IR before CPL

[Gillespie]

What do you guys reckon about completing the IR before CPL? the way I see is that if you do it this way you are exempt from the 10 hours instrument flying required for the CPL meaning you can do a 15 hour course instead of 25? It does mean you have to do an extra 5 hours on the IR but these can be done in a sim (CPL has to be in the air).

It also means you have to compete a multi before the IR but it still works out cheaper

[High Wing Drifter]

I'm certainly seriously considering it. I have the hours to start the multi now. Although I will have 100p1 very soon too.

Many have advised against it. I have an IMC and really, I cannot see why, specifically, doing the IR first is a bad idea.

[Mordacai]

Cheaper if it all goes to plan, but a lot harder.

It depends on you, and your performance. I would say its a bit of a gamble to be honest, if you get bogged down in the IR it will cost you an absolute ruddy fortune!!!

[High Wing Drifter]

On the flip side, better find out you're not upto it before coughing up for the CPL?

[FlyingForFun]

In theory, you are quite right about the minimum times. In practice, some people seem to think that because you don't have as much experience, the IR will take you longer and cost your more. I haven't done my IR yet, so I can't really say.... but I figure there must be a reason why most people do the CPL first.

The other thing to consider is that the CPL can be used without the IR to earn you money (e.g. as an instructor), so doing the CPL first may make more sense if you don't have all the money for the CPL/IR saved up in advance.

FFF
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[LFS]

all in all the cost difference is absolutley minimal between the two options. You need to assess whether you would feel up to the IR first as it is the more challenging of the two courses, or whether you would be better off completing the CPL first improving your overall flying skills and introducing you to the twin. There is a reason the majority of people do the CPL then the IR as it is the most logical way of completing the courses. Beware of trying to do things differently to save a couple of pounds as more often than not it can end up costing you more.

[Mordacai]

Many have advised against it. I have an IMC and really, I cannot see why, specifically, doing the IR first is a bad idea.

Well it's entirely up to you, but as you asked for the advice, I would say that there is a HUGE gulf between the IMC rating and the IR. The CPL course will improve your overall flying, your awareness, airmanship, captaincy etc. etc. You will be MUCH better prepared to tackle the IR course after completing the CPL.


On the flip side, better find out you're not upto it before coughing up for the CPL?


That makes no sense at all - why cough up £12 - £15,000 for a multi IR to see if you are up to the CPL (which costs about £5000)???

M

[Megaton]

Chap at Atlantic tried it last year and didn't work for him. CPL equates to A levels with the IR at degree level. Would you even consider doing degree before A levels? It won't save you money. It will, in fact, cost you because you will have less airmanship, capacity, knowledge, skills and experience and retraining at IR level is much more expensive than at CPL. Do a search for similar subject titles.

[High Wing Drifter]

all in all the cost difference is absolutley minimal between the two options.
Yes it does seem to be so. And so far seems to be the best argument for not complicating matters.

I would say that there is a HUGE gulf between the IMC rating and the IR.
Apart from the the twin/complex handling aspects the IMC seems to cover the vast majority fo the IR syllabus.

That makes no sense at all - why cough up £12 - £15,000 for a multi IR to see if you are up to the CPL (which costs about £5000)???
I do my CPL first as it is easier. If as everybody says the IR is tough, when am I likely to find out? 5 hrs in? 15hrs? Nope, I reckon 170A time is when it sinks home. If I decide to bail out then, then that is 6K less wasted on CPL. Am I likely to have trouble with the CPL to save my money on the IR? Um...nope.

[NineEighteen]

Gillespie,

See ME/IR before CPL?? (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127070) and IR before CPL - Is it wise? (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=103702).

Good luck!
0918

[Mordacai]

I do my CPL first as it is easier. If as everybody says the IR is tough, when am I likely to find out? 5 hrs in? 15hrs? Nope, I reckon 170A time is when it sinks home. If I decide to bail out then, then that is 6K less wasted on CPL. Am I likely to have trouble with the CPL to save my money on the IR? Um...nope.

Yeah thats a good point in theory, the trouble is people dont bail out unless they completely run out of money. Its human nature to keep on striving, most people are 'soooo close to passing, just a few more hours should do it', or 'I've come this far I cant give up now'.

Running out of money is a real danger, if you fail or partial it's nearly £500 for a partial re-test, nearly £700 for a full re-test, plus aircraft hire, re-training requirements, new 170a etc. But can you put your hand on your heart and say you would sack it after already paying 12 grand?


Apart from the the twin/complex handling aspects the IMC seems to cover the vast majority fo the IR syllabus.

It looks like it on paper doesn't it? but maybe ask yourself why it's a 55 hour course as apposed to 15?

Anyway, good luck whichever way you decide to go
:ok:

M

[High Wing Drifter]

Mordacai,

It looks like it on paper doesn't it? but maybe ask yourself why it's a 55 hour course as apposed to 15?

With regard to the difficulty of the IR. I have just realised what the key issue that I completely failed to consider is...140kts....DUH!

[Port Strobe]

This actually raises a good point which I thought of a few weeks ago. I'm currently doing my IMC & noticed that it does indeed cover most of the IR syllabus and when I was reviewing the tolerances for the flight test noticed that they're a good bit tighter, but I thought to myself though why on Earth is the IR course 55hrs when the IMC is only 15hrs & yet they cover much of the same ground? I do realise there is a great deal of naivety in this and of course there is good reason behind this but could someone who's perhaps done the IMC then progressed to the IR maybe explain what they felt the major differences & difficulties were? Is it really just an extended exercise in achieving more precision and awareness or is there more to it? I'm finding my intro to IF very challenging at times, just keeping the scan up at times is difficult when you're side tracked with other things & is one small but crucial difference in both training & experince levels I suppose between the 2 licenses. I'd appreciate any thoughts/experience, thanks.

[Luke SkyToddler]

The IMC rating does cover the 'instrument flying' part of the syllabus. What it doesn't teach you, is the skill of doing that same instrument flying in busy terminal airspace, with airliners breathing down your neck and controllers barking orders at you 19 to the dozen, trying to write your clearance for the go-round out with one hand while simultaneously carrying out emergency drills, while attempting to hand fly a twin with a simulated engine failure down an ILS to minima, all to a level of 1/4 ball half-scale-deflection JAA-mandated accuracy that Chuck Yeager himself would struggle to achieve :( :( :(

[Mordacai]

Yeah, thats about it! Well put.

Gee, you have bought the memories flooding back!:sad: :oh:

[rotatrim]

Luke Skytoddler's description is spot on - absulutely NO mercy is shown towards the IR candidate!

[englishal]

Here's a contaversial idea.....

Go and get an FAA IR, and JAA CPL. Fly around IFR in the US and in the UK on your IMC rating, and get some experience. Then a while down the road, when you're comfortable flying IFR in a SE and ME, take the JAA conversion.......You'll be in a much better position to pass, more IFR experience, a better pilot, and MAY save some money (especially when you consider a re-test is going to cost you about a grand)......

[carbonfibre]

I think its been well said, doing the CPL before the IR is not the easy route by any means, the CPL standard is still challenging in its own way.

While doing my CPL and IR training, i saw a lot of people doing the IR first and really struggle to get through, and after generally got a partial on the CPL skills test too, I have found its easier to switch from visual to Instruments than the other way around, and a lot of these students failed to keep there head out of the instrument panel while on test.

In the time i was training i saw one full pass at IR then CPL out of about ten, and they all said they would if had the opportunity do the CPL then the IR. In allmost said it cost them an extra 2-3 k on there IR training

Hope this helps
:ok:

[Angel´s One Fife]

CPL is the harder of the two test. The IR can be a bit challenging but it can even be a piece of piss.

Luke Skytoddler

What was so difficult about doing the ILS Aymmetric? Easiest of all the possible approaches. If you had the aircraft trimmed then it should have been no deal at all. Only time the approach is tricky on an IR is if you are one of those folks that try to fly an NDB asymmetric stepping down rather than flying the glidepath from a VDP.

I would however do the CPL first and get the visual flying out of the way and then do the IR. However if you failed the CPL for multi-handling then move onto the IR and do the CPL a few hours later when you have had a few more flights.

[EGBKFLYER]

Having weighed up various pros and cons and talked to a number of contacts from airline pilots to other students, I plumped for doing my IR before CPL.

I can happily report that I found it to be no particular issue, though I should point out that I had done a multi rating previously, so the aircraft/ increased speed wasn't all new. I had an IMC rating when I started, but little instrument time (about 20h).

I would say that if you are a competent, confident PPL, who has found an IMC and complex type flying reasonably straight-forward, IR first is worth thinking about. If you haven't done at least single complex or IMC training, I agree with previous posts that say you will find the learning curve a bit steep, given the time and other pressures during the IR.

I currently in the middle of my 15 hour CPL course, and am finding it quite relaxed after the IR flying, though it's definitely not to be taken lightly and is challenging in its own way. The 'head in cockpit' syndrome is showing itself now and again, but a good instructor will sort that out (and is in my case!)

Money saved? About £1000 overall, but I've chosen to spend it on getting a multi CPL (because I like twin flying mainly).

I think that with this question, as with a lot of others in training, you need to have a good understanding of how you work and what your overall aim is. After that, pay your money and take your choice.

If anyone wants more info/ details, PM me...