Alitalia Double Up!

[DEOne]

CNN are reporting that the Alitalia pilots will now be working almost twice as hard for much less loot. I know they're in dire straits, but what kind of deal would they have had before all of this, if they're now able to double their flying hours and still remain within the constraints of a regulated flight time limiting scheme?

CNN Report Here (http://edition.cnn.com/2004/BUSINESS/09/14/alitalia.ap/index.html).

[Brenoch]

They used to have one of the sweetest deals around... Very well paid, didn't work very hard, chaffeured cars to pick you up and drop you off before/after duty.. List goes on...

[DEOne]

It certainly does. I missed that and it makes the point even clearer. I'm not sure what your deal is, but mine is already for the max legal limit. Did these guys have an in-house deal limiting them to 450 hours per year? If so, it might not be too suprising that their company is in such a state of financial disrepair.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Guys - thanks for answering my question before I asked it!

I am currently working in Italy and have (oh woe is me) to depend on this airline for much of the transport I provide my customers. It beggars belief how this country holds itself together! I was wondering what the 'average' flying hrs per yr was for the developed world.
The employment laws here are arcane too - I am impressed that they've got round them and pushed the pilots so far!
Another slow step forward for Italian aviation!

[Brenoch]

I'm usually around 700-800/year. Sometimes slightly more sometimes slightly less..

[phoenix son]

I'm usually around 700-800/year. Sometimes slightly more sometimes slightly less..

That's about the way it works for the UK charter carriers...If you employ staff to fly 1/2 the max hours they could legally do, you're not exactly running an efficient operation are you? (Which presumably adds to Alitalia's financial woes?)

PHX

[tarjet fixated]

I FORD,
i also fly in Italy (not for AZ of course) and my average monthly flight time is 72 hrs,i know from a friend in AZ that he was making more money than me flying about 50hrs a month.
my question now is:will you guys fly twice as much(almost) per month for the same amount of money than before or just fly like everyone else with the present contract and therefore just be more productive for the company and make huge amounts of money as well?since with your present contract if you fly like we do you would be making thousands of euros more per month?

[Cyow]

Mr C.

You sound a bit miserable in Italy. If so,do yourself a favour (and Italians too), GET OUT. Just a suggestion, please don't take it the wrong way. By the way, the country holds itself together quite nicely,thanx.

For Mr. DeOne, I wouldn't be too proud to admit you fly to the max every month. That's exactly the reason our profession is going down the tubes. I'll be retiring in eighteen years and at the rate we're going, we will be no different than bus drivers or truck drivers by that time.

[flyblue]

I had a look in the first Italian newspaper, and it says pilots will go up to 900 duty hours from 770, and from 494 to 598 flight hours (»21%) on Long Haul and from 550 to 672 hours (»22%) on Medium Haul.

link to article on the "Il Corriere della Sera" (in Italian) (http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Economia/2004/09_Settembre/14/piloti_alitalia.shtml)

[2FLYEU]

450 HRS A MONTH!??.......

It's absolutely ridiculous! Normal flight time for the average pilot on the averge airline would be 700 to 850 hrs /year.

If they want to survive the will need to forget la dolce vita and fly like everybody else....

it's time to work hard guys....honestly.

[captcat]

I-FORD,

I am appalled by the lack of solidarity of your fellow pilots. Please accept mine in such a dire situation for all the hard workers in your company, who as usual are made to pay for the bad management. Hope you'll get through this as soon as possible.

[Cyow]

I-FORD.

I think your english is quite good. Personally I think it's just some people's way of putting down AZ.

To tarjet and phoenix,

All the sudden our industry is filled with "hard working" pilots. Someday when our lifestyles will be no different from that of truck drivers maybe we'll think about the good old days. Sure, we all need to work a little harder, but let's not blame our coleagues for the downfall of an airline.
Ciao.

[epsilonmiuraised]

I also fly in Italy (not for AZ of course) and my average monthly flight time is 72 hrs,i know from a friend in AZ that he was making more money than me flying about 50hrs a month. tarjet this statement is completely meaningless unless you specify what you and your alitalia friend fly, in wich position, how much do you earned for a 72 hours flight month and how much do your alitalia friend earned for a 50 hours flight month. In Italy airline pilots salary is usually much lower than in the rest of europe, including alitalia, a comparison of european major airlines was recently published showing that alitalia pilots salary are the lowest in europe, if you earn less than your alitalia friend I suspect that here the problem is that your company pays you peanuts not that alitalia pays too much.

[sodapop]

Isn't a shame how even a group of professionals (us pilots) can be fooled by the well-paid and politically-controlled media to think that Alitalia pilots are to blame for years of mismanagement.

Every company offers certain benefits to its workers and, yes, being state-run, Alitalia pilots had certain bennies like home pick-up that some of us who have worked for private airlines would never dream of having. That said, it is obvious in the deregulated world of aviation that all employees must tighten their belts and give certain concessions in order for the company to be competitive, especially with the low-costs guys around.

What I would really like to see, and surely won't, is a statement of accountability and responsibility by Alitalia current and ex-management for the absolutely ridiculus decision making throughout the past 10 years. It would also be nice to see them post numbers regarding their salaries and benefits and how they are willing to reduce them in order to participate in saving the flag carrier.

Too bad they don't have the balls to do so. In the meantime, we can prepare to sit back and be spoon fed propaganda in the news using meaningless numbers and jargon to fool not only the masses, but apparantly ourselves.

Here's one pilot in Italy hoping this thing gets worked out and our colleagues jobs saved and perhaps even more created in the process. Tanti auguri a tutti da un polentone.

Soda

[Roastbeef]

Can't really tell you this, but I'm working 320 hours per year! No nightstops on my roster as well.
My struggle is that my family is 1200 miles away and the weather at my homebase is fairly lousy. So I for example would be happy to fly 750 hours again with homebase next to my family. The problem is that the company couldn't find local guys (typerated of course!!) and they offered me the job. (Was made redundant just before).
I hope one day the company pays typerating to local guy with family, he would be in paradise.:cool:
To all the companies: Be sensible again, let your people work for they'r money but give them a resonable livestile as well! Don'n jump from one extrem to the next, it can work!!!

[Cap 56]

I agree that pilots may have to clock a bit more hours.

But rostering wise it is not always that evident to achieve that goal unless you make them fly 4 sectors a day and let them play cards for 2 or 3 hours between sector 2 and 3.

It’s not that simple

Alitalia pilots may have to accept very long days with relatively short block hours a day to achieve that goal.

[Roastbeef]

Cap 56

that's exatly what my previous company did. 12 hour duty days with 4-7 hours block. Very long days with huge brakes between the flights and about 80 block every month. But on the other hand we had 11 days off as well. This is resonable I think.

[tarjet fixated]

maybe someone from AZ will also enlighten us on the "ore credito" thing....

[Cap 56]

So if the next step could be that the max block a year is the same in every EU state then we are all an equal terms.

In the old days when flying was affected by weather and pilots had to wait for hours for improvement are back in town.

The difference is that now we are waiting for the passengers to show up according to the most efficient schedule planning in order to get those passengers anyway.

[Krueger]

So if the next step could be that the max block a year is the same in every EU state then we are all an equal terms.

Then you would have to look at paychecks, then cost of living, then...

I think it's not that easy to put everybody in equal terms with such a big difference between states: income, labour rules, taxes, etc.

Although I think we should thrive to have equal terms within EU, that should come with everything else attached to it.:ok:

[Roastbeef]

The same rules for everybody shouldn't actually be a big deal as all operators are under the eyes of JAA and following the JAR way of live anyway.........

But then the Authoroties of each Country must give away some controlforce, and I suggest this could be the big struggle;)

[tarjet fixated]

epsilon,
-first of all i don't want pilots to be paid less but maybe the other way around
-second i cannot tell you the numbers because of privacy issues(some people here know where i work...i'm sure you understand)
-third i'm not a slave pilot but a pilot that works for a private airline like many of us and who knows what efficiency means.
-forth i just try to get deep into an issue where i also feel involved since part of my taxes fill the pockets of a company in an unefficient way and if you don't mind i feel that tax payers money should be spent better.

[LVL CHG]

Will the displaced or redundant Alitalia mainline pilots flow down to Alitalia Express positions or will they hit the street? Is there an agreement between Alitalia and Alitalia Express?

Which Italian airlines would likely pick up furloughed Alitalia pilots - Air One or Volare?

[Jumbone]

I am in AZ from 1997 and never logged less than 650 p.y., it's just another false company report to the media in a clime of dispute between management and unions...:D

jumbone

[tarjet fixated]

epsilon,
once again you are talking to a pilot who IS on the pilots' side of the fence (how couldn't i be??).
my point is ,as you correctly said, the waste of public money..and huge amounts of public cash have already been lost in AZ.
We all know that not everyone in AZ was a money waster but you cannot argue the fact that up to today AZ has been an airline run like a medieval lobby where sons of captains used to get in and "normal" citizens had all access doors shut ( i personnally know a cpt. with 2 sons FO's in AZ),767 pilots getting extra cash for not having crew beds on board (does more money make you feel less tired?),crews that don't know what working on week ends means (people calling in sick for years on sat. and sun.),MD11 guys sitting at home for 1 year getting paid regularly even if their type was phased out,limusine pick ups for old contract holders....and more could be said.
it would all be ok dear epsilon if the tax payers didn't have to pay for all this and correct me if i'm wrong but in typical italian style even the innocent AZ pilots had to come to terms with all of the above when everything was just about to go down the drain.
I don't wish you go out of business,i just wish (as you said) that things could work as in civilized countries.

[tarjet fixated]

I FORD,
the 400 million euros are just to survive until february 2005 (more public money) and don't mean at all that AZ will be safe and sound with that amount (in fact it is a consequence of the new deal just signed that in itself doesn't mean things are gonna be great from now on either), AZ domestic competitors have to fight an uneven battle where they have to stay afloat without tax payers money (and some of them managed to take 11% of AZ pax this year alone despite the uneven competition) meaning that the italian market has never been fully open but still spoiled by politics connected to AZ (just look at the MXP-LIN issue) moreover a couple of AZ competitors carry about 6 million pax/year compared with AZ's 24million meaning they have 1/4 of AZ customers with 1/7 of AZ's fleet and of course 1/13 of the workforce...these are pure mathematics which by definition never lie.

[maddog62]

I am in AZ from 1997 and never logged less than 650 p.y., it's just another false company report to the media in a clime of dispute between management and unions...

Same for me, till I left in 2003...:ok:
I-Ford made it clear (but maybe only on the Italian Forum where I gave up...) that those 450 hrs mentioned by the media are an average that includes the MD-11 and 747 pilots sitting unwilling at home at almost 0 hrs.

the 400 million euros are just to survive until february 2005 (more public money)

It' s not public money. It's the bank's money and has to be returned...:ugh:

mad

[tarjet fixated]

epsilon,
1-so now AZ cpt.'s are gonna push their sons into meridiana?So it is definitely a medieval lobby....
2-so it's the management fault if MD11 guys are sitting at home being paid and the 747's have been phased out while Atlas guys fly the very same machine for AZ cargo?where are the conscious AZ pilot unions in all this?
3-AF is not a good example of fair practices since it's still state owned and France itself is a very protectionist country;LH on the other hand is a very good example of how a state owned company can restructure itself and even win market shares,not with state intervention but with good services and wise moves (like joining the star alliance at an early stage or buying into little jewels like AirDolomiti).
4-true some private airlines in italy (like elsewhere as well) are not in good shape...but this is the free market and AZ would be long time gone if it was to adhere to market rules instead of politics.talking about wet leases,it's a normal and civilized practice (AZ did it with Anset and still does it with Atlas) and in many cases it's much wiser to wet lease then to buy aircraft especially if you have to launch new routes where your aircraft is too big for the initial task, then if your market study was right you might be able to drop the wet leases and put up your own machines.Talking about connections between managemets and politics you are right...this is italy...and AZ is the biggest example having always been a huge pot full of voters and of positions to be filled according to had won the elections.Of course the right way to look for a sane inspiration is to look abroad...and while some private airlines have begun this process of looking behind the fence already a while ago AZ had to wait until it was about to collapse.

IFORD,
1-AZ had to give up slots because it used to be a monopolist and this is forbidden by EU law.
2-I fly for an airline that competes with AZ on many routes and i can assure you that the SLF are very happy to have a choice when they buy a ticket...and i can also tell you that they don't care much about the flag on the tail when it comes to punctuality,courtesy and service...maybe you were referring to football games when talking about the italian flag......
3-If you have problems with your handler with GPU's and stuff like that it is definitely not competiton's nor the free market's fault.
4-talking about people leaving a company to set up other ones i can only mention Emirates which was mainly set up by former BA guys...and i don't feel like condemning them for what they did...maybe you do?
5-Struggling competition?well maybe some are...but others are not,and actually they are doing pretty good (meridiana is doing fine and even renewing their fleet with airbus planes,Air One keeps adding aircraft and hiring pilots,AirDolomiti is switching to jets and keeps winning customer satisfaction and quality awards) and even if they don't have golden age privileges they are not payed peanuts at all.

Maddog,
the italian state is the warrant of those 400mln, meaning that if AZ is not able to pay it back they will have to come out from the usual pockets.....

[tarjet fixated]

I FORD,
don't know to which competitor you are referring to when you talk about meriging into the "new" AZ, there's only one which is in such a bad shape to consider such an option...but i don't see it as a wise merger...putting together 2 struggling players with huge debts doesn't seem a good move to me and i have the feeling that this is the very last time the tax payer is willing to pay for the dinosaur...unless the government changes and we go back to the old days...in which case i will migrate towards greener and more civilized pastures.
The fact that junior pilots make half of what an old purser makes tells us in brief the story of AZ...a complete nonsense which surely isn't anyonelse's fault but AZ's.

[maddog62]

The last rumours are about the creation of a stronger national airline merging into AZ some of the struggling "competitors" (at taxpayer's expense).

Bugger....I shouldn't have left so early, I would have loved to fly with tarjet...:E

mad

[tarjet fixated]

Mad,
you never know...in this business everything is possible so don't despair we might fly together one day!

[Check 6]

Alitalia pilots are on strike blocking the street at NAP Capodichino Airport in Naples as I type this.

:rolleyes:

[Henry VIII]

don't forget that the "private" airline to which you are refering to has already recived 80 millions just in march and now they are asking for another 90

Big difference... they look for money in the market, not in my pocket.

Henry

[epsilonmiuraised]

Alitalia pilots are on strike blocking the street they were not alitalia pilots, they were probably workers of atitech.
Big difference... they look for money in the market, not in my pocket yes I agree, but here the point is: let's not make pilots responsible for errors done by management and shareholders.

[tarjet fixated]

Well said epsilon...but let's not make te tax payer the one to be f@#ed every time someone mismanages something.
By the way ,the CEO has been talking about selecting a european partner in the past couple of days and it seemed that AF wasn't good enough anymore and he was eyeing LH as a better choice...maybe they should realize that they are not in the position to choose but maybe of being chosen!if they are lucky....

[Henry VIII]

let's not make pilots responsible for errors done by management and shareholders

I never wrote that pilots are the only responsible.
But I have (and many others have) a question :
where were pilots and pilots' unions in the past years ??? they cannot wake up today and declare "their fault" after years and years sharing decision with management.

See you

[Quod Boy]

Henry 8,has a point.

Why did the AZ pilots union,allow the "suits",to end up in this situation.?

Brought a bank person pax,back from London last week,had a chat in galley,and word is,AZ will have to merge,with another Euro carrier,but smaller,and leaner.It will survive.

EU membership,pivotal,to survival,unlike Swissair.

AZ overdid it,for too long,ignoring the signs,all around,in terms of productivity,etc etc etc.Great whilst it lasted.

NOT the fault of the pilots,but perhaps,the union,now should reflect,on agreeing with management for so long.

Choppy waters ahead,good luck to all,NOT their fault.

The suits,will emerge,unblemished,as usual.

Ciao.QB

[manintheback]

Looks like the taxpayers wont be better off anytime soon

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/bdb09c5e-0e8f-11d9-97d3-00000e2511c8.html

What a surprise NOT

[epsilonmiuraised]

link to an article about new alitalia pilots contract. the article is in italian but the table is selfexplaining: http://www.ilsole24ore.com/fc?cmd=art&artId=552124&chId=30&artType=Articolo&back=0

"pilota neoassunto" = young first officer
"anni" = years
"comandante" = captain
"stipendio" = basic pay
"indennità volo" = flight pay
"totale lordo" = total pay before taxes (33%)

fligth pay is calculated always for maximum monthly hours.

you can also download the contract here (http://www.anpac.it/popleggiarticolo.php3?id=12556)