Pilots vs Nav

[joe2812]

Ok... for those who havent seen my previous posts, i am desperate for the position of Pilot within the RAF, im apply for next year, failing that will apply after uni.

What i want to get at, is if (and i mean a big if) i don't get offered pilot, but get offered Nav (or WSO i think they are now?), should i take it? I want pilot, obviously, and ill take all the chances to fly anything within the RAF. So how do pilots look at Navs? Are they looked down upon as failed Pilots and spoken to in the according manner?

No offence intended, and i know that the role of the Nav is important etc, i just want to find a little more out about the attitudes towards the guys who do this job?

(For reference i have read the on-going topic about the RN guy who failed pilot but got offered Obs, so please don't point me there ;) )

Thanks in advance :)

[BEagle]

No stick, no vote!

And brush up on your punctuation before you apply! 'txtmsg' yoof-speak, for example 'i' instead of 'I' will be seen as indicative of lax standards.

[Oggin Aviator]

If it was me you were referring to I never failed Pilot, indeed I got a FJ recommend from CFS whilst a UAS stude after a trap. I was never offered Pilot as my Obs scores were higher, it was six months before a general election - doubts as to the job market after the election depending on who would get in etc etc so I took it. Dont regret it either.

Cheers

Oggin

[joe2812]

Oggin, sorry no, i wasn't referring to anyone in particular, just saying that i'd read the thread! Apologies for the misunderstanding!

BEagle, luckily im not applying by SMS this time round ;)

Thanks for responses so far,

[threepointonefour]

The last time I was involved in a Pilots v Navs footy match, we Navs won 7-1 (and the '1' was a spectacular own goal!).

From exp: I was a chopped pilot (Linton) and went FJ nav. Never regretted it from the fun/satisfaction point of view - I am still of the opinion that I had a better time as a FJ nav than I ever would have had poling something rather more benign. That said, I did always rather fancy SAR pilot ... Now I'm a little greyer, the FJ world is less appealing to me, but to the young 'uns it's still the coolest thing ever.

The biggest argument against going nav (WSO - pah!) is that it's a dying branch. Second to that is that there are bugger all equivalent jobs outside the RAF, so you need to find something else to do.

And just to quash any ability banter, I once saw a fifties US video at AMTW that showed a monkey learning to fly. Granted, it's nads were attached to electrodes, and it got a shock every time it let the 'ac' crash, but it soon got the hang of S & L flight!! (As a nav who's both trained and chopped pilots, I see great merit in this approach, although I'm sure the girls would object !!!).

Good luck with whatever you do. Talk to people like me, and things were better 'in our day'; whichever route you choose, you'll have a bucket load of fun while it's your day.

[Tarnished]

Joe

Look to the future young man. Typhoon - single seat, F-35 - single seat. Jags on the way out, Harrier on the way out albeit more slowly, F-3 on the way out, leaving GR4 the only platform requiring the skills of a WSO/nav/ballast to keep it true. Oh you could plump for FOAS but that might not have any seats at all.

No, I'm affraid it has to be single seat or nothing, therefore to answer your question - stick to your guns and tell them pilot or bust.

The aptitude testing is pretty good, if you fail it you can rest assured that you would probably have been washed out at some point in the training system, or at the very least have a horrible time going through because it is all too hard.

You might accept nav on the hope of getting a fast jet recommend out of training to get into the few Tornado back seats that will be around and maybe convert to pilot farther down the line - but remember there are a lot of other platforms that require a nav, I'm assuming you have already seen the light and are a fast jet convert.

There is a whole thread out there I'm sure on the single seat versus twin seat argument, but I think the fleets of the future speak volumes:

Pilot it has to be.

VR

T

[Impiger]

Beags how could you?

I seem to remember having plenty of votes when we flew together - sure I couldn't fly the damn thing but I sure as hell knew how to use it.

Now as for the essence of this thread........ If our young wannabee has the motor skills to be a pilot then he should hold out for the job. If he hasn't but does possess the wit, brains and rugged good looks to make it as a navigator well far better to be at the top of that tree than at the bottom of the nose gunner dung heap!

[BEagle]

Hmm - and blundering about at low level in Das Reich during Bold Gauntlet, when I asked a certain nav if he knew where we were, I received the answer "No idea, mate!".... ;)
19 May 1983, XV478 - check your logbook!

Even the nav kit in one of my little puddlejumpers doesn't do that - neither, I guess does the TypHoon's!

And who couldn't find that Jindi' on 22 Jul 1982 even when the photo chase told you where to aim the elstrobes? Spookily enough that was in XV478 as well - as was the last trip I ever did with you on 16 Jun 1983.......

But it was quite fun - some of the time! Particularly with guys like you in the back seat!!

[santiago15]

J2812,

The answer to your question my old friend can only come from you. Could you sit in the back of a jet everday and look at the pilot in front of you without thinking "I wonder if I could've done that?"

Lots of navs love their jobs and wouldn't swap their time in the RAF for anything. Others have their enjoyment tainted every now and then with thoughts of "What if.........?" Which would you be?

Best of luck, and remember life is not a rehearsal.

S15

[16 blades]

There's still a requirement for Navs on the Herc K fleet - lots of new toys to play with now. And we'll need them for a while, since the K looks set to outlast the J. The scottish aircraft will also require Navs - I've never heard a talking GPS complain about THAT job - only chance for a Nav to become a Captain, too.

So, there will be Nav jobs around for a while yet. Don't do the typical wannabe thing and get tunnel vision-ed on FJ - you'll have a scream whatever type you end up on, and in whatever seat. If you're being really forward-thinking though, pilot is now the only seat that'll give you good (or any) prospects of a civ air job when you leave.

Best of luck!

16B

ps if pilots looked down on their navs with anything approaching contempt, they would find themselves up sh1t creek without propulsion fairly rapidly. We work as crews and each member of that crew is a valued professional and treated as such.

......unless they're a complete tw@t, in which case they're treated as such.......!!!!

[Tarnished]

Whole-heartedly agree with 16B in that anyone in a particular fleet or force that looks upon their fellow crewmembers as anything other than equals is indeed at wat!

However, it remains a fact of life that the single seat brotherhood does and always will be a special breed. With more computing power coming into cockpits and into flight control systems it does not have the same cudos it had when I were a lad or BEagle were an Eaglet.

It should be said that if you want to fly in Her Majesties Air Force, and you manage to convince the selection board you are worthy of a massive investment of tax payers money then whatever aircraft, role and crewstation you end up in you will have one of the most enjoyable careers imaginable.

Go for it.

T

[Cougar]

16 blades,
I don't know where you get this stuff from, or whether you are 1) trying to wind someone up or 2) fishing, but how on earth will a 30+ year old airframe outlast a brand new airframe?

Not getting into J v K (or H over here) debate again but broad brush comments like yours just further inflame the situation. Just get on with the job. No need to have a stab.

[Background Noise]

Go for pilot.

If you don't pass, don't accept anything else and apply later. Aptitude scores do change with age and you might find that you pass later. If you still don't make it by the age limit but make nav, you've got to decide whether it's mil flying you want (and go nav) or pilotting (and go commercial). Either way, join the UAS at university and fly.

I've flown single seat, multi crew, trained pilots and trained navs. I agree with the equal crew comments but as a pilot you have the chance to fly anything. Jobs for navs are more limited and dwindling steadily.

And, as has been pointed out, when the next random 'drawdown' or knee jerk reaction comes along, pilot is an exportable trade.

Go for pilot.

[threepointonefour]

The game you play when holding out for pilot simply depends on your attitude to risk and your ability to accept something else in the meantime.

By risk, I mean that you put yourself at the mercy of RAF recruiting ... words like sporadic, disorganised, short-sighted, clueless all spring to mind with this topic. They may, or may not, have an opening for you when you go back. If you do indeed get to go back. If I was in your shoes, I'd probably take the risk.

On the subject of aptitude tests, I did them twice. Once at 15 for a 6th Form Scholarship and again when I went back for my medical at 18 - the second time was to compare the old mechanical system with a new computer based test. I later found out that my pilot aptitude scores were the as high as they'd ever seen on both systems. I went to Linton (wasn't allowed to go to EFTS) and was the first to be chopped off the course. Sadly, I hadn't matured enough to cope with the phenomenally hard time I was given by one of the :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: instructors and was chopped. Still, learnt my lesson and sailed through Nav training.

My point really is this; if you do go straight to nav training (barring one twisted example from the FJ world) you won't have another flying trade to fall back on. Even though WSOs include other aircrew trades these days, you won't get the chance to re-role as an 'AEO' WSO.

You only get one chance at this life ...

[pr00ne]

In the early days of the mighty TOOM, especially in RAFG, there was much single seat vs two seat banter as a lot of the old and bold, and some less old, were ex Hunter FGA9/FR10 guys with a sprinkling of Lightning jocks thrown in.

A constant crew room silencing riposte from these guys to our new navs was along the lines of;

" I've got 4000 hours without a navigator, how many have you got without a pilot?"


Fun back then but lets face it, the future is going to be a mix of single seat and no seat.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Just do what you want to do. Most nav's I've meet love their job and most pilots I know love their job. You just need to think which you'll like. Good luck with the decision though. You won't regret being aircrew though regardless of your decision.

[flyboy007]

If they do spin the old "take nav now and cross over in a couple of years", don't believe a word of it. They will say anything to get you in but rest assured, once they have you their interest in cross training you dwindles rapidly! Imagine our surprise.

[Wigan Warrior]

Military fast jet Navigators (Weapon System Operators / Officers) are a dying breed and will be extinct within 10 - 15years.
The traditional art of navigation (map / stop watch) is a dying art, and most new aircraft designs don’t lend themselves particularly well to this type of navigation.
Most current and all new aircraft possess very accurate systems, which can map and follow the terrain over which they fly. These systems accurately indicate where the aircraft is in relation to waypoints (landmarks / points of interest), how long it will take to get to the next waypiont, if they are early / late and so on.
If you are fortunate enough to be selected for Pilot then there should be no doubt in your mind. If there is, then you shouldn’t bother, bear in mind that not all candidates selected for pilot training end up as fast jet pilots – don’t know the exact figures, but I’d guess that around only 1 in 4 pilot candidates that start IOT at Cranwell end up as fast jet pilots.
If you are selected for Navigator, you must be just as committed if you wish to succeed. It isn’t as easy as saying,
“OK, I’ll be a Nav then.”… And 2 weeks later you are operational in the back seat of a fast jet (sometimes Nav training can take upto 3 weeks!). You may fail the Nav course, then what would you do? Is it just the flying in jets that attracts you? First and foremost you will be a RAF Officer (assuming you pass IOT). If you fail the Nav course you may end up being offered a Fighter Controller / AWACS / Radar operator / ATC or ADMIN job. You need firstly to be committed to joining the armed forces, and all that goes with that territory, including being posted to somewhere other than fastjetsville.

In answer to you question:
“….So how do pilots look at Navs?…..”
Generally through rear viewing mirrors…. And nearly always wishing they had their weight in ordnance / fuel instead!

[GodisMyCopilot]

I failed my nav apitude tests but passed my pilot ones! must must make me a co-ordinated thicko!

[joe2812]

Well I want to be a pilot obviously, I come from a long line of RAF service-peeps in my family but i'll be the first a) to go for aircrew or b) to even hold a commission.

I've always wanted to fly and the civvie world just doesn't appeal. I'll fly anything, FJ, ME or rotary... failing that i still want to fly, i just assumed Nav would be the next choice? I know fighter controller and all the other various jobs are around, but failing pilot, i think it'd be Nav.

Replies have been mixed so far I think, I can tell the pilots from the navs that's for sure! Thanks very much, most informative. :ok:

[santiago15]

"I can tell the pilots from the navs that's for sure!"

I hope you couldn't with my reply. Still think the answer can only come from you.

In the aircrew world we tend to be obsessed with being above others. I, for example, would HATE to be a doctor or a lawyer Does that make me 'better' than every doctor or lawyer in the country?

If you join the RAF as a nav you will be bantered throughout your career by pilots. However, from time to time you will meet a pilot who will banter you with a malicious undertone: a genuine belief that he/she is better than you. Purely because they have wings and you have a brevet. That's part and parcel i'm afraid. But who's better than who?

Think long and hard about what you want to do - not how others will perceive you.

S15

[joe2812]

No no, thats not what I meant, what people think of me personally wouldnt affect my choices, it was mainly out of curiosity to see what the pilots think of the navs.

I appreciate the doctors and solicitors are better at their job, as are navs and pilots etc, but failing pilot I would want nav, and was just curious to see how they are viewed by the rest.

[16 blades]

As I already alluded to, there will be nav jobs for a while yet. Any of the 'i'd rather have their weight in fuel' type comments are obviously from FJ mates, undoubtably single seat!

Cougar Wrote:

"I don't know where you get this stuff from, or whether you are 1) trying to wind someone up or 2) fishing, but how on earth will a 30+ year old airframe outlast a brand new airframe? "

Our K's latest projected OSD is now around 2020-ish, airframe age is irrelevant - it's fatigue that counts. This is assuming we can get them re-winged. The J has cost us a fortune, will cost us more, and hasn't delivered what it promised and probably never will. Some of it's problems relate specifically to the 2-man flight deck in the tactical environment - no amount of kit can make up for a living, breathing, thinking individual with a pair of Mk1 eyeballs out the Mk1 window, especially not in the 'sharper end' of the tactical environment.

Those who say the future is 'single seat or no seat' are sadly deluding themselves - hence nav jobs for a long time to come. We are short of Navs at the moment - and will probably be short of pilots in 2-3 yrs. Plenty of Navs crossed over last time that happened.

At the end of the day, if it turns out not to be the job for you, PVR.

Good luck deciding!

16B (not a nav)

[Cougar]

16 blades wrote: "The J has cost us a fortune, will cost us more, and hasn't delivered what it promised and probably never will. Some of it's problems relate specifically to the 2-man flight deck in the tactical environment - no amount of kit can make up for a living, breathing, thinking individual with a pair of Mk1 eyeballs out the Mk1 window, especially not in the 'sharper end' of the tactical environment."

16 blades ,

You obviously have very little working knowledge of the J, as you are coming up with info that is ill informed. Maybe the RAF J's are as you speak, i cannot vouch for that, however other operators in the world (yes there are other operators besides the RAF) are using the J in 2 person tac roles quite happily and successfully. I am not willing to go into details. As it is, i will leave you to your supposed 'sharper end' of the tac environment.

[Pontius Navigator]

<<If you fail the Nav course you may end up being offered a Fighter Controller / AWACS / Radar operator / ATC or ADMIN job. >>

In my limited experience (40 years) I think this pecking order is most unlikely. Fighter Controller and ATC are both high skill aptitude jobs. If you fail pilot or nav you have usually failed for lack of aptitude. OK, I know one chopped pilot/ATC but he actually got his wings first but the pilot slots evaporated.

AWACS or Radar Operator are just variations of FC so don't count. That leave Admin. Now what ever we say, the Admin guys usually have some smarts.

Where my chopped navs went was Supply, Police and Regiment. The last two are naturals for chopped aircrew (young ones that is) cause the are both largely open air jobs for fit young men.

[OBNO]

Joe,

If you want to be a Pilot, DO NOT give Recruiting the slightest "sniff" that you would accept Nav as a second choice or as a back up ( I know from experience!). If you do they will rub their hands with glee and the next thing you know you will discussing your new career as a Nav. Plenty of folks apply for Pilot, but not many apply to be a Nav. If you are not accepted for Pilot Training you can come back another day and apply for Nav if you so decide. Also if you are unsuccesful the first time for Pilot apply again, I know plenty who took a couple of applications before finally being accepted.

Finally, you will have a good time if selected for either path ( I eventually got to do both), however as has been mentioned already the role of the navigator is diminishing all the time ( some would argue the same could be said for pilot!). Most importantly there are no jobs for Navigators in the big wide world. Yes, I know you can still have a long and worthwhile career in the Military as a Nav, but many peoples ideals, priorities and aspirations change over 16-20 years.

Good Luck

[Mr C Hinecap]

Pontius - you are having a laugh, aren't you? RAFP an open-air job for an Officer? The RAFP Officers do the admin support for their lads - and that is from my mates who have done the job!

Don't worry about pilots looking down on navs - they all look down on all us blunt types anyway!:suspect: