Airspace Reform - WHAT NEXT?

[karrank]

I think the NAS reform enthusiasts are in the same position now as ATC & airline pilots were exactly one year ago. The training machine is cranking up, but nobody really believes anything will be implemented in November. There is no other reason to hold a protest AFTER the implementation unless you really believe it's not gunna happen:8

So for a moment lets entertain the view that stuff DOES happen on 25th November, what should come next if reforms are to continue? How about this for a start?

:8 Traffic service only to and about VFR in C airspace outside radar coverage. Clearance still required.

:8 Acknowledge there are advantages to having eyeballs clear of cloud in VFR aircraft and the 3 or 5NM by radar applicable between 2 IFR aircraft may be overkill - VFR aircraft shall be separated from VFR/IFR aircraft that weigh more than 19,000 pounds and turbojets by no less than:
1. 1 1/2 miles separation, or
2. 500 feet vertical separation

:8 @rsehole the confusing cr@p from the dark ages in MATS about traffic and implement the following simple description - Unless an aircraft is operating within Class A airspace or omission is requested by the pilot, issue traffic advisories to all aircraft (IFR or VFR) on your frequency when, in your judgment, their proximity may diminish to less than the applicable separation minima. Where no separation minima applies, such as for VFR aircraft outside of Class B/Class C airspace, or a TRSA, issue traffic advisories to those aircraft on your frequency when in your judgment their proximity warrants it. :8 :8

[Uncommon Sense]

Interesting point Karrank: You know the one big thing that Dick Smith has never acknowledged from the Air Traffic Controllers?

The majority of Australian ATC actually have no issue with the US Airspace system.

The issue has always been that where Dick wanted to put certain classes of Airspace was not appropriate, ill-considered and atrocioulsy implemented (the blame for which he has somehow avoided and shifted on to Airservices Australia who ironically didn't want to handle Dicks reeking 'Dead Cat' to start with) . However, The class of airspace per se was not an issue.

Like you, I think that we can actually reduce the separation minima in radar terminal areas to the same as the US. 1.5 nm if our radar is accurate enough (not counting wake turbulence considerations in trail). The 500FT with the heavy is an interesting one - I know it happens with aircraft now in G below C, but if I am flying in the G bit I will be staying right away from any Heavy I see hugging the steps.

This goes back to the origin of radar separation minima - which is very grey indeed.

It is also a subject Dick lost interest in on this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1455938&highlight=minima#post1455938)

[flichik]

What p!sses the VFR majority off is 'clearance not available, remain OCTA' usually because there is a Trash-8 in some airspace somewhere (biggest problem being Can't-berra!).

So, upgrade Syd and Melb to B. Then do away with priority in C and below.

Get rid of en-route charges for PVT IFR and the nasty little AOPA people will go away and let ATC and RPT argue airspace with dick until the pigs are cleared to land!!!

Shirl

[Uncommon Sense]

'clearance not available, remain OCTA'

OK. WHEN exactly did a DHC8 prevent a clearance being issued to you at CB?

[NAMPS]

What p!sses the VFR majority off is 'clearance not available, remain OCTA' usually because there is a Trash-8 in some airspace somewhere (biggest problem being Can't-berra!).

What nonsense. Over the years I've flown there I have never heard the phrase 'clearance not available, remain OCTA' directed at a VFR heapa.

[gaunty]

flichik

I think we've been down this road before.

'clearance not available, remain OCTA' keeps getting "quoted" as the bete noir of VFR pilots and seems to be the only raison d'etre for the amount of noise generated by them.

When I was a boy that phrase was taken at face value, flight planned or not, you could accept that they now "knew" you were there or close and could and would slot you into the traffic flow if it was at all possible. It was NOT taken as an outright denial of entry, just stay out there until I can fit you in and I was never not, I am assured by others and recent experience suggests it is still so.

On the other hand neither am I in the habit of barging into a busy road without stopping, having a good look and making sure I'm not going to get creamed by the18 wheeler I can't see yet, it's called we all get to share as long as we play by the rules and display common courtesy to others in the same playground.

And yes when I see a bus about to pull out from the stop, I let him in, merging from an on or off ramp on the freeway is simple courtesy it is not a race or cojones competition.

The paranoid BS "suing" threats for "endangering the family" for refusing a patently specious/ridiculous request in the context of that particular bit of airspace does nothing for the argument. Actually it is downright bloody arrogant.

I digress, or I might actually a little further.

We have around the corner from my house a range of very popular restaurants. If you turn up without a booking you WILL get.
'table not available, remain outside'

but what actually happens is "would you like a drink at the bar or at the bar across the road whilst we see what we can do and/or we will come and get you. Never missed once, even to the point of maybe rearranging preexisting bookings or some tables.
I DO know what happens though, when the local legend in his own lunchbox starts the "do you know who I am" routine. :rolleyes:

[Atlas Shrugged]

Gaunty,

:ok: :ok:

Flichik,

I've been operating VFR in and out of CB for the past two years about three or four times a month, and as recently as today and have never once been told "clearance not available, remain OCTA". In fact, I cannot remember even hearing it. As Gaunty said, we all get to share as long as we play by the rules and display common courtesy to others in the same playground - NOT by throwing our rattles out of the pram when we occasionally don't get exactly what we want.

A

[flichik]

A

So do I. But I think priority is an anachronism.

S

[Uncommon Sense]

I think.

I believe.

I want.

Some Facts.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Ok Flichik, Lets get this clear once and for all. You expect that the scheduled RPT aircraft who is on a schedule, and has put in a flight plan, and is paying for a service, a payment that provides the infrastructure for all users (whether they want it or not), should be held or vectored or generally delayed so you can wander on in without a delay ever. Priority, benefits the majority user of the airspace, and the majority funder of the airspace. If there is a 737 with 100 people on board and a C172 with 2 people on board, don't you think it is a little selfish to expect the 737 to be delayed to allow the 2 people to proceed unhindered. I think it is reasonable for those 2 people to wait a moment (because that is usually the worst case) and then go on their merry way. And as an aside, Dick was moaning about the military areas, and the restrictions they place on lighties. Again, his direct tracking, and convenience, is obviously more important than the training of pilots in the defence of our country. He moans about "all" the military airspace, but I would be interested to know a rough percentage of Airstralias airspace that is actually active restricted and danger areas (don't count the huge areas such as around WR, that are active once in a blue moon). I would suggest it is a tiny proportion, and gives the lighties lots of sandbox to play in. But no, they are the only people that matter, priority isn't fair, and well damn it they should fly where they want, when they want, not pay a cent, and then one day when that spikey thing on the front of their aeroplane stops spinning, well goddam it there better be someone there to help them out.

[Ultralights]

Complaints about Millitary airspace, thats a new one to me, I, (even flying my RAA registered aircraft) have never had any trouble getting a clearence through Mil airspace, though i usually only fly through Nowra or Richmond. even if i was denied, it would not bother me, as military training should take precedence above all, as they are the guys out there who put their lives on the line for our general safety. especially in these uncertain times!

[Pinky the pilot]

Only once have I ever been told
"clearance not available, remain OCTA''
And that was over 12 months ago when calling Melb. Centre taxiing a Pa31 at Latrobe Valley bound for Parafield, IFR on a cold, wet and windy Friday morning. And centre called back with the clearance just a few seconds after I selected wheels up!
:ok:

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[topdrop]

Well - I've used the phrase "Standby for clearance, remain OCTA" or "Clearance not avbl, remain OCTA" lots of times.
However, normally as soon as:
1 Flight Plan is in system
2 Acft is identified or procedural separation can be achieved
3 Landing slot is worked out
(pick one or more of above)
a clearance is given to the aircraft usually without the aircraft actually having to hold OCTA.

So while the above "awful" phrases may sound (to Dick and AOPA) like clearances are being denied, I'm actually ensuring safety and priorities with usually no (or very little) penalty at all to the pilot concerned.

[Sunfish]

As a mug idiot learner, I have never heard or had anything less than complete cooperation from the ATC people. I dips me lid to them, especially the long suffering YMMB crowd.

I do however have a point to make about RPT and GA aircraft. Airnoservices makes the point that there are 100+ people in a 737 being inconvenienced by say two in a C182.

I try and make this point when I see 1000+ people held up by a Melbourne tram carrying what 20? people, and I get nowhere. I would also suggest that said B737 is making far more $$$ for its owner than said C182.

In other words, equal charges under a user pays regime sounds fine to me, provided the QF B747 gets exactly the same priority and service level that I might get - on a per person basis.

Those of youse with economics degrees can fight it out - Adam Smith at ten paces.

[flichik]

Just because a commercial entity making money out of a national assest, like aispace, "is on a shedule" does not give them the right to expect they can delay or displace ordinary citizens in the process.

That Sir is fascism!!!

It does not happen in the US system and it should not happen here (except in B as per my previous post)

Shirl.

[Icarus2001]

flichik

displace ordinary citizens ????

The aircraft belonging to the commercial entity making money is full of these ordinary citizens
Are you honestly saying that a 737 with 120-180 people on board has equal rights to the airspace as a Cirrus with 3 POB? If so then you are mad.

Since the looney fringe like to use road analogies...Taxi ranks exist in the CBD, is this unjust? Giving a priority to a commercial entity making money but you as a private owner of a P76 cannot park there? Are they fascist? Loading bays, bus lanes, T2 and T3 lanes....mmmmmm GET IT?

It does not happen in the US system and it should not happen here Yet another unfounded claim. Where is your evidence? Try landing your Cirrus at LAX during a busy sequence!

[Jerricho]

It does not happen in the US system and it should not happen here

Wrong!

[Binoculars]

Fascism??? :confused:

To borrow from the Goons..... "and with that remark, the case of the Crown vs Flichik was proven..." :rolleyes:

Where does AOPA keep getting them from?

[Chapi]

Since the looney fringe like to use road analogies...
I wonder if I can get get Dick to support an action to allow cyclists on freeways?? Cyclists don't pay road taxes or registration ... but hey ... the freeways have nice emergency lanes they could use ... and I'm sure they'd promise to keep a lookout so that they can see and avoid all that high speed freeway traffic ...;)

[karrank]

You don't need B airspace to apply the RPT wins priority. On the other hand it is of complete indifference to me whether ML is B or C. Live it up, pick one.

I don't understand how the priority system works in the states. I know the John & Martha show said PVT flights have the same priority over there, but also know some airports flog off slot times just like Sydney.

Agree that buses have priority lanes & special parking areas on our roads, but privately owned & charter buses can use them too!

Continuing analogy bingo... Are bicycles like VFR, is that why they get to ignore traffic lights???:E