programme


Pprune contributers,

During an interview on ABC AM Programme to be aired this morning I have strongly critisied the lack of action by Mr Anderson. Advising that the continued presence of Mr D Smith as an adviser to the Minister as untenable due to his court action against AsA.

I view the Ministers actions on this issue as displaying he is not across this issue and is in not reading the safety cases; or failing to understand them.

I raise the matter of the waste in tax payer and pax taxes as inappropriate for a party claiming they are good managers of the economy.

Finally I find his lack of action on this matter diplays a lack of rigor as he is failing to take action in defending an Authority under his portfolio.

This farce needs to be stopped, by him, now.

That is the content of my interview, I hope others who can will back me up on this matter.

Mike Caplehorn

[karrank]

Onya Mike. Missed the interview but they're playing grabs from it on the news.

[PRD]

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2004/s1203614.htm


Dick Smith takes aviation regulator to court AM - Tuesday, 21 September , 2004 08:24:50
Reporter: Sarah Clarke
TONY EASTLEY: In an unprecedented move, a former chief of the Civil Aviation Authority in Australia, Dick Smith, is taking the national aviation regulator to court over its decision to rollback the contentious airspace rules that he helped support.

Mr Smith, who authored the US-style aviation plan, will this morning go to the Federal Court.

Sarah Clarke from the ABC's Investigative Unit reports.

SARAH CLARKE: Since the new airspace rules were introduced last November, the chair of Air Services Australia has resigned, two senior air traffic controllers have quit and last month the aviation regulator declared some of the reforms unsafe.

As a result it voted to have the changes wound back. That's infuriated the driving force behind these reforms, and today Dick Smith's taking his fight to the Federal Court.

DICK SMITH: Well, I'm taking Air Services to court to see if I can somehow stop the reversal of the airspace reforms, which will mean that controllers will have to operate as if they were blindfolded, without radar, which is the old 1930's system.

It's an attempt to stop us winding back the reforms which have been very successful.

SARAH CLARKE: It's an extraordinary step for the former CASA chief, and one even he describes as bizarre. The motion is listed in his name as a private pilot and as an official adviser to the Government on airspace reform.

He describes the regulator's decision as "so unreasonable that no reasonable person could have made that decision".

Air Services Australia will fight his action vigorously, with the support of the Australian Federation of Airline Pilots, who believe Dick Smith's airspace changes put passenger aircraft at risk.

President, Richard Higgins.

RICHARD HIGGINS: It's akin to the behaviour of a spoilt child who doesn't get his way, so he's got to try and have a go, legally, and all it's doing is putting the travelling public, together with my pilots, putting them at risk of an imminent collision, and that's absolutely insane that he should be doing that.

SARAH CLARKE: This series of events has delayed attempts to reform aviation rules over the last 12 months.

Mike Caplehorn runs Broome International Airport, and says this latest step into the Federal Court is an act of "lunacy" and the final straw, and the Transport Minister John Anderson must take control.

MIKE CAPLEHORN: It is just absolutely ridiculous. How can a minister allow one of his advisers to take Federal Court action against one of his own authorities that work under his portfolio? He's got an adviser running amok, he's got to stop it.

TONY EASTLEY: Chairman of Broome International Airport, Mike Caplehorn, ending that report from Sarah Clarke.

[gaunty]

WALLEY2

You can be absolutely assured of mine and my colleagues.

I think we are up to near a quarter of a billion $s spent treating Smiths obsessions and the body count continues to rise by the day.

Calls from the media yesterday suggests they've finally woken up to it.

They have as is usual also been monitoring events here for the balance against the relentless spin.

It's been tamped down for the moment and I suspect the Government might be trying hard to make it go away, it could be counterproductive for them if they did.

Either way they both lose. And their little mate puts em in it right in the middle of an election, ironic is word that comes to mind.

I choose to cling to the notion that Anderson is a truly one of the last real gentlemen in Parliament, surrounded by a bunch of knaves.

As you suggest Smith would not handle expert cross well at all and I for one would take the time to come and watch.

It might well be the only way we can be rid of him so we can get on with aviation in this country.

Mr Smith started this all on his own, it's an "own goal", with a little help from his "friends", it might be time to finish it once and for all for him AND them.

I don't imagine it has ever occurred to Smith, that every time he pulls one of these lunatic stunts he puts yet another bullet hole into the riddled carcasse of GA aviation and the confidence of the travelling public .
He must be fnding it hard to find a place that hasn't already got one of his.

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

Mike and Gary

Check your PM's

[gaunty]

Here's what Crikey reckons;

11. Dick Smith's latest defamatory dalliances


Once again Richard Harold (aka Dick) Smith flies perilously close to what can only be described as defamation. He accuses everyone from Qantas to the air traffic control for the tragic accident that claimed 6 lives near Benalla. Read the interim accident report here.

Only Mr Smith would claim to be able to determine the cause of a fatal air crash without looking at a single piece of evidence, visiting the crash site, conducting interviews, reviewing any records or any of the normal procedures of an air accident investigation.

Before the Australian Transportation Safety Bureau (ATSB) has even released its findings, Mr Smith is already claiming that there was a cover up by the ATSB on behalf of Qantas in relation to another incident that occurred a few days before the Benalla crash. The incident he refers to involved a Qantas Boeing 737 flying from Perth to Canberra where it descended too low prior to landing. Mr Smith would have us all believe that if the ATSB and Qantas had announced the incident to the public immediately, before any formal investigation had occurred and before any of the actual facts were known, then the Benalla crash could have been avoided.

The ATSB is set up as an independent entity for the express purpose of being objective in its investigations, a fact that frustrated Mr. Smith during the time of his appointment at the Civil Aviation Safety Authority. Any suggestion that the ATSB is complicit in a cover up involving Qantas is ludicrous.

Back to the Qantas incident. A Qantas Boeing 737 was on descent into Canberra after a night flight from Perth. It arrived in the Canberra area prior to first light to find that the air traffic control facility was closed. The pilots elected to continue with the approach as per the procedures normally conducted in this situation. They made what appears to be a data entry error and found themselves flying too far away from the navigation facility at Church Creek while descending.

The ATSB does not have access to Mr Smith’s telepathic powers. Instead, they have to rely on physical evidence such as flight data recorders, tapes of radar data, pilot testimonies and so on. So far the only facts that are publicly available are those in the interim reports available here.

It indicates the aircrafts distance from the terrain below was 2,500 feet and the crew received a low level ‘soft’ warning from the onboard aircraft system that prompted a climb. The pilots reported the incident to Qantas who in turn reported to ATSB.

Mr Smith has sought to stop changes to Australian airspace via the Federal Court. He claims that both the Qantas incident and Benalla accident could have been avoided if the Australian airspace structure was designed to his specifications. Mr Smith sees no foul in using the brother of one of the Benalla victims to shower himself with media coverage for his court case.

Mr Smiths warning to Perth passengers of the danger in flying QF to Canberra at night or in weather, twice, on an ABC talkback, and wherein he suggested the aircraft was below the mountain tops and in imminent danger were followed by a statement from CASAs Peter Gibson on the same programme the following day and was inter-alia;

" the aircraft never came closer than 2,000 feet to the ground and investigations continue."

The interview was a genuine, beautifully minted masterpiece of disinformation and self serving propaganda.

And the most irresponsible scaremongering action in aviation terms I have heard in a looooong time.

The talkback host and his part time host took it hook line and sinker and they swallowed the bait, I presume therefore so did their audience. Ex CASA boss twice 'n all. :{

If anyone wants a recording, PM me and I'll send you one.

[YCKT]

Geeez Gaunty.

While not caring to comment on the post, I am surprised even you would quote such a 'reputable' source as crikey.com

A subscriber are you :E

[gaunty]

Wise move and I'm amazed that you hadn't worked out that I am actually a cupboard socialist amongst other things. Simple to work out I am not. :p

Been a crikey subscriber and occasional contributor since almost day 1. :D

[Binoculars]

YCKT,

You are rather desperately clutching at straws seeking to pooh- pooh Crikey's credibility while refusing to answer the points made.

I doubt that Gaunty and I would find ourselves on the same side of the political fence on too many things, but the fact that we agree on the effectiveness of www.crikey.com.au as perhaps the only independent news/opinion site in the Australian media should alert you that you can't dismiss anything found on there simply because you don't like it.

Compare if you please the major media players, all with their own clear political bias, and think again.

[Uncommon Sense]

Indeed.

In fact it is the overwhelming lack of objective and truly investigative media in Australia that has contributed to what will probably, and unfortunatley, see a return of government for Howard tomorrow.

In the US and UK there is a lot of questioning by the media of the political incumbents about why their respective countries got engaged in Iraq on flawed and untrue grounds, and questions about treatment of prisoners of war held by the US. The pressure is sustained.

Here in Australia the public are disengaged from these big picture moral and ethical issues - the media seem to accept at face value when Howard, Downer and Ruddock dismiss it all with an arrogant wave of the hand and a mumble about 'intelligence at the time'. The problem is the media don't probe it.

Hardly surprising when you see Murdoch and Packer openly endorsing Howard. Hardly appropriate for media owners is it?.

That is why sites like Crikey are so important - the readership is not that great but it is growing quickly.

Hugh MacKay, the social researcher, reveals that the Australian public have disengaged from the political debate this election and have taken a very shallow stand on the parties - more concerned about a few pieces of silver than the issues that should affect theri concscience. It was backed up by pollsters and social researchers - to their universal dismay.

A product of the reality TV show generation? Who knows.

But Australia seems to have changed in to a much less caring, introspective and self obsessed society - coincident or otherwise with the reign of King Johnny.

Maybe we will end up with the government we deserve tomorrow, until we somehow regain a more esoteric view of the world.

A questioning and fearless media will help. Right now we don't have it. Supporting alternative media sources will help get it back.

[gaunty]

And to be even handed this minutes ago form Crikey



12. Dick Smith on the ATSB

Dick Smith writes:

Surely the saving of lives is more important than defamation action. Despite your article headed “Dick Smith’s latest defamatory dalliances” I have not claimed to have determined the cause of the fatal crash at Benalla.

I have however made it quite clear that Airservices do not use their radar properly to help prevent such crashes.

I have also made it clear that the ATSB is too close to the airlines and Airservices Australia. For example, the American equivalent to the ATSB, the NTSB (National Transport Safety Board) issues a preliminary report for an accident or serious incident within days. In the case of the serious Qantas incident at Canberra, it was two months before the story leaked via the Professional Pilots Rumour Network.

Of course the ATSB is not always consistent. With the so-called “incidents” at Launceston and Brisbane in relation to the introduction of the US airspace system in Australia (which the ATSB does not want) I note that they were making media comments within days. In the case of the Canberra Qantas incident it is very serious that the ATSB did not come clean right at the start as this is necessary to prevent further accidents.

Qantas were flying 1,600ft below the minimum safe altitude in darkness, playing a form of Russian roulette with the mountains which could have been 600ft higher than the altitude of the aircraft. Yes, I agree that at the time the Terrain Warning Unit alarm went off the ground was 2,500ft below. This was just luck. There could have been a mountain right in front of the aircraft.

Crikey appears to have a firm belief that Canberra bureaucracies are always competent. I suggest you ask the investors in HIH what they think of another four letter Government authority – APRA.

I have never claimed that the Qantas incident and the Benalla accident could have been avoided if the Australian airspace structure was designed to my specifications. I have said that they most likely would not have happened if Airservices had followed Government policy and introduced the US “NAS” airspace in Australia. That is because in the USA, all airspace used for instrument approaches is controlled airspace and pilots follow air traffic control directions using radar rather than a do it yourself, calling in the blind system.

Regards
Dick Smith



from an 720 ABC talk back radio interview with Liam Bartlett in Perth.

I’ll tell you the reason, the reason the need to change is that we’re going to have, we’re going to have crashes. Both of these, both the accident that killed six people if we’d bought in the modern international airspace system, made it controlled, that wouldn’t have happened, six people would have been alive today. This, this situation with Qantas that I’m describing to you, it was in, you can’t believe it, it was over Canberra, our Federal Capital, but it was in Class G, which is the dirt road airspace, uncontrolled airspace, blundering around at night. :confused:

[Icarus2001]

This stuff really is priceless!:ugh:

I have never claimed that the Qantas incident and the Benalla accident could have been avoided if the Australian airspace structure was designed to my specifications.
No attempt to pretend it is the accepted & safe US system there!:ok:
That is because in the USA, all airspace used for instrument approaches is controlled airspace and pilots follow air traffic control directions using radar rather than a do it yourself, calling in the blind system.
So does that mean Twohorse Town Airstrip, that has a GPS-NPA mainly because the RFDS fly there, will now become controlled airspace? What sort of controlled airspace Dick ? C or E or D?

This only goes to show how incompatible the US airspace system is with Australia.

[Chimbu chuckles]

It's very sad:( in a fun:O sort of way to watch this tool self destruct:ok: :E

[Ogsplash]

I have refrained from commenting on DS actions despite having seen him 'lose it' at a meeting in Perth several years ago. I figured he would eventually 'go away'. I guess I was wrong.

But what really has my gander up now are his scurrilous accusations of the ATSB. While no organisation is perfect, in the 7 years I was in it I never saw the ATSB ever show favouritism to any organisation. Indeed, it went out of its way to be fair and not show favour.

People like DS appear to sprout accusations with no basis in fact, maybe because it panders to the popular press and the simpletons who believe in conspiracy theories behind every bush. I spent many a frustrated moment in the ATSB wanting it to respond to the likes of DS but the hierarchy chose to stay silent much of the time so as to not give any credence to such mutterings.

The likes of DS refuse to listen, refuse to back up any accusations with fact and appear to continue to get away with sprouting crap because they are rich and enjoy political favour.

When will they go away and let a professional approach to aviation in Australia prevail?

[gaunty]

Can someone refresh my memory about the aborted "G" airspace trials and Mr Smiths part in them?

And why he now refers to "G" airspace as dirt road?

I'm getting confused.:confused:

[Uncommon Sense]

It's not you that's confused Gaunty. It is the strange and mysterious battle of the various minds of Mr Smith.

When this all starts up again next week, all I can say is:

Dont Blame Me : I Voted Labor.

[because I have a conscience]

Good Luck Australia.

[gaunty]

Uncommon Sense

Relieved I am, I think.

My subconcious will struggle tonight with a fine dilemma, assuming I don't shut it down with a fine red or three. :cool:

Which is the lesser evil. :confused:

My closet socialist id fights with my Liberal background and breeding. :E

Hang on,Trev my next door neighbour psychiatrist just turned up with a cuppla reds, he is dead set Labour.............it's going to be an interesting night, our wives have fled to a movie and a meal, better order the thin crust and we'll have at it.:p

I will give you our verdict on the worries of the world in the morning, if I remember to write it down. :rolleyes:
You know the drill, the next am, it was ALL so clear the night before. :{

[Binoculars]

Wish I could join you Gaunty.

Aviation is a conservative and self-interested industry, and I rarely bother getting involved in political discussions with its participants.

Over the last eight years I have taken faith in the fact that we are one of the lucky countries that gets the government we actually vote for. If it's not the one you want, well, be grateful that our system of checks and balances guarantees he's not going to be a murderous tyrant and that the will of the people prevails, no matter how uninformed that will may appear to be to those who disagree with the result.

This time I feel sad. Apart from the possibility of mass vote for Labor in Qld marginals, it appears apathy is going to rule. Scare tactics (how long are they going to keep bringing up 18% interests rates under Whitlam?) and a massively irresponsible spending spree designed purely to get Howard across the line as second-longest serving PM, together with the combined help of Murdoch and Packer, mean the Coalition will win tomorrow.

This is the 21st century version of the 1969 election. The true believers think it will happen, but it's still three years away. Unlike most people I would have no objection to a coalition government with Costello in charge, but the thought of this nasty blinkered little liar with not a hint of a vision or an agenda continuing to drag Australia's reputation down through sheer self-interest is almost too much to bear.

Somebody please tell me when he will surpass Hawke as second longest serving PM so I have some idea of how long we will have to put up with his self-serving lies.

Woomera, I could put in something about the execrable Anderson as an aviation-related matter to justify this post, but I ask that you let this run. After all the election result will probably be known in 24 hours. The other members of the Iraqi triumvirate have their long running threads on JB. We appear to be stuck with this as the closest thing. It would be a shame if such short term political commentary were banned when it will become irrelevant in a day's time.

As a disclaimer here, I declare on my mother's grave that I have never voted Labor in my life, but please let a minor miracle occur tomorrow.

[Tunnan]

Like Ogsplash, I have not previously commented on Smith’s rantings, so as not to legitimize their credibility.

However, his latest effort regarding the QF incident really is completely over the top, and an outrageous and objectionable insult to all aviation professionals.

With this latest missive, Smith unequivocally reveals yet again, but this time even more clearly, his total amateurish, and abysmal ignorance of airline operations, air safety investigation, aviation systems, and aerospace technology.

And this is the man who ‘advises the Government’ on aviation.

With this kind of ‘advice’ it is easy to understand the reasons for the present NAS debacle.

Smith states:

‘Qantas were flying 1,600ft below the minimum safe altitude in darkness, playing a form of Russian roulette with the mountains which could have been 600ft higher than the altitude of the aircraft. Yes, I agree that at the time the Terrain Warning Unit alarm went off the ground was 2,500ft below. This was just luck. There could have been a mountain right in front of the aircraft’.

The statement would be laughable if it were not so pathetically, and tragically, ignorant.

This sensationalist rubbish comes from the ‘aviation authority’ the media so often turns to, no doubt in search of an instant headline.

To draw an analogy, if the Australian media wanted authoritative information on brain surgery, would they turn to a bloke who has taught himself a bit about first aid?

Luck had absolutely nothing to do with the QF incident. First class systems, good airmanship, and adherence to SOPs did. At no stage were the aircraft and its occupants in any danger.

His statements above show quite clearly that Smith has no knowledge whatsoever of the EGPWS system with which the QF B737 was equipped.

The aircraft’s EGPWS system contains a highly accurate terrain and obstacle database, and, using GPS-based references, it knows precisely where the aircraft is at all times in relation to terrain and obstacles. EGPWS warnings are activated accordingly, and appropriately.

The EGPWS system is perfectly aware if ‘there is a mountain in front of it’.

Russian Roulette? Blundering around at night? Luck? Only a fool would make such stupid claims.

Such statements are doubly tragic in their demonstrated ignorance of the real world of airline operations by a high profile adviser to the government. They are frightening evidence of the appalling level of quality of that advice. Worst of all, these kind of statements disseminate self-serving, destructive, scare-mongering and malevolent misinformation about aviation to the general public, the vast majority of whom have no specialist knowledge by means of which they could judge the veracity of such ridiculous, false and defamatory assertions.

As all professional and informed aviation people know, the EGPWS (Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System) was introduced into commercial aviation largely as an outcome of the investigation of the AA B757 CFIT accident that occurred near Cali, in Colombia, on 20 December, 1995.

For its development of EGPWS, AlliedSignal Aerospace, Commercial Systems Division, won the Flight International Aerospace Industry Award in the Air Transport category in 1997.

Quoting from the citation:

"The EGPWS, which won US certification in 1996, integrates the latest advances in navigation and terrain-database technology, together with the traditional benefits of GPWS.

By doing this, the new system provides a full 60s advanced warning of hazardous terrain. A conventional GPWS may give pilots as little as 10s to take avoiding action. The system is also the first to allow pilots to select a visual display of hazardous terrain below and ahead of the aircraft - crucial in poor visibility or darkness".

The EGPWS system is designed to ensure that, if an aircraft should come into potential conflict with terrain or obstacles, due, for example, to data entry errors made by the crew, phased alerts and warnings are provided in ample time to ensure the complete safety of the aircraft. The ATSB report shows that this is exactly what happened in the present QF incident.

(More information on EGPWS can be found at: http://www.egpws.com/general_information/description/features.htm)

Despite the ill-informed and sensationalist media reports stoked by Smith, the safe outcome of the QF incident was not luck; it demonstrated precisely what error tolerant systems in aviation are all about.

As for the absurd allegations regarding the ATSB, they are simply yet more hard evidence of the true nature and personal agenda of the writer. If there are any doubts about the objectivity, independence, courage and integrity of BASI/ATSB, have a careful read of the Systemic Investigation of the G Airspace Demonstration at: http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/sdi/gspace.cfm.

Previous evidence shows that Smith will never admit he was wrong, apologise, or issue any correcting statements on the QF incident, or any other aviation matter, regardless of the facts.

Ogsplash is spot on. It really is time Smith went as far away as possible, and let the true informed professionals in airline, government, military and general aviation organisations get on with the vital job of keeping Australian aviation safe, efficient, innovative and profitable.

[Kaptin M]

Talk about cutting to the quick :uhoh: :{

As a young Baby Boomer - well actually, I tail end that classification..as do Binos and Gaunty - I was proud of the fact that I had been raised as a Liberal voter. :ok:
Bob Menzies... The Queen.....Winston Churchill......John Gorton....and *#&* all those commie, anti-Vietnam reds!!

Gough Whitlam was an airy-fairy artsy poonce, and Joh Bee-gel-kee was the bees knees!
Boy did HE show those SEQEB striking commies!! :ok:

But, then, Bobawke arrived on the scene.
And all of a sudden the charisma of Hawkie - with his visions of a glowing tomorrow. with fast rewards and gains for minimum input - far outshone the hard sloggings, and slowly gained achievements of the past decade or so under Malcolm Fraser, and his little tyrrannical "accountant", Lil Johhny (Howard).

I voted Labor, for the first time in my life....and it FELT RIGHT!!

Of course, I didn't know then, that Bobawke was a corrupt, con/deceitful, slimey little piece of toxic, malleable plasticine, willing to sell himself to the most influential bidder.
Rupert, at that THAT time, controlled Oz poli-ticks.

And it is NOW - almost 2 decades later - that we curiously find a Minister of the Commonwealth being drawn to a "romantic".

Dick ESPOUSES (loudly) much of what HE "believes" to be correct, but is unable to back it up with FACT!!

On the other hand, a lot of what might SEEM to be boring, repititious, FACT, is precisely that!!

Don't be fooled by the "gloss"!!

Just because it's "old", it doesn't mean it's past its "Use by" date!

In THIS case, the "tried - tested - PROVEN" slogan has shown that it SUPERIOR IN SAVING LIVES, to Dick's scatter-brained system!!

[Spodman]

So does that mean Twohorse Town Airstrip, that has a GPS-NPA mainly because the RFDS fly there, will now become controlled airspace

Yes. (Probably). The endstate has 700ft E airspace over all instrument approaches. The (probably) comes in coz there is some havering about where the 1200ft E corridors will go.

My airspace design

I thought it was Qantas' idea...

[DownDraught]

I have never claimed that the Qantas incident and the Benalla accident could have been avoided if the Australian airspace structure was designed to my specifications.

and

Both of these, both the accident that killed six people if we’d bought in the modern international airspace system, made it controlled, that wouldn’t have happened, six people would have been alive today.

I marvel at the speed and depth you dig your own hole dick, keep up the bad work :ok:

[Bobster]

I notice that the newly elected member for Wakefield in SA is (or rather was) a test pilot from ARDU. Could be the ideal candidate for a certain portfolio.

[Lead Balloon]

Bobster

Isn't Dick Smith a pilot too?

By your implied logic anyone who's been on the receiving end in a particular field, or earned money in a field, is automatically qualified for the job of administering it.

[Bobster]

Lead Balloon
Reading earlier in this thread, and others, there is a call for professionals to get things running properly. Dick Smith is no aviation professional that I am aware of. Surely an ex TP would be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Just a thought.

[hermeias]

Tunnan,
You surprise me.
It is clear that the QF 737 was in the wrong place at the wrong height, well below the LSA for the area.
You say “Luck had absolutely nothing to do with the QF incident”, as if you are saying the EGPWS was a primary terrain avoidance device.
Sadly, if you look at the human factors history, warnings are not always heeded, all too often they are treated as “false warnings”. And by the way, I am all too well aware of the potential shortcomings of the EGPWS, even though it is a great improvement on the older LRRA based systems.
Fortunately, in this case, despite all factors that got them where they were, the crew did finally react as trained. Other training should have prevented then being in the situation in the first place, but it didn’t.
When it’s the last hole in the Swiss cheese that didn’t line up, that too close for comfort.
What happened to several other slices of the cheese, positive surveillance from Melbourne, the radar on Mt.Majura doesn’t shut down when the Canberra TCU shuts, where was the TAATS terrain warning ?? During the slow hours, why does Canberra revert to G instead of E??.
Far too many things happened or didn’t happen here for any complacency.
Hermeias

[Chimbu chuckles]

Bobster once upon a time I was working in a really nice corporate jet job and we got a new (non flying)manager..ex Australian Army pilot one week retired from the army as a LtCol. He destroyed the operation in 6 months and was the most dishonest and incompetent individual I have ever come across in aviation. Previous/current qualifications as a pilot are no indication of skill in other areas...honesty and an ability to listen to qualified experts (as opposed to nutcases with a proven bad track record) work as part of a team and have no hidden adjendas is a good place to start. This chap from SA might be fantastic but I bet he won't be given the opportunity.

hermeias.

Why is it clear they were below MSA/MORA/LSA? I think I'd rather wait for the report myself. In a previous life we used to set off the GPWSs regularly...if visual/day we could just say "Noted visual" ...if not we climbed as per SOP. Why is it not deemed feasible that the QF crew were at LSA and got a spurious warning? They do happen you know...but at night you have no option than to react as per SOPs....as far as I understand QF crews don't have the option of ignoring GPWS warnings when visual. LSA/MORA/MSA give 1000' buffer to the highest terrain within a defined area at the altitudes they were flying at...it is not uncommon to get a 'hard' warning when approaching terrain at a higher rate than the black box can cope with but still never break a minimum safe altitude. As I understand it they recieved a warning 2500' above the obstacle....hardly worth reporting me thinks.

[gaunty]

Chuckles;

Seems like the Bobbsey twins have come out to play, I suppose it was inevitable now that the election is over.:p

I'm with you, there is much yet to be revealed on both the Benalla and QF reports, some of which might be very surprising, but we'll just have to wait and see.

Whatever the results may be after, nothing can justify Mr Smiths outrageous and irresponsible behaviour and statements regarding prior

Problem is we know that Smith and his mates are non pareil at conflating disparate issues with discursive polemic to have the sky fall in on demand, but the public sail along thinking they know of which they speak.:{

[AIRWAY]

Hello,

And if anyone is interested there is a short article on Flight International today, relating to this action by Mr D. Smith towards Air Services Australia...

Regards,
AIRWAY

[DirtyPierre]

And if anyone is interested there is a short article on Flight International today, relating to this action by Mr D. Smith towards Air Services Australia...

Just great, more international embarrassment for Australia cause of Dick.

[ferris]

When it’s the last hole in the Swiss cheese that didn’t line up, that too close for comfort. Sounds like the perfect argument for why NAS shouldn't have been 'live-trialled' (TCAS and all that).

I love talking about Dick's contribution, when quizzed on the matter in an international setting.:ok:

[UFB]

Any truth in the rumour that, after receiving Airservices' NAS documentation, DickS. is withdrawing from his court action and loooking for an out-of-court settlement ???

[tobzalp]

What sort of out of court settlement? How could that be possible?

[gaunty]

UFB

No but I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if it wasn't true.

It would be nowabouts that the discovery process would have progressed a fair way along the put up or shut trail.

Smiths statements to others that he was prepared to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on this case is IMHO many orders of magnitude short of the real cost, try more than 6 figures.
That's a lot of money in an attempt to polish an ego with a very high probability of being found stark staring naked.

Settlement? for my money it should be him paying his piper and Airservices costs plus punitive damages and a formal public apology.

tobzalp

Dontcha hate that when you are preparing a post.......?

I am no lawyer but part of the "price" of withdrawal might be that as a result of that withdrawal Airservices have been denied the right to defend some very serious allegations and are therefore disadvantaged.
You can't, just for example take very visible private action against someone you think might be say a paedophile or in this case endangering the public, then having started the process just withdraw and walk away and not expect the aggrieved party to seek a remedy for relief. Especially when you hold a circus outside and inside their courts.
The courts take a very dim view of being used for such mischief.

You always have the right to be heard in a court but expect to get both barrels if you are found to have used the court for mischievous purpose without a reasonable foundation in fact. The responsibility for supervising that, as far as I understand it is the function of your solicitor.
They are officers of the court and bound to serve it. i.e. if you ask them to solicit a barrister to take an action to the courts on your behalf they must have a reasonably sustainable brief otherwise they will find it hard to find a respected barrister to take it on.
They both have an obligation to you to advise you of the likelihood of its success.
Their job and legal obligation is to find out how you might win and use their utmost skills to run your case, but if the defendent of a civil action or prosecutor, have say a cuppla hundred certifiably expert witnesses, public and private video and audio pointing at you holding the smoking gun, the best they can do is negotiate, what I think thay call in the US a "plea bargain". It's a bit back to front in a civil case but you know what I mean.

Remember they also have legal reputations to protect and have to live with the courts on a day to day basis.

If they find that they have not been provided with the full facts, the weight of which moves against their client, against which they must argue the case, and that is what the discovery process (you show me yours and I'll show you mine) is all about, they have the ability to decline to continue, if on their advice their client insists on doing so.
I think under certain circumstances they may even have to apply to the court to be released.

It's all in the balance and perspective and the principle of the court not being abused as a personal weapon. At least that is the way it's supposed to work.
Thankfully the judiciary remain the final arbiters of this process and are by the Separation of Powers enshrined in our constitution not subject to personal patronage or political pressure.

But I'm sure there are those who are actually expert on these matters who can correct on the finer points of the above.

[NAMPS]

What sort of out of court settlement?

May be something like...

1. Proceedings be dismissed.

2. No order as to costs.

:ok:

[CaptainMidnight]

Sources tell me the parties were in court today. You guys might be pretty close the the mark, UFB & gaunty :ok:

The overwhelming evidence supporting Airservices's case might have motivated a face-saving exercise.